The Weekend Word

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69 Responses

  1. Em ... again says:

    “At THIS time Heaven & Earth passed away and God began the New Creation.” are you teaching that, when Christ fulfilled the law’s demands that heaven and earth passed away? a prophetic aorist tense? it is a done deal, but not yet actualized? or are you saying that we’re not really here walking on the earth? or???

    i never was a fan of goat meat, BTW – beef stroganoff is another matter, tho and i always felt a bit guilty about cooking a cow in it’s own milk

    “Those of us “in Christ” have gained Christ’s righteousness – therefore we have exceeded the righteousness of the Scribes and the Pharisees” amen

    great teaching on vs 24… squirming here

    vs 28 – it’s an old saw, but a good one IMV “you can’t stop the birds from circling, but you can stop them from building a nest.”

    vs 29 – “If you want to get to heaven on your own you had better start getting rid of body parts” … never heard a better elaboration than that

    just sayin – what i’m thinking sitting out here in my pew listening to the teaching – a great lesson IMHO

  2. em, I think the question you need to consider is what does it mean for Heaven and Earth to pass away?

    If it means a literal passing of earth and heaven (which I don’t think it does) then today. 2,000 after the crucifixion we are still 100% under the law – not one iota has passed from the law.

    The good news cannot be good news if I am still under some bad news.

  3. Al says:

    Amen. Jesus fulfilled the law. Paid the penalty for all sin. Righted the wrongs in the Universe/Multiverse.

    Jesus is the personification of the Logos of God….God’s Spirit, Mind, Reason, his “Son” in likely a metaphorical sense that we cannot comprehend.

    Not sure how it all works. Don’t believe I have to.

  4. Jean says:

    I love the Sermon on the Mount, including this week’s text, for the following reasons:

    (1) In the Lord’s Prayer when I pray, “your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven”, this Sermon helps me understand what his will for me is.

    (2) This Sermon helps me see the unbridgeable chasm between the holiness of God and my sinfulness. All I can do is beg for mercy.

    (3) By Christ’s death on the cross for me, He has taken my sin and has imputed to me His righteousness. Christ fulfilled all these requirements for us, so that by faith they can neither accuse nor condemn us.

    (4) This Sermon shows us the image of God. In the resurrection, we will be perfectly conformed to this image. What a wonderful hope!

  5. Em ... again says:

    #2- “em, I think the question you need to consider is what does it mean for Heaven and Earth to pass away?” okay, i’ll do that, 🙂 some more….

  6. Michael says:


    Your interpretation of vs. 18 is unique…I’ve never heard it and just consulted about 20 commentaries that hadn’t either.

    Is this uniquely Lutheran?
    It’s interesting…the kingdom was inaugurated…

  7. Michael, I will own up to it being uniquely MLD.
    But think about it… and I made the 2 points

    ***At THIS time Heaven & Earth passed away and God began the New Creation.
    ***Tricky verse because it could mean the Law is still upon us.

    If this means the end of this age, then we are still under the law — the whole thing as not one iota or dot has been removed.

    But without posting several commentaries – what do you think it means? What is meant here by “until heaven and earth pass away.” — and what is to be accomplished if not the crucifixion and resurrection.

  8. Michael says:


    I’m not discounting it…still thinking it through.

  9. Michael,
    I didn’t think you were – I am just trying to elicit comments of what others here think on this – but we need to direct address the earth and heavens thing and I don’t think that many have – it’s a flyover phrase.— and what is the “until all is accomplished.”

    I say it’s the “it is finished part of scripture, the tearing of the temple curtain to show tha God has left the house – the old is gone and the new is here. To me that covers a lot of iotas and dots (I didn’t compare but isn’t that the old jots and tittles? 🙂

  10. Michael says:


    My first reaction is to take one of the traditional views which believes the phrase simply means that until the consummation the teachings of the Law and the prophets will continue.

    They continue, of course as, interpreted by Jesus who fulfilled them and sometimes redefined them.

