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58 Responses

  1. Grace. For such a sinner as am I…

    excellent, Michael, just excellent

  2. Michael says:

    Thank you, G!

  3. mike says:

    ‘Antinomian’ hogwash. The real reason that the modern western ‘church’ is the way it is.

  4. Michael says:

    On the contrary….it’s only when the law has done it’s work that I see the depths of my own depravity…and thus recognize my need for a Savior and the grace of God.

    The church is in trouble because we don’t want to fully embrace the first step, so we lose the second.

  5. Paige says:

    “I applied for the same deal”.

    Amen. Absolutely. My ONLY hope.

    What a CRAZY story about Lot….. contrary as all heck.

  6. Michael says:


    It’s a sure hope, my friend.

  7. Required says:

    You’re calling Peter, writing in the NT, a liar. You’re calling the NT a lie.

  8. Michael says:


    Your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.
    I affirm Peter’s words…Lot was a righteous man.
    By faith, not by works.

  9. Michael says:

    The disconnect is that we want to believe that only “good” people are called righteous by God.
    The reality is that none of us are “good”, not one….and the only qualification for being saved is to understand you’re not qualified.

  10. Paige says:

    Michael, #9 comment…… amen. None. Unqualified. Now, if I could only remember that on a constant basis…..oh, duh, God, via life, seems to be bent on reminding me. I may fully get it someday!

  11. Michael says:


    Just remember that as you remind yourself that you’re not qualified, that Jesus has made you completely qualified.
    You have been counted righteous in Him and are you’re deeply loved…and you will get home before dark.

  12. Jim says:

    Ok-I agree with the meaning of the post completely. Totally. With rejoicing.

    But we aren’t taking Lot at his word here. God, through Moses said, “he did not know”.

  13. Michael says:


    I would have to study the passage in greater detail…because I’ve never been unaware of getting smashed and I’ve really never been unaware that I was having sex.

  14. filbertz says:

    Lot is a perplexing character, deeply flawed. The NT commentary on his life seems so contrary to the OT person that it appears two different Lots. That’s why grace is grace, I suppose, and salvation must be a gift.

  15. Jim says:


    Not that you’re aware of 🙂

    Back in the day, there were nights where the last thing I remember was sitting down to do shots.

  16. Michael says:

    “Not that you’re aware of :)”

    You have a point there… 🙂

  17. Michael says:


    I don’t find him perplexing at all…what God says about me and what the people who know me say are two different things.
    And they don’t know the half of it…

  18. Steve Wright says:

    I’m with Jim in affirming the message of the post…with the one caveat

    Back in high school 2 friends and I “saved” a 9th grade girl who was very drunk and about to get taken advantage of by the older guy who took her on the date. She did not remember a thing the next day. The time with the guy, the excessive vomiting, none of it.

    I think we do have to stay with the Scripture here that Lot was so drunk that he did not know what happened. “He did not know when she lay down or when she arose.” (repeated for each daughter)

  19. Michael says:

    I’ll concede that point…though I have my doubts.
    That still doesn’t make Lot blameless…

  20. JTK says:

    So glad He uses the Charles Bowden’s of the world….

  21. Steve Wright says:

    This is wiki…but spot on. I don’t want to take away from the main message of the TGIF, like I said it is spot on and thinking of Lot as a righteous man is a fascinating message….. but to me this detail is also a key in the Lot story – and it does match all the science and plenty of personal experience for many of us….(plenty of brownouts, and more than a couple of black)
    Blackouts can generally be divided into 2 categories, “en bloc” blackouts and “fragmentary” blackouts. En bloc blackouts are classified by the inability to later recall any memories from the intoxication period, even when prompted. These blackouts are characterized also by the ability to easily recall things that have occurred within the last 2 minutes, yet inability to recall anything prior to this period. As such, a person experiencing an en bloc blackout may not appear to be doing so, as they can carry on conversations or even manage to accomplish difficult feats. It is difficult to determine the end of this type of blackout as sleep typically occurs before they end. Fragmentary blackouts are characterized by the ability to recall certain events from an intoxicated period, yet be unaware that other memories are missing until reminded of the existence of these ‘gaps’ in memory. Research indicates that such fragmentary blackouts, also known as brownouts, are far more common than en bloc blackouts

  22. Jim says:

    I consider Lot’s blackout a mercy. The ladies in Lot’s life would drive one to drink….

  23. Michael says:

    Let’s reframe this.
    Lot got bombed and woke up having had sex with his own kids, though he was too drunk to recall doing so.
    He’s still called righteous.
    There’s the point.

