The Sojourner Among Us

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  1. Believe says:

    Pretty powerful scriptural argument for helping these poor people who are suffering because of an impotent (and corrupt) Mexican government…a lawless Drug Cartel…and an insensitive neighbor to the north.

    It’s also another reason why we may see certain “conspiracy theories” come true…

    The Amero and the North American Union would address this issue by combining Mexico, the U.S. and Canada into a Euro type association…with an Interpol type of enforcement arm…a common currency…and a blurring of borders…

    Interesting that there is beginning to be a Theological argument that would support this.

  2. Bryan Stupar says:

    This raises a very important question,
    should we place a higher priority to that which protects OUR padded American dream (jobs & cost of living) or help the cause of the oppressed, as in this case as you aptly put it, “they come to escape death”?

    Michael, any suggestions of what the Christian community can do?

  3. Michael says:


    More than any other situation I can think of this one points to the difference between being a citizen of the Kingdom of God and a citizen of an earthly nation.

    I think the Biblical imperatives are clear…so are the problems associated with obeying the imperatives.

    We will have to trust God that if we do the right things He will provide the means to do so.

    We desperately need informed, sober, godly discussions that are biblical, not political…but from what I see that isn’t going to happen.

  4. Bryan Stupar says:

    Shame on the religious right, if true, they are rejoicing in the borders being shut to those fleeing for their very, God-given lives.

    I want to know what I can do?
    Open our house?
    Provide living quarters?
    This is some ways reminds me of the dilemma Corrie Ten Boom confronted 50 plus years ago…disobey the law of the land, or show mercy to hunted image bearers.

  5. Bryan Stupar says:

    “This, in” not “This is”

  6. Corby says:

    God’s Law gives us insight as to God’s heart and mind on many issues. The problem is when people try to use it like a buffet to pick and chose what is legit and what isn’t. (Homosexuals will say that we do this when it comes to mixed fabrics and pork, while I say they do the same with murder and theft, but that’s another issue.)

    Spiritually we are not under the law but under grace. Governmentally we are not under the Mosaic Law but under the constitution. But neither of these does away with what God’s heart and mind are on these issues.

    My view in all of this is that I don’t have a problem with immigration so long as it is done legally. The mission of our tax dollars isn’t to solve world hunger or injustice, at least that isn’t the whole of it’s mission. It is to meet the needs of the citizens who pay said tax dollars. Do we not have enough of our own oppressed, homeless, hungry to deal with in our own country? Again, that’s not turning a blind eye, it’s reality. Illegal immigrants in my own town can get free health care. My wife and I can’t and don’t have any. There is something very wrong with that.

    And besides, doen’t “sojourn” refer to a temporary thing anyway? It doesn’t seem correct to equate an illegal immigrant who wants to stay with a sojourner who is passing through.

  7. Believe says:

    This example is why part of me believes the Church should have a powerful voice in Politics.

    This goes back to the Abortion discussion, developing “consensus” within the Church, then organizing and taking action…

    The only way we will be able to help our neighbors to the south…who desperately need help…is to persuade for “consensus”…take control of the argument in a responsible manner…and then push Politically to bring about a resolution.

    Then the other part of me who listens to others who argue against mixing Church and Politics says, “it’s a moral issue…let the Mexican Government deal with it…we’ve got our own problems to worry about and we can’t legislate morality…”

  8. Michael says:


    Our biggest job, the most important and impactful thing we can do, is teach.

    We need to understand the issues and be able to teach a biblical perspective on them to our people.

    If you were to simply exposit to your congregation the verses I printed above, half of them would want to run you out of the pulpit.

    There are political voices who claim to have the imprimatur of Christ that are so loud that truth can’t be heard.

    On this matter, in your location, you run the risk of losing a lot of people if you teach what the Word teaches.

    We all have to make a choice about which kingdom we serve…

  9. Em says:

    i haven’t read the comments yet – this is a very sobering situation and far beyond what the Church can handle… it is the situation of which wars are born… our government’s catering to big money and our population’s pacifism is catching up with us – i heard my mother tell stories of the Big Depression (the first one) – people (friends) would show up at the door at meal-time and her mother would set extra places at the table, already set for 8, cook more potatoes and they’d make their meager meal stretch – looks like that’s what we do now, eh?

  10. Michael says:

    For a brief, excellent ,overview of the situation please read this…

    If the situation continues to deteriorate we will indeed have a war on our border…

  11. Em says:

    the sobering fact is that while there are just plain good folk fleeing to the United States… living in an area that is, maybe 30% or more populated by these folk – both legal and illegal – here is what i see: they bring a work ethic and a certain sweetness that is over-shadowed by a strong contempt for the laws of the land (ingrained thru their experiences south of the border, i think) – they are strong on vigilante justice and breaking any laws that get in the way of their objectives… we’ve got our work cut out for us

  12. Believe says:

    I believe it is important for Pastors to speak on this issue…

    Often, laity and Political leadership is looking for justification to do certain things.

    Remember Luther’s “Divine Right of Kings” doctrine during the Reformation…and his teachings he had to come up with to quell violence that ensued from his initial teachings…

    Religion and Politics are oft intertwined…whether we acknowledge it or not.

  13. Another Voice says:

    My thoughts on a Christian response.

    1) Will we allow God to search our hearts to make sure there is no racism found therein?
    2) Will we allow another to share a view different from ours without quick dismissal and assumptions as to selfish motive or worse, accusing him/her of racism?
    3) Will we allow ourselves to really meditate on what life must be like for these Mexicans who love their families as much as we do. To ponder that, but for God’s grace, it could be us born in that nation instead of the USA.
    4) Will we recognize that American citizens, including many of our brethren in Christ, are suffering terribly because of our nation’s current border situation. Not just ‘inconvenienced’ but suffering.

    As to point 4 – I lost a loved one who was killed by an illegal alien. The police were a little too politically correct, and the killer was able to escape over the border. No justice for us (noting the Bible verses quoted above). Having said that, I do not have a racist bone in my body. Racism is just about the vilest sin I can imagine, especially if held by a professor in Jesus Christ. I have never indicted the innocent for the crimes of the guilty. Of course, I can’t tell you how many times I have directly been called a racist by another – including some of my ‘brothers and sisters’ in Christ.

    Anyway – I think those four points provide a needed starting point. Since we rarely see those four points in tandem in the life of one individual, we rarely see intelligent, compassionate discussion on the topic.

    Maybe this thread will be the exception.

  14. Believe says:

    This is where Rhetoric comes into play.

    Look at the poor showing by Botsford on Larry King. Extremely weak rhetoric. He was unprepared to give an answer.

    All, but the Faithful, were left scratching their head and siding with King and Knapp…while TH played it down the middle.

  15. Michael says:


    That’s pretty accurate.

    I will confess that this is personal for me…I’ve been there numerous times and came away obsessed with the place.

    We’ve been to the places that the article describes…the shacks made from pallets and old tires with no running water and stolen electricity.

    We were assisted in our missions by a young man on fire for Christ who drove us into the different parts of hell in his taxi to deliver the Gospel.

    We recently found out that he was one of the 4992 who have been slaughtered…

  16. Michael says:


    God bless you…thank you for sharing that.

    My heart goes out to you but rejoices that grace is there with your grief.

