The Seeds of a New Reformation?
Carl Trueman wrote an amazing article over on First Things.
Speaking of the attempted coverups and possible coercion in the Ergun Caner and Mark Driscoll cases he asks;
“Is journalism no longer considered a legitimate Christian calling? Or is the task of the Christian journalist simply to strengthen the hand of the vested interests?”
“Where the situation becomes sinister is when one group attempts to police the activities of another, or where one Christian organization or leader uses their personal power or share of the market to prevent others, with whom they are not formally connected, from speaking freely and asking the hard questions. At that point, things take a very sinister turn indeed.”
On the Ref 21 blog he had already written these words;
“For some time now I have been harping on and on about the corrupting effects of celebrity culture on conservative evangelicalism. I think I was wrong: we are not dealing these days with mere celebrities; the ethical transgressions we are witnessing would indicate that we are actually dealing with a form of evangelical Nietzscheanism whereby the leaders of the movement are, to borrow a phrase, beyond good and evil. “
That is exactly the situation we now find ourselves in. The church has elevated it’s celebrities to the point where we actually act as if we believe that they are only accountable to their peer group, ie; other celebrities. The biblical concept of being accountable to the church has been replaced with the high council of the rich and famous…an American religious oligarchy.
“Second, it is possible that we will see a re-run of the Elephant Room debacle. The whistleblowers will be maligned, marginalised and then safely ignored. Maybe, if we are lucky, there will be a public statement talking about ‘errors of judgment’ and ‘mistakes that have been made’ along with a humble commitment to ‘do better in the future.’ The movers and shakers will either keep silent or reassure everybody that it is all under control and being dealt with appropriately behind the scenes. A decent period of quiet will then ensue. And shortly thereafter it will be back to business as usual. That too, one might add, will be a powerful signal to the watching world.”
That is the blueprint both on the micro and macro levels…I’ve seen it over and over again.
The only thing that will change it is a new Reformation…and I believe we may see one in this country if the new Reformers can survive being sued into submission.
YES! They are simply emulating their version of “EVIL GOD” and “GOOD GOD”…A God who slaughters the women, children, infants and animals in the Old Testament and executes women and children with stones and has concubines (sex slaves) and slaves and does whatever the hell he wants and its all “GOOD” b/c ….”God said!”
Trueman: “the ethical transgressions we are witnessing would indicate that we are actually dealing with a form of evangelical Nietzscheanism whereby the leaders of the movement are, to borrow a phrase, beyond good and evil.”
Yes, very very true.
Chuck Smith could do no wrong, whatever he did was ‘for the ministry!’ which made it all “Good”…same with BG, same mindset throughout CC, same with Driscoll, Heitzig, Bentley, Crouch, Young, Furtick etc etc.
Some are more intentional than others, but the common denominator is the dynamic that Trueman describes and the dynamic I describe above.
These leaders are in effect “God” himself and the biblical narrative, if one accepts the Old Testament and Revelation as canon and infallible, perfect, Absolute Truth etc….asserts that God can do both Good and Evil, even horrendous things and it doesn’t matter…he is “God” and can do what he wants.
That’s the Church Leadership mindset. It is common across all religious lines and denoms and non-denoms. Leaders are “God” and “God” can do whatever he feels is “right” to advance, protect and preserver the “ministry”
Very cult-like and dangerous, but it is what it is.
“The only thing that will change it is a new Reformation…and I believe we may see one in this country if the new Reformers can survive being sued into submission.”
Isn’t that the Truth LOL.
They can sue, but they’ll never get the submission part, at least from some of us.
All of life is a search for truth. The dangerous ones are the ones who want to capture the truth, hide it, and guard the gate. Anyone else searching for truth is rebuffed at the gate by the goon squad.
It is evil. To stand in the way of truth, even if that truth is personally inconvenient, is evil.
I’m just glad that no one knows any Lutheran pastors outside of their own zip code. They must just tend to their church business and stay out of everyone else s.
MLD, I know arrogance is fun…trust me, I know. But here’s a zillion links for you to read, then get back to us:
https://www.google.com/search?q=disgraced+lutheran+pastor&oq=disgraced+lutheran+pastor&aqs=chrome..69i57.6898j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8
Josh, LOL! Yes, we are all afflicted with the same human condition…even the high holy Lutherans 🙂
Even the f’n Buddhist Zen Masters LOL
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/14/the-shocking-scandal-at-the-heart-of-american-zen.html
There’s no difference between humans and people Groups in terms of propensity and actuality of Evil. We all tick essentially the same. The so-called “Transformation Gospel” is a myth. Sin abounds. Sin abounds in all flavors of the 9,000 to 30,000 Christian* denominations and in every single Group, Religious, Humanist, Cult or otherwise on the planet.