    Should I lose my way and find myself having unknowingly entertained two ladies in a drunken stupor, I’m calling Jim and Steve, followed by my doctor.

  24. Mark says:

    Regardless of Lots active participation in the incest he was still an active participant in the drunkenness. No excuses. Lot was declared righteous by no accord of his own behavior. By faith alone. Thank God for such mercy or we are all doomed. My sins ( and I’m sure many of yours) make Lot look like a choir boy. We are called to confess and repent. Acknowledge our sin and try ( not succeed mind u) to live a righteous life. That’s the Gospel road. Thank God Jesus walked it ahead of us!

  25. Jim says:

    Call Steve. I’d yell at you for getting hammered.

    Sorry Michael-I didn’t mean to muddy the message of your post.

  26. Michael says:


    I appreciate it, actually.
    I’ve got to start being more careful instead of knocking these out in five minutes because I get inspired…

  27. Jim says:

    I still wanna know why Jesus bore the sins of the lost 🙂

  28. Muff Potter says:

    From the main body of the post:

    Peter infers that it was the sexual sins of Sodom, the ones that will be judged by fire, that disturbed righteous Lot so much.

    And yet when we read Ezekiel 16:49-50, there isn’t word one about the ‘sexual sins’ of Sodom but rather, the focus is on the indifference of prosperous ease and wanting more in the face of those who suffer want and have nothing.

  29. Steve Wright says:

    “they committed abomination before me” is pretty clear given everyone reading Ezekiel and the Sodom reference also knew the story from Genesis and what it is God calls “an abomination”

    The point is that in prosperous nations like Sodom, the free time available can be used to help the poor and needy or used for selfish sexual pursuits.One can get prideful or give thanks (and service) to the Lord.

    In my time in India, in the poorest villages, the people literally had not heard of homosexuality – there was not one incident of it in the village – because life was an exhaustion just trying to scrape up enough to survive. I asked my native friends if there was no homosexuality in India?

    The answer was, oh it is found often among the higher castes and the wealthy – but never in the slums and poor villages.

    Sin of sodom

  30. Muff Potter says:

    Steve, I respect you a great deal as Pastor and a fellow traveler but I think you’d be hard pressed to provide enough empirical data to prove that prosperous ease always leads to homosexuality, or that it is non-existent in the down strata of the third world. We’ll just have to agree to disagree amiably.

  31. Nonnie says:

    I lived next to and worked in the barrios of Manila…the poorest of the poor, and there was a lot of homosexuality, cross dressing, etc.

    I don’t doubt what Steve’s experience is, but this was mine.

  32. Steve Wright says:

    Well…I think there is a reason why, in this country, 3-4 generations ago when our great-grandparents (at least mine) had to work hard from sun-up to sundown, went to bed exhausted to awake and do it again, there was far less homosexuality (not to mention activism) found in this nation…

    Idleness of time is a key point, coupled with prosperity, in that Ezekiel passage

  33. Babylon's Dread says:

    Steve you always have a keen eye. That is a gift that you bring.

  34. Babylon's Dread says:

    Wedding day today. I will join Jesus at the wedding party. It will be a blast. I already know they won’t run out of wine so there will be no pressure. Just hope I can add to the joy.

    Wherever the judeo-christian influence tries to win by controlling people we run into the most atheism, the most lawlessness, the most apostasy, the most hatred of religion.

    Freedom, justice, grace and the simple Gospel of the kingdom will serve us better.

  35. Babylon's Dread says:

    Oh and Michael,

    I often don’t have much to say on these posts. Not much needs saying usually. Today is the same. Your lament and eulogy of Bowden is great stuff…

  36. mike says:

    Jude 1:4 KJV

    For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

  37. Michael says:


    How kind….we are to assume that I am one of those men, I take it.
    This is typical of people like you, who are unable to deal with the text and make evil assumptions about the brethren.
    Your sin of slander is proof of the darkness of the moralists heart.
    I didn’t defend or excuse Lot’s actions…simply pointed out that God covered them.
    As He will your slander if you repent.

  38. Michael says:


    Thank you…I have been grief stricken all week and am just now starting to get my bearings.
    The only way I know how to do so is to write about it.

  39. Michael,
    your assumption that I was ‘aiming’ at you specifically would be wrong. you’re way too small a target.

    my intention was to address the theology that encourages people that sin is not the issue and that believers are immune to the need to bring their lives into ‘conformity with Christ’ by the power of the Holy Spirit by repentance of sin and walking in righteousness.

    I will not engage your name calling, ad hominem attacks. you don’t play fair or by any code of civility towards those who disagree with you, as far as I can see and has been my experience.

