The CCA Conference

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34 Responses

  1. Lurkie Loo says:

    Alex spoke and shared the reconciliation video at the conference. Do you know if there is a video of his talk and where I can view the reconciliation one? Thank you.

  2. Michael says:

    The conference archives are here.
    http://www.calvarygs.org/media/webcast/

  3. JM says:

    “no matter what evidence of corruption is presented, most rank and file CC pastors will not care and will not address any issues en mass.”
    “It is quite the experience watching men wax holy when you know all the stories behind the piety…”

    Amen. Enquiring minds want to know when your book will be ready, Michael. 🙂

  4. Michael says:

    JM,

    I don’t have a good answer for that question.
    Life is causing multitudes of interruption… 🙂

  5. JM says:

    I am sorry to hear that. Hopefully there are some good interruptions in there somewhere. Either way, hope things get better for you.

  6. Bob Grenier says:

    Hi, this is Bob Grenier, Alex’s and Paul’s father. Below is a link to a video about the reconciliation that has taken place in our family, and then in the next post, I’ll post a letter by my Son Paul, that letter was placed in each welcome kit for all who registered.

    As soon as the archives of the conference is available, you will be able to see the video again, followed by a very short message from my son Alex.

    My wife Gayle, our church, and myself would like to say, “Thank You” for any and all who have prayed for this matter. We thank God for His miraculous grace in what He has done. We also pray that this may be of encouragement to any who are currently suffering from division within their families. What He has done for us, He can do for you. Thank You. I’m available by phone or email to talk with anyone who might want to, @ 559 805 0980, and my email is bobgrenier@me.com. Michael, thank you. Hope to see you soon.

    675f2a6fa5

  7. Bob Grenier says:

    Sorry, forgot to include the letter from Paul.

    PAUL WILLIAM GRENIER

    Dear Pastor/Wife/Assistant/Staff Person/Volunteer

    Through all of my terrible choices, hurtful words and hateful actions, my parents never stopped praying for me. They never stopped loving me. They always prayed fervently that God would bring change in my life. Gayle and Bob Grenier never stopped believing God’s work is done in a person’s life. As a young child, growing up in Calvary Chapel, I often remember my Mother saying that Pastor Chuck would preach, “Prayer doesn’t change God’s mind or God’s purpose, prayer does change something – it changes us.” Those words could not be truer in my own life today.

    My Mother and Father never gave up on me. I hurt not just my own family, I hurt the family of Calvary Chapel as a whole. With deep respect, I hope that you accept my apology and I humbly ask that you allow me to show you with my actions and not words, my deep regret, and repentance for the sin and damage that I caused. My Father, Bob Grenier, was able to forgive me for the terrible and false accusations that I made against him molesting me and being a child abuser. I don’t know how my Dad found it in himself to forgive me. But he must have dug deep inside to do it. And he has shown me forgiveness, unconditionally.

    My, Mother, Gayle, forgave me with open arms and with a gentle heart. To know my Mother is to love her. In the very darkest of times for their own congregation, they prayed for me. This is so very true to the founding principle of God’s grace being bigger than any of us. This is what Pastor Chuck and Kay believed when God called them to start their ministry so many years ago. Many of you may not know, that my Mother became a Christian when Pastor Chuck and Kay first started their ministry when she was a teenager. Many times as a child I have heard her recount them meeting with all of the hippies and outcasts under the tent. She always spoke to me of how gracious Pastor Chuck and Kay were toward those that needed it the most. Those who were lost and were sinners.

    I have learned that forgiveness and reconciliation is an incredibly generous thing. Especially, when you really screwed up. For me, this is not an issue of wants vs. needs. It’s an issue of wants vs. priorities. And my priority is to try and right the wrongs I made. I believe after all of that I have experienced the only way to do that is, to be honest, and transparent and call it for what it is. The fact is I am a deeply flawed person, that lied because I was angry. And that anger only grew and hurt so many others. And I can tell you today at almost 36 years old, that being angry and trying to hurt people, only hurts you. You can’t hurt God. He will only keep loving you.

