Things I Think

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222 Responses

  1. Dan from Georgia says:

    re: Number 1: agree totally.
    2. No comment as I predict that the comments section will totally focus on this one.
    5. They are also inviting them to a never-ending list of “to do’s” and “get involved with this or that activity”, certainly not to Christ.
    6. Will ruminate on this one.
    9. I will comment most on this one. I am an animal lover, and my wife is an animal fanatic. We both love dogs and we do pray for our loved one/family friend. This is not heresy. I would say that, if the lion and the lamb lay down together in heaven, and Jesus comes riding on a white horse, why can’t animals go to heaven. Oh, that is right, they have no souls according to the hardline funnymentalists. I will not get into an argument with anyone here regarding my views.
    10. Jesus said something similar when some of his disciples complained that there were some “outside the group” prophesying and healing in Christ’s name.

  2. Dan from Georgia says:

    Oh, and FIRST!!!!

  3. papiaslogia says:

    1. A – gree. The Problem is, what takes the place in the wider EV circle if the prophecy wonks decline? For instance, Answers in Genesis is coming to my church for a conference the weekend after Easter. Every service, even Awana on Sunday night, is being co-opted for this event. The last time they were here, they must have sold ALOT of books/videos/media – they had many tables FILLED with their stuff.

    Nuthin’ says the Gospel like slamming evolution and selling stuff – apparently.

    2. For every 10 reactions to this subject, I read one account of what this actually meant. Which tells me that the Gov of Indiana hit a nerve somewhere. It may be a good idea with a bad execution, or it could be exactly what the LGBT lobby fears the most – being equal.

    3. Sadly, it seems that no experience is without some kind of connectivity. We lost our wifi at home last week, and you would have thought that the world had ended. Once I got it going again, their was much rejoicing. As a dad and husband, I get a little sad when I look around the room and we are all on our phones/tablets. Its worse that TV. See point #7.

    4. Right on target. If Rick was a nobody pastor with a small church, CS would not have cared about PDL. To me, it boils down to the dollar – if Saddleback was a CC, it would have carried CS books – which would have meant more sales – $.

    5. Assuming that we invite people to church.

    9. Why do you pray for pets? You can’t drop this bomb and expect a question… or two. 🙂

    10. Great comment. Taken another way – how many people are in the visible church and yet are “invisible”? You know, outside of the church “clique”?

  4. Caryn LeMur says:

    Well… in some ways… I agree with your #2.

    “…most of America still holds to somewhat traditional views on sex and marriage and while they’re willing to accommodate this small segment of society, they are unwilling to allow them to make the rules for the rest of us.”

    As more backlash happens, we will see how the Supreme Court rules on the backlash laws.

    My great hope is that we, who are LGBT and followers of Jesus, will not receive a de facto backlash of a new set of Jim Crow Laws – which were a re-enactment of the older ‘Black Laws’ after the Civil War reconstruction.

    One great advantage we have is that we are a small minority, and not the ‘field labor backbone’ of the economy – which is much more threatening to the status quo.

    Hopefully, we will receive the protection of the Family of Christ. Yet, I think as Acts 15 shows, we that are Gentiles living the Gentile ‘life-style’, will still be debated by the Jewish believers, who hold to the higher path of the Jewish lifestyle.

    May the Lord raise up a Paul that will speak in our defense.

  5. Michael says:


    I try to be as understanding and decent as I can about these issues.
    However, what I see being sold to our children is evil as hell and once that line got crossed I’d had enough.
    You are correct, you belong to a small minority.
    Minute would be a better word.
    Based on a minute percentage of the population my child is being given reasons to doubt his gender and sexuality before he even understands what either is all about.
    My child is being taught that moral standards held by every major faith group for thousands of years is irrelevant, or worse, ignorant and bad.
    I’m willing to live and let live…but when you start messing with my kid you better be loaded for bear because one is coming your way.
    This old bear has been roused…

  6. Michael says:


    I pray for pets for the same reasons we pray for people.
    If they’re sick or lost or waiting for a report from the doctor…and I pray for the pet owners at the same time.

  7. Michael says:


    Good stuff as usual…

  8. Caryn LeMur says:

    I shall rant…. I shall plea….

    And I see near the end, this post takes a personal twist.

    Michael – after reading – you are free to delete this post. I understand. I call you out in this post… but my heart is broken… by what you did not say… and the scriptures you avoided in your #2 statement….


    I am so tired of my many LGBT friends being driven away from Christ based on their Gentile lifestyle… how many more times will I have to show them the Book of Galatians, and that our choice of a life partner means nothing to Christ’s offer of salvation? Yet the church has largely preached hatred to the Gentile lifestyle, and that message is written in our hearts far too deeply.

    And now that we are protected by the Supreme Court (slowly but surely), do the churches really expect the small LGBT tribe to not rejoice against our persecution slowing down?

    The churches focused on the life-style and not on the cries of our hearts…

    If I attended a church, what would I say? Perhaps this:

    “What? Have we have driven away the woman at the well, rather than lived among their tribe for two whole days? Isn’t Jesus our example?”

    Perhaps this, “Why do we not look at the heart of Roman Centurion – with extreme Gentile and Military Life-styles – and focus on the heart that God honored as an unbeliever for his prayers and giving to the poor? I say again, ‘he was an unbeliever and God honored him’…. Instead, you do not even know which LGBT persons in your community pray and give to the poor… ”

    I would continue (in this imaginary preaching): “We focused on the offense and not on the opportunity.

    “We accept I Cor 13, because it boasts of love…. but we ignore I Cor 5: “I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. ”

    “We need to associate with the LGBT; we need to do free business with the LGBT; we need to have no prejudice against the LGBT within our non-church society.

    “How else shall they see your light of Christ?”

    (End of my imaginary preaching…)

    Yet, each church society can then determine the course and definition of ‘sexual morality’ [also in I Cor 5]. Shall the local church refuse communion to second marriages and unmarried couples (that ‘live in adultery’ per Jesus’ words or that live in ‘fornication’)? Shall we do the same for those that have same-sex lifetime marriages? Let the church decide for those ‘within the faith’. This is allowable. I may not like Paul’s words… but this is allowable.

    The churches simply refuse to see the balance of in-group and out-group logic offered in I Cor 5. Why? I have no idea.

    Why, Michael..? Why did your heart not quote I Cor 5, and race to the nearest LGBT-owned business to tell them you are so sorry for this gross misrepresentation of the love of Jesus? Why, Michael? Why….?

    The balance taught in I Cor 5 would have led so many LGBT to call upon Jesus. They would have seen your light in their hotels, their shops, their job sites… Now, they will see a sign on the door of your bakery saying ‘No transaction will be made for those that identify as Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual with same sex partner, or Transgender.’

    I am known on the Internet as Transgender (and male-to-female transsexual), and as a Follower of Jesus. My picture is on the Internet as well as my sharing of Jesus. See me, if you wish, at

    Do you know how much it hurts to have a shop keeper call out, ‘You… leave now! You know why! Get out! You are just a mutilated man! Get out!”

    But the church will not teach the limits and constraints of I Cor 5. Michael… why will they not teach this clear direction in God’s word?

    How many more times must I be publically slapped on the face for the pleasure of the church people? It was bad enough in your churches – which I no longer attend. But now, you wish to strike me in public?

    What happened to the Jesus that stopped the public humiliation of the ‘woman taken in adultery’? If you accept that story as true, then Jesus is able in the one-to-one relationship to say ‘X is sin, go and sin no more’ – – but Jesus declined the public humiliation for which the captors begged and baited.

    Michael, I am speaking to you.

    Why your post? Why can you not see the palm print on my face?

    Why did your post, Michael, not protect me? You write of a ‘backlash’… yet, you do not protect me from the public lash upon my back…?….

    Even a woman captured in adultery – in the very act – is protected from public humiliation… by Jesus.

    But Michael, why does your post not show such protection for me?

    My heart is broken… I must leave you for a time… I am sorry… but this is too much….

  9. dswoager says:

    5. I am inviting them to a lecture, because for the most part that is what they are offering.

    I have not invited all that many people to church, and practically none recently since I don’t have a “church” to invite them to, but early on when I was inviting people it was mostly because I bought the line that this was the way that people were supposed to be exposed to the gospel. It made sense as well because the messages were often taylored to be more evangelistic than encouraging of growth for the body.