All we can do is try to articulate and uphold some sort of Moral/Ethical Law and have Checks and Balances in place to help stem the tide of Man’s Evil…whether it be in Calvary Chapel or the f’n Buddhist Temple.
That’s the point our CC “friends” don’t get. Your “spirit filled”-ness and “anointing” means squat. You’re human. Some of you will do very bad things. The only thing you can do is have some sort of System with Checks and Balances and rules and enforcement in place to help deal with it and to help curb it.
Open Finances is one simple yet big Check and Balance, so is a serious process for allegations of Child Abuse, Spousal Abuse etc.
Ricky, do you have a link that defines “transformation Gospel”? I just don’t know what that is.
It sounds like you are contrasting it with total depravity, and if that is the case, I would agree with you.
Josh, the point is you need to go google them. None do you know as household names and all have been handled and dispatched.
Most of those were over teaching errors or duplicates.
I could do more specific google search, if you’d like. I’m sure it wouldn’t take much digging. The fact that you don’t have household names may point more towards your relevance than your innocence.
MLD has one point in his favor.
I do not believe that the LCMS would countenance the kind of nonsense we see from independent organizations.
All of the rubbish going on with Caner and Driscoll and still people support them. Crazy…. I just don’t get it.
Nonnie,
The question is…why?
Michael,
Nah, its everywhere:
http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2012/04/minnesota_lutherans_demand_change_following_pastor_sex_scandal.php
Nonnie and Michael – Money and power.
Josh, that is the point – a pastor is to be relevant to his congregation. Where do you see a need for a pastor to be relevant in other parts of the country?
Look, I never said there weren’t scoundrels – but Lutheran pastors are at least on their knees every Sunday confessing to the congregation that they are scoundrels – some may use the words “a poor miserable sinner deserving nothing but eternal and temporal punishment.” – but they are scoundrels … just like me.
Josh,
Why do people still support them?
The evidence is overwhelming…yet people still support them
“but they are scoundrels … just like me.”
Good. Now dispense with the high and mighty act, and join the conversation.
People still support them because of money and power. Period. The two guys in question can raise lots of funds. Now, alot of people have a vested financial interest in their well-being.
Josh,
I think you are the one who is a different conversation. The article is about glory hog pastors who have this insatiable need for national and worldwide attention and will do whatever to whomever to hold the national stage.
My #5 was a comment on that – and you went searching for people who had sin in their life … which is never denied – but is not the topic of this conversation… or it wasn’t until you twisted it.
Josh,
The guy in the pew doesn’t get any money or power.
He pays for it.
Why would the church pay to be run by scoundrels?
MLD:
“I’m just glad that no one knows any Lutheran pastors outside of their own zip code. ”
They must at least must know their area code and phone number or how else are they going to get a “call” when things become difficult at their church.
Lutheran humor.
An article about Ergun Caner’s fraud, and Driscoll’s plagiarism isn’t about sin. OK.
Michael, there are several things that go into that, nut money and power do play in. Why did the person show up at Driscoll’s church in the first place? They liked that it was cool and hip and run by a celebrity. Now they’ve devoted years and dollars to that church and don’t want to believe that they’ve been swindled. All of life is a search for truth. Sometimes you find yourself a long way down the wrong path before you realize that it is not leading to truth. Some people take the hard route of jumping ship and starting over. Most don’t endure that pain. They cover their eyes and say “THIS IS MY PATH!”.
Josh,
I think there is some wisdom in what you spoke, but there’s more…
As church I think evangelicals have lost both the doctrines of holiness and the fear of God.
Contrary to what RB writes, I think that the softening and anthropomorphizing of the wrath of God against sin and the justice of God have left us with a false god who doesn’t care what choices you make in this life…and isn’t THAT offended by sin.
Why do the sheep support them? They like the feeling of getting their ears tickled. Terrorism is exciting and sex, mixed with misogyny, mixed with the gospel, are quite thrilling to some.
“The biblical concept of being accountable to the church has been replaced with the high council of the rich and famous…an American religious oligarchy.”
Very well said. The membership requirements of such circles is to obtained a level of success well beyond the normal. Today that is achieved and maintained in some cases by questionable ethics and pragmatic, systematic approach that is harvesting from other fields all in the name of “the Gospel”. I would hope that we would be seeing more and more come into the kingdom, but that for the most part doesn’t appear to be the case. Ahab wants Naboth’s vineyard, and it appears in many cases, that he is getting it.