    I am grateful that I have a family and friends that have been Christ-like and forgiven me. I won’t ever forget that kindness.

    I hope if any of you feel that you have made a mistake or feel it is impossible to rectify a relationship that has been destroyed by your own mistakes, that within Calvary Chapel, you are surrounded by a family that loves you and will forgive you unconditionally. I know this to be true because I watched Pastor Chuck and Kay practice this their entire lives. And I’ve also watched my Mother and Father strive to do the same. And I am so very grateful that God’s grace is still at work in their lives and in Calvary Chapel as a whole. And also in all of your lives. A good friend of mine, Millie, recently reminded me that God’s work is never done in our lives.

    In closing, I would ask for your prayers moving forward in my life. I know that God hears prayer, and I would ask you to please pray for me. I’m attempting to make the right choices in my life, I do pray about these things often, and would appreciate you asking the Lord to direct me into His perfect will for my life.

    James 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.
    James 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.
    James 5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.

    Humbly,

    Paul Grenier

    Thank you

  8. filbertz says:

    people lose interest in pissing contests when the prostrates start to fail…

  9. Surfer51 says:

    Filbertz, nothing like it to bring in some sense of reality…failure to pee is serious business.

  10. JM says:

    #6. Thank you for chiming in Bob Grenier. Very glad for your family’s reconciliation. Thankfully, Alex and Paul’s stories did not turn out to be true. However, there were many stories on Alex’s CC Abuse site that were true and, apparently, are destined for the trash heap or arbitrarily deemed not as important. I would like to know what you think about all of that. Now that Alex is “back in the fold” and Paul is singing CC’s praises, has the moment passed for anyone to feel the need to acknowledge that abuse does exist inside of the CC system? Do you have any heart towards the damaged people? Would you consider being an agent of change even if it means removing the beloved dove because it has become a symbol of corruption to so many? What do you think of the Moses Model and how do you defend it from Scripture? If you were to finally find righteous anger against pastoral abuse committed by your peers what would you do? If you know about a situation and do nothing, are you okay with that? Do you think that CC pastors are capable of their own oversight considering how much money is involved in the bigger churches and not all of them are inclined towards full disclosure? Without being a respecter of persons, will you help expose and remove all of the pastors who have not stepped down from the pulpit for cause of adultery? (Bob Coy & Bob Caldwell’s situations were known before they were finally exposed in a more public way.) Will you require truthfulness and repentance on this issue as a basis for your own fellowship with your pastor peers? Will you make orthodoxy on a par with orthopraxy? Will you defend the kindly Pastor Chuck Smith for staying in the pulpit and lying to everyone for nearly 40 years after he was disqualified for the cause of adultery? If so, what makes his sin different than a pew warmer? Do you think that God made an exception for Chuck Smith? What you do you think of the way the David Hocking affair was handled back in 1992? What do you think of the date-setting that went on in the early 80’s? Was there ever a public repentance of all of it by Chuck or by you? There were those on the outside of CC who voiced opposition to what Chuck Did about Hocking, but did anyone inside of CC ever try to rebuke Chuck for the immoral way the Hocking affair was handled or for the date-setting? Were there any men close to Chuck who were capable of righteous protest at the time? If not–why not–and what does that say about the people he surrounded himself with? What do you think of the way Chuck separated from Lonnie Frisbee because of homosexuality without warning all the people Frisbee was around that they might have been exposed to someone who was spiritually unclean? Would this have been hypocrisy in light of Chuck’s own moral fall and failure to disclose? What about the lack of discernment with Chuck’s involvement with Kathryn Kuhlman who was later believed to have a familiar spirit and possibly Paul Cain who definitely had a familiar spirit? If a good rendering of Scripture proved that Chuck was wrong about something, do you think it would make any difference at all?