  17. fyi says:

    As Christians, we are to obey the law of our land. Paul makes that clear. But there are also times when human law and God’s law (law of love) conflict. Peter experienced one such moment and determined that he was to do what God said and not what man said in such cases. Before the drug violence was so publicly known, we had Mexicans coming here just to be able to feed their families. (I understand that doesn’t describe all who come, just the majority) How can we say it’s wrong for a man to want to work and provide for his family? It, too, is a Biblical imperative. Yet many professing believers believe only those who come legally are entitled to a job. The problem, of course, is that it is a 20-year process to become legal and families need to eat now. And, now, since the issue has changed in many cases to a fight to stay alive, how could we possibly deny anyone the opportunity to escape to a safe place just to stay alive? I know all the economic arguments and I am a man who like the rule of law. But if we punish people for doing what every one of us would do if the situation was reversed, how does that fulfill the law of love? Personally, I will help anyone who shows up find a job and safe haven. Then I will tell them about Jesus.

  18. Michael says:


    They love to hear the Gospel…we handed out hundreds of copies of the Gospel of John there…after the first day they were waiting for us with their families at the foot of the bridge to get more…

  19. Em says:

    AV,” To ponder that, but for God’s grace, it could be us born in that nation instead of the USA.” … well that shoots down predestination 😆

    actually, i know it isn’t funny and whenever i feel sorry for myself i think about India and living on the sidewalks with no place to do anything – in private…

  20. Believe says:

    “our government’s catering to big money and our population’s pacifism is catching up with us”

    The Church’s pacifism, IMO, is what is catching up with us….both Leaders and Laity. We’ve allowed the so-called Christian Right to be our Political Voice…and while there is some good in there…there is also a lot of bad.

    I am constantly at war internally between the Fundie in me…and the Liberal in me.

    Somewhere lies the balance…

    That’s why we must “contend”…and “discuss”…rather than yelling and screaming and polarizing.

    AV’s post was a good example of doing this well…IMO.

  21. Em says:

    AV,” I can’t tell you how many times I have directly been called a racist by another – including some of my ‘brothers and sisters’ in Christ.”

    it seems to me that as soon as one opens ones mouth on the subject, no matter what you’re saying, someone is going to call you a racist

  22. Michael says:


    I am a biblical fundamentalist and I believe that being so demands that I have a social conscience and derive any political beliefs from the pages of Scripture.

    That has resulted in me being what is called “liberal’ in terms of our political system in regard to social issues.

  23. Believe says:

    This goes to Bible interpretation also…IMO.

    FYI and Michael are making a lot of sense.

    There is a “greater truth” in Scripture.

    We are to “obey the laws of the land”…”render unto Caesar what is Caesars”…and God puts Civil Authority in place…etc etc.

    However, we are to help those who are in need…”the least of these”…etc.

    The Bible is inerrant, infallible, and Absolute Truth…”Logos…The Word”…vs. logos…man’s reason.

    Where is the line? God placed our Government in authority over us…as Scripture states….and the Laws of the Land were put in place by those Authorities whom God placed over us…

    There has to be a “greater truth” in this instance…isn’t there?

  24. Not Alone says:

    I hear what you are all saying. I understand your wanting to open your hearts and homes to these people and I agree that something needs to be done in Juarez and the rest of the border cities were these drug battles are being fought, but I don’t agree with illegal immigration. Living in rural Central California, I see the effects of allowing the illegals to settle hear after they are done with seasonal work, it has devastated our economy. It has overwhelmed our emergency rooms with non emergencies because that is the only place that will see them……. But I don’t want to open that can of worms.

    I don’t think illegal immigration it is good for anyone, except those breaking the laws of our land. Laws set up not to oppress us, but to protect us.

    I can’t believe that the media covers more on Iraq then they do on our own border. Those death statistics are staggering and our military needs to step in and help Mexico clean it’s house.

  25. Michael says:

    Not Alone,

    Thank you for hearing me…we need to hear you as well.

    This is devastating to our economy in many ways, including the ones you noted.

    Thats why we need so badly to understand and address the issue in a way that honors God and helps the afflicted.

  26. Michael says:


    The line is always where we have a clear biblical principal…it is at that line that we must disobey the appointed authorities if necessary.

  27. Em says:

    fyi,”Before the drug violence was so publicly known, we had Mexicans coming here just to be able to feed their families.”
    and then along came Caesar Chavez demanding union wages for the field workers – fair enough – except that the result was to shut down the migrants who came into the USA to work for less than we could and they were no longer sending home US dollars that when converted to pesos went a long way to prosperous living when they returned home.
    what were they to do? come in illegally or move north permanently, bringing their families with them
    there’s a big difference between being discerning about laws and an attitude of lawlessness…
    well, this will easily become a book here, if i start rehearsing our slide into where we are now – most of you folks here are of my children’s generation… do you remember hearing in the classroom how important it was to fulfill your dreams and not become the slaves of industry? my children do – that dictum hasn’t worked out too well … IMO
    i’m not too big on social engineering, i guess

  28. Believe says:

    Michael…I am in agreement.

    So how do we determine the “clear biblical principle”…and who has the authority to make that declaration?

    Is it personal…between me and God…or do I look to a Church authority to make that call and then submit to it?

    If it is a Church authority…who do I trust to make that call and then submit?

  29. Another Voice says:

    We talk about confusing the two kingdoms – but I find this works both ways.

    For example, we understand a clear responsibiltiy to care for the poor is mandated by Scripture – yet then is that mechanism supposed to be through government taxation? An argument can certainly be made that this confuses the two kingdoms also.

    In a high-tax state like California, it takes surprisngly little before one is paying 50% of every earned dollar to taxes. (I can and have proved this, but don’t really feel like looking up tax tables. Remember to double SS/Med to its proper 15.35% cost)

    Now, with a relatively high cost of living, to rent, feed and insure a family – there won’t be much left for a lot of folks. And that will show itself often in the decrease in charitable giving amounts available to help the poor – through agencies and/or churches far more efficient and effective than the state and federal government in the stewardship of doing so.

    Yet, much like the kneejerk racism charge, if one argues for lower taxation and less GOVERNMENT benefits, one can easily be charged with an unChristian spirit to the poor. The two kingdoms issue seems forgotten at that point. And thus, we hear of the religious right, but almost never of the religious left.

  30. Not Alone says:

    Our leaders need to put the pressure on Mexico to protect their people. Can you imagine this happening in San Diego? Almost 5000 deaths would be on the news constantly and there would be soldiers on every corner. It would be a war and the bad guys would lose.

  31. Michael says:


    Excellent points…

    Part of the answer…I think…is in these verses.

    “But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content.
    Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.””
    (1 Timothy 6:8; Hebrews 13:5 ESV)

    The problem is…that being content with food and clothing…being content with what we have…is not how I or most people want to live.

    We would have to live sacrificially and that’s too much to ask for most of us.

  32. Michael says:


    There is no longer a magisterial authority unless one is Orthodox or Catholic.

    Thus I go to the Word…and with the word Spirit filled teachers over the centuries.

  33. Michael says:

    Not alone,

    We are paying the Mexican army to slaughter it’s people.

    There is no “war on drugs” in Mexico…there is a “war for drugs”.

    The three main sources of revenue for the country are oil, remittances (illegals sending money back home), and drugs.

    The oil will be gone in nine years.

    Take the drug money out and Mexico collapses.

    Thus, the battle is for who will control the drug money, not stop it.

    The Mexican army wants it…for the Mexican army.

    We give then half a billion a year to try.