    Your teaching would actually be more in line with the inauguration of the kingdom with the first coming…

  11. Em ... again says:

    i’m not ready for virtual Christianity, i guess

    i’ll have to take the words to say what they mean and mean what they say… until heaven and earth pass away, the law is still the law… however
    it does seem logical to me to read that the Kingdom is here – Christ’s victory has broken Satan’s heretofore unchallenged grip on our mortal flesh

    the law is the law and proves itself over and over, but we have a way out of it’s condemnation in the here and now… praise God…

    who would have thought of such a plan? we underestimate what our presence (the Church) in the world means, at least i know i don’t begin to grasp it… my mind just shorts out when i try… unstable as water, i guess… sloshing around in the doctrines 🙂

  12. So why do we eat cheeseburgers?
    If Jesus fulfilled the law, …well lets look at it this way – if I buy a car I am in contract/law with the dealer for that car. As long as he still holds the note, I am under obligation (law) to carry out each iota and dot in that contract. Once I pay off the loan (fulfill the law of the contract) I am no longer under obligation to that contract / law.

    Why am I still under the law if Jesus has already fulfilled it for me?

  13. Michael,
    “Your teaching would actually be more in line with the inauguration of the kingdom with the first coming…”

    Well, Jesus did stand with his disciples and said that the kingdom of heaven was in their midst (in my teaching, I point out that he was probably patting his own chest to indicate himself.) – but he did not say “it is within your grasp and one day, what is potentially yours will be yours made in reality.”

    But as an amillennialist who believes that we are present day in the millennial and Jesus is ruling his kingdom, your comment about the first coming may have some truth. 😉

  14. Michael says:


    I’m not in any shape to think clearly about these things tonight, so I’ll have to engage in the morning.

    I will say that the law is not bad in and of itself, it is “perfect”.

    The question is really about what the function of that perfect law is in the life of a Christian…

  15. Michael says:


    If you believe the kingdom is here in it’s fullness, then that is a problem…or this isn’t much of a kingdom after all.

  16. Michael – get your rest and tomorrow if we are still functioning let’s work on it hopefully with the help of others. But put on the list to let’s see if we can determine what is “until all is accomplished.”
    The crucifixion or the end?

  17. well I didn’t say it is here in its fullness, but do we even know what the fullness is? I just quote Jesus and he says it is here. Do we have a list or at least a hint of what is lacking?

  18. Owen says:

    I have been wondering about the same questions, here…

    The whole “heaven and earth shall pass away” is one that I have always just assumed was referring to the end times. Jesus sais it the same way in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and in all those he seems , based on the context, to be talking about the end times when he sais it. Then in Revelation 21 the new heaven and earth is mentioned, and the old heaven and earth have passed away. Maybe I have always just taken this too literally… (?)

    Now, in reading the discussions here, I see the points made that the new heaven and earth have occured with the crucifixion/resurrection. I am still chewing on that myself, because it seems more figurative.

    I guess I’m not seeing the connection between Christ fulfilling the law, and the new heaven and earth…. help me out here.

  19. Owen says:

    When I read Matthew 5, this is what I am thinking…

    Jesus is saying that the entire law (not one jot or tittle missing) will endure until heaven and earth disappear (v.18). At the end of the verse He sais “until everything is accomplished.”
    My take on this is He is referring to the end (His return) with both statements – the “heaven and earth disappear”, and the “everything is accomplished” (like in Revelation 21).
    But I don’t read it to mean we are still, therefore, under the Law. He fulfilled the law for us, and we are under grace.
    The Law still is in place, but He has taken us out from under it. It has to be, because through the Law we become conscious of our sin.

    And yet, I am sure there are several here more learned than I that can shed more light on this for me.

  20. Owen says:

    hmmm… comments may appear in reverse order . #18 is still being moderated, #19 appears posted.

  21. Em ... again says:

    FWIW – i think Owen’s #18 answers MLD’s #12 quite satisfactorily…

    the law continues… just as gravity still exists even though we now escape it’s iron hold… (thankfully our escape from the Law’s condemnation and Satan’s hold is not dependent on how much aviation or rocket fuel we’ve got… well, that’s not the best of illustrations, but…)

  22. Owen says:

    Em – your analogy may not be perfect, but it did make me chuckle!