  11. Michael says:

    “There were those on the outside of CC who voiced opposition to what Chuck Did about Hocking, but did anyone inside of CC ever try to rebuke Chuck for the immoral way the Hocking affair was handled or for the date-setting?”

    There was some extreme (and in some cases, amusing) pushback to Hocking by some close to Smith.
    Smith was intractable.

  12. Steve Wright says:

    How silly to demand that Bob Grenier or any other CC pastor “answer” for anything Chuck Smith said or did in his ministry here on earth.

  13. JM says:

    Very interesting. Thank you for that information, Michael. Wish you could name names.
    You need to finish your book! 🙂

    Unfortunately, I need to go, so it might be unfair to stir the pot this way–but Saint Chuck had more than “clay feet”. For yours truly who saw the Hocking debacle, and saw and lived through much,much more, Paul’s letter (above) is somewhat offensive. Sadly, Paul won’t win the “most credible guy in the universe” award, so his letter may be viewed by some as being influenced or coerced–even if that was not the case. His past has done that.

    I could never speak ill about reconciliation as has occurred in this family, and I have no reason to disbelieve the accounts of the love shown by the Grenier parents. They have all been through a lot and deserve what peace they have now. However, their new found personal peace and love does not heal, does not help and does not address all the other issues that I brought up in my earlier posting. They are separate. Unfortunately, because CC has lost the trust of so many, much about all of this reconciliation talk is starting to wreak of some kind of proselytizing attempt. Is something God did in the healing of that family being used as a tool to bring in new sheep or bring sheep home who have “fallen away” because they are no longer in a CC fellowship. Is this a PR move?

    It’s possible that another setting might have been more suitable for the Grenier postings. Otherwise, one might inadvertently think they are placed here to deflect from the real issues at hand, which are the inability for CC/CCA to see itself as the sinful mess it is and it’s equal inability to repent of any of those sins. History is a good predictor of the future, so I remain a suspicious person. I hope I am wrong. I’ll check back tomorrow.

  14. Steve Wright says:

    I hope I am wrong.
    ————————————————
    No you don’t. And honesty is your first step towards healing.

    If there was EVER a “setting suitable for the Grenier postings” it is this blog. Here…now.

    The real issues at hand are that Chuck Smith is dead and now answers to the Lord Jesus Christ…..and that is not enough for some.

    But I say this with all sincerity and truth. After I type enter on this post, I am going to pray for your healing, JM. And then I will ignore your future posts because engaging further will only feed what is killing your soul.

    I can’t imagine wallowing in bitterness over something like the David Hocking issue that took place 25 (TWENTY-FIVE!) years ago. How that hurt YOU? Or Chuck’s supposed “date setting” from the 1980s? Or Lonnie Frisbee?

    If those are REALLY what is bothering you, then the CCA split is REALLY over doctrinal ministry issues and not a couple old-timers upset they don’t have the keys to the conference centers and radio stations. And I’ll eat my keyboard.

    No, but whatever it is, I truly do pray you can find peace as others have done. Don’t give Calvary Chapel and it’s past another ounce of your energy or thought – just go walk with Jesus day by day.

  15. Bob Grenier says:

    Hello JM. I’m sorry that I do not know who you are, or would call you by name. I’m aware this forum is for anyone who wants to share their thoughts, and post their comments, as I have done with mine. My sole purpose in posting was simply to share the blessings that have taken place in our family. And, also to show that what may seem impossible ( as our’s did for 13 years ) has turned out to be exceedingly, abundantly beyond what we could have thought or asked. It was not my purpose in posting what I did, nor will it be my purpose to address the concerns you mentioned. I do pray for God to shine His face upon you and give you His peace and wisdom regarding the concerns you shared. Though we do not know each other, if you would ever like to call and pray together, I’d love to do that. I know that our God is bigger and more able than we are to deal with all those things that concern us. Bless you JM. Bob Grenier 559 805 0980

  16. Josh the Baptist says:

    We have officially crossed into bizzaro world.