  34. Not Alone says:

    The war on drugs is a joke, it was never about winning, it was about keeping drugs on the black market so they can turn a profit. It is the American way, unfortunately. That is the main reason why the pot laws will not pass in California, not because it’s morally wrong, but because it will cut the occupants of our penal system back to real criminals, not the ones our laws have created.

  35. Michael says:

    Not Alone,

    Excellent point.

    We now have the largest per capita prison population the world and drug enforcement is a major industry… that has failed miserably.

  36. Em says:

    Not Alone, with respect,i doubt that the government of Mexico or the USA is going to stop this without either Divine Intervention or an all-out war
    from what information trickles down up here, there are more deaths in the US than one hears totaled on the national news – policing the borders has resulted big marijuana “growing operations” here – been uncovered smack in the middle of the wine vineyards in my part of the world – the warning has gone out from the Forest Service to be very careful in the hills (serious outdoors people up here) – instructions are given on what to do if you stumble onto something – we’ve got a lot going on quietly behind the scenes, but we and may have to come to terms with making some drugs “legal” – gagging on those words as i write them
    for the Body of Christ, the sweet aroma of our Faith that has been historically strong in this country is fading away
    the religious right may be just have the impact of a beached whale…
    what’d she say? dunno

  37. Another Voice says:

    Michael, I think the contentment issue arises when those receiving the government’s aid actually live better than the one’s paying the taxes. Maybe those poor enough to receive aid should be forced to be content with food and clothing too – I’m sure you know the statistics as well as anyone about the cell phones, televisions (with cable), autos and the rest that are more usually than not a part of the aid recepient’s lifestyle in America. Obviously, I am not talking about ALL the poor in America.

    DMW has explained how, because he did things the right way all his life, he is now screwed. Of course, the state encourages him to sin against God by divorcing his wife, and THEN the state will come through. Those of us who pay taxes can’t direct our tax money to go to him and his wife. And we have very little left after taxes to try and give charitably to support those like him and his wife we might personally know.

    There is going to be a dustup I am afraid. Especially when we get to the point we are fast approaching where enough people are excluded from paying ANY federal income taxes that they can control an election.

  38. Michael says:


    I understand and agree for the most part.

    When I brought up being content with having “enough” the premise was that we would have to share till it hurts…and that’s not the American dream.

    There is a need for political wisdom here…with the biggest need being to help create a Mexico that Mexicans don’t want to flee from.

  39. Josh Hamrick says:

    AV – Have you ever spent time with the people in a low-income housing project? These are the people receiving government aid, and trust me, their life style is not at all glamorous or enviable. I don’t know what you’ve read that implies they have it good, but I assure you that it is not true.

  40. Another Voice says:

    Two families with equal expenses and incomes have an unpayable emergency expense of $5000 – which they are forced to put on a credit card.

    Family A can pay the mortgage and can make the minimum payment and figures by cutting back even more, can save a couple hundred a month and can pay off the debt in 3 or 4 years. Of course, a big reason is the large interest he will have to pay on the card. So the kids lose their music lessons, the wife loses that 2nd car (the old 85 Honda) to save insurance fees and they struggle with all errands on the one car. They have food and clothing though and are content.

    Family B decides to screw the mortgage obligation and pays off the debt in a couple of months with little interest. He doesn’t cut back on any expenses. He then looks to the government (i.e. the taxpayer, i.e Family A) for a bailout, which the government is all too happy to provide in exchange for a vote in November.

    Which family is more faithful to the Scripture, especially the part about the wicked borrows and does not repay (Psm 37:21)

    Which family is encouraged by the current political climate, attitudes, and laws?

  41. Em says:

    Josh you raise a good point and we must differentiate between those exploiting the government largess and those who can’t seem to get it together but would like to, i’m sure

  42. Believe says:

    50% of people in the US pay income tax…50% don’t…and the tipping point is being reached where more will not pay than pay.

    Some of this goes back to the “Africa Poor” vs. U.S. poor discussion we’ve had in the past.

    I own a pawn and gun store. Many of my pawn customers are not really poor…they are irresponsible (IMO). They have cell phones, cable, smoke cigs (which are very expensive and taxed heavily), drink alcohol (not a necessity) and dress as well as anyone…and most are fat (so they’re certainly getting plenty of food).

    Many are on welfare, social security, disability and/or unemployment (or a combo of government subsidies). They get heating assistance, food stamps, telephone assistance, rent assistance, child care assistance, health care, dental…

    Not saying this is bad…but it’s not really “poor”…like in Africa where people wake up each day and don’t know what they are going to eat that particular day.

    The people coming over the border from Mexico are truly in need…unlike a large groupo of our “poor”…not saying all of our “poor” aren’t in need…but many are doing just fine…as compared to what I would define as true poverty. Our American “poor” are often just “less rich” than some of us.

  43. Em says:

    AV, Dave Ramsey would tell them to let the credit card slide…food, clothing and shelter for the family come first 🙂

    but he also says nobody needs a credit card… how’r ya gonna do that???

  44. Believe says:

    Josh…many don’t have it “good”…but they don’t have it near as “bad” as in Africa or Mexico.

    Not saying that justifies us being insensitive to our “poor”…but many are “poor” in America because they use the money they are given by the government for drugs, cigarettes and alcohol…rather than being wise with their money.

    I’ll gather some data on what kind of money and benefits a typical “poor” family in the U.S. receives from the Government…and then you can decide if it’s as “poor” as you may define.

    Not arguing…really wanting to gain some “consensus”…I give to help people who are in need…have my whole life…would like to have more to do more…have missed opportunities in the past that I regret…so not trying to justify not giving…we should give and we should help people. Just trying to find the balance…as the issue is complicated by people’s misuse of the funds they are given (often times).

  45. Another Voice says:

    Josh, I’m not up for a political debate. I am just laying some points on the table. You can lay yours.

    If it is your declaration that ONLY “the people in a low-income housing project… are the people receiving government aid” then fine. Live with that belief.

    If it is not your point, then I don’t know why you would say it since I specifically stated that my comments did not reference ALL the poor.

    I pastor a church hit HARD, by unemployment in this economy. Many have lost homes, many are on government aid. I love them, pray with them, help them as best we can with money, information, and advice.

    I’m not up for declaring all of my life’s experiences, over more than two decades in working with people in poverty – both here and abroad (places that make our low income housing look like the Hilton). – Just so I can gain ‘legitimacy’ in the eyes of some when I share my thoughts.

    I should have left after my first post about the four points…(sigh)

  46. Another Voice says:

    AV – Have you ever spent time with the people in a low-income housing project?
    I realized I never answered the question.

    The answer is ‘Yes’..Yes I have.

  47. Michael says:


    You’re making excellent points and keeping us in balance…not fun, but much needed these days. 🙂

  48. Believe says:

    Here is an example of Government Assistance if you are one of California’s “poor”…read through it…there’s a lot of help available:

    If you start adding up all that’s available…including heating assistance, telephone assistance and several other items that are available…if one is diligent in seeking all the aid available…and then is responsible not to buy drugs, alcohol, cigarettes or other frivolous items…it is not very “poor” compared to the world’s definition of “poor”.

  49. Kevin H says:

    I have several relatives that “play” and/or abuse the government system and collect excesses of government benefits. Some of these relatives seemingly end up living at a higher standard of living than my two income family does. Ironically, most of these relatives would even claim to be followers of Christ. So when I consider that, it greatly frustrates and angers me that they do this and are able to get away with it. At the same time, I know there are those who are truly poor and truly need the help. The Juarez situation is a very grave example. There’s no easy answers.