    I made another comment before #18, it appears to still be in moderation

  23. Michael says:

    “But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
    Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
    Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.”
    (2 Peter 3:8–14 ESV)

    I believe that Peter in this passage is speaking of the time that Jesus is referring to.

    Note that not only is there a final consummation of the kingdom, but the command is to be found without spot or blemish…”be perfect as I am perfect”.

  24. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    So when Jesus said he came to fulfill the law he did not mean at his first coming? So he should have said, I will come at another time to fulfill the law.
    I have stopped on my way home from church at Lowes to pick up something and then I need to get something to eat. Do I get the cheeseburger or is that one of those iotas?

    When I get home I will look at my notes. I taught that section over a year ago. I know that the conjunctions “until” play a role as this is the only NT passage that has the 2 conjunctions in the same verse … But it’s been a long time.

  25. Owen says:

    Thank you Michael, I hadn’t even thought of that passage.

    MLD – help me out here, I’m still not seeing a connection. So you’re saying, if heaven and earth have not passed away yet, we are still under law?
    I’m really not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand where you are coming from on this. Because to me, one doesn’t necessarily mean the other. Jesus fulfilled the law for us, but to me, that doesn’t mean heaven and earth passed away at that point.

  26. Em ... again says:

    it seems that the snags on this passage are two terms: “fulfill” and “all is accomplished” – a confusion on Christ’s statement that He came to fulfill the O.T. and the Law will not pass away until all is accomplished… i just don’t see that the Law was destroyed – ever

    i seem to remember that an unfolding story often has a climax long before it ends – is the Creation of man an unfolding story or just a rambling tale that will dwindle away eventually? …
    i think God began something with His creation of Adam, a story with a purpose, a purpose He’s authored and it will end just as He’s planned it… the human race, wasn’t launched with, “there they go! Now let’s see what happens…” IMHO

    the tale climaxed at the crucifixion and will end at Christ Jesus’ return to earth … we ought to be at peace with that …

    but, then, i am a pew-sitter, not a theologian 🙂

    rabbit trail alert
    that sure is a good set-up for the anti-christ to fool this arrogant, rebel race, is the devil licking his chops right now? dunno

  27. Jean says:


    Let’s begin at the cross. What happened there? Judgment. God judged Jesus for the sins of the world. This is the decisive judgment of the world. Jesus is explicitly in John chapter XII.

    At this judgment, heaven and earth passed away. There is a forensic aspect to this, so that it hasn’t been brought into our sight yet, but look at the apocalyptic signs: darkness over the land; temple curtain torn; earthquake; rocks were split; tombs were opened and dead were raised. That is “day of the Lord” language. However, it is not fully consummated.

    So, what time is it? Well, Jesus brought the 7th day to a close. That is the end of the age. But Jesus, as the first fruit of the resurrection also brought the beginning of the age to come. In chapter XXVIII, the resurrection is described as occurring on the first day of the week. This is the first day of new creation. Again, it is a sign; is is not fully consummated. Also, check out John’s Gospel, where Jesus is mistaken for the gardener – the new garden of the age to come.

    The Law is for the old age. “All is accomplished.”

    So, the question then becomes, were are you in relation to Jesus?

    Paul said “Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.” And: “For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ.”

    Christ died for your sins on the cross. If you respond in faith to the Gospel, then He will reckon you righteous in Christ and you will enter through His death and resurrection into eternal life. That is what Paul is talking about in Romans VI pertaining to Baptism.

    But, we have identities in overlapping ages. Our “dead” old Adam is on borrowed time in the old age (and that’s all the unregenerate have); but you’re a new creation by Forensic declaration and indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the age to come.

    I love the way Paul puts it in I Cor X: “Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.” Justification is the application of the cross to us.