  17. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    Since I’m not under threat (from my dad) by a “14 million dollar” lawsuit, I’m free to ask, what about all the other things which came up during the “13 years?”
    Just so I’m clear, I’m not seeking (or asking) to rehash all the stuff, but I don’t understand what seems to be the official narrative that Paul lied (by his own admission), Alex championed Paul’s false accusations, and now Alex is flying the dove?
    We didn’t spend 13 years here just talking about those two things.
    A LOT of others voiced concerns which mysteriously popup throughout CCs, witnessed by many.
    Am I glad a family seems to have reconciled, yes.
    Am I concerned (for Alex and Paul’s sake) a lot of stuff is being swept under the 14 million rug, very.
    However, to take the position two issues were the sole catalyst for all this is just infantile and insulting to any rational person.
    I’m not expecting (nor asking) Bob to reply, just trying to bring another side, because as much as MANY have and will continue to try, there’s a MUCH larger issue here and elsewhere which isn’t going away, regardless of what lawyers are hired.
    Ironically, the CC division illustrates my point.
    I’m actually shocked these guys aren’t trying to blame us “bitter” (thinking for ourselves) people for their actions.
    Maybe if lawsuits begins amongst CCs (in the name of the Lord), they’ll make a hugging video. Oh wait, Brian’s already been sued.

  18. Xenia says:

    I will rejoice that a family has reconciled. As has been noted, this seemed like an impossible situation yet look at what our God can do. I’ve prayed for this family for many years (Alex’s name is written in our family’s daily prayer book) so I am not surprised things turned out well. God is good and He loves his children.

    The only reason this story ever became something we here on this blog talked about endlessly for a decade was because of the presence of Alex. The turmoil that occurred in this family was really none of our business yet Alex made it our business. If Alex’s family has been reconciled, then all that is left for us gawkers to do is rejoice. All the other details that some people want to nail down, from which people want to extract the last drop of vengeance, is not our business. Pastor Chuck is in heaven, rejoicing that this family has reconciled. And I will join him in this joy.

    I know some people thrived on this story and feel let down that God had his way and there isn’t going to be anymore vicious drama to enjoy, but that’s the way God does things.

  19. Josh the Baptist says:

    That’s unfair Xenia. I don’t think that’s the issue.

    But yes, this story is over and it should teach us all a lesson about getting wrapped up in the next one.

  20. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    JM,
    Sorry, I didn’t see your post before I posted, and think you addressed the issue better.
    Please ignore the passive-aggressive petulant posts.
    Like all the other reactions which accompany lies and weak position, that’s all they have, and when truth isn’t on your side, but that’s the hill you’ve chosen to die on, it’s very threatening, hence the behavior.
    Since I no longer subscription to the Protestant Papacy, threats and insinuations, and know we are all truly equal, I can thoughtfully and rationally discussion anything.
    Many of us will continue, because as much as the Caesar model may be threatened, especially as they attack each other, this isn’t, hasn’t been, nor ever will be THEIR “church,” which Jesus pretty effectively proved – he took the founder and faster than a “minister” can issue a fatwah, look what is happening.
    It’s sad really to fight for so long for something deep down you really don’t believe in, as I did for over a decade.
    First it was Jesus AND the Republican party. Then it was Jesus and the dove, then, then, then.
    Now, its just about Jesus.
    Pay careful attention to how much and often misdirection if used, insinuating applied, ANYTHING but acknowledgement of the issue.

  21. JM says:

    #14, Steve Wright, you have been well-spoken of on this site, so I will let your personal innuendo slide. You are obviously dealing with something. However, I have no problem believing that I am reasonable in being appalled at the fact that you were more worried about a deceased idol than the people I referenced who suffered from practices instituted by Chuck during his tenure here. Your voiced objections may say more about you than me.