While I totally agree that we’ve lost our sense of the Holy, I don’t think it plays as big as a part in this particular thing.
If you read John 9 – 12, you’ll see the Jewish leaders doing some crazy things. They excommunicated a man, simply because he once was blind but could now see. They wanted to kill Jesus, who did nothing wrong, Then, they decided to kill Lazarus, simply because he had been raised from the dead. Why would these good, decent, religious men go all wacky like that? They showed their hand in John 11:48 .
People are pretty simple in a way. You threaten their money or their position and they will do whatever it takes to hold on.
Nonnie,
Excellent…too true.
Ixtlan,
I wish we could pin that comment to frame the whole discussion…
Checks and balances against abuses of power. That’s why, when it comes down to it, I’m more in favour of denominational ecclesiology than independent churches. You don’t get young charismatic guys setting up church in whatever way they want, becoming less accountable the more popular they become because so many depend on them. I think that’s part of what MLD is talking about – you don’t see this cult of personality to the same extent in Presbyterian, Lutheran, confessionally Reformed, etc. denominations… at least that I can think of… And even when they do get famous, it’s usually a parachurch ministry – e.g. RC Sproul.
To my own shame, we Reformed are trying to lead the pack in coverups and coercion.
We’re clumsy at it from lack of practice, but we’re getting there.
steve,
” I think that’s part of what MLD is talking about – you don’t see this cult of personality to the same extent in Presbyterian, Lutheran,…”
I’m telling you, make your pastor stand in front of the congregation wearing a dress, like we do and it keeps them humble. 😉
The problem is that big denominational hierarchy has NOT eliminated abuses of power. It could be argues that they are even worse.
Josh,
I would challenge that…I think the problem is much greater in Baptistic independents of various stripes.
Worse than the Roman Catholics?
I was addressing evangelicalism.
I guess choose your poison… Old boys network abuses of power, or young charismatic dictator abuses of power… Kind of reminds me of the saying (Churchill?) “Democracy is the worst form of government other than all the rest of them”… Which is partly how I’d distinguish Roman Catholic government from say, Presbyterianism…
Josh,
“The problem is that big denominational hierarchy has NOT eliminated abuses of power. It could be argues that they are even worse.”
Where do you think this power is? My pastor works for the congregation (we don’t play the hireling guilt trip thing I hear from evangelicals). His only “power” is in the pulpit as he is in charge of Word and Sacrament.
The Synod president has no “power” over our congregation – so I don’t know what you are seeing. Are you having a power issue with your denomination? Are they dictating to your church? or is it just that your pastor is over bearing?
My point is not that anyone is innocent, it is that all are guilty. We can easily find abuses in all denominations and all independant affiliations.
That doesn’t seem to be the correct answer.
I would agree that there are abuses in all types of organizations… I guess I was just wondering if a certain type of structure is more susceptible to abuse than others… Maybe it’s that different types of structures are more open to different types of abuse?
Nevermind yall. MLD has it figured out. Everyone join the Lutherans! Ignore the 6,500,000 links that come up when you search for Lutheran abuses of power. They don’t really count.
I’m assuming that’s what your looking for, MLD?
“Maybe it’s that different types of structures are more open to different types of abuse?”
I think that’s right.
I have a book about LCMS scandals…I should link to it… 🙂
Listen, I applaud MLD for finding a church that he believes in. I have found one too. It is SBC, and it works very good.
But Furtick is kinda SBC too.
And Perry Noble. And others.
I can’t just say the problems don’t exist. They do. In the SBC, LCMS, CC, and everywhere else. The question is, how do you approach those problems?
It’s not simply a difference in the kinds of abuses.
It’s how the abuses are dealt with by the governing structure and how the congregants respond.
Much bigger issue in baptistic independents of all stripes.
” I guess I was just wondering if a certain type of structure is more susceptible to abuse than others”
IMO, yes. Where Moral Hazard and some sort of defined and quantified and enforced Rule of Law is lacking…you’ll attract more abuse and corruption.
You can’t eliminate it (though Singapore has done near job of it)…you can curtail it.
I guess it’s a fault that I have .. Google is not my god nor how I develop my thought process.
Well, that’s an odd change of subject. Whatever.
“It’s not simply a difference in the kinds of abuses.
It’s how the abuses are dealt with by the governing structure and how the congregants respond.
Much bigger issue in baptistic independents of all stripes.”
Show me a denom that hasn’t had major cover-ups and maybe I’ll agree with you. Right now, you are just guessing.
