Things I Think

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64 Responses

  1. Babylon's Dread says:

    The prophet of the Old Covenant spoke to Israel about their failure to live out covenant faithfulness. Israel had established at Sinai that they would not receive the direct voice of God. They proved over and again that they would also resist the mediated voice of God given through the prophets.

    We are not different. Like the Israel and later the Jews we always resist the Holy Spirit.

  2. Michael says:

    Yes, we do…and we should expect the same results they received.

  3. Em says:

    resisting the Holy Spirit? … could you elaborate? please and thank you

  4. Michael says:

    Em,

    God speaks to all of corporately as a people and as individuals through His word and through His Spirit.
    I believe the voice of God in the church is often squelched by culture and politics and in our own lives through outright rebellion.
    When you read the Sermon on the Mount that is the voice of God…and at least in my life, an impossible standard to live up to and a place where i come to know my need for repentance.

  5. DavidM says:

    Regarding #2: I agree, but I thin one can call that “success”. IN II Timothy 4:7, 8 it seems that Paul is essentially saying “I have been successful in what God has called me to”. He is speaking of obedience and faithfulness to his calling. In being obedient, whether we feel we succeed or fail, we ultimately have succeeded.

  6. Michael says:

    DavidM,

    Excellent point…agreed.

  7. Josh the Baptist says:

    The implications of #1 make me incredibly uncomfortable.

  8. Em says:

    thank you, Michael… still ponder on that “still small voice” as it is so easy to imagine and rationalize…
    “whether we feel we succeed or fail, we ultimately have succeeded.” those feelings are not to be trusted, i wholeheartedly agree – the devil can build up quite a data base on which to play on our feelings … positive and negative feelings, both
    the joy of the Lord, truly is our strength … can that be said to be the joy of *knowing* our Lord or is that joy the Holy Spirit, Himself? or both

    good thinking up there, BTW 🙂 IMHO

  9. Em says:

    Josh, think of all the O.T. prophets – how uncomfortable they must have been 🙂
    folk didn’t exactly, ultimately stand up and cheer any of them, did they?

  10. JoelG says:

    #2…… yes

  11. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I think the implications are more dire than I wrote.
    The refusal to confront our own sins while pounding on the perceived sins of the culture is nothing more than a tried and true recipe for the judgment of God to fall on us.
    I spent the weekend vacillating between anger and depression…I wonder if the die is already cast.

  12. Em says:

    i spent the weekend involved in some family reminiscing… Long Beach Civic Auditorium came up – home of The Old Fashioned Revival Hour – would a civic auditorium even consider allowing a Christian organization to be identified with the facility today? and a cousin had noted that, when her grandparents wanted to adopt her the judge (San Francisco) made a condition of the adoption that she had to be in Sunday School throughout her childhood years – gasp!
    the church hasn’t so much withdrawn as it has “adjusted”… the good is evil and the evil is good?

  13. filbertz says:

    Michael,
    I think your #1 thought today identifies the crux of a powerless church–the so-called prophetic voices all seem to lead to large numbers, large salaries, large facilities, large egos, and large reputations. It doesn’t fit the biblical model & as BD pointed out, results in flaccid faith.

  14. Papias says:

    #1 is a good reminder.

    This from the “Hall of Faith”…

    “Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated– of whom the world was not worthy–wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.”
    Heb 11:36-40 ESV]

  15. UnCCed says:

    I always wondered, of all CC traditions, why the “prophesy isn’t foretelling, it’s forth-telling” was so regularly repeated. I mean a plain reading of the NT does’t really support that.
    Well, after over a decade (just for me) of seeing a lot of the fruit of the Caesar model of church government, while not all the guys obfuscate real accountable, this model sure does make it the easiest.
    It didn’t really start to sink till I noticed the growing practice of guys “appoint” boards made up of NO ONE from the flock they “pastor.” But know I know when you hand-pick your cronies from other ministries, also Caesars, it’s too convenient.
    I’m not sure if it’s illegal, but I’m pretty sure when the laws regarding churches were stated that you must have a board, they weren’t thinking you’d distrust EVERYONE from that org to help run it. You’d be surprised how many churches pull this for years. It really can stunt growth when no one is trusted.
    Hmmm.