    During my time in a “church plant”, I found myself inviting people into a community that I enjoyed being a part of, though in my defense a good portion of the people I was inviting were already believers, and I was hoping that they would become another valuable part of that community.

    I’m not really sure how I would approach it now… it seems more foreign than ever.

  10. filbertz says:

    your observations in 5 & 10 are more closely related than one might initially think…in the observable church, much often occurs that bears little resemblance to ‘authentic’ christianity, while those of us on the fringe of things, so-called invisible if I’m tracking with you, see God working in less ‘public’ or ‘programmed’ manners. The Spirit of God isn’t limited by the walls of a building nor a list of members and attendees.

  11. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks Michael (#8)…and thanks for your good thoughts too!

  12. Michael says:


    You get a “C” for drama.

    My faith and nature inform me that bi-sexuality and homosexuality are not God’s design for His people.
    The issues around transgender/transsexual people are too complex for most of us to address intelligently or compassionately.

    I sincerely doubt that public humiliation is forthcoming to you or anyone else…except people of faith who simply want to live by the tenets of their faith.
    I do know the nonsense that is being foisted on my child which has far more potential for real damage.

    Your post is a classic case of overstating the argument and tends to make me less compassionate and understanding, not more, as you ignore the legitimate concerns I have.

  13. dswoager says:

    To add on to what filbertz said, if we are carrying the gospel with us into our everyday lives then we are inviting people to Christ… if we are inviting people to ekklesia (translated church)… whether it be visible or not. I think the rubber its the road on how we make that reality visible.

  14. Michael says:

    fil, dswoager,

    Some of the most committed Christians I know in terms of both faith and action would rather have a root canal than attend most churches.
    It’s almost as if these people started networking that an entirely new model of church life would follow…

  15. dswoager says:

    Michael, the funny thing being, from what I have heard some of the tools that have attempted to do just that have become just as twisted as some of the worst churches… it’s almost as if there’s just something wrong with people. 😉

  16. Jim says:

    Michael, what is being being foisted on your child, and by who?

  17. Michael says:


    Both the schools and the media are telling kids that “alternate” lifestyles and questioning ones gender identification is normal and healthy.
    I disagree.

  18. Jim says:

    Govt schools and the media (or pop culture) have been the enemy of parental authority for my entire adult life. Treat them as such.

  19. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I still find the best reply to the same sex marriage cakes or any other business endeavor is to post a sign that says.

    “We bake cakes for same sex marriages. All proceeds will be donated to Focus on the Family.
    Please make checks payable to; Focus on the Family.”

    Problem solve – homosexuals get their cake and the business owner does not need to feel guilt over profiting from that goes against his beliefs.

  20. Jim says:

    I’m sorry, but big govt liberals complaining about the consequences of big govt liberalism confuses me.

  21. covered says:

    Two weeks ago someone from my church asked when I was going to to a prophecy update. I told her that there didn’t seem to be much interest. It has been almost 6 years since I was kicked out of the tribe with the Hawaiian shirts. I am so grateful that pretending as though I had some kind of inside information on why tomatoes were growing so big in Israel is not even on the menu.

    For some reason the wife of the guy who got drink and hit her just isn’t interested in how smart I am about the Middle East. The dad who hasn’t heard from his son in 6 months isn’t impressed with my take on why Netanyahu won the election.
    I just feel as though there is much to concern ourselves with in our own houses before we solve the mysteries in the Middle East today.
    It is also very liberating not having to pretend like I’m the smartest guy in the room becuase I never was.

  22. Babylon's Dread says:

    Anything you bless you increase.

    So schools, theatre, cinema, art, law, the press… they are all blessing not just same sex attraction but basically anything you want to do within what is currently accepted as consenting adults. Those walls are being hammered too.

    We have prophesied falsely about the second coming
    I do not think we are prophesying falsely about the time being upon us when public expressions of Christianity are suppressed. That is here and abounding.

    I for one am going to have to go off the grid in this way
    Very soon I will cease signing marriage licenses… I will let the government oversee whatever it chooses to call marriage

    I will find another name for it… something covenantal and sign off

  23. Michael says:


    I’m doing the last wedding of my career Friday…then I’m joining you off the grid.

  24. Michael says:


    I’m really a medium government centrist. 🙂

  25. EricL says:

    #2 is a huge issue in the schools in my state (CA). The LGBT lobby is such a small group, even here, yet they are so powerful because they redefine the debate to their favor.

    I am not opposed to how an LGBT person goes about their daily life for the most part (how they brush their teeth, drive a car, work at a job, and so on). The problem is the sin, especially the sin that they insist everyone should celebrate and approve of.

    I will not call a Vice a Virtue; you are doing things that are sinful. And I am angered when you name my ethics and beliefs to be bigotry or even claim that my ethical stance should be illegal. I am even more furious when you insist that my children must be indoctrinated to your way of thinking, telling my kids that they must celebrate your sins. That is wrong.

  26. Michael says:


    You nailed it…

  27. Michael says:


    I did a prophecy update yesterday.
    “He’s still coming back”.
    End of update…

  28. Jim says:

    Baby steps…

  29. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I think the whole thing with LGBT (aren’t there move letters involved?) is silly.

    I am sure that if i was a baker and did not want to get involved in all the Kardasian immorality nonsense I would be OK. But are you telling me that the state is going to force me to bake a cake for Bruce Jenner????

  30. Michael says:


    I do consult the CATO people regularly, if that helps…

  31. Michael says:


    In Oregon, they’d sue the snot out of you…even though Bruce is pretty baked already.

  32. Xenia says:

    If a homosexual were to come to church and speak to the pastor, this is how the conversation should go:

    Inquirer: I am a homosexual

    Pastor: I am also a sinner.

    Inquirer: Do you believe active homosexuality is a sin?

    Pastor: Yes.

    Inquirer: Are you saying I have to be celibate for the rest of my life?

    Pastor: Yes.

    Inquirer: That will be hard.

    Pastor: It will be very hard, but we are here to help you overcome your passions and you will be here to help us overcome our passions because we all have sinful passions too. Some of us are drunkards, some of us are addicted to porn, some of us are gossips, some of us are gluttons, some are liars. We will work out our salvation together.

  33. Jim says:

    Guys, only you can insist that your children must be indoctrinated in anything.

    God gave them to YOU, not the state, and YOU are charged with raising them. You get one shot at the most important and most difficult job in your life.

    It’s the world’s job to corrupt your children, so we find ourselves in a war. We get to decide who wins, so fight and win.

    For pete’s sake, stop whining and blaming the world for doing what it has always done.

  34. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Who is Pete?

  35. Michael says:


    That was perfect.

  36. Jim says:

    OK-disclaimer. I’m a hypocrite, as I did my share of whining and blaming in the 80’s and 90’s when the world decided that my daughters should be sluts and my son should be a misogynist.

    My apologies.

  37. dswoager says:

    Xenia, bingo.

  38. Nonnie says:

    Xenia, I agree with what you said, but I believe the LGBT lobbyist would balk at you (the church/religious) calling homosexual acts “sin.” That is the issue. It is no longer to be considered sin, as in “we are all sinners”….. on par with theft, lying, lust, etc, etc.
    It is to be considered “love” and God created them that way. It would be “sin” to try and change. That is the argument.

  39. Xenia says:

    In today’s over-sexualized world the though of being celibate in almost unthinkable. Yet there are plenty of people who are celibate, some by choice and some by circumstances:

    1. Unmarried people who believe fornication is sinful.
    2. Physically and mentally handicapped people.
    3. Monastics

    Every church has a few godly people who, for whatever reason, cannot find a spouse. Often, especially women, are used as work-horses by their churches since they are always available. Often these women work with children.

    And we certainly expect them to be chaste, don’t we?

  40. Xenia says:

    Nonnie, that’s true.

  41. Alex says:

    Calvary Chapel Version:

    If a homosexual were to come to church and speak to the pastor, this is how the conversation should go:

    Inquirer: I am a homosexual

    Pastor: That is terrible. You need to repent now or you are going to hell.