  50. Jim Jacobson says:

    #22 Michael, you said: “I am a biblical fundamentalist and I believe that being so demands that I have a social conscience and derive any political beliefs from the pages of Scripture.

    That has resulted in me being what is called “liberal’, in terms of our political system in regard to social issues.”

    I would say: “I am a biblical fundamentalist and I believe that being so demands that I have a social conscience and derive any political beliefs from the pages of Scripture.

    That has resulted in me being what is called ‘conservative’ in terms of our political system in regard to social issues.”

    How did that happen? 🙂

  51. Michael says:


    I knew I should have defined those terms much more precisely… 🙂

  52. Dave Rolph says:

    Great discussion from everyone, with all perspectives well represented. Another angle that hasn’t been mentioned, that could become way more significant than all other factors is our national birth rate. It takes a birth rate of 1.9 per couple to maintain a culture. In European countries and Canada the birth rates among non-Muslims is around 1.3, while the average Muslim family has over 8 kids. Thus, all of Europe is on track to being a Muslim continent within ten years. Get ready for shariah law everywhere. The United States is the only civilized nation that maintains a close to 1.9 birth rate, and it is only because of the high rate of Hispanic immigrants. Heavy immigration from the South is the only thing that will keep us from being a Moslem country. And the ramifications of that will be staggering, and will dwarf economic problems that we seem so concerned about. If we shut down immigration, illegal or otherwise, you ladies better start shopping for berka’s because we are way to selfish to start having babies. (And by the way, the wave of illegal immigrants is one of the most fertile mission fields in all history. The fields are truly ready for harvest.)

  53. Josh Hamrick says:

    Dave, that is truly the most interesting POV that I have heard on this. Thank you!

  54. Jim Jacobson says:

    I do not think it is wrong or unjust to have laws that govern our borders, “the same rule for the sojourner and for the native”… we have laws, you break them, there is a penalty. The problem is that we have not been enforcing laws that we already have. If left unchecked illegal immigration will nullify our nations ability to do good anywhere. Period.

  55. Believe says:

    Here is California’s Social Services information:

    We already…if one pays taxes…help the poor in this country via our tax dollars…and should help them in addition to our tax “help”…

  56. Jim Jacobson says:

    Dave, I don’t know where you got your numbers… Mark Steyn does a great job with the current demography in “America Alone” … it’s a frightening picture. According to his numbers, the U.S. is barely keeping even.

  57. Michael says:


    Is the solution to enforce laws that have proven not to work or to solve the problem another way or ways?

    For the person in Juarez who will die if he stays or face prison here…which will they choose?

    We are watching the greatest human migration of a people in history…and we think we stop it by force?

  58. Xenia says:

    Michael, I love your heart on this matter. It’s not what I usually hear when I’m talking to conservative Christians.

    And you rightly put a portion of the blame on NAFTA. I read an article about a man who ran a small electronics factory in Mexico City. He made radios, which sold well. Then along comes NAFTA and in comes the flood of Sony and Panasonic radios, dirt cheap and probably made better. No one bought his radios anymore. He had to let most of his employees go and now his former factory is a warehouse for Sonys and Panasonics. Multiply this little story by a hundred thousand other examples and you see what has happened to Mexico, which has always had severe financial problems anyway.

    I saw a documentary a few years ago about what it takers to get from, say, southern Mexico or Guatemala to the US. They were leaving their villages with extreme sadness and reluctance but because of NAFTA (and other reasons) there was no work at all in their villages. The journey to the US border was incredible. Families with kids jumping onto moving trains, etc. What courage that takes! Personally, I would be happy to welcome such brave and ingenious people into our country. But no one makes that trip unless they are desperate. And you’ve all heard the tragic stories of coyotes who treat their clients like cattle.

    Our town, Seaside, is filling up with Hispanics. They are good neighbors. They are hard workers and do the jobs my sons and daughters would never take. Hispanic grocery stores are springing up all over town, within walking distance. These businesses are a very positive thing in our neighborhood. They took old decrepit stores that the former owners neglected and painted and planted flowers and put taquerias inside, with full-service butcher shops, etc. I shop at them all the time.

    But I do understand the impact all this unexpected guests have on border towns. It’s like inviting ten people for dinner but fifty show up. Yet here I sit in our house. There’s a TV in every room, each person who lives here has their own computer, we have two cars, we have a freezer so bulging with food I can barely get the door to stay shut, we all have closets full of clothes, two family members have iPhones and who knows what all… it’s am embarrassment of riches. And I think we should be embarrassed.

    We Americans…. not only are we not starving but now they are saying the major health problem in this country is obesity. We are fat yet we want to deny our hungry neighbors a morsel of bread.

    Does God really care about national borders? Well, in Deuteronomy and Joshua there are borders between tribes so He does acknowledge the concept. Yet along with the borders there is also much said about they way immigrants are to be treated because remember, you were once a stranger in Egypt.

    By the way, before this current rash of murders in Juarez there were may years of femicide, where hundreds of young Mexican women were murdered and their mutilated bodies were dumped in the desert. Las Muertas de Juarez. I don’t think these murders were drug related, either, although they were probably another bad consequence of NAFTA.

    I have too much to say on this topic. If this topic was being discussed on any other conservative Christian board / blog besides this one it would be ugly. God bless Michael Newnham!

  59. Michael says:


    That’s amazing…wow…

  60. Believe says:

    Here is California’s Social Services information:

    We already…if one pays taxes…help the poor in this country via our tax dollars…and should find additional ways to help…as God leads.

    Now as far as the truly poor and desperate Mexicans go…I’m open to a better way of integrating them into our “better way of doing things” in America…so they can escape the failure which is their Government and Drug Cartels.

  61. Jim Jacobson says:

    DR, that was not intended to sound like “I don’t know where you get your numbers… you idiot” Just saying, so I’m not misread as insulting! 🙂

  62. Believe says:


  63. Believe says:

    Here is California’s Social Services information:

    We already…if one pays taxes…help the poor in this country via our tax dollars…

    Now as far as the truly poor and desperate Mexicans go…I’m open to a better way of integrating them into our “better way of doing things” in America…so they can escape the failure which is their Government and Drug Cartels.

  64. Jim Jacobson says:

    Michael, I wish I knew the answer, but clearly something has to change. I fear (not literally) that left as is, this will be part of the big picture that takes away our economic strength (whats left of it). It’s that economic strength that has done a lot to fund the spread of the gospel, and preventing lots of evil to go unchecked.

  65. Michael says:


    Thank you for the blessing…this community has humbled me to tears today with the openness to listen and think.

    The numbers for Juarez…40% of the business have closed in the last year and a half, 25% of homes are now empty.

    50% of high school age kids are not in school…40% of those have expressed a desire to become contract killers for the cartels.

    The population was once estimated at between 1.5 and 2 million, today it is approximately a million.

    I could go on…

  66. Believe says:

    Here is California’s Social Services information:

    If you go through the rest of this website…there are tons of benefits available. If one is diligent, you could qualify and receive an awful lot of help.

    We already…if one pays taxes…help the poor in this country via our tax dollars…

    Now as far as the truly poor and desperate Mexicans go…I’m open to a better way of integrating them into our “better way of doing things” in America…so they can escape the failure which is their Government and Drug Cartels.

  67. Josh Hamrick says:

    I think if the economy continues to decline, people will be more open to hearing the gospel.