    You are a shepherd and I would like to think a good one. Whether CC survives or continues to crumble into the earth is of no matter to me. My concern–and it should be yours–is whether the leaven of CC, which is, in part, a top heavy system with little to no accountability survives. If the CC entity lives on in any form, then abuse issues (which include sexual, emotional and financial) should be dealt with by those that want to keep the name. To not do so implies tacit agreement with every uncared for and wholly known aberration and sin that has gone before under that banner. Ignoring this history will give the further “appearance of evil”. I am still waiting for the “righteous” senior pastors to decry what happened in the cases of Bob Coy and Bob Caldwell. Because of the power given to these men under the Moses Model ,these affairs were able to go on quite awhile before someone blew the righteous whistle. One of these men had to be “outed” by someone on the outside of CC because the system was so corrupt it couldn’t identify his sin or correct it. Could there be other situations like this going on right now, but not known because the Moses Model makes that impossible? There’s a clue there somewhere.

    If anyone thinks they can hide under the “we’re only an association, not a denomination” platitude–that don’t fly. Scripture says if one suffers we all suffer. We are all part of the corporate Body of Christ and (with proper evidence) can call an unrepentant leader to account–even publicly–to help keep the body from corruption. (Much of that has been done on this site.) It would be nice to see the stain of apathy and rot removed from at least this portion of the Body of Christ.

    If some separate completely from being under the Dove, they are not “off the hook”.
    If they have wrongly remained quiet through all of the corruption and abuse, they need to repent of their silence in the face of so much testimony. If their reason was mis-placed loyalty to Chuck Smith, even in the face of his wrong-doing (infidelity, unscriptural handling of Hocking, etc.)–then that is idolatry and they need to repent of that. They may not have participated in these acts, but they went along with them. That means repentance of their cowardice and their fear of man and not of God. To fail in that way is not small for a pastor. We are heading into hard times. I don’t want someone like that to be my pastor. Just because time has passed, it doesn’t mean this stuff has gone away. God cares for his Bride and will, indeed, watch out for her. It would be better for leaders to care for these things themselves and not wait for God to do it.

    Judgement begins with the House of God. Either you believe it or you don’t. It’s time to grow up in the things of God. It’s time to get our collective, Christian house in order. It’s time for shepherds to worry about the sheep and not their own precious reputations or that of a their idol. Just as the Grenier family reconciled under confession, truth and love–the portion of the body that encompasses all factions of CC can do likewise if they have the will to do so. But…do they have the will or the courage to seek God at the risk of finding out they went along with some things that were a lie or unscriptural? History is bad there. Sadly, without true repentance and a good housecleaning, things are destined to stagnate until complete impotence is achieved. I’ll pass.

  22. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    JM,
    Also, I think it’s important to note that this issue which is supposedly none of our business – which by the way we only know about because it was a production (literally), shared at a large conference, then posted here.
    Did we ask them to put on a production?
    Did we ask use it as part of a narrative?
    Did we decide which CC conference it would be shared at and which it wouldn’t (I wonder if Brian will have to pay a free)?

  23. em ... again says:

    having just come off a season of writing my recollections of the life and times of my childhood for my children (that’s going back 70 years plus), i’d like to echo the wise folk here who are saying essentially, “leave it alone now” … God is a genius and, to quote an old observation, we only see the backside of the tapestry He is weaving
    1 Peter 4:15 “But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.”

  24. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    So many here sound like the “other son” in the prodigal son story.
    I wonder how many who saw the father feasting at the return of his son, continued to throw up the past.

    No one did battle like me and Alex over the years – but I say great news and congratualtions to all. If is a time to feast and not bitch and moan.