    Inquirer: Do you believe active homosexuality is a sin?

    Pastor: Yes. And, like I said, you better turn…or burn.

    Inquirer: Are you saying I have to be celibate for the rest of my life?

    Pastor: Yes…and you need to feel really guilty for that heinous sin, God “hates” it and it is an “abomination” to him…and you cannot be “in sin” and be truly saved and transformed.

    Inquirer: That will be hard.

    Pastor: It will be very hard, you can be saved like I am if you just come to my church and submit yourself to God’s authority and do what I tell you.

    Inquirer: Is Gluttony a sin?

    Pastor: No, not really. I was born with a glandular problem.

    Inquirer: What about divorce?

    Pastor: There’s nuance. Don Stewart doesn’t count.

    Inquirer: What about pride and lying? Doesn’t the bible say those are “abominations” and that God hates the prideful and liars? What about greed?

    Pastor: It’s not the same! I can see you have a root of bitterness and full of the devil! Touch not God’s anointed!

    Inquirer: Hmm, much different than the Jesus I read about in the Gospels…I don’t think I’ll find the truth here.

  42. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The question is – do we excuse sin just because Don Stewart is divorced and remarried?

  43. Alex says:

    MLD, you sin all the time and you don’t seem to care much about it. What makes your sin so special that you feel OK to excuse it?

  44. Kevin H says:

    From my understanding of things, there are many other states that already have similar religious freedom laws on the books as the one that Indiana just passed. I guess Indiana is the only one who has passed theirs recently. Apparently, the laws are based off of a federal law of similar nature that was signed into law by Clinton, but was later on disallowed by the courts because it was determined that this type of law shouldn’t be allowed on the federal level, but rather belongs on the state level. I don’t know all the details so others who may know more could explain better.

  45. Xenia says:

    In my own parish I know a couple who went to our priest to confess a sin and he just about pulled out his holy beard in distress saying “I too am a sinner!” After that was settled, he set about a plan of restoration for the couple, which they followed.

  46. Shaun says:

    Caryn said “May the Lord raise up a Paul…”

    He did, and I think he covered homosexality well in Romans 1, 1Corinthians 6, and 1Timothy 1.

    The fact remains that Christ died for you Caryn, but you refuse to surrender your sexuality to His will. You have decided that you sexual relationship is more important than your spiritual one. You are upset at Michael because he had gall to tell the truth. You bring up Jesus as the example with the woman at the well, but forget that He told her to go and sin no more.

    You claim we don’t associate with homosexuals and transgender, yet here you are free to post, no one told you to leave or censored your posts.

    As a believer in Jesus Christ I love you and am heartbroken for you, but I will not allow my heartbreak to change Gods truth. I eat with homosexuals and invite them to church, but I won’t tell them God doesn’t care about their sexuality.

  47. Michael says:


    I am a sinner and I tend to sin big and explosively.
    The difference is that at the end of the day I call my sin what it is and repent…most of the time.
    Unlike some, I’m aware that I sin by omission as well as commission and more often than I want to face.

    We’re being asked to redefine sin and justify a lifestyle…and I simply can’t do that.

  48. Alex says:

    Shaun, yet you voice no concern regarding child abuse, corruption, adultery, fornication, men getting rich off of selling Jesus, men full of pride, liars etc…all within your own Church Sect.

    Why do you feel you have the moral authority to speak to someone outside your Church Sect, yet you clam up when it comes to known sins in your own Group?

    1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

    The evangelical church is on the decline b/c it demonstrates such hypocrisy and such injustice. You guys are your own worst enemies.

  49. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex – what would make you think I excuse it.
    Here is the difference – I always admit, confess and repent of my sin … and like a dog returns to his vomit, I do the same. I have never had a city sanction a parade to honor my sin. I don’t have a flag that I wave to symbolize my freedom to sin.

    It is the very rare homosexual who, admits to his sin, confesses it as sin and then repents of it – he never leaves it to be able to return to it.

  50. Alex says:

    “We’re being asked to redefine sin and justify a lifestyle…and I simply can’t do that.”

    I don’t think that is the case. I think there is certainly a Gay Agenda that over-reaches, as you point out in your article, but I don’t think the mainstream in the US is trying to force you to redefine your moral opinion regarding “sin”…

    The reality is, however, that the same mainstream is also wise to they rank hypocrisy and injustice and double-speak of the evangelical church and especially the fundamentalists.

    The evangelical church can no longer control its narrative and the truth tends to find its way into the public discussion. The church has largely lost its moral authority and is not respected by most in the mainstream any longer.

    Like with most anything, it’s not 100% to 0%…there are some good churches and good Christians who are viewed more favorably by those outside their religious sects or Group…but the traditional fundamentalist evangelical sects and Group is declining rapidly for a good reason.

  51. Alex says:

    The fundamentalist conservative evangelical church will be much smaller and much less influential in the next two generations.

    And, it is not “the devil!”…in fact the devil supposedly masquerades as an angel of light and I’ve personally seen some of the most evil things done within the conservative evangelical wing of the “church” and then it is ignored or even protected by others in those sects who can find all manner of justification to rail against bogey-men outside their walls…but can’t find an ounce of moral authority and conviction to do anything within their own professed Group/Sect.

    Very telling and it does not go unnoticed by those outside their bubbles. It exposes these sects/groups as untrustworthy, intellectually dishonest and corrupt themselves…and they are losing credibility rapidly…and will continue to decline in the next few decades.

  52. covered says:

    Shaun, your #47 is spot on!

  53. Xenia says:

    >>>A coalition of 34,000 black churches has cut its ties with Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA) in the wake of its recent vote to approve same-sex marriage.<<>> “more than 72 percent of children in the African-American community are born out of wedlock.” Federal data confirms that 73 percent of African-American births in 2010 were out of wedlock<<<

    And not just black churches, as we all know.

  54. Xenia says:

    Ugh, let me try again:

    A coalition of 34,000 black churches has cut its ties with Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA) in the wake of its recent vote to approve same-sex marriage.


    …more than 72 percent of children in the African-American community are born out of wedlock.” Federal data confirms that 73 percent of African-American births in 2010 were out of wedlock

    This is the hypocrisy that has caused modern Christianity to lose its moral authority.

  55. Alex says:

    The conservative fundamentalist sects will continue their decline in influencing socio-politics as well.

    While there is a bit of an effort to recapture the “Moral Majority” magic of the 1980’s and 90’s…it has no power this time around b/c the church sects can no longer control their narrative and protect their faux-moral-authority from the truth about their hypocrisy and injustice begin exposed left and right and center.

    It’s like erosion, slow but steady. The “church” is too fragmented and too monetarily invested and too pride-invested and too power-invested to repent. It won’t, it doesn’t think it has a problem. It will continue to lose power and influence which is a good thing, b/c much of what they are selling is false and more about the promotion and protection of Brands, Sects, Leaders and “Ministries” than it is about a sincere effort to help sinners and fellow humans with the struggles that come in this life/existence.

  56. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The church is always more influential when it has less power. So that’s a good thing.

  57. Alexander says:

    I have to take issue with your statement that you always admit, confess and repent of your sin.

  58. Alex says:

    MLD said, “Here is the difference – I always admit, confess and repent of my sin ”

    No, you don’t. Not really.

    You haven’t changed one bit in the many years now that I’ve interacted with you on the blog. You’re the same if not worse.

    You don’t think there is anything wrong with how you are which speaks to the main issue that you have no problem making an issue of someone else’s perceived sin b/c to you it’s a big deal…but your own sin…well it isn’t REALLY sin…there’s nuance and you say a prayer once in awhile and you do penance or something and even though you sin all the time, it’s OK, you’ve “repented”…yet you still sin all the time….

  59. Alexander says:

    It’s just not possible unless your prayers are very general.

  60. Michael says:

    We don’t know how a person lives by their online personas.

    In fact, most of the folks I know personally are much different online than off.

  61. Alex says:

    MLD, do you still sin everyday?

    But, I thought you repented?

    How can you still live in sin and repeat the same sin over and over, yet you’re OK, but a practicing homosexual is not OK?

  62. Alex says:

    “We don’t know how a person lives by their online personas.”