  68. Tim says:

    If’ I’m being perfectly honest, this is an area that has me conflicted.

    On the one hand, I read the verses Michael quoted & see the families that are just trying to provide food for their households, and my heart goes out to them. Why wouldn’t we, as Christians, seek for their good?

    On the other hand, I see laws being flagrantly broken every day, an economy in shambles, and other neighbors getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop because people cross the border illegally & then claim it’s racist to speak of issues that address the problem.

    This is an area that has no good solution to my limited viewpoint. For me, I’ll show compassion to those I meet & trust God to work out the rest.

    One quick comment to Xenia:
    “They are hard workers and do the jobs my sons and daughters would never take.”

    That’s not exactly true. They (many times) do the jobs for the extremely poor wages that our sons & daughters would never be expected to take. It’s one thing to provide them employment; it’s another thing to give them cash under the table at a rate that just barely keeps them coming back for more. There are a lot of employers out there who take unfair advantage of illegal workers for obscene personal profits.

  69. Jim Jacobson says:

    And then there is the nation of Mexico to consider… if we open the borders to them fully, who will be left? I think we need to continue to support the work there to change the heart of the people. There are a lot of ways to be involved. There are good men, and good works to support. (just another angle)

  70. Believe says:

    The economy is headed for a cliff (again)…we are Greece in 10 years if we don’t change our ways.

    We have “safety nets” in this country that require lots of money to fund.

    We have only 50% of people in this country paying any income tax.

    We have a 14 Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit and are now on the verge of passing the tipping point into not being able to service the debt properly without paying it down.

    Something has to give…and will.

    California (alone) has over 550 Billion Dollars of unfunded liabilities with respect to pension funds (state obligations).

    There’s much more to the equation…but not putting out these facts to create fear…but to interject that we have some serious issues coming…which (as I’ve stated before) will challenge the Church…and will be a good opportunity for sharing Christ…as people’s security in money will be continue to be shaken.

  71. Xenia says:

    >>This is an area that has no good solution to my limited viewpoint. For me, I’ll show compassion to those I meet & trust God to work out the rest.<<

    That's all any of us can do. Despite my long-winded emotional comment up above, I realize the problem isn't as simplistic as I make it sound. I can't do anything about the greater problem but I can show respect and compassion to those I meet.

    One thing I've learned as I studied history is that things can take an unexpected change. Stuff can happen that no one can predict. Dave's post is amazing- the Mexicans might be our national salvation!

  72. Jim Jacobson says:

    Believe #66, What? I could have swore I heard the POTUS say just today that recovery and jobs are on the way back….

  73. Jim Jacobson says:

    Further reason to pray for our elected officials and vote for the ones that come up with common sense solutions, not ones that just make promises.

  74. Believe says:

    Pastor Dave R’s post is factual consideration…and a scenario that is one of the contingencies being prepared for within our Government ranks.

    Democracy is great…until you have a voting block of Sharia Law supporters who outnumber Humanist Liberals, Moderates and Conservative Christians.

    One Theory I’ve wrestled with is that the One World Religion and One World Government that seems to appear in Bible Prophecy…could be a Muslim Dominated World Religion and Government…something no one is considering…

  75. Another Voice says:

    I will add this point, and give something for the pastors to chew on in the process.

    If we all agree that the current situation is a mess, no matter your political persuasion…the politicians created this mess, and it is their responsibility to fix it. Open borders, closed borders, amnesty, deportation…whatever…that is what elections are for. We can react based on the actions (or for now the inactions) of the state.

    However, if the illegal alien begins to be used as a scapegoat…

    What do you do if the INS shows up at your church checking IDs of those gathered to peacefully worship? Have you thought about this, or better yet, have you mentally prepared for it?

    Me? I would be going to jail. I would (peacefully) not allow it on our property.

    I hope you all would consider doing the same for those the Lord has brought your way.

  76. Believe says:

    JJ…the POTUS says a lot of things…the propaganda is thick…there are serious Economists who disagree with the Prez…

    The only way to continue the momentum is to increase the National Debt and hide further losses on Bank Balance sheets via loose accounting standards.

    The fact is…there is a staggering debt…and when the “bill” comes due once again…there will be another dip.

    One of two scenarios…

    1. Lost two decades like Japan.
    2. Great Depression the sequel.

    There really isn’t much of a viable third option…we’ve darn near maxed out the Nation’s Credit Card to fund further “growth”…and now States and Local Municipalities are starving for money.

    The Tsunami coming in 2010 and 2012 (politically) will enforce a tighter fiscal policy…and that will continue the tough times. It is virtually unavoidable.

    The only real option is to Nationalize the banks (George Soros and Roubini) and have the Government force lending to the little guy, the small business, the medium size business…social justice, etc.

    Otherwise, the Big Guys get the dough…the little guys suffer…and it’s going to be a very long slog to work off all the excesses that were created by the last three Bubbles (with the Banks and Wall Street and Big Corporations taking profits the whole way…at the expense of taxpayers and the little guys).

  77. Not Alone says:

    The consistent declining economy has effected all of us in some way. The media created this scare that drove us to were we are and now they are trying to convince us that things are better, I don’t see it here in Ca. The unemployment rate is sky rocketing, the main business here in the Central Valley is farming or was….I’m in the produce business and farms are out of business everyday. Whole parts of the valley have turned to dust bowls. Many of the migrant workers are on welfare because of this and its not because of drought. It’s because of liberal activists and this damn fish called the Delta Smelt, which isn’t even native to Ca. We have to send the water, that once hydrated our crops, to the ocean for this fish.

    We aren’t producing fresh produce like we used to, it’s all swinging to importing now. Look at your fresh produce this summer and check the labels (if you can find one) to see where they come from. For a short time you will see it from here, but most of it from August to February comes from others countries. It’s cheaper to grow it in Mexico, Chili, Venezuela and other countries who have little or no pest control laws, then it is to grow here anymore. We’ll get skinny again, when we have to get out in the fields and work them ourselves, but that won’t happen until this ridiculous consumer society built on credit, has finally busted.

    I love my country, but I hate what we have become.

  78. Michael says:


    I’ll either make your bail or go with you…


  79. Tim says:

    AV –
    I had that very conversation with a former co-worker a few years ago when the illegal immigration debate was rampant. I told him the same thing you’re saying. Those who walk through the doors of this little fellowship in Texas are going to be ministered to, given the gospel, and taught the Scriptures. I would not permit any raids/inspections in this building.

  80. Michael says:


    Wow again…you guys are lifting my soul.

  81. Jim Jacobson says:

    Believe #70, you might be interested in this former Muslim-terrorist-now-born-born-again-christian on this idea of muslim dominated world…

  82. Believe says:

    AV said, “What do you do if the INS shows up at your church checking IDs of those gathered to peacefully worship? Have you thought about this, or better yet, have you mentally prepared for it?

    Me? I would be going to jail. I would (peacefully) not allow it on our property. ”

    I like this type of passion and stand for what is a greater truth in Scripture…there are many other issues…along with this one…that we should be as impassioned about, IMO.

  83. Not Alone says:

    I find the Muslim one world government theory very interesting and very probable. Especially here in the states. We will politically correct oursleves into submission. But I welcome it, that means the Lord is coming soon.
    Come on Lord!

  84. Believe says:

    NA…”I hate what we’ve become…”

    I hear you.

  85. Believe says:

    JJ…your 1:58pm…I was not aware that there were others with similar theories…very interesting.

    It is what makes “sense” to me.