Caner spoke at my church during a conference a couple years back. I wasn’t thrilled with him being there because that is when some of the stuff about him what starting to come out and he looked like he could be a shady character. Since that time, more and more evidence has come out about him that has pretty much proven him to be a fraud, with his own refusal to admit to any substantive wrongdoing only re-inforcing the verdict of his character.
I do not know if my church would have Caner back with everything that has come out since. I would be very disappointed if they did so. But to be honest, I think most of the congregation at my church wouldn’t have a problem with it. A good many would not even be aware of his problems in the first place. But I also think that a good many that may be aware of his problems would have the attitude of, “Well if the church and the pastor is good with having Caner speak in the pulpit, then I am good with it, too.” I could be wrong, but that is my perception.
Strict harsh rule of law seems to lower crime, not crimes of the heart, but outward crime like theft, murder etc. as exampled by Singapore and Saudi Arabia and other hard-core countries like that.
The Wild West and libertarianism seems to lower outward crime with everyone being armed and having the ability to enact justice when needed.
The worst case examples of crime run amok are anarchy and then corruption-based states like Mexico, the US etc.
If one CC or Baptist church has Caner speak, that is their problem….I don’t believe it reflects upon the integrity of every other CC or Baptist church.
“Strict harsh rule of law seems to lower crime, not crimes of the heart, but outward crime like theft, murder etc. as exampled by Singapore and Saudi Arabia and other hard-core countries like that.”
The problem in these case, and it seems to be directly tied to what we are talking about, is who then polices the police? It’s the top dogs who are running wild, not the little guy underneath the oppressive power structure.
Kevin H,
I think you’re exactly right.
Josh,
I don’t have an empirical study at hand, but I have studied this for years.
I think an LCMS or OPC has very corruption compared to an IFB.
Nonnie,
Caner becomes an issue for all CC’s when he is invited as a speaker with Veritas…which is endorsed by Big Calvary.
It’s not fair to some, but it creates an issue that affects everyone.
“I think an LCMS or OPC has very corruption compared to an IFB”
That could be true, maybe. But there could also be other factors than denominational structure that feed into that. My GUESS is that LCMS pastors on the whole are more educated than IFB pastors. You can see big correlations between lack of education and tendencies toward abuse.
Agreed about Caner. It sets the example and is an endorsement of him. Veritas is part of Big Calvary and CCCM is Mecca.
That CCCM and Veritas and Brodersen endorse a Caner and validate him is proof of the bad judgment of Big CC and it does lower the credibility for the rest of the Brand franchisees.
Ergun Caner has no place in a credible institution whose very name is dedicated to “Truth”. The irony is thick.
Josh,
I very much believe you hit one of the truths…the lack of education does make a difference.
One reason I hear people give for continuing to support a leader in habitual sin, is that they simply can’t afford to move their families, yet again.
Most stick their heads in the sand and hope for the best, wait for a change of guard.
Some remain willfully blind for what looks like pride reasons. They do not want to be wrong. Their choice of churches, or denom, must be the “right” one because it is a reflection of their who they are … a major piece of their image.
I also think people have a hard time separating what is unrepentant sin with no reasonable accountability structure in place from a momentary fall a person can recover from.
Chile,
Expand on that…with a church on every corner, why is it hard to move?
I have to go get Trey…back shortly.
It’d be one thing if a Caner said, “hey you know, I lied, I embellished, I was wrong. I take responsibility for my words and I’ll correct them. I’m sorry. I’ll clean it up.” and then he went on and corrected his schpeel after acknowledging fault and taking his medicine.
But, nope. That’s not how it works in CC or Evangelicalism or politics or anywhere really.
Gotta lie, spin out of it, reframe it, deny, sue etc.
That’s the Christian* Evangelical way!
That’s right Ricky. If the truth threatens my money or my position, I have to do all in my power to suppress it.
People don’t leave often b/c they really don’t care. As long as they aren’t personally affected by the Church or leader in a negative way and they get some perceived benefit out of the church (makes them feel more godly and satisfies their guilt-driven check-list Christian* mentality “well I go to church every week! I’m pleasing God! I’m saving myself!” then they won’t leave.
Very very few care about matters of conscience and integrity at their local church. Very few care if others have had a problem. It’s very selfish. It’s very human.
Moving a family to another church, even across the street, is an endeavor that requires some mental fortitude.
Try moving kids out of their peer group into a new one. Even mine knew the pastor was a wolf through and through. They knew we were being thrown out unjustly. They were shunned, too. But it was really hard on them to have to start all over again in a new church. It takes time to adjust and they are still the outsiders several years later.
It’s starting relationships from scratch … again.
It’s learning the new church’s strengths and weaknesses, being on guard … again.