    LOL, the online persona exemption.

  63. Michael says:


    You’re much different offline than on.
    So am I.

    What I see of MLD’s life offline is a great grampa and father…which covers a multitude of online snark.

  64. dswoager says:

    I find that I agree with MLD way more often than I used to, though that may have as much to do with my own growth as his… or a diminished capacity to interpret sarcasm… in any case… 🙂

  65. Alex says:

    True, but I don’t believe there is a cure for sin…we are all sinners, we are all mix of good and bad.

    Personally, I have some very good qualities and some bad ones. I try to keep the bad in check…and it is largely accountability provided by societal constructs that helps do that.

    With regards to moral issues, my conscience and reason in synergy with God’s “spirit” is my guide…and some things are more an issue for me than others (i.e. I consider child abuse a major violation of trust and a major sin b/c of the damage it causes)…whereas I personally don’t have a problem with snark or being an a-hole online (even though it might be “sin” and is considered sin by my adversaries).

    Again, it’s a matter of personal opinion and personal conviction…with some black and white guidelines provided by the State.

    The church is no different, it picks and chooses its hierarchy of sins…even though it sins regularly in many many areas and then claims nuance and exemption with caveats.

  66. Alex says:

    The bible presents a dual-narrative or competing narrative.

    In one breath “Go and sin NO MORE!”

    and then in the other, “he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone”

    Very typical of all the major issues in the bible…and the church picks and chooses and creates its own narrative w/o being intellectually honest and acknowledging the truth about human beings and sinners and the inability to conquer “all sin” in each persons’ life and practice.

    “But I’ve repented! I’ve been TRANSFORMED!”…no, you haven’t…or you wouldn’t sin all the time like we all do.

    Most homosexuals are no more capable of overcoming their sin tendency than you are of overcoming your particular sins that you repeat over and over even though you try not to.

    Most of the time the conservatives don’t even consider their sins as sin…they are gluttons and prideful and/or liars (intellectually dishonest) and they don’t even consider it as ongoing sin.

  67. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “MLD, do you still sin everyday?”

    Of course – other than Ted Haggard who bodly swore he rarely sinned, and Joyce Meyers who refuses to call herself a sinner, I don’t know anyone who does not sin daily…in fact I sin now more than when I became a christian 34 yrs ago. Back then I didn’t know what sin was or the depths of my sin. I am still learning.

    Go back and read the 1st theses Luther nailed to the W door – we are to live a life of repentance.

    I am the one, and close to the only one who boldly confesses to being 100% sinner. The rest of you lie about your sin life.

  68. covered says:

    Alex, wouldn’t you agree that just wanting to repent and wanting to be a better person is the work of the Holy Spirit in ones life? I’m not giving anyone here a pass but I remember my bc days when I didn’t care what lies I told and now I’m convicted. It’s all a work in process and some of us just need more work than others 🙂

  69. Alex says:

    MLD, you present a dual-narrative often…which is why I don’t trust your opinions b/c they come off as intellectually dishonest.

  70. Alex says:

    covered, I think that dynamic is overused.

    “Before I met Jesus I was a scoundrel who was into drugs and fornication and then Jesus saved me and now I’m a new man!”

    Kind of…and sometimes people have a life crisis and develop a guilty conscience b/c they see they are hurting other people and themselves and then they look for something to save them.

    The church has no lock on this phenomena….there are as many or more folks who reform themselves, in general. and eschew lives of fornication and drug use through psychology, other religions and even through modern medicine.

    For every gory conservative fundamentalist “testimonial” I’ve seen, I can point to a Humanist or Mormon or Buddhist testimonial of equal or more “transformation”…yet those folks still sin just as you do…just in different areas than the biggies they struggled with before like say drug use or alcoholism or sexual promiscuity etc.

  71. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex, you caught me – my dual narrative is quite unique to the confused mind.
    Narrative #1 – I am 100% saint – I am 100% justified before God.
    Narrative #2 – I am 100% sinner – help, I can’t get out of myself.

    So, tell me about your godly self improvement plan.

  72. Em says:

    #5’s link to baking cakes… the florist, who has been in the news lately for refusing to do the wedding flowers for the two gay men, had known for some time that one of the two was a gay person; she had provided flowers for him on several occasions … when it came to celebrating the legalizing of his coupling, she told them that would make her a party to something that God clearly defined as wrong… she was honest and these two men turned on her… it would have been the same principle had she been a baker…

    it had nothing to do with a gay version of “jim crow” persecution

    most bakeries serve sinners or they’d have zero customers … but should they be forced to provide a service to enable/enhance what their conscience or their god tells them is wrong?

  73. Alex says:

    Certainly “sin” has consequences….if you mess around with other women, you will likely lose a relationship or relationships and end up divorced if you don’t truly repent…and MLD’s “repent” seems to mean you could keep slipping up, say prayer and do some penance and then fornicate again and again and be truly saved. That won’t fly with your wife, however, and you’ll end up divorced.

    Some sins have greater consequences. If you use illicit drugs you could get arrested. You could develop health issues. You could end up stealing to support your habit etc. Often the societal consequences are a good motivator toward personal reform…and again, many ex-druggies “found Jesus” in the form of other religions and psychology and not the typical evangelical scenario.

    Sins like pride and gluttony and lying etc are so common in the “church” that it is laughable to hear the church so righteously indignant about taboo issues.

    If homosexuals were conferred the same asterisks and caveats and exemptions as the rest of the active and regular and ongoing sinners in the “church”…it would be a non-issue.

  74. covered says:

    Alex, you are reading into my comment. While I agree that we are a new creation if we are truuly born again, I’m keeping it simple by adding, now I repent when before I didn’t. I’m still a scoundrel and a horrible sinner but now I realize that and now I repent. Now I want to do better when before Christ, I didn’t care. That’s all I’m saying.

  75. “most bakeries serve sinners or they’d have zero customers … but should they be forced to provide a service to enable/enhance what their conscience or their god tells them is wrong?”

    I was asked earlier today, “Would you force a Muslim caterer to serve pork chops to a paying customer?”

    First, my Muslim friend who is a catering business owner probably would NOT have pork chops on her menu items for catering any more than my Kosher keeping Jewish friend would on her deli menu. Let’s make it more to the point. I would force ANY business owner to make her :: full menu :: available to an paying customer.

  76. Alex says:

    covered, many homosexuals feel guilty and they care and they wish they weren’t homosexual…and they find no comfort in the church b/c the church doesn’t extend to them the same grace and tolerance that the rest of us sinners enjoy each and every week…sitting in the pews, gluttonous as ever, prideful as ever, intellectually dishonest as ever, etc etc.

    The conservative church has failed miserably with regards to the homosexual issue and that is why the Gay Agenda has so much power now.

  77. parker says:

    ( |o )====:::

    Your comment / link @ #5 . . . Excellent!

  78. Alex says:

    My personal position regarding the cake baker: The baker has the right to their moral opinion and to be immoral in their treatment of a gay person by refusing service to them…and the gay person has the right to be gay and to refuse service to those they find moral reprehensible.

    People have the rights to their particular bigotry when it comes to moral issues like gay marriage. That is the dual-edged sword of the First Amendment and Establishment clause.

  79. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex – “many homosexuals feel guilty and they care and they wish they weren’t homosexual…and they find no comfort in the church b/c the church doesn’t extend to them the same grace and tolerance that the rest of us sinners enjoy each and every week…sitting in the pews, gluttonous as ever, prideful as ever, intellectually dishonest as ever, etc etc.”

    Now this is where you are either dishonest or buy into the homosexual – LBGT agenda. Why wouldn’t they feel comfortable in church? – there are thousands of churches that are homosexual affirming – the Lutherans even have a version, the ELCA. So why aren’t they happy with going to those – why are they trying to bust open the Baptists or CC or whoever is not?

  80. Alex says:

    “why are they trying to bust open the Baptists or CC or whoever is not?”

    There is certainly a Gay Agenda…and that Agenda does not view it as sin and does not find any value in the conservative churches and largely b/c the conservative churches have a history of making the issue of homosexuality a political issue and have used it as a cudgel and a weapon in the culture wars.