  28. Owen, look at the words Jesus uses – not mine.
    1.) He did not come to abolish the law – think of contract. Contracts get abolished all the time, through bankruptcy, court orders, lawsuits etc. They are abolished and never fulfilled.
    2.) Think of fulfillment this way. When a ballplayer fulfills his contract and becomes a free agent, he can sign with any team he wants – and has no obligation to the team or contract he has left behind – the contract is fulfilled and gone – one party does not have a claim on another. (wouldn’t this be the case with Jesus who fulfilled the law for us? He did not fulfill the law for his own benefit – but ours.) So it is fulfilled and now I still am under contract to it? Me personally, I don’t think so.

    So, with that understanding, what does Jesus say in v18?
    1.) “until heaven and earth pass away” – until something happens something else will not.
    2.) “not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law.” until the first something happens the result will be that 2nd thing, the Law will remain intact 100%. I think it is clear that he is pounding home that point by using the emphasis “iota”.
    3.) So, if heaven and earth are still here in the traditional manner – then the law is still in force – even the penalties because they are part of the law.

    So I think that the heaven and earth passing means something else – something that happened at the crucifixion and that the 2nd “until” becomes the dominant conjunctive.

    So all that is in play is what is “all is accomplished”? and here we may have a root difference. Did the crucifixion actually accomplish things or did it just make things possible for a future time. We (the blog) had this discussion last week about potentiality and ‘here but not here’ and placing in places ‘positionally’ My point is that the crucifixion delivered.

    I still need to go back to my old notes. I always thought everyone believed that Jesus fulfilled the law – how many of us were obligated to go to church Friday night. Why aren’t we making temple sacrifices. I do not see Jesus or the NT distinguishing which laws are fulfilled.

  29. I should have checked. I started my response to Owen 2 hrs ago and just completed it. I should have checked – Jean gave the more concise reply 🙂

  30. To add to Jean’s fine comment – Gal 3 tells us the purpose of the law
    3:19 = “Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.”

    Who is the Seed and when did he come? The result of his coming according to this verse should be the end of the law.

  31. Owen says:

    Jean, MLD – thank you muchly for your helpful input, I am chewing away, but off to work now. Great points made, lots of food for thought. 🙂
    I’ll be back late tonight.

  32. Em ... again says:

    end of the law?

    the cheeseburger logic doesn’t work either, BTW – when Peter was told to go ahead and eat one, i don’t think the message was that the 10 Commandments don’t count anymore; rather that the Jewish code of conduct was kaput from here on – in God’s eyes

    to use another analogy (can’t think of an applicable hamburger one)… i have murdered someone with malice and forethought … i am convicted and i know what my sentence will be: death (i choose firing squad, BTW – with a blindfold 🙂 ) … then
    in steps a relative (perhaps he/she knew my childhood, knew why i am the way i am, capable now of murder, i don’t know) and says to the judge,” i will pay for the crime, take my life instead” … does that mean that the judge says, “oh, okay; no more laws against murder?” your logic just doesn’t follow…

    yeah, i know i’m using part of the old soul winning tool… but that is not the point here

    perhaps, old Martin Luther didn’t have it all figured out, perhaps he had some basics to deal with? like standing for the Truth without losing his head?

    i can see that the point that you folks are trying to make is so close to one that makes sense to me that i’m willing to just let it go … God keep

  33. Jean says:


    Do you agree that the Old Covenant is over? Do you agree that the New Covenant is in place? When Jesus made the New Covenant, did he anywhere place any Laws on the books regarding either entering or remaining in the New Covenant?

  34. “perhaps, old Martin Luther didn’t have it all figured out, perhaps he had some basics to deal with? like standing for the Truth without losing his head?”

    did anyone here bring Luther into the conversation? I pointed to Jesus’ words.

    The food law thing to Peter was in Acts after the resurrection.

    Its odd that people get hung up on a verse and don’t go further (not about you em)
    Jesus says he came not to abolish but to fulfill. Knowing the response he would get from those who like to hang onto the law (a feel of comfort like a mothers womb) the passages down to v. 20 speak directly to them.