I like how my Lutheran church switched out the pastor every 2 to 4 years. It kept the church in tact, even if it was rough on the pastor’s family. They are still in tact some 40 years after I left. For a small town, that’s important.
Michael though there is truth in your premise there is also much hyperbole. The overwhelming majority of self professed Christians in America know nothing of these celebrity pastors like Driscoll and caner. Rather they are shepherded by local no name humble men (and women) who faithfully serve The Lord for little earthly reward. You know this to b true but it is much more sensational to focus on the relatively few in number celebrity pastors who fail and fall. It’s true in CC and in the larger generic “church” in America. Yet this blog continues to feed the lie that pastors abuse and victims abound. I understand you feel a call to expose unrighteousness in the church. But is it that hard to write about one solid ministry each week? The grass roots effort you so boldly led earlier this week should confirm to you that the church is hungry for righteous men and not interested in the exaggerations of unrighteousness that regularly grace these pages.
Mark, do you see no issue with fraud and plagiarism among Christian leaders?
Re: Mark
My old pastor, who was eventually exposed and pried out of office, was not a celebrity; rather he emulated the celebrities our culture has lifted up and empowered in Evangelicalism. I see this over and over again. I’m currently watching a “good” man, “righteous” pastor, also be unduly influenced by celebrity driven Evangelical pastors and the slide is taking place in increments.
The warning on these pages is needed.
For every person who knows about current abuses there are hundreds of attenders who know nothing of the sort. At least, that is my impression. We are told to warn others of such sin inside the church.
Some times this page sounds more like Yelp.
When Driscoll is pointed out for plagiarism or Caner for fraud, that doesn’t mean the entire erntity is bad, nor should it mean that every action is to be scrubbed and scrutinized.
Josh, if you hear about a wife who steps out on her husband, do you accuse your wife?
“All of the rubbish going on with Caner and Driscoll and still people support them. Crazy…. I just don’t get it.”
Then those people have no one to blame but themsleves when they are let down by their Leaders. They have the Bible, maybe they should read it and stop relying on Man to teach them. The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth not man. They would see that these men don’t model Bbilical leadership. But people want it this way, I’m done trying to change the system. I am just going to read my word, fellowship with the brethren and preach the gosple and make disciples of all nations. At the end of the day everyone is responsible for working out their own salvation. I am tired of people whining and crying but yet still stay in abusive Intstitutional Church systems. I say leave and don’t look back and then warn the Brethren of these Wolves. The Driscolls and McArthurs of the World are not Pastors anyways they are just CEO’s of a Non Profit Corporation. We don’t need another Reformation, we just need to get back to basics and keep it simple.
“Josh, if you hear about a wife who steps out on her husband, do you accuse your wife?”
Why do you ask? Have you heard me accuse my pastor or my church of something? I haven’t.
No, but you seem to move the conversation from “since some do, then we should scrutinize all.”
That’s weird. I don’t recall saying that at all.
Where do you see a need for a pastor to be relevant in other parts of the country?
————————————————————————
This makes no sense. Why would someone not want the Lord to use their lives to minister to as many people as possible – given the technology of the day?
Why did pastors of the past also publish their sermons? Why did they write books?
Same reason they do today, with added blogging, youtube and other opportunities current technology affords.
Now, once we get past MLD’s throwing the baby out with the bathwater mentality…
Where I do think we could see a change is in the turning over of the Sunday morning worship service to guest speakers. (i.e. celebrities)
Since I have been the pastor at CCLE, the only ones who have spoken on Sundays are our missionaries, my assistant pastor, and me. That is by design. I’m not saying that it is a sin to have an outside speaker, or judging churches that do – just saying that a lot of these guest speaking opportunities seem to correspond with a new book or ministry or outreach program the speaker has just initiated. The Sunday worship service should not be used as the Christian version of the way the world does the book tour circuit on cable TV shows.
Steve,
So if you buy time on a Chicago radio station, is it because you don’t think Chicago is being served by the local Chicago pastors or is it for the national visibility? Be honest – why would someone put their stuff on a radio station that already has 24/7 preaching?
Pastors used to publish sermons in their local community newspaper – but it was always the newspaper that wanted it.
Go into a Christian bookstore and look at the ‘books’ published by pastors and then ask yourself the question “why are these guys publishing this stuff?”
Because something can be done does not mean that it should be done.
Nelson Mandela has died…
Mark,
Two things can be true at the same time.
I believe that the majority of pastors are godly men doing a good job.
I also believe abuses are many.