    I do think the Gay Agenda has over-reached and I don’t think they have the right to force their morality onto conservative religious Groups.

    I don’t think they will force Mosques to accept gay marriage and I don’t think they’ll pressure Muslims or Black Churches in that regard…b/c again, it has become a political issue.

  81. Alex says:

    That does not diminish the fact that conservative evangelicals have been wrong in their hypocrisy and mistreatment of gays for a very long time.

  82. thanks Parker

  83. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    George Tiller was just another sinner like the rest of us. Most evangelical Christians and churches took issue with his sin and in fact held very strong and vocal positions in protest., but he found an affirming church that would accept him – even though he not only refused to repent of his sin, he continued to profit from his sin

    The church, sadly was ELCA – they brought him into full fellowship and love. This is exactly what is being advocated.

    However, Dr. George Tiller was the late term abortion doctor in Kansas that all the abortion glorifiers held up as a man of the people

  84. Alexander says:

    So should employers be able to not hire or to fire employees because they are gay?
    This has more of a ramification than having a cake baked.

  85. “So should employers be able to not hire or to fire employees because they are gay?”

    The argument of something being for the “public good” is the most compelling, and it is most compelling to insist on no discrimination in the case of an employee’s sexual orientation. As long as the person can excel at their job, let them be the best example for us all.

  86. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    4. Please get a clue. The reason Chuck Smith didn’t like Rick Warren had nothing to do with theology and everything to do with Warren being successful in Chuck’s front yard. He was angry with Greg Laurie for the same reason…

    Why is this relevant today more than a year after his death. Shouldn’t we just have a rule to only hate on the living?

  87. Em says:

    “I would force ANY business owner to make her :: full menu :: available to an paying customer.”
    ah, then the white supremacists could force the best local BBQ rib guy in town to cater their gatherings… even, tho he and his workers are all southern black folk?
    seems distasteful to me … dunno, tho, do i? 😆

  88. Oh yeah, Em, that would bring a whole new level of mutual respect

  89. papiaslogia says:

    “I would force ANY business owner to make her :: full menu :: available to an paying customer.”

    Are you sure about that Guitar Man?

  90. Kevin H says:

    Honest question here. A lot of the rhetoric I’ve been hearing on this Indiana law is that people/businesses will now have free reign to discriminate against people based on their sexuality and now people/businesses will start doing things like not serving/hiring gays at all or putting up signs saying things like No LGBT allowed. Outside of examples where people don’t want to bake cakes/provide flowers/etc. for a gay or lesbian wedding or of a church/ministry not hiring someone who is a practicing homosexual, are there known cases in recent memory where people have been refused service or turned down from a job based on their sexuality? Especially in states that already have religious freedom laws like Indiana.

  91. Em says:

    9. “I find myself praying for as many pets as people these days. I do not consider this heresy.”

    this thot seems weird to me today… but… God does see every single creature and notes their passing… hmmm… what to pray for exactly? God, please get into that dog’s mind to come when i call her back? that would be one thing… i guess that i’ve prayed for critters… almost without knowing it, perhaps…
    as someone who didn’t even know how to bridle a horse, i found myself having to dose a mare with a bad colic – take a syringe over the teeth and past the gums and look out horse, here it comes… i did it with complete success and i know that was a miracle of answered prayer… hmmm maybe we should pray for more skill and wisdom as we pretty much are our animals’ gods

    prayer for Michael’s mother’s knee transplant and recovery

  92. Kevin H says:

    And just as a follow up to my last question – I know we can name plenty of cases where people have had bad attitudes in the way they have spoken of and/or treated LGBT people, but my question revolves around the actual refusal of service or the actual turn down of employment based on sexuality.

  93. Em says:

    “… whole new level of mutual respect” well, maybe… at least a whole new level of trust 🙂

  94. I’m as sure as I am ( |o )====:::
    …except for my grammatical error, which should read “a paying customer”

    Yes, denying full menu & service to a paying customer is flat out stupid if a business wants to grow and get repeat business from that customer & their friends & family.

    It’s a 4 vs 10 ratio. 4 satisfied customers tell their friends, 10 dissatisfied customers spread their story, and with a vengence.

    Here in the United States one should either serve their customer with a smile or get out of the business.

    Am I missing a more subtle question you’re asking?

  95. Michael says:


    Thank you…she’s out of surgery and awake now.

  96. Collin Powell said it best: “If you are going to achieve excellence in big things, you develop the habit in little matters. Excellence is not an exception, it is a prevailing attitude.”

  97. Michael says:


    I watched some of a prophecy conference over the weekend…and they were claiming that Chuck was a theological champ for taking on Warren.

    Not the case…

  98. Michael says:


    In most corporations I’ve worked with, being gay was a huge advantage.

  99. Em says:

    for the record and IMO a person’s sexual make-up only becomes my business when they are in my face with it in whatever form…
    sadly, we’ve gone from stilted Victorian denials to the complete other extreme…

  100. Michael,
    Glad your mom’s out, thinking of her, you & Trey as well

    I think most people, no matter how “out” they are, just want to get through the moment and be treated with respect. I prefer the current “extreme” of letitng a person simply be who they are as long as hygiene prevails 😉

  101. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Funny discussion then at a PROPHECY conference since CS and RW hold to the same view. In fact, except for maybe the spiritual gifts issue (although CC practice in this area is identical to SBC) these guys are theological clones.

  102. xenia says:

    Respect goes both way. They are showing no respect for the baker’s religious beliefs.

    Christians are easy targets. Let them go to a baker in the Muslim part of town and see what happens.

  103. Em says:

    “I think most people, no matter how “out” they are, just want to get through the moment and be treated with respect.” yes, i think you’re correct on that… but
    most people aren’t the ones causing all the dust-ups…
    from what i saw of her on TV, i’ll bet you the woman florist was just as respectful as she could be when declining the aforementioned order and IMV, the couple should have been just as respectful – they could have replied that it was hurtful, that they felt she was wrong and simply taken their business to someone not of her convictions… she didn’t damage them any more than most all of us are “damaged” in our daily comings and goings

  104. filbertz says:

    at our cafe and with our catering, we are selected for our food and service, not our convictions. If you want those, you have to pay extra. 😉 We are catering a lesbian wedding this summer. They brought it up, not us. We sold a giant Hobart mixer to a lesbian couple yesterday. Their money spends just like ours. The marketplace is pluralistic. I refuse to operate in a christian ghetto.

  105. Em says:

    yeah, what Xenia said…

  106. Michael says:


    Exactly my point…one that the ODM’s and prophecy people don’t get.

  107. Michael says:

    Thanks Gman…

  108. Michael says:

    The only time I’ll attend a same sex wedding is if fil is catering…that’s my exception clause. 🙂

  109. Babylon's Dread says:

    For the record I agree with MLD he is 100% sinner.

    according to the G-man Jesus will still eat with him if he can find someone to cook

  110. Babylon's Dread says:

    I too am an animal lover and I always pray before I eat them.

  111. well, Jesus DID invite him to the banquet, after all

  112. Em says:

    selling a giant Hobart mixer is a neutral business transaction with no implications of affirmation – i won’t sell to you because you’re a sinner makes no sense…
    eating with a person whose lifestyle is condemned by God is a necessary path to dialog and, i suppose one could say that selling flowers to such a person is a path to dialog, but when that moment comes – the dialog moment – as it did for the florist, should she have said, “oh, you’re getting married? that’s lovely and i’ll be honored to supply the floral part of the ceremony.” …?
    hmmm – she couldn’t do so in good conscience, so doesn’t she have rights also?

  113. Em says:

    6. The Scriptures say that one who is forgiven much, loves much…and that the opposite is also true. It may be that the person you have the hardest time loving is the one that looks most like your own unconfessed sin..

    now there’s a grim thought… mine is an unprincipled, underhanded property developer

  114. Babylon's Dread says:

    As an employer I will discriminate against you if you insist on coming to work naked. I will fire your naked ass. That is probably based more upon good taste than religion but I just want us all to be clear that we do indeed discriminate.

  115. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I’ll take anyone’s money. I don’t have any business going with any lesbian couples but I have $3 – 4 million going with homosexual men couples at any given time.