    If you are going to hang on to the law here is how you had better do it
    Poke out your eye / cut off your hand. Origen the weird Church Father cut off the family jewels in order to keep the law he had been relieved of.

    Grace is so hard to accept.

  35. thank you Owen

  36. Just to move the conversation along – so what do we do with v31 & 32?

    Why do we favor culture’s solution to divorce or culture’s attitude. Have any of the pastors here told their divorce members they are in adultery or that they are the cause of another person being in adultery?

  37. Em ... again says:

    well, i guess i must respond to Jean and MLD one last time…
    the Old and New Covenants are pretty basic and clear (we’ve been the recipients of grace ever since God put some clothes on Adam – BTW)
    i fully understand grace and wish i had pursued more faith – do i think that my sins condemn me today? the sins that i’ve committed today, do they condemn me? not since i placed my faith in “the finished work of Christ on the cross.”
    among other necessities of the walk, confession is necessary for one’s health, of course

    it’s not necessary to nuance that, but there’s more, there’s always more to learn of God
    which brings me to why i mentioned dear old Martin Luther… i think the Church, itself is a living organism and has grown in understanding of the Book over the centuries… but if some prefer to stay close to our roots… i surely don’t think God condemns that

    that’s nuff said… this post by MLD is excellent and too much truth there to sit here like a bunch of monkeys trying to pick nits off of each other…

    vs 31 & 32 are where the Lutherans can come down hard on the rest of us … IMHO

  38. vs 31 & 32 are where the Lutherans can come down hard on the rest of us … IMHO

    Lutherans are just as guilty.

  39. Owen says:

    Em, could you elaborate just a little on what you meant behind your comment “where the Lutherans come down hard on the rest of us.” ? Just curious. (Being a Lutheran myself… 😉 )

    MD – good question. The culture of divorce really bothers me. And it seems (at least in the churches I have had experience with, including currently) that the Pastors/leaders really shy away from speaking up about adultery in general. My theory is they might lose too many parishioners if they did….

    Not trying to speak for any Pastors here, (or anywhere else) just what I have seen/perceived.

  40. Em ... again says:

    #39-the Lutherans that i have known have taken their marriage vows very seriously, but it sounds like MLD is saying that is a misperception?

    evangelicals, for want of a better term, have from my experience only one all encompassing definition for love and it trumps all the other commandments, doesn’t it? “don’t i deserve to be happy? don’t you?” tongue’s in cheek here

    but i wasn’t thinking of the sheep, i was thinking of uncompromised doctrine – this is one time i really don’t want to be wrong… sigh…

  41. Michael says:

    I think we need to keep this lesson up as it was buried under the holiday and it’s too important to pass by.

    Vs. 24 is the most difficult part of the whole teaching for me.

    MLD nailed me when he said that my solution is simply not to deal with certain people when the command is reconciliation.

    I don’t want to.
    At all.

  42. Michael says:

    Yes, I know this is last weeks.

    We jumped right over vs. 24…and I would like to see us wrestle with it a bit.

  43. Owen says:

    For me, I avoid dealing with the people I’m supposed to reconcile with because I don’t feel like I’m ready to be productive (or humble ) about it.

    Problem is, I don’t want to let God change that sometimes, either….

  44. Jean says:

    Okay, I’m up for it Michael.

    First of all, Michael and MLD, in verse 24, what are the gifts and what is the altar that we should not go to until we seek such reconciliation? I would like to begin with a proper Christian context.

  45. Michael says:


    I believe these are the offerings to the church.

    There would be dispute over the place and purpose of the altar…I wouldn’t object to it containing the Lords table.

  46. Michael says:

    This just drives the point home that unless you are willing to reconcile with your brother then don’t give or receive the gifts of the church.

    Which puts me in a quandary for tomorrow…

  47. Michael says:

    There are brethren I flat don’t like and who don’t like me…and I have no desire for that to be different.
    Then I wonder why we have such issues in the church and world…

  48. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    There is a heart issue here. To paraphrase Jesus a bit – why do you say you love me, follow me etc yet you do not do the things I say? How do you love me follow me if you will not listen to me?