  25. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    JM,
    #21 was very wise, I wished I just read that instead of all the misdirection.
    Interesting how pompus and seemingly loving people can pretend when its easier than really caring.
    I guarantee you when “the sheep” are being abused, Jesus isn’t citing to himself the Moses model, or Paul when he rebuked churches for not dealing with problems, which only make’s up 2/3 of the NT!
    Maybe its a baggage issue – if a person was abused (or continues to be, especially by an abusive “minister”), and they receive no love or concern, than hurt turns to denying anyone else the same.
    However, like I said, I don’t follow man, so I don’t have to be controlled (anymore) by abusive power and the baggage of others, not to mention the outright twisting of Biblical texts.
    With all of the supposed “analysis” going on, one thing can’t be denied.
    People can continue to spend long periods of self-deflecting actions or just say two words – I’m sorry.
    I would be the first to rally around and defend, especially a leader who (maybe for the first time) said those words.
    I will not defend the carnality of those whom God said are under a greater judgement. I guess they would say God is “bitter.”

  26. Steve Wright says:

    I’m going to argue with you again, MLD. 🙂

    Alex and I went head to head more than even you. I even got an article on the old website.

    But he was quick to IMMEDIATELY reach out to me in reconciliation, as I was quick to receive and celebrate. Alex and I are truly friends now. And it is a wonderful thing.

    No “I told you so’s”, no hidden pr agenda, no deep CC state conspiracy theory. 🙂

    Just the love of Christ. By the way, between two of the very few guys actually known by name around here and not lobbing keyboard grenades from the anonymous darkness.

    We are seeing the power of the gospel unfold before our eyes…in many facets, on many levels. Alex and his family being chief. It is a time to rejoice. And a time to thank God.

  27. Michael says:

    A couple of things…

    First,after 15 years or so of being involved in CC issues, I can tell people again that there will never be any kind of systemic change in terms of ecclesiology.

    Forget it.

    Second, while I have communicated my concerns to Bob Grenier about some issues, my biggest “issue” is that I love Alex like a son and he has found a measure of peace.

    That matters much more to me than every other consideration.

    Period.

  28. Steve says:

    Bob Grenier,
    Thank you for making yourself accessible. What a great thing to do. I am truly glad you have found reconciliation with your sons. It is a great testimony to God’s faithfulness.
    I would like to say though that JM does have some valid points.

    There are issues in CC that never seem to get addressed and they never will because the average parishioner really has no voice or advocate. It’s sad that blogs like this one are the only way at times to expose. However, sun light is the best disinfectant and it should be welcome not despised.

    I’m not here to rehash the Chuck Smith or David Hocking scandal but I would like to say that the system that allowed this kind of sin to flourish in it’s day seems to be alive and well today in many CCs. Its blatantly obvious to me with the Josh Turnasky article with Don McClure and the Philadelphia boys.

    With that in mind, my concern really is with Philadelphia and has been for quite some time. What I see happening does not appear to be good but I’m trying to be careful in not judging motives. Personally, I think much more sun light needs to be put on Philadelphia and Joe Focht in particular especially if he has been the one financing Don McClure. Sun light is a good thing. I hope they can embrace it with open arms. So far I’m skeptical.

  29. Josh the Baptist says:

    Michael, you might want to go ahead and shut down comments for this one.

    The finger-wagging is about to bring me out of my very brief retirement.

  30. Steve Wright says:

    Steve Wright is right ? He and I have reconciled and Steve is a peacemaker, he has always tried to build a bridge here between CC and those negatively affected by CC.
    ————————————————–

    Thank you, Alex. It means the world to me to see you write this here.

    Bless you.

  31. JM says:

    I do not feel bad for even a micro-second for anything I have said. Look at the title of this blog post and review its content. It is about the inability of CC/CCA to come to consensus or even repent of its hypocrisy. I simply agreed with and expounded upon the commentary. It was mentioned that the Grenier situation was presented at the Conference, but that was not the original subject matter here. That was why I was puzzled and questioned the submissions made by Bob Grenier in this particular setting. In another setting, it might have gone unchallenged. Infact, if the conference was as deficit in some areas as was reported in the post above, and Bob attended, then it would be reasonable to ask questions about those deficits. That would actually be on point if any one wishes to do so.