    How will the world “come together” under a one world government and one world religion and one world leader…unless it is forced?

    Which world religion rules with force and crushes dissent?

    Which world religion lays claim to the Holy Land…as well as the Jews?

    Which world religion will die for its beliefs?

  86. Another Voice says:

    Throughout history, economic crisis has brought out both dictators and scapegoats.

    If we pastored in Europe in the 1930s, I would hope we would have prayerfully prepared ourselves BEFORE it was necessary, once we could see the writing on the wall as to the Jews.

  87. Not Alone says:

    The INS showing up will never happen, the days of deportation are over. You don’t deport 20 million people. You give them amnesty and voting power to keep your party in office and the welfare state alive and strong. They may deport a few here and there, but for one of you to leave your family and go to jail over that is nuts, they will be back in a few weeks. Our border is a revolving door, it’s a joke. Most of our crops are picked by illegals, it’s the only way a farmer can afford to stay in business. The illegals come and go across our borders as they please. I personally know many who take their cash home to Mexico every Easter and Christmas and feed many people with it, then come right back year after year, no green card, no nothing.

    Point is, 20 million people will not put up with a few 1000 INS agents trying to move them for very long before they rise up and do something about it..

  88. Pardon the Interruption says:

    I don’t understand all this talk of our economy in shambles.

    Each person on this forum is among the most wealthy that have ever lived.

  89. Believe says:

    AV said, “Throughout history, economic crisis has brought out both dictators and scapegoats.

    If we pastored in Europe in the 1930s, I would hope we would have prayerfully prepared ourselves BEFORE it was necessary, once we could see the writing on the wall as to the Jews.”

    That is also why it is important to make sure our Rhetoric (and doctrine) is clear…and thought out properly.

    Hitler used Luther’s writings about Jews as partial “justification” for what he did to the Jews.

  90. Believe says:

    PTI…we are only “wealthy” as a Nation and as a Citizen…because we are 14 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT.

    If we all had to pony up tomorrow…and pay the bill…we’d all be flat ass broke.

  91. Believe says:

    China, on the other hand, is rich.

    They “Have” more than they “Owe”…

  92. Jim Jacobson says:

    Believe 81, Walid gives a pretty convincing argument that as a former Muslim, he understands Daniel’s prophecies concerning the antichrist better than westerners do.
    He did a lesson at Jack Hibb’s Southern California Prophecy Conference a couple years ago that was pretty amazing. (please, no comments about prophecy conferences)

    Also, interestingly,… wasn’t it in the news not long ago about muslim influence with S. American drug cartels… I thought I remember reading or hearing that they were influencing the use of terror. Hmmmmm.

  93. Jim Jacobson says:

    Believe 81, Walid gives a pretty convincing argument that as a former Muslim, he understands Daniel’s prophecies concerning the antichrist better than westerners do.
    He did a lesson at Jack Hibb’s Southern California Prophecy Conference a couple years ago that was pretty amazing. (please, no comments about prophecy conferences)

    Also, interestingly,… wasn’t it in the news not long ago about muslim influence with S. American drug cartels… I thought I remember reading or hearing that they were influencing the use of terror. Hmmmmm.

  94. Jim Jacobson says:


  95. Pardon the Interruption says:


    Wrong. Sorry. You are easily in the top 5% of the world’s wealth even if you are “flat ass broke”. A trip to East Africa might be in order…

  96. Believe says:

    JJ…very interesting…I’ll have to read more of Walid’s work.

  97. Believe says:

    PTI…I agree with that. We are nowhere near truly “poor”…which I stated earlier.

    I should explain myself better.

    We are Fiat system…and we are rich in a practical sense…compared to vast populaces in the rest of the underdeveloped world…and even compared to “emerging” markets.

    We have no idea what “poor” really is…I agree with you.

    My other point about our National Debt…is that our “wealth” is mostly based on Debt and promises to repay…and on Consumerism…and on Banking and Wall Street financial games.

    But, that’s another discussion…you’re right…pertaining to this discussion…we as a Nation are “rich” while our Mexican brothers and sisters to the south…and our African brothers and sisters…our Cuban brothers and sisters…our Hatian brothers and sisters…etc…are truly “poor”…and we are mandated through clear teaching in Scripture…to help them.

  98. Another Voice says:

    The INS showing up will never happen, the days of deportation are over. You don’t deport 20 million people.
    I’m not imagining the INS trying to round up 20 million people.

    I’m imagining corrupt governments during a time of crisis being quite upset at the resistance from those people of faith – and picking and choosing their battles.

    Really no different than the way they pick and choose what businesses to raid today.

    (If that smacks of ‘conspiracy theory’ so be it)

  99. Michael says:

    I get an email update on Juarez every day.

    This is todays:

    “Four people were killed and 5 more injured in a multiple execution in
    the Infonavit Casas Grandes neighborhood. The shooters arrived in
    various vehicles and shot indiscriminately at a group of people on the
    patio of the house. Three died at the scene. One of the people at the
    gathering who was not injured attempted to take some of the wounded to
    the hospital but when he arrived, the commando caught up with the
    driver and killed him there.
    In addition to these 4 killings, there were two bodies found early
    Monday and another 4 killings during the afternoon and night for a
    total of 9 for the day…

    I was not able to find any numbers for Sunday. But the totals I have
    now are 154 for the month of April; for the year 784; and the total
    since January 2008 is now about 5,161.”

  100. Believe says:

    I have a close friend who was in the Army and involved in drug interdiction in Central and South America.

    I also have a Navy Seal friend who has been involved in certain operations.

    We have the ability to do something about much of what is going on south of the border and elsewhere…however, we lack the political will to do so…and we have enemies within the media and within and without our own borders who really don’t want us to “win” with regards to these types of issues.

    The situation is very complicated. I can’t share details…but let me just say that there is much the average citizen is completely unaware of.

    JJ…thanks for those links.

  101. Believe says:

    Michael…these are the times we need to go OT on the bad guys…but the more “liberal” side of the political spectrum (while making many good points on social issues) often gets in the way of our ability to do something practical and effective in defeating our “enemies”…the “bad guys”.

    So, we get the mess we have become…we play political games…get our soldiers killed…do police actions instead of killing the enemy OT style…and then complain (justifiably) when evil reigns virtually unchecked.

  102. centorian says:

    there are no covert operations in Latin America….. meanwhile, back to the subject…..

    I find it compelling that these people are in some cases running for their lives. In some cases do we take on a similar role as the abolishionist did in the 1800?

    out for the night

  103. Jim Jacobson says:

    Believe,… not trying to hijack this thread, but if you want to see the teaching about Muslim-Antichrist it’s here in pieces. 2008 SCPC at Chino Hills. Interestingly, these messages have been removed from the DVD available on the SCPC website. ??

  104. Michael says:


    Who are the “enemy”…the “bad guys”?

    Stop the drugs and the country collapses inside itself almost instantly.

    Who buys the drugs…we do.

    The only reason they are profitable is because they’re illegal…

  105. Believe says:

    Cool…thanks JJ.

  106. Jim Jacobson says:

    so,… open the boarders and legalize the drugs… ?

  107. Jim Jacobson says:

    Only after you disarm the rest of us… lol

  108. Believe says:

    Michael…that’s a good argument.

    The “bad guys” are the Drug Cartels…and the murderous thugs who are their enforcers.