    So the admonition isn’t if you have something against your brother, that would be too easy. Jesus always torques it up some. If he has something against you – you make the first move.

    So let’s bring it home – if you have a brother in this situation and you have not reconciled or at least made the attempt — hey, hey – you are not allowed to go to church tomorrow. How do you like that one?

  49. Michael says:


    Unfortunately, I believe you have interpreted the text properly.

  50. Jean says:

    Now MLD, that you’ve humbled us all,

    Tell us how this Law passage works within a “3 uses of the Law” paradigm.

  51. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean, it seems to me that Jesus is teaching new believers and not really confronting sin – so I would be generous and say 3rd use.

    Now if he were confronting me because I am refusing to reconcile with a brother and I have dug in my heels saying “Lord, you don’t understand what he did to me.” Then I would think Jesus is hitting we with the full force of the law and would say 2nd use.

    What do you think?

  52. Michael says:

    I think if we “really” believed in the authority of Scripture there’d be about 10 empty pulpits tomorrow, including mine… 🙂

  53. Jean says:

    For our Reformed brothers, when a Lutheran refers to the 2nd use of the Law, he is referring to what the Reformed call the 1st use.

  54. Jean says:

    I agree with your #51.

  55. Michael says:

    I’m not sure about this…but off the top of my head, this is the only sin that Jesus says not to even show up if you’re in it…

  56. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    This is why the law and gospel both must be preached side by side – and properly distinguished…. even to the Christian.

    So what happens when someone comes to this blog and is in despair over what I just said? Do I continue to hit them with more law until they straighten up and fly right, or do I ease their despair with the gospel?

    Yes, you cannot do it right and you should feel in despair over it – but let me tell you some good news.

  57. Michael says:


    I’m still in need of the law on this one… 🙂

  58. Michael says:

    If we refuse to reconcile ourselves with each other, how can we carry the message of reconciliation to others?

    How much power does our (my) hypocrisy sap from our mission?

  59. Jean says:

    “So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,”

    If you think about this in terms of the 2 tables of the 10 commandments, 1-3 our vertical relationship with God, and 4-10 our lateral relationship with our neighbor, Jesus is saying you aren’t really obeying 1-3, if you’re transgressing 4-10.

    What this means is, consistent with the OT, all sins are sins against God. (See, e.g., Ps 51).

    Near the end of Matthew, Jesus actually says that if you don’t feed, clothe, visit in prison, the poor, etc., you are not doing those things to him.

  60. Michael says:

    The internet has made it devilishly easy to make enemies,then click away…

  61. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Note that I used as my example the person who comes in despair over the situation … not the one who is digging in.

  62. Michael says:


    Exactly…and well done.

  63. Michael says:

    MLD @ 61… I answered you from my trench… 🙂

  64. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “Near the end of Matthew, Jesus actually says that if you don’t feed, clothe, visit in prison, the poor, etc., you are not doing those things to him.”

    I would massage this one a bit
    1.) those who didn’t do those things were not christians and therefore incapable of doing things.(goats)
    2.) The people who did do those things were unaware that they were doing “the things to him.” (sheep)
    3.) if we tell people they must go do those things for Jesus we have now turn it into a works situation (pleasing Jesus) and not just vocation to neighbor.

    I would massage it – perhaps you wouldn’t 😉

  65. Xenia says:

    What’s wrong with wanting to please Jesus?

  66. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Xenia – I guess I will need to look further if Jesus ever commanded something to be done to please him.

    The context of what we are talking of is people (the sheep in the story) doing and serving neighbor because that is their call and not give a 2nd thought if it was to please Jesus. This is why they are so surprised.

    I see it differently to call people to vocation.

  67. Em ... again says:

    wouldn’t if follow that, if Jesus taught it, part of our motivation to comply would be to please Him?

  68. Patti Villavicencio says:

    Thanks for the truth

  69. bob1 says:

    What’s wrong with wanting to please Jesus?

    I can’t see one thing wrong. I’m with Xenia and Em.

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