    Post, #15 — Bob Grenier

    I concur that some things should not be questioned nor ever opposed. God’s will is for peace among His people if at all possible. You were publicly accused of falsehoods, Bob, and it was right and proper that Alex, from your own pulpit, publicly renounced those falsehoods and restored to you your reputation. You deserved that. I hope that everyone who was affected by those falsehoods has heard the recantings by both of your sons and have come to you and given you comfort. You deserve that. I also think it speaks well of you and your wife, that after all you have suffered, you were still willing to take your sons back and love them unconditionally. It does take a miracle of God for that to happen and it should witness to others that such things are possible. Putting aside the falsities of the “name it and claim it” slobber, we need to all have more of the simple faith that believes God can still work miracles–even in the heart. I, too have had many such miracles. Two come to mind. I forgave the family member who, under the influence of a cult, tried to strangle me to death once I became a Christian. I got away and later we were reconciled in a beautiful way. I even forgave a person, who did something so cruel, it caused me to have a mild heart attack in my forties. Yes–miracles do happen when hearts are broken and all is subserviant to God’s will. The fact that Alex has peace again and is reunited with you is priceless. I was on his CC Abuse site and followed through on my promise to pray for your family. I hope with all my heart that it does nothing but get better for all of you from here on in. That is something that is sacred to me. Again, these miracles are not in question by me at all.

    I see the reconciliation as a completely separate issue, however, and has nothing to do with what I am talking about–unless…this family reconciliation is to be a springboard for a reconciliation between CC and all those they have harmed. According to Michael that will never happen, though.

    I will say that It its good that you have been willing to come back to post in the wake of my pointed commentary. That would not have been easy for you. Thank you for that and thank you for your kind comments.

    To be clear, I have not tried to necessarily make you or anyone else directly responsible for the mis-deeds of others. However, that does not mean that the silence of many in the CC Association/system has not contributed to the furtherance of problems exposed in so many testimonies of abuse. Like the legal charge of child neglect–a person may not have done it–but they knew about it, did nothing to stop it and, by default, allowed it to happen again. That’s one of my issues. Because you are a leader of a Calvary Chapel church, that name puts you in a group of like-named churches and, like it or not, also puts you in agreement with their public sin or abuse if you choose to be publicly silent about it. My point in all of this is that a leader’s attitude toward sin in the camp is very important. You cannot be a respecter of persons and you have to call sin what it is or it proliferates and hurts people. Calvary Chapel as a whole has a reputation of covering up the sins of its leaders and treating those of the pew warmers differently. I have used the cases of Chuck Smith’s adultery and David Hocking’s moral failure as examples of an extremely unscriptural posture on cases of immorality among its leaders. It also should not have taken so long for the Coy and Caldwell perversions to come to light, but that’s what the system fosters. A righteous man should be appalled at all of that. As long as these things are uncared for–the stain remains and there is no healing. There is no healing because there is no attempt to rebuild trust for those that have suffered under the heavy hand of some CC’s. That can only be done by cleaning out the camp. Michael gives no hope for that. However, if that were able to be done–some might come back.

  32. The Least of These says:

    What happened to the Grenier family was sad. I had dealings with Alex and it was very obvious his pain had led him to a dark foaming place. It became toxic with him and I had to cut him off because of it at one point. But now the only thank that matters is that truth is acknowledged and healing has begun. That is will of God in this matter, the rest is just noise. My heart is relieved for them and I pray what has begun will continue.

    Calvary is a troubled child in the family of God. This is without question. I watch the new Calvary Bible Institute video today and read the Doctrinal Statement. They are just propagating a system by using their own version of life support for a man they loved, but who was deeply flawed. The band plays on…

    Steve W… I’ve said it before… you are a good man. I’m glad you are there to provide a rationale from behind the CC pulpit when the dialogue gets bogged down in the minutia. For all the ugly stains of CC left behind in my own life, you stand out as someone I could trust and I trust very, very few. I guess it’s cause I believe you when you say you care.