    Much like with Prohibition…when you outlaw a vice that people are going to get one way or the other….you place power into the hands of the “mafia”…

    If you legalize narcotics…marijuana, etc…and tax it…you may kill a few birds with one stone…interesting.

    It takes the power out of the hands of the Drug Cartels…provides revenue for the “government”…and can be regulated.

    Might stop all the killing also.

    People are going to get the drugs whether or not they are illegal…just like with guns. The bad guys get guns no matter how many laws you pass restricting them.

    Our prison system is full of drug offenders who are non-violent. It costs our system a fortune in enforcing the drug laws.


  109. jlo says:

    Jim Jacobson, I would not be surprised if it was because of Walids’ teaching that the antichrist would come out of Islam that you no longer find them available on either the SCPC or online at CCCH.

  110. Michael says:


    I know a a lot of facts…I don’t have a lot of wisdom about what to do with them.

    Legalizing marijuana would solve a lot of economic issues in both countries.

  111. Michael says:


    You’re closer to the truth there than most of us are comfortable with…

  112. Believe says:

    Michael…Oregon has a good climate for growing marijuana…but I’m sure you know nothing about that from your pre-regenerated days 🙂

  113. Believe says:

    Interesting….we don’t want to “legislate morality” with regards to abortion…but we “legislate morality” with regards to narcotics and marijuana…

  114. Jim Jacobson says:

    JLO, yeah, I wondered cause he was back at the most recent one. Hmmm I DO know that he is “handled” by an agressive business guy,… maybe a copyright thing?

    Michael: Yeah it would solve a lot of issues, legalize it all and let us have our ammo back?

  115. Michael says:


    I was a drinker…and drinkers and dopers didn’t get along.

    I know I can no longer take Trey through the mountains I grew up in…too many traps and wired plantations from the dope growers.

  116. Michael says:


    Not sure…but it’s starting to make sense to me.

    I haven’t noticed people doing without drugs that want them…

  117. Jim Jacobson says:

    Agreed. 🙁

  118. Jim Jacobson says:

    I am all for medical use of marijuana… hey I got a migraine.

  119. Believe says:

    JJ…LOL…the Rastafarians have a lot of Scriptural justification for use of the ‘herb’…LOL 🙂

  120. Jim Jacobson says:

    I know too many people who are suffering, it’s crazy that the docs hand out vicodin and oxy like candy. If it could ease sufferers during chemo… light em up.

  121. Believe says:

    So…consensus reached so far is that if our lives intertwine with an illegal alien who needs help…food, clothing, medical assistance…it is our Scriptural obligation as Christians to help them…regardless of what our Government Authorities say about it.

    If they seek refuge at our Churches…we should give them safe harbor…and let the chips fall where they may…even if it is “against the law”…and even if we faced jail time.

    Just like the with the missionaries in Haiti…they should do what they believe God called them to do with regards to the taking the Children from Haiti over to the Dominican Republic….or is that different?

  122. Em says:

    a couple of positives today – GM and Ford are doing good and there’s serious talk (i’m for it) of making the large mega-banks illegal – maybe we’ll prosper yet and be able to absorb all who come here looking for ‘freedom’
    “In such a time as you think not the Son of Man cometh” does that mean a time of peace and prosperity or a time when things are so bad that we’re not thinking? and which coming is it referring to?

  123. Believe says:

    JJ…I have an in-law who is in debilitating pain and has lost his appetite. He is so skinny. It makes me and my wife so sad.

    They give him Rush Limbaugh Candy (OxyContin) which is basically refined Opium…but won’t give him the Mary Jane. It is ridiculous.

    The MJ would take a much less terrible toll on his system…and he’d have an appetite.

    Makes absolutely no sense….so he takes the hard-core narcos and suffers and wastes away.

  124. Believe says:

    Em…I love you. Please don’t take this wrong. GM and Ford are not doing well. They are doing less bad than catastrophic.

    Both companies are in so much debt, and have so much unfunded UAW pension liabilities…it would make your head spin.

    Sales have gone up…compared to catastrophic levels a year or so ago…but both companies face serious long-term head-winds….(and they’ve already been gutted).

  125. Jim Jacobson says:


  126. Jim Jacobson says:

    Here is the latest…
    “Mexico Issues Travel Warning for Arizona Over Law “

  127. brian says:

    Juárez needs our prayers and support. If anyone knows of a good charity I would love to support it. Thanks.

  128. Em says:

    Believe, dunno that you’re right about Ford, but all i know i learn on the radio 😉

  129. Em says:

    speaking of cars… is my town the only one where it’s hard to spot a car over 5 years old?
    are all the poor among us walking or taking the bus?

  130. Em says:

    before i quit for the day it’s safe to come back here tonight,here’s a tip: Alan Mulally (Ford’s CEO) is a masterful poker player – if he announces he’s leaving the company (always has a good reason for moving on), you can be pretty sure that Believe is right and it’s time to sell your stock 🙂

  131. Em says:

    BrianD – ? … FWIW your link – that’s a bit too much yellow,

  132. puzzletop says:

    This is the most confusing thread I have ever read on the Phoenix Preacher. It seems more political than theological at times then it sways back and forth the other direction. What strange bedfellows.

  133. Em says:

    PuzT,”This is the most confusing thread I have ever read on the Phoenix Preacher” just proves the commenters here don’t speak for God, eh? 😆

  134. Michael says:

    That’s what the PP would have looked like in 1997… 🙂

  135. Believe says:

    BrianD…the Dancing Baby is creeping me out… 🙂

    Dig the music, though.

  136. Believe says:

    Mexico’s Immigration Policy is pretty darn strict…not that that is justification for us not helping our neighbors in need…but very hypocritical on the Government of Mexico’s part. If the U.S. Immigration Policy were the same as Mexico’s…our policy would be much stricter.

    Another factor to consider is the violent crime happening in places like Phoenix, AR which is tied to illegal immigration and drug cartel thugs in the U.S. illegally:

    Just presenting these two factors for consideration…not excusing helping those in need…just showing some concerns from others who want to see Immigration Laws enforced.

  137. Believe says:

    From the CNN article:

    “The origins of the kidnappers — 90 percent of whom hail from the Mexican state from which the notorious Sinaloa drug cartel takes its name — also remind law enforcement that 150 miles south lies a country racked with a more extreme brand of violence.”

  138. Believe says:

    “This is the most confusing thread I have ever read on the Phoenix Preacher. It seems more political than theological at times then it sways back and forth the other direction. What strange bedfellows.”

    Church History and even the Reformation was wrought with Church and Politics as bedfellows…something I’m noticing in my readings.

    Don’t know if that is good or bad…just is.

  139. BrianD says:

    It’s the Geocitiesizer. I saw it referenced on Gizmodo. I had to Geocitiesize the PP. Sorry about the blaring yellow and the dancing baby and the music 😉

  140. BrianD says:

    FYI: posts with more than 2 or 3 links in them will go into moderation or get caught by the spam filter. This is not to censor you, but to keep out the spammers and porn peddlers. Unfortunately this means that sometimes legit posts will fall into moderation or spam. Be patient, we’ll fish them out.

  141. puzzletop says:

    The government has the responsibility of protecting the border. It is not being protected by either the Mexican or the American government. The local governments have taken it upon themselves to do what the federal governments have not. Do we look to solve this by doing what the Lord would want us to do? I would hope so. When you put a human face on the problem who would mistreat those people who are seeking a better life by running away from a country they still love and want to return to? I would think that the solution would be a pragmatic one and not a theological one. I must admit that It gives some of us a warm fuzzy feeling to want to hug a Mexican but not to hug 3 million of them at one time.