    I work with homosexual people all day long – it’s no big deal. Just don’t ask me to approve your lifestyle and you won’t get any blowback from me. That includes my adulterer and fornicating friends – who I usually cut off relations with..

  116. filbertz says:

    I’m not a florist. I won’t push my business plan on someone else. I think to X-out potential customers in the marketplace because they sin differently than I do is simply discriminatory. Not everyone sees eye to eye with me on that, and they are entitled to be wrong. 😉 Furnishing flowers at a wedding is no different than furnishing flowers at any other occasion, including a funeral for someone who hated Christ or belonged to the KKK. Where does one draw the line?

  117. Em says:

    “Where does one draw the line?” as long as one is doing their best to be respectful of others and obedient to their own principles, it truly is a matter of ones own conscience, isn’t it?

  118. “i’ll bet you the woman florist was just as respectful as she could be when declining the aforementioned order”

    here’s the problem, the money is just as spendable, the customer just as worthy, and the professional florist should simply BE professional

  119. “Where does one draw the line?”
    do the job or get out of the way of someone who will do it with enthusiasm and professionalism

  120. “As an employer I will discriminate against you if you insist on coming to work naked. I will fire your naked ass. That is probably based more upon good taste than religion…”

    you simply need to hire more attractive employees

  121. If i showed up naked to work there would be way far too much laughter, so as a pro I keep my business to myself

  122. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “do the job or get out of the way of someone who will do it with enthusiasm and professionalism”

    I think that is what the baker and the florist are trying to do – to get out of the way and tell the client to go find someone else who will, as you say, “do it with enthusiasm and professionalism”

    But the LGBT are not satisfied with that… and you know it. They want you out of business for trying to get out of the way.

  123. filbertz says:

    Michael @ 109

    😉 do you want to work that one with me? cut the cake perhaps? 😉

  124. “eating with a person whose lifestyle is condemned by God”???

    um, well,

    …same goes for eating 😉

  125. Em says:

    #118 – don’t think my pronouns related correctly…

    in the PNW, more gays are getting married-so-called than straight people are, or so it seems to me and sometimes it seems that there are more nice gays than there are straights… sometimes

    flowers for a funeral… are they the same as wedding decorations? i think i can mourn your death even if i couldn’t celebrate your wedding

    i’m all random thought out for today… God keep

  126. filbertz says:

    mld–they instead should do the American thing–raise their prices!! 😉

  127. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I’ll cut the cheese. 😉

  128. filbertz says:

    Mld–and I’d be happy to let you…

  129. Michael says:


    If I get to eat, I’ll be more than happy to work… 🙂

  130. filbertz says:

    em, yes I believe conscience is a worthy consideration, yet not the only one.

  131. “They want you out of business for trying to get out of the way.”
    …as well you should be

  132. Alexander says:

    I remember hearing on the news back in the early 1990’s that the owner of Olive Garden believed in firing gay employees. This was because he viewed homosexuality as abhorent and it was his right as an employer to be in control of who worked for him. I have tried to google it to confirm but can’t find the information. Definitely was before it was owned by Darden group.
    Btw, it is still legal to fire someone for being gay in 29 states.
    Surprise, surprise….Indiana is one.
    The Employee Non Discrimination Act has failed consistently to become a federal law.

  133. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    …as well you should be

    But that is not what you said – you said that they should get out of the way and let someone else do it.

  134. Jim says:

    ““They want you out of business for trying to get out of the way.”
    …as well you should be”

    This should be determined by the free market, and not the state.

  135. If we let the free market determine the outcome it requires the employment of the potentially “offensive” person, therefore the legitimate role of government.
    This is why we fight for civil rights for minorities, the foreigners, those who are “the other”.

    Interesting, we want to treat our own citizens with the same inhospitable treatment that Sodom & her sisters were indited of, also of being so overly well fed that we discriminate against the poor.

  136. The Dude says:

    Last summer the Gay Olympics came to town and the Muslim community just flatly refused to comply with any of it. The muslin cab drivers refused to drive around with advertisement signs on their cars or would pick them up at the airport. Most of their businesses closed up for the week.

  137. Babylon's Dread says:

    Talk to us G-man about the one flesh union we have failed to revere for 5000 years and postulate for us the judgment of which we are worthy for our oppression and failing to discern the image of God in the male and male coupling. Presumably you believe this to be the righting of a wrong by a sovereign God.

  138. Jim says:

    1) I turn magazines into iPad apps. Should the fedgovt force me to accept clients that publish nudity, or should I be allowed to follow my conscience?

    2) The open carry of firearms is legal in most states. Should the fedgovt force restaurant owners to take down their “no firearms allowed” signs?

  139. Business is one thing, faith is another. It’s simple, if you don’t want same sex marriage don’t choose to be in one. Meanwhile, people should be able to live in peace and coexist, unless you’d like to join ISIS and throw a few guys off buildings to show how awesome your faith is.

  140. if you don’t agree with the content of your clients you are free to choose the free market freelance opportunities that are a cold call away

    regarding firearms, the whole thing is not what our founders intended and is run amok by the gun lobby

  141. Jim says:


    You just did a 180 on the “legitimate role of government.”.

  142. Babylon's Dread says:

    Imagine forcing people to eat food that is against their religion…

    I don’t think you would do it.

    But you will force them to ingest the full experience of acts that they consider to be abominable in order to keep their right to make a living.

    It is evil … and only evil people coerce others to participate in things that violate their conscience. You do not have to approve of a person’s conscience to let the have one. Photographers should not have to take pictures of anything they do not wish to sell.

    You can always find someone who do what you want for money. Don’t deprive people of the right to make a living because they cannot in good conscience do the work

    It is evil beyond imagining …

  143. Babylon's Dread says:

    I suggest that the coercion of employers is the work of cultural ISIS

  144. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “if you don’t agree with the content of your clients you are free to choose the free market freelance opportunities that are a cold call away”

    That is exactly what these folks did – they freelanced and opened their own business…. and then you say that is not good enough after it being your own recommendation.

  145. “…you will force them to ingest the full experience of acts that they consider to be abominable…”

    what planet do you live on?

    You’re really saying that equal opportunity and employment are forcing anyone to spread their fanny and get a wild ride?

    I mean, I know you’re used to saying outrageous things to get a rise from folks in your church but you’ve lost your mind if you somehow equate equal opportunity with s*xual practices you object to.


  146. Babylon's Dread says:


    I am so happy to learn that you are one of my interested learners

  147. breath holding is not advised =)

  148. Shaun says:

    Alex, I have addressed all those sinful abuses in Calvary here on this blog with my real name attached, I just can’t fix them. I made changes in my church (which you reviewed and seemed to approve of). I suggest those changes to pastors I have influence on.

    Additionally, Caryn claimed to be a Christian so I addressed Caryn as inside, not outside.

  149. Alex says:

    Shaun, fair enough, I agree that you have done those things and apologize for lumping you in that group.

  150. Em says:

    Sodom and Gomorrah may actually have some relevance, if not literal application, to what has dominated the thread… not saying that this nation replicates those two cities (ghastly picture that brings to mind)
    take Lot, for instance – would anyone think that it was okay to offer your daughters to a lustful mob? Righteous Lot? what it does teach is that a man who, evidently fears God, can be sucked into the relative customs of the land – given enough time… and yet God’s grace got him out of there … ? … ‘course if you dismiss the Book as unreliable, there’s no lesson and no problem, just do what is right in your own times

  151. Randall Slack says:

    I believe that Jesus is coming soon and yet, I wouldn’t walk across the street to attend a prophecy conference if they chauffeured me in a limo.

    My main concern with the coming of Christ is to try, by the grace of God, draw closer to Him as must as a human being can and to live in such a way as to create a “thirst” in others, that they may come to know Jesus. No matter when He comes.

    Most prophecy conferences are concerned with selling tickets, then taking up an offering, then selling CD’s and books and Jesus T-shirts, bible covers, book markers, prophecy update bibles, and other stuff that do nothing to minister to the believer.

    Jesus said, “Occupy till I come.” So, I am trying not to be so concerned with myself that I forget about that whole “love one another and love your neighbor” thing. So, I seek to befriend homosexuals, adulterers, Pharisees and tax collectors because that’s what Jesus did.