I believe the Bible speaks of leaven and loafs…
MLD hits a big one with the celebrity Christian books. There is a professional writer whose blog I follow (as a writer). He is well-known for being able to ghost write under a short deadline, often writing the book that some famous person or one-hit author can’t get done. He admits to having written numerous Christian books though he isn’t a believer.
Honoring his contracts, this non-believing writer won’t reveal who he ghost-wrote for. He has more integrity than the Christian celebrity or his/her publishing house, who put out the book under false pretense.
Just because you can have the gift-of-gab doesn’t mean you can also write. But heh, why let that stop you?
EricL,
I’ve often wondered about that…
#45 – Would not be complete without a John ‘Warlike’ Montgomery entry.
MLD – I don’t buy radio time in Chicago.
But I bet if I looked at a random station that had 24/7 preaching like you describe – that most of those programs are put there by pastors from outside the area. Maybe even a couple dead ones like J. Vernon McGee. The station could not exist without them (in that Christian teaching format) – so if you are against the concept of Christian Bible teaching radio, just say so.
Now, you’ve sent me some Lutheran YouTube clips before. Why are they making those?
And guys like John Wesley were not simply putting their sermons in the local newspaper.
Steve,
You are losing the context battle here of the article. I am saying that guys like Caner and Driscoll have issues because they fight to get on the national stage and to stay there.
If Driscoll just ministered to his church, his life would be much easier and the rest of the world would not be missing anything.
Back to buying time on out of area radio stations, I know you don’t buy time in Chicago – you buy time in your zip code, but those who do, is it because they feel that those areas are under served or is it part of a climb to be nationally known?
Was John Wesley’s publications more about money making or getting information out? I see a huge difference.
There are a few things people need to understand about the corporation, one is building a brand to gain and increase market share and develop new revenue streams that are on time (speaker fees) and continual such as books, cd, radio etc. One has to leverage some type of shtick to do that. The more controversial the shtick the better. It is predicated on the “reality tv model” which has proven to be lucrative. It does have horrible implications on society, shallow representation, can deeply wound people and other trivial situations but these can be mitigated through the use of intimidation, legal action and other corrective measures to insure the brand is protected and promoted.
As one grows older depending on which franchise they are involved in within the overall conglomerate depends on how they have to change, they can become more firebrand or the elder statesmen roll. Both work quite well and are a good way to continue to be “relevant” and far far far far far far………far more important lucrative.
Jesus never did it that way but what does He know?
Two things about John Wesley
1.) I wonder how much he published vs what was published after he died.
2.) John Wesley preached at a time when there was not a church on every corner and that was a way to spread the word.
An evangelist may be a different story. Billy Graham wasn’t a pastor to anyone, but he had a job to do.
Evey city already has 24/7 radio preaching – if someone has a special message, perhaps they should buy radio time in foreign countries.
I saw Mark D last night on a FB clip where he was on Glenn Beck. Why is Driscoll on Glenn Beck?
Eric that was truly interesting, I had found that true to some degree in some circumstances true when it comes to copyright materials and using lon licensed software. I even pay for my shareware and donate to freeware that I use. Stupid me!!
But I wish so much to write but do to several visual and perceptual issues I have a very hard time. I admire people who write clearly and with passion. I loved Michaels writing and others on this blog. I really enjoy reading works by Christians that offer a flavor of having walked the road they are writing about if that makes sense.
You are losing the context battle here of the article
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I was responding to your crazy idea that a pastor should seek to limit the influence he has in the world. (You ignored the Lutherans on youtube by the way)
Chile makes a good point. And to keep with the Wesley example, it is my understanding he practically is as well-known for his giving away any wealth as he is for his preaching. Motive is huge.
MLD – every city already has 24/7 radio preaching? Find me one example where 24/7 is all local pastors. Just one that isn’t out of Wayne’s World’s basement that is. A real station.
” Why is Driscoll on Glenn Beck?” Gain market share, increase the brand same reason they hold the elephant room conferences.
By the way I think its fine to have a radio presence outside of your zip code but there is a difference between that and hawking your wares all around the country, wanting to be on a giant screen in a dozen churches around the world. Those things are not bad in and of themselves but, in my opinion, there is a line crossed when one sensationalizes many aspects of their life or doctrine or what ever just to stay in front of the camera. I do not think that honors Christ, again just my opinion.
Steve, it’s not that they aren’t local, the question is why are they buying here in SoCal? On KWVE they have a Scotsman from Cleveland (I don’t know his name)on the station – why is he here? Does he feel we have no adequate teachers – or is he building national recognition?
So, his national campaign drives up the radio rates and the local guys are squeezed out.
And that’s another question that needs to be addressed – why don’t these radio stations have any Lutherans on?