  142. Em says:

    PuzT,”I must admit that It gives some of us a warm fuzzy feeling to want to hug a Mexican but not to hug 3 million of them at one time.” 😆

    gotta do it, tho – i guess …. they’re here until they decide to go

  143. Em says:

    God keep all close and comforted this nite…

  144. Believe says:

    Wow JJ…getting chills watching and listening to Walid…it is meshing with some of my theories…it is also meshing with some of my questions about possible misinterpretation of the bulk of Western Theologians regarding literal vs. allegorical and vice versa…

  145. Xenia says:

    This is fascinating, if I am putting this together right.

    1. Islam is awaiting the return of the 12th Imam, who disappeared as a child in the 10th century. They are expecting him to return as the Mahdi, a Muslim messiah figure. He will rule on the earth for SEVEN YEARS and then the end will come. The president of Iran seems to be his John the Baptist.

    2. Meanwhile, Europe and most of the rest of the planet is being flooded with Muslims. Their numbers will overwhelm the native Europeans soon enough and Indonesia is already the largest Muslim nation in the world. In Africa most of the wars are Muslim vs Christian.

    3. But the US is being flooded too- not with Muslims but with Christian Mexicans with their high birthrate, protecting us from being over-run with Muslims.

    4. So when the seven years come, they will be a time of glory for the Muslim but a time of tribulation for the Christian. The US may be a haven of sorts, THANKS TO THE PRESENCE OF THE MEXICANS.

    This is fascinating for us all, pre-trib or a-mil. With a little adjustment, it works for all views (except post-mil). Who is the biggest threat to Israel? Who is the biggest threat to Christianity? Who has the numbers and the zeal and the eschatology to form a one-world government? Whose religion is already expecting a “messiah” who perfectly fits the description of the anti-christ? Who calls themselves the religion of peace (peace, peace)?

    So in this scenario, anti-christ is not Rome but Islam. And the children of Rome, the Mexicans, might just be sent by God to be our protection.

  146. Believe says:

    X…watching Walid’s presentation is putting the pieces together for me.

    It also promotes unity amongst the Christians…of all denominations…and Protestant, RCC and Eastern Orthodox.

    Very interesting indeed. Taking an Eastern look at the text vs. our Western look makes a lot of sense to me. When I hear Van Impe or others try to explain the End of Days and Bible prophecy…it makes absolutely no sense. Too many mental gymnastics.

    Hearing Walid lay it all down…doesn’t take much effort.

    And yes, the Mexicans are very simpatico with our ideals…most are Christians or are very receptive to the Gospel.

  147. Jessica Menn says:

    ***I don’t understand all this talk of our economy in shambles.

    Each person on this forum is among the most wealthy that have ever lived.***

    I agree. I look at my own life and it’s actually better than it’s ever been–I bought a house, I’m getting married, and there’s a possible job in the works. I look at the people around me and none of them are suffering. One of my brothers got hired at a law firm a few months ago and makes something like $3,000 a month. One of my boyfriend’s friends got hired at a factory and makes great money. A friend of mine who was out of work for months and whose family was struggling has gotten work, and they’re doing okay now.

    On the one hand, I’m stressed out and on edge because there’s all this talk about the economy being in shambles and depression being right around the corner, but, on the other hand, the people I know don’t seem to be suffering. For some who have been struggling things are getting better, and those who are still struggling are able to make ends meet.

  148. brian says:

    I am pretty sure this may be heretical or even apostate, but I think the only way we will change the situation in Mexico and drugs, it is to change the human heart and soul of each person. I actually believe the Gospel can do this, like one elder told me “dont hold my breath”. Well I do hold my breath, stupid I will admit, but hay I actually think we can change this situation. The pain that draws people to drugs, the loneliness, the hopelessness, can be dispelled, by the light of the Gospel. I still dont get why this is heretical, but from what I have been told, such events have to happen, and we should just let it happen. Of course I may well be wrong but I think there is hope, most likely that is some worthless emotionalistic tripe.

  149. brian says:

    about the economy, many of the people I work with are struggling, it really is pay the water bill, or eat for some of the family. I help where I can, but fail, something that disgusts me about me, if I had enough money, but I dont. The staff I work with, this type of employment does not pay much, live hand to mouth. It is really hard to watch or even be part of, also the price of living in Calif, an apartment can be as much as 1500 a month or a one bedroom. That is alot of money, so people double or triple up, but the theme in many circles is if you cant make it it is a moral failing on your part. Something I have heard almost my entire life as an evangelical Christian. I am often asked for help in this area for people, I tend to be able to pull rabbits out of hats, been doing it for thirty years. Well I have ran out of rabbits and hats. Being I lost so many hours from my job even I cant help as much, something I count as one of my post profound personal failings. It sickens me.

  150. London says:

    “The MJ would take a much less terrible toll on his system…and he’d have an appetite.

    Makes absolutely no sense….so he takes the hard-core narcos and suffers and wastes away”

    It makes absolute sense. The pharmacutical companies have loads of money, lobby power, and they are fantastic at marketing their goods to doctor’s offices and hospital administration.

    The pharmacy reps never walk into an office or hospital empty handed. EVER. They bring in cool “gadgets” for everyone; pens, mugs, toys etc. and they provide excellent meals to the staff on a regular basis. They send flowers and fancy baskets to offices at holiday time etc.
    They provide free samples for docs to hand out to their patients etc…it’s brilliant marketing and it works.
    Docs will write scripts for the brands that they have the most favorable opinions of. Part of that opinion comes from the lavish way the drug reps treat them.

    Marijuana growers don’t have the same financial power and influence that the drug companies do. They also don’t often show up at the doctor’s office with “free lunch” for everyone in the office once a week either.


  151. Not Alone says:

    Wow, just got caught up on everything I missed since my last post here. This thread went all over the place. So many good thoughts, theories and compassionate postings.

    Praying for the people of Juarez. After reading this whole thread again and doing some surfing, I am even more puzzled by the lack of concern for these people by the media and our leaders. We need to write and call our officials to voice our call to action. Something needs to be done. How can we allow this to continue.

    The follow up statistics Michael put up earlier are shocking!

  152. Erunner says:

    My wife is Mexican and her parents were born in Mexico. Her father takes pride in that he did everything by the book in finding his way in the United States. He worked hard, served in the military and raised a large family.

    There used to be protests in this area where Hispanics would wave the Mexican flag and this always upset him. Telemarketers who called him and would speak spanish because of his last name sent him through the roof. He told them he is a legal citizen and can speak english.

    The last few years I have been concerned that one day there would be race riots in our country. I still believe that as our nation seems to be sitting on a tinder box that’s ready to burst.

    There’s racism in our country much more than people might think. You might be surprised what some in your church think in these matters. I’ve heard folks talk about getting five dollar Jose’s do come work at their homes. I’ve heard blacks demeaned.

    With the internet and 24 hour news the border issues in Arizona is spawning all sorts of marches and protests. At times it seems politicians only see this as a means to make political hay and a few riots or deaths would only earn them more votes.

    Our nation seems to be rotting from the inside out as right is called wrong and wrong is called right. It scares me to think the church would look to the government first to solve our problems instead of seeking God. Community rallies attract more believers than prayer meetings do. Televangelists fleece the flock as they prey on peoples fears and then offer them a ten fold increase and live in luxury while the gullible can only dream.

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