    JM… much of what you say is something I identify with. There needs to be systemic change in CC. I fear Michael is right that it will never happen and as such the oncoming extinction will not be avoided by a continual rehashing of CC Distinctives. That to me is what the Philly boys are actually doing because they are convinced there is nothing wrong with atmosphere in which they breathe. And to add to your statement even I thought watched the video and felt a bit voyeuristic peering into a private family matter that was now being broadcast from a very specific point of view. Still, I champion the process of renewal and I hope that they are able to fully recover and move beyond this.

    As I have stated before: My pain and wounds and aches from a storied history at CC are real, and I am afraid nothing will ever change that. CC were my people, and now I am an outcast, and nothing will ever change that either. I did nothing wrong. I didn’t sleep around. I didn’t steal money. I didn’t commit blackmail or murder. I just quit being a sycophant, and I wasn’t willing to stop saying the Emperor is naked and it was enough to have me marginalized. I was betrayed by CC, and they felt very satisfied about it. And it seems I will never be healed- much like how Frodo still felt the pain the blade long after the ring had been destroed. I am not the only one. I am one of many who have found a voice here. Perhaps that is why Alex’s cry resonated. He was screaming to be heard the same as so many faceless people who choose passive aggressive means of discourse by hiding under monikers in a blog.

    Now Alex has been heard. Let it be. May God be glorified in this…

  33. Kevin H says:

    (I started this comment but hadn’t posted yet and then saw Alex’s posting. Later in my comment, I clarify what is newly written after Alex’s posting.)

    I don’t think Bob Grenier has any more responsibility than most all other current CC pastors to answer for problems in the past with Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel. Even with the current issues of the CC split and CCA, grilling Bob on those things here really serves no good purpose.

    I am glad for the reconciliation of Alex and Bob and their family as a whole. It is truly a work of God that many of us probably never saw coming. If we are so quick to acknowledge that, yeah, that’s great, and then quickly start demanding answers about all things wrong we see in Calvary Chapel, then we probably are allowing our hurts and frustrations which have very little to do with the Grenier family to dominate the situation.

    What I believe would be reasonable to expect is some explanation and clarification on the whole Grenier situation within some kind of reasonable time frame moving forward. That is what this situation is about, not Chuck Smith or sins of Calvary Chapel past or even the problems with the current CCA and CC split. It would seem that an explanation have been given to at least some degree (and maybe even a full enough degree because I certainly don’t know what all has been communicated) to the immediate church family and to a smaller extent to the rest of the public through the video and article from Calvary Chapel magazine. Since this became such a public issue due to Alex’s outspokenness here and on his website and even other places and a lot of very specific allegations of abuse (including the separation at various times of 3 different brothers from the family because of these abuse accusations) and the lawsuit that was filed against him and even the accusations of others from the church, then I think it would only be right that the public that was drawn in for support would also be given a fuller considerate and honest explanation and clarification.

    Now at this point I have seen Alex’s posting.

    Alex,

    I rejoice for the healing you have experienced. And I am glad to see you post here. Your posting here has helped to clarify at least some of the things I mention above. I am sure there are many things you are working through with your family and I imagine there may be things that still could/should/are being dealt with as a church. I pray that God is involved through all those processes and that they result in peace, righteousness, and reconciliation. God bless you, brother.

  34. pstrmike says:

    “Now Alex has been heard. Let it be. May God be glorified in this…”

    I am glad that the Greniers have reconciled.

    Many of us understood this story to be just one representation of bigger problem concerning areas of church accountability and identifying what “fellowship” actually means. I asked questions, did a vast amount of reading on ecclesiology, and have been able to get a few answers for myself that were costly, but ultimately, worth the price, as I trust these answers will serve me well in the future. I have lost what I thought were friends and have severed myself from others to walk a new path.

    I think it is time for us to move on from all this and remember Jesus’ words to let the dead bury the dead.

    Peace.

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