This is a long read about the Doug Phillips situation, there is no way I can confirm all the alleged situations and “abuses” but I have been reading a great deal on this situation. One of the posters purports to be a neighbor and tells of some very serious issues. I am not a very brave person when it comes to this type of stuff and that bothers me about me. But this man as depicted in what I have read truly scares me. I have met people who were like, how he is portrayed, and those people were extremely dangerous, physically and emotionally. This is just my opinion on a public situation of a public person
http://tinyurl.com/olxku4h Here is the link look for an auther called “WomanforFreedom” I really respect Julie Anne.
“why don’t these radio stations have any Lutherans on?”
Boring.
🙂
Steve,
We actually have a Christian TV Station in Memphis, that the large majority of the programs on it are actually local.
It only has maybe 4 hrs out of the 24 hr. schedule that is not local.
It does have Adrian Rogers, but he was local.
From the amount of non-local, though it is obvious they are bucking the trend of “put on the big money makers”
But, the programs are a mixed bag. Some good stuff, some bad stuff and some just weird stuff.
Actually, some programs are right out of the Wayne’s World basement though.
As for Lutheran radio shows, I actually liked listening to “The Lutheran Hour” while riding to church on Sunday morning in South Dakota.
The Lutherans were big up there.
I’m a bit of a hypocrite, because I’m glad that Adrian Rogers was broadcast outside of his local region.
Josh,
“Boring.”
I hadn’t thought of it that way, but you know, you take away the fog machines, the Jesus Jumbo and the cool guy haircuys, all you are left with is a guy preaching.
I always figured the Lutheran guy couldn’t get the radio spot was the sermons are too short and you couldn’t fill the 30 min time slot. 🙂
I had to google Doug Phillips – I guess you have to be in homeschooling to know who he is. I read a Huff Post article – so now I know
You should get together a Lutheran 6 man tag-team of preachers. They could each do a five minute sermon then tag out to the next guy. 🙂
How does a fog machine enhance a radio broadcast? 🙂
You know who I think is boring? Charles Stanley.
He’s probably the most influential preacher in this part of the country. My pastor considers him a mentor. I’ve never made it through a whole sermon.
Billy Graham after about 1990. Early Billy Graham is riveting to watch. Later Billy…not so much.
Anyone else spot how swiftly the comments in response to the Trueman article got whittled down from 47 to about 13? Or that there’s a bunch of Mefferd material published on her blog in the last month that can’t even be called up via The WayBack Machine now? Interesting, if unsurprising, developments.
I agree with Josh on early Billy Graham.
It is riveting.
WTH,
The whole thing is starting to smell like a coverup.
About all I could do was tweet my discontent to his publishers
The issue with plagierism isn’t with the authors, it is with the publishers and editors. If it gets by them, they are party to it. Anyone can check on the veracity of a person’s writing as there are readily available programs (free) that can identify source materials instantly. Christian publishers are secular organizations which publish religious subject matter to a lucrative market. Another secular organization will be the one which straightens out this matter…the courts.
but that will only happen if the uncredited author files suit. The church will not bat an eye.
fil,
That about covers it…
Nelson Mandela did a lot for his people
Turd.
“Rick Santorum compares ObamaCare to Apartheid”
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/12/06/3030141/rick-santorum-obamacare-mandela/
“Does he feel we have no adequate teachers – or is he building national recognition?”
And what would be wrong with him doing that, if he wanted to and the Lord permitted him to? Just because it offends your personal sensibilities, obviously the Lord doesn’t feel the way you do about it.
Andy, I just asked the question of motivation
1.) it’s pretty arrogant to think that other local pastors are inadequate in caring for their locals
2.) It’s even more arrogant to think that you, in comparison can not only take care of your locals, but have enough left over to go pick up the slack in the other areas
As I said, the Caners and the Driscolls are evidence this does not work. I think we also saw it when Heitzig went outside of his zip code – or the Smith debacle trying to build and maintain a network of radio stations.
Why do my thoughts offend YOUR personal sensibilities?
The God who doesn’t stop people like Driscoll and Caner is the same God who doesn’t stop MLD or RB or me.
The same radio stations that play MaGee, Begg and Jeremiah can also play Meyers and Dart. Choose ye this day.
MLD – To an earlier question. The issue to me is why the radio stations are sending ads to me to buy time on their stations. I’m not a celebrity..and according to you they ought to just fill up the calendar with local guys..no problem.