  40. Muff Potter says:

    Michael wrote @ # 37:

    “Your sin of slander is proof of the darkness of the moralists heart.”

    Mike would do well to read Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness. In it he would soon discover that morality is way more complex that just one proof-text from Jude’s Epistle.

  41. Michael says:


    No one here is professing what you claim to be protesting.
    We see in the text that Lot was counted righteous despite gross sin.
    Deal with that…
    You already claimed the article was antinomian hogwash…I say it’s biblical exposition.
    Answer the text if you think I’m in error.

  42. Michael,
    I’ve tried in the past to give reasoned responses and discuss alternative views to yours here on the PP and have been met every time with not careful, considerate, civil discussion… but exactly what I have received here today so far.

    as I said, I will not engage you because you don’t play fair or by any standards of civility that I can see or have experienced.

    if an argument was what you were hoping for, you won’t be getting it from me today. thanks for allowing me to comment, though. I appreciate the opportunity.

  43. Michael says:

    Mike ,

    You’re a hoot.
    You came out blasting at the top of the thread and have followed up be refusing to engage anything said since.
    You have been allowed to post…and yet you claim that I’m unfair.
    How so?
    You won’t interact from here on because you can’t…you stuck your foot in it, judged poorly, and are now too proud to start over.
    Have a lovely day.

  44. Linda Pappas says:

    How did Lot sin. He was raped by his daughters in that he did not make a decision to engage sexually with them with a clear mind. Yes, he did decide to drink and as he drank, he was encouraged to drink so much that he no longer had control over his faculties. Doubt seriously if he even remember having sex with them.

    I would think he would have been grieved over losing his wife and even perhaps putting his family in this position in the first place. He did recognize the “strangers” that came into Sodom and immediately bid them to take refuge and hospitality in his home. He sought to protect them not realizing that they being who they were, he had nothing to fear. Culturally speaking, he offered his own daughters up to those who wanted to violated these guests, in their place.

    Date Rape is not a sin. Choosing to have a drink or two is not sin, although it can and does leave one at an disadvantage when others may be wanting to do harm to them.

    Totally agree with Steve Wrights #21 on blackouts.

    Mike and Brandy, I understood what you were trying to say and took no offense, but thought some might not hear it as you phrased it in the way that you did.

    “my intention was to address the theology that encourages people that sin is not the issue and that believers are immune to the need to bring their lives into ‘conformity with Christ’ by the power of the Holy Spirit by repentance of sin and walking in righteousness.”

    I still don’t understand how it is that Lot sin, though. Was he a habitual drunkard or did he just get drunk, not intending to do so. I don’t think scriptures tells us that he was, nor does it say that he sinned over this.

  45. Michael says:


    The story of Lot from start to finish is a testimony of the grace of God.
    Peter tells us that Lot was tormented by what he saw in Sodom.
    He doesn’t explain why he refused to leave and had to be physically removed by angels to get him out.
    The story in the cave doesn’t say that the daughters took a funnel and forced wine down the old boys throat.
    I was a heavy drinker and I know what it takes to get that bombed and I also know that there are plenty of places to stop before you get to that point,
    Lot was a worldling…he loved sin in moderation, but not in excess and like most worldlings, he found that it doesn’t work well.
    He was saved by grace through faith in Abrahams God…not because of his sterling character.

  46. Linda Pappas says:


    Curious, in your opinion, how was Lot and his family “forced” to leave their home.

    Also, was this a good thing that he chose to go and was not God protecting him, as Moses had asked Him to do when asking him to spare the righteous.

  47. Michael says:

    19:15–17 At last the night passes and the angels “at the coming of dawn” (v. 15) prepare for the destruction of the cities by ushering Lot and his family out of danger. Safety now lies “out[side] of the city” (v. 16). The prominent idea in vv. 15–22 is the urgency of Lot’s flight to safety. The first and final verses are commands, “Hurry! Take …” (qûm qaḥ; v. 15) and “quickly flee …” (mahēr himmālēṭ; v. 22). A contest of wills dominates the passage; verbal forms expressing desire/will occur eight times. The tone of the passage can be captured in the words of Lot, “No, my lords, please!” (v. 18). It will take all morning to get Lot out of town to nearby Zoar. Twice the angels strongly exhort Lot to flee, but he is uncooperative. First, he hesitates, but they force him to move (v. 16); and second, he stops abruptly, bargaining to divert to Zoar, one of the cities scheduled for annihilation (vv. 20–21). Moreover, the angel admits (in frustration?) that Lot’s reluctance hinders the completion of his assignment.
    “Flee” (mālēṭ) appears five times (vv. 17[2×], 19, 20, 22) and “run, flee” (nûs) once (v. 20). The two often occur in parallel (e.g., 1 Sam 19:10); the former describes slipping away successfully from danger and the latter open flight from danger. Hebrew mālaṭ is a sound play on the name of Lot (lôt); the humor of the play is that Lot is anything but quick to leave.
    “Or you will be swept away [sāpâ]” occurring twice (vv. 15, 17) forms the boundaries of vv. 15–17. This word recalls Abraham’s concern for the righteous (sāpâ, 18:23, 24). Time has run out; only those immediately in the house can be saved (v. 15). The listing of the family members twice (vv. 15, 16), absent the sons-in-law, indicates that they are doomed; further, t
    he list anticipates the demise of Lot’s wife, who until now has not been mentioned.