    He was accused of being “the friend of sinners.” I thank Him that He is the friend of this sinner.

  152. Jim says:


    Your glib semi answers reveal the inconsistency of your beliefs.

  153. ( |o )====::: says:

    I’m busy in the midst of 8 projects, just popping in a few minutes whenever possible.
    As far as my beliefs being inconsistent, welcome to humanity

  154. Jim says:

    G-I know plenty of humans who, when choosing to argue a point, defend said point throughout the argument, unless proven wrong. You’re a dodgy one, who either hasn’t thought his beliefs through, or doesn’t feel too strongly about them.

  155. G’s goal is to be political correctness’ Man of the Year

    Look, you can’t even make Bruce Jenner jokes without the Gs of this world wetting themselves.

  156. ( |o )====::: says:

    so you want to argue?

  157. ( |o )====::: says:

    …cuz im not in the mood to argue, glib guy that i am

  158. Babylon's Dread says:

    We have reached the time when mortals have deigned themselves to be more moral than the revealed God of holy scriptures, more wise than apostles and prophets, more holy than the Savior.

  159. Babylon's Dread says:

    And Jim

    G-man is a red-letter guy but not only as interpreted by Hollywood.

  160. brian says:

    Just a point I think it is safe to say everyone / group has an agenda of some kind.

  161. Nonnie says:

    Although I agree with Michael, Babs, MLD as to the gay marriage issue. (I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. Nature tells us that) However, I believe that a florist or baker who services Hindus or atheists, or divorced people or unwed mothers, or people who have lived together before marriage or had sex before marriage….why would they balk at servicing a “gay” wedding? To me the making of the cake or presentation of flowers is a service, not a part of the religious ceremony. Do these people refuse to do their service if the wedding is not a Christ centered service? I don’t see that making the cake or providing the flowers for a wedding is the same as saying they agree with “gay” marriage. Just as if they make a cake for a baby shower for an unwed mother. Do they refuse those? It’s a business and a service. I don’t see it should be an issue.

    Someone even mentioned that the florist has done flowers for the homosexual during his courting days. So what is the difference? Why wouldn’t she have said, I don’t do flowers for gay dates? I am throwing this out here as I have a lot of very mixed feelings about this. I know what is right and wrong, but if business people are only going to “serve” “right” people, then they are going to have a very, very small group to serve.

  162. papiaslogia says:

    I don’t think anybody should be forced to serve a customer that they do want to serve.

    Used to see signs that said, “No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service.”

    Let the marketplace dictate with whom a vendor does their business with.

    Funny how people who appear to be the most progressive seem to be the ones who are calling others judge mental:

  163. Nonnie says:

    What is most offensive to me is that the LGBT culture, as well as government are targeting Christians with these “tests.” I’ve yet to hear of a Muslim bakery or florist or caterer who is being targeted and asked to service a gay wedding or a pork BBQ.

    So I agree that “we” are being singled out and I believe it is spiritual.
    I guess I’m puzzled as to why “we” should be so selective as to which “sin” we choose to service or not.

  164. Em says:

    Nonnie, i don’t think that the aforementioned florist asked her customer what he wanted the bouquets for, but she wasn’t condemning the man for his gayness rather she was honest in telling them that she (seemed to have a lovely shop and a thriving business) couldn’t be a party to their marriage ceremony, so maybe, when she did a wedding, she felt a part of it? … and per your thots on the issue, you prove the point that for us Christians, it well may be a gray area and a matter of conscience. It is too bad, tho, that the men couldn’t have been gracious and just gone elsewhere

  165. Alex says:

    brian said, “Just a point I think it is safe to say everyone / group has an agenda of some kind.”

    Very true…which is why it can be difficult to get at Truth…you have to sift your way through the competing agendas and their particular propaganda.

  166. Alex says:

    ….very very few have the goal of being intellectually honest.

  167. “G-man is a red-letter guy but not only as interpreted by Hollywood.”

    yes, NOT :: only :: as interpreted by hollywood

  168. Babylon's Dread says:


    All of those modifiers you named have the same definition of marriage. Gay relationships redefine marriage. The parts simply won’t marry. Call it whatever you like.. it is not marriage.

  169. Em says:

    BD, #169 … yes, even electricians and plumbers get it … forget George Orwell, we live in a Lewis Caroll world

  170. Alex says:

    “The parts simply won’t marry. Call it whatever you like.. it is not marriage.”

    Depends on your definition of “marriage”…as far as the Govt. Contract that is “marriage” in the US…so far the courts disagree with you.

    Certainly homosexuality is not normative to the species…as I point out to pro-gay friends in attempts to hold them accountable to be intellectually honest. However, homosexuality is not exclusive to humans and is seen in other species…which begs the question that it isn’t necessarily a learned behavior…but something innate in a small percentage of the species.

  171. Babylon's Dread says:

    Eat with whoever you damn well please but the Romans didn’t force Jesus to let the prostitutes set up shop in his back room.

    Freedom is an amazing thing… amazing… interesting how the left loses a taste for it if the choices offend them

  172. Alex says:

    If you appeal to the “bible” for your “definition of marriage” (not you Dread, in general)…then you have a problem with “one man and one woman” b/c the bible’s first Marriage Definition included multiple wives and concubines…as exampled by bible stalwarts/righteous Abraham, Jacob, Gideon, David, Solomon and many others.

  173. ( |o )====::: says:

    “Bake the cake, and some cupcakes as well!”
    – Jesus, back room of His friend’s bakery

  174. Does anyone else find it disturbing that ( |o )====::: has at least 3 times posted a placard that compares Gays with Thieves and Prostitutes?

    ( |o )====::: – shame on you.

  175. ( |o )====::: says:

    Thieves, prostitutes, graphic designers, musicians… there’s hope for me =)

  176. Caryn LeMur says:

    I wished to extend an apology for my outburst. Emotions seldom persuade in a group that prizes other things.

    And my apology for calling Michael out. There was no need on my part to do such.

    Not an excuse; but an explanation: the pragmatic outworking of the Indiana law simply hit too close to home for me.

    Thank you all for sharing the thoughts from your various sects of Christianity.

    Peace to you all during your journey.

    Sincerely; Caryn

  177. ( |o )====::: says:

    Sending love to you, continue your journey with Jesus

  178. papiaslogia says:

    “Does anyone else find it disturbing that ( |o )====::: has at least 3 times posted a placard that compares Gays with Thieves and Prostitutes?”

    Maybe ( |o )====::: is saying that like Thieves and Prostitutes, Gays can change?

    I doubt it.

    More likely, he’s trying to shame us for thinking differently than he does. That’s a rather “progressive” take on life – no?

  179. Em says:

    we live in very mixed up times… never would i put someone struggling (or not struggling) with a psychological or physical idiosyncrasy in the category of thieves or murderers or prostitutes

  180. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “Thank you all for sharing the thoughts from your various sects of Christianity. ”

    Now there is a backhanded slap. Let’s see is I can go a little deeper. Those church bodies who affirm LGBT are biblical and those who oppose, well, we are just giving from our diverse (and perhaps perverse) opinions from our sect.

  181. ( |o )====::: says:

    “he’s trying to shame us for thinking differently than he does”


    think what you want, do what you want

    just bake the cupcakes

  182. papiaslogia says:

    “just bake the cupcakes”

    “Just eat the meat that’s been offered to idols”

  183. ( |o )====::: says:

    “just bake the cupcakes”

    “Just eat the meat that’s been offered to idols”

    just carry the load the extra mile

  184. Babylon's Dread says:

    Pretty clear

    When faith matters conflict with personal freedom G-man favors coercion as a means of compliance.

    Rack Em,

  185. Xenia says:

    think what you want, do what you want

    just bake the cupcakes<<<

    What if "doing what I want" means not participating in a homosexual wedding? What if that is what I really, really want? Yet you would say I could not do what I want, I must do what others want, even if it conflicts with my convictions.