Needless to say I don’t agree with the whole “they raise the rates to squeeze the local guys out” idea…
Found this on twitter a few minutes ago.
http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2013/12/06/mefferd-producer-resigns-driscoll-controversy/
“Although it is not clear why Mefferd removed her content regarding the accusations against Driscoll or whether she was pressured, the Christian Post learned that Tyndale House has some sort of media partnership with Salem Radio Network and Mefferd’s radio show is a member of Salem National, a subsidiary of Salem Communications Corporation.”
http://www.christianpost.com/news/fallout-from-radio-show-hosts-allegations-that-pastor-mark-driscoll-plagerized-includes-deletion-apology-and-producers-resignation-110271/
Derek,
Thank you for #118.
My contempt for Driscoll is almost boundless at this point.
You know, Josh had it right. Money and power.
Caner, Driscoll and the publishers are protecting both of these things.
Mefford got caught in the middle of it, but if that article is true, then she is basically doing the same thing. Protecting her position and her job/money.
Now, many will say, well they don’t blame her, after all Driscoll is the one to really blame, why should she suffer for it?
If so, so much for Christian media, it is just as much in bed with it’s own powers that be as any other media outlet is.
Copy the world and act like them is all I see here.
Janet should not have to suffer the loss of her livelihood and career because she told the truth about a liar and cheater.
It’s easy to say she should when you’re not the one who will pay her families bills and help her find a new career..
There is one man to blame for this and he should be the one to suffer.
If I had my way we’d swap Saeed for Driscoll…and I wouldn’t be involved in any campaign to bring him home.
MIchael,
If no one reports then he faces no blame and suffers not one iota.
Therefore, who cares, let all of them do as they please.
Not much a journalist without bringing things to light that people should know about.
That is sort of the point or you are just another propagandist.
Maybe, she needs to start the transition to a new career then. Cause, you gotta be a little gutsy and stand up when you are a hard hitting interviewer.
I agree on swapping Saeed for Driscoll.
“I agree on swapping Saeed for Driscoll.”
LOL! Great trade, in fact we could add to it, BG, SH, Mahaney, Benny Hinn, Jan Crouch, Ed Young, Furtick, Bentley and some others. It’s a package deal!
“Although it is not clear why Mefferd removed her content regarding the accusations against Driscoll or whether she was pressured, the Christian Post learned that Tyndale House has some sort of media partnership with Salem Radio Network and Mefferd’s radio show is a member of Salem National, a subsidiary of Salem Communications Corporation.”
Total bullshit! This is why I stopped writing on Christian Post, they put pressure on me to moderate some of my positions and tone it down. F them. I went back to my own blog.
Once you make “ministry” or Christian/Philosophy a business, an income source, you are compromised as you are beholding first and foremost to that monthly paycheck. Everything else is secondary.
“Why do my thoughts offend YOUR personal sensibilities?”
Nothing you said offends me. I find your view, hillarious, and I pointed that out. Because it is ironic that your view is being promoted on a blog that reaches (potentially) the world. As if there are no regional bloggers that can publish their views, they need you to come and do it for them… please in the future make sure your views are published only locally, so as not to reach outside of your set boundaries 😉
Andy,
1.) I am not a pastor, hired to a congregation.
2.) One of the functions is to create an intellectual property for that church. What gives that pastor the right to take that intellectual property, that belongs to the church, and make it his own?
3.) When these nationally known pastors leave their church to go visit their radio congregations around the country are they not neglecting their own congregation who is paying their salary?
4.) You ca be a fanboy – I’m not.
One of the functions is to create an intellectual property for that church
—————————————————————–
Wow. MLD, are you saying having a recording ministry is a FUNCTION of the pastorate.To leave behind a bunch of messages for those willing to grace the doors of the church but not for anyone else in the outside world?
Now, before you obfuscate – you know I am already on the same page as you concerning “work product” – but that’s not what you are saying here this time.
And as an aside, the pastor is hired to a congregation. What if the people who hired him not only allow but encourage such a radio ministry. You still have a beef?
If all the money goes back directly to the church that is fine. But if you check out most of these guys, they have set up their own separate ministry that is not part of the church itself, and all their radio show monies go to them… not the church who ‘contracted’ them for the work.
Actually, this kind of ministry is quite unique. I doubt that a Boeing engineer can take his work product at the end of the day and sell it on the open market under his own company banner … but that is what many of these ‘radio ministries’ do.
I sense MLD just likes to take a side and argue it until the person grows bored with it. It’s so silly, and of course, nobody is going to follow his advising.
Andy,
“nobody is going to follow his advising.”
You are 100% correct – I do not expect any of these guys to follow my advise of putting the radio ministry money back into the church.
At least with you I now know that I was clear and made my point.
Re: #122
Well, it looks like she has the stones for the work she is in after all.
Good for her.