    Mathews, K. A. (2005). Genesis 11:27–50:26 (Vol. 1B, p. 239). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

    Yes, God protected him despite his behaviors…showing again the incredible mercy, grace, and faithfulness of God.

  48. Linda Pappas says:

    Physically removed? Do you mean that Lot did not walk out of Sodom being led by the angels, but was carried instead. My Bible doesn’t say this, Michael.

    Many people have been induced into drinking more than what they had intended. Once a person reaches a certain point of inebriation, choices are pretty much tossed out the door. Scripture tells us that his daughter was at fault, not Lot.

    Unless you are saying, of course, that the choice to drink would be sin as it permitted the person to be put in that position in the first place. But scripture does tell us this concerning Lot.

    I would agree that Lot when making the choice that Moses gave to him, he did choose to go in the direction that would try and vex him to no end. But even in this, while living in the midst of it all, I don’t see anywhere in scripture where it states that he sinned–only that he placed himself in danger by doing so. And in doing so, he lost his wife and was seduced into drinking more than what was enough, thus his daughters were able to rape him.

    Much like what Delilah was able to do with Samson. That is, except Samson was given already to drinking and carousing. So, it was much easier for her to bring him down. Yet, he repented and God still used him even at the cost of his own life.

  49. Linda Pappas says:

    Correction: ” But scripture does NOT tell us this concerning Lot.

  50. linda,

    are you saying that Michael is mishandling the scripture in order to support a view not supported by the actual text? perish the thought.
    be careful, you might be accused of slander.

  51. Michael says:


    The church historically sees Lot as I do, as a blessed scoundrel.
    The disconnect here is that when we make much of the grace of God toward someone like Lot it is automatically assumed by some that we are discounting the need for holiness and obedience.
    That is simply not so.
    The commands of Scripture are clear, but so is the reality that we all break them.
    That doesn’t justify doing so…it’s being honest to God about who we are.

  52. Michael says:

    15 As morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Up! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be swept away in the punishment of the city.” 16 But he lingered. So the men seized him and his wife and his two daughters by the hand, the LORD being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city.

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2001). (Ge 19:15–16). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

    The text is pretty clear here…the angels had to “seize” him to get them to leave….and there doing so was an act of God’s mercy.

  53. Michael says:


    You will not be allowed to simply hurl insults.

  54. Nonnie says:

    “……… the LORD being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city.”
    I think this says it all.

  55. Justsaying says:

    Now this is a strange thing.

    A man so drunk that he blacks out and yet he achieved an erection, twice, and produced seed enough to hit the mark both times? His boys can swim.

    Viagra is purchased by young men today because of the inability to perform while inebriated.

    Lot’s virility is miraculous.

  56. Linda Pappas says:

    To: Mike and Brandy

    Yes, in part this is what I am saying. I am respectfully disagreeing with him.

    Actually had spent some time in replying to Michaels response, but something went awry with this blog site and it was lost. Am considering rewriting what I want to post, but have other things I need to take care of for now. Have fallen behind a bit due to recent auto accident.

    For now just wanted to get back to you, Mike and Brandy to answer your question.

    By the way, God already knows who we are. He has provided a way to be reconciled to Him and in this all He asks of us is to obey and put away the things that separates us from receiving the full inheritance of His blessing and grace and love and mercy through Jesus. It’s all well and fine to confess our faults, but without repentance, there is no forgiveness.

  57. lordtheoden says:

    Thanks for this post Michael, it gives me hope when I was just about out.

  58. Linda Pappas says:

    Rather than to rewrite what had been lost to Internet space—I think Matthew Henry does an excellent job in what I would have shared, albeit it would have still not brought in the richness and truth of what God wanted us to know regarding these passages. In MH’s commentary, I think he captures and put into perspective what we can learn from this part of biblical history while applying it to our own lives and walk with the Lord.

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