  186. ( |o )====::: says:

    guess Jesus’ example in going the extra mile has exceptions

  187. ( |o )====::: says:

    darn that Jesus, being coercive

  188. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well let’s look at it this way. In a generation past everyone looked at homosexuality as immoral, unbiblical and same sex marriage totally unthinkable. In one generation we have evolved. (isn’t that precious)

    So, let’s evolve one more generation and the laws change to allow men to marry 12 yr old girls – I will even make it all grown up and add – “if they have started having their period so that we know that nature has blessed them.”

    G, you baking a cake for the 45 yr old dude marrying the 12 yr old? It’s legal or would your convictions get in the way.

    “just bake the cupcakes – go the extra mile!!!”

  189. ( |o )====::: says:

    “…baking a cake for the 45 yr old dude marrying the 12 yr old…”

    that would be a return to a pre-20th century “biblical” model

    How does that change Jesus’ challenge to those He addressed?

  190. Xenia says:

    Jesus never coerced anyone to sin.

  191. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    ( |o )====:::
    But you did not answer – are you going to bake the cake, arrange the flower, be the photographer who snaps all those mushy wedding pix?

  192. Xenia says:

    MLD, right. Could a Christian wedding photographer say things like “Ok Joe, give Fred a big kiss for the camera?”


  193. Em says:

    i really believe that most of the gay community (and some rightly so) are sure that they were born to function as they are asking us to accept as their normal… and G man is right to question what we condemn as Believers … do we understand them? probably we don’t,
    but i’ll take that one step further and say that we don’t really grasp what their increasing presence represents as to the condition of our society…
    i believe, think i’m repeating myself, that their prominence is akin to the canary in the coal mine principle … the Church’s making their main focus on policing them – if we do so – is wrong IMHO …
    rather, what we should focus on is how did our social norms get this twisted – i am truly sorry for those whom i just offended as i think that you are victims, just not in the way you want me to see your victimhood and, yes, you can get to heaven, but as you follow Jesus, follow closely and don’t try to be His back seat driver – work out your salvation without trying to work over other Christians
    God keep

  194. ( |o )====::: says:

    Is it a return to a pre-20th century “biblical” model?

    Did Lutherans ever officiate such a union before 1900, in America, in any of the pre-american colonies, or in pre-american Germany?

    Did the Orthoxox church ever, in its history, officiate such a union?

  195. ( |o )====::: says:

    “Jesus never coerced anyone to sin.”

    The Jews who heard Him tell them to “go an extra mile” when compelled by a a Roman soldier to carry his weapon, perhaps used to cut down a synagogue member earlier in the day would think quite the opposite.

    And still He commanded the act.

  196. ( |o )====::: – as usual you avoid the question. Are you going to bake the cake for the 45 / 12 wedding reception. You would participate in a 12 yr old girls wedding?

  197. Xenia says:

    Or, would anyone here think it ok to bake a cake, arrange flowers, cater, or take photos at a p0rn convention?

  198. Q says:

    Nonnie said –

    “Xenia, I agree with what you said, but I believe the LGBT lobbyist would balk at you (the church/religious) calling homosexual acts “sin.” That is the issue. It is no longer to be considered sin, as in “we are all sinners”….. on par with theft, lying, lust, etc, etc.
    It is to be considered “love” and God created them that way. It would be “sin” to try and change. That is the argument.”

    Nonnie, this is a brilliant observation of what is going on.

    I think in Romans 1 the whole human race was tuned over to sin, homosexuallity being called vile affections and a long list called being filled with all unrighteousness ( fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful…

    The argument seems to be to remove the one before this list (homosexuality).

  199. ( |o )====::: says:

    Is it a return to a pre-20th century “biblical” model?

    Did Lutherans ever officiate such a union before 1900, in America, in any of the pre-american colonies, or in pre-american Germany?

  200. I wasn’t there so I would not know. I have never read the individual church logs to see what individual churches have done. However, whatever they have done does not make it right or wrong on its own.

    Now, your turn. You gonna bake the cupcakes?

  201. Going back to Germany, I don’t know that Lutheran pastors officiated weddings – it was pretty much a state driven affair. I know Luther did not do church weddings and all he wanted to do was bless marriages once a year on the church steps.

  202. Richard says:

    Look, if you don’t support gay marriage, have the cake or flowers delivered by an employee who does. Accept the business – it’s the American way. And swallow your religious objections, which is also the American way. Ask any Quaker whose tax dollars financed a war, any Christian Scientist whose taxes support medical research, any atheist whose child is learning creationism in a public school. Ask any 1960s motel operator who believed God approved of segregation, but had to rent rooms to black people anyway. And ask Richard Bosson, a justice on the New Mexico Supreme Court that ruled a photographer had to document a gay wedding. Respect for those who don’t believe as we do, he wrote, is “ the price of citizenship.”

  203. There may be more than one here but I find it odd that the guy arguing that people should not be able to opt out due to conscience is the same one who opted out of military service for– drum roll please…. conscience – an official CO . 🙂

  204. ( |o )====::: says:

    war & killing vs baking a cake

  205. So now you are the arbiter of people’s conscience? Some guy had to take your place and die on the battlefield in Viet Nam so you could exercise your option to follow conscience and now you refuse others that same option.

    Sounds typical of the neo left.

  206. ? says:

    Should the Christian father of the bride serve alcohol to a known alcoholic at his daughters wedding?

  207. ? says:

    Should S. Treuett Kathy ( Christian Chick Fil a owner) serve a 350 pound glutton high calorie, high fat, junk food ?
    After all they are closed Sundays adhering to Christian principles.

    I never understood support of this fast food chain anyway. They use MSG in their food.. Just google the health problems associated with this chemical.

  208. ? – are you talking should or must?
    Are you talking serve as in make available – or are you suggesting that they force pour the drink or chicken down someone’s gullet?

  209. Babylon's Dread says:

    Jesus saying “go the extra mile” was no command it was his wisdom. Jesus wasn’t being coercive he was countering coerciveness.

    But I like the analogy that forcing people to service something vile is like the Romans forcing their inferior to carry their junk

  210. Babylon's Dread says:

    26 “Woe to you, when all people speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets.

    I am pretty sure that when this sorts out we will have no trouble parsing which prophets get praise

  211. ? says:


    If a Father of the bride is paying for the wedding (thus under his control whether alcohol is served at all) don’t you think he is responsible for serving an alcoholic alcohol?
    Isn’t the responsibility on him for making it available?

  212. ? says:


    Should Pastor’s serve alcohol at their kids wedding on church grounds? (under age bride and groom)

  213. Kevin H says:

    Well, I am sure glad that we are told in Scripture that when Jesus turned water into wine at that wedding (after people had already partaken of all the previous wine) that He first made sure that there was no one there who might imbibe on the wine too much or had a propensity toward alcoholism.

  214. ( |o )====::: says:

    “Some guy had to take your place and die on the battlefield in Viet Nam so you could exercise your option to follow conscience and now you refuse others that same option.”

    nobody had to die on a battlefield in VietNam for anyone

    no one had to end up there for any reason if they joined us resisting the draft and the war

    this is a new low for you, but I’m not at all surprised, you have carved out your self entertaining little niche here on Michael’s blog to mock and try to rile up anyone you don’t agree with.

    such a sad, powerless bully

  215. ? – the father perhaps has the responsibility to cut off the drinks to a guy who is drunk. I don’t think he is under responsibility to say “no drinks for you”
    Now if a father does not want to invite a known alcoholic that is his choice.

    ? – should alcoholic beverages be banned from homes with minor children?

  216. G,
    “such a sad, powerless bully”

    Who is the bully? – I say you, the one who has freedom to exercise his conscience at the same time, not only denying others the same, but under threat of law enforcement.

    et tu the bully.

  217. Xenia says:

    Oddly, G, I have always seen you as the blog’s bully.

  218. Surfer51 says:

    # 152
    Randal you are a sane voice that is high lighted after reading through all 218 above posts.

    Although Michael’s point about his son being subjected to programming is a valid point.

    When I was raising my own son so long ago, he was sent to the principals office because he believed in Adam and Eve and the Almighty God created the heavens and the earth.

    His teacher was teaching him that he came from pond scum as a result of the Big Bang and he told her she was not correct in her views.

    As a result he was made to feel as if he were a bad person for his own personal beliefs and had to go to the principals office, where they treated him as if he had done something really bad.

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