  16. UnCCed says:

    I forgot to add, CC tradition is there’s no more prophets because then “leaders” would have to listen.

  17. UnCCed says:

    I dare anyone to look-up each example of prophesy in the NT and take it to their pastor and ask him, “so we believe God is done using prophets like in OT?” “This ONLY means reading word-for-word from the Bible?”

  18. pstrmike says:

    UnCCed

    Calvary Chapel is not the only denomination/movement that does not place a strong emphasis on prophecy as a wide spread gift today. That emphasis will vary with different pastors. It is my belief that the misuse of that gift far exceeds its legitimate operation.

    I have heard what I considered legitimate prophecy, I have also been given prophetic words of knowledge, although veryinfrequent. I think we live in a time when prophetic word is rare, and I can only surmise that is because of the abuse that goes along with hyper sensationalism.

  19. UnCCed says:

    pstrmike I agree.
    I also can’t help, but wonder if “we live in a time when prophetic word is rare” because it’s not really welcome, except by those that would be hand-picked.
    That really doesn’t seem like total openness to whatever God would do.
    Paul even went so far as instruct what to do when someone would prophecy – we have a framework – why the fear?

  20. Steve Wright says:

    As someone who wrote my Masters Thesis on the spiritual gifts with one chapter devoted to prophecy I can attest that CC is one of the few places you might hear people still define with foretelling – including yours truly.

    MaArthur, the Dallas Seminary profs and every other cessationist (partial or full) holds to that forth-telling definition, which, in agreement with UnCCed is wrong. To define prophecy as predominantly something with no “predictive” aspect to it is lunacy when one looks at the usages of the words in an exhaustive manner.

  21. pstrmike says:

    I doubt we ever have had a total openness to whatever God would do. I am increasingly asking myself what that might look like. I would think that there is always going to be a mixture of wheat and chaff, I question how much vice man can or will set aside to see God work.

  22. Eric says:

    Lately I’ve been reading the start of Ezekiel. Chapters 1 and 3 are right on this theme. Tell my people the words I give you, but they aren’t going to listen, because they are a rebellious people, but you have to tell them anyway. If someone sins and you don’t point it out, you’re in trouble too, but if you point it out and they still sin, it’s on their head.

    But it is still ok to hope. Sometimes people hear the word and repent. At least some people. It was right to pray this time last year that whatever Mars Hill would become would be healthier and holier that it currently was. It is right to pray now the good ministry of GfA survives while the rotten is dismantled.

    It’s ok to hope that Francis Chan, who surely is aware of all the reports online, has been informing himself as he sees fit, considering what Nathan-like challenge is called for. If KP is unrepentant, he’s able to denounce him to the donor base. He hasn’t been connected long enough that he would lose face by doing so. It’s a shame it takes a celebrity to get a message heard widely, but this may be God’s way this time.

  23. Em says:

    “The refusal to confront our own sins while pounding on the perceived sins of the culture is nothing more than a tried and true recipe for the judgment of God to fall on us.”

    i’m mulling whether the sins of the culture are any of the church’s business… @#12 i related that “Christian values” were, not so long ago, respected in the U.S. – whatever the cause, we’ve been marginalized at best and the churches don’t get it… pray for the church to refocus, to listen to the voices like the ones that show up here – really pray

  24. Em says:

    chaos… because of my late husband’s work i used to hear that word occasionally (Chaos theory)… i’m hearing it again in various corners and i’m thinking how very critical it is for the church to focus on the Eternal as the world becomes aware that it is indeed accelerating into a very chaotic state – please remember that God is the prime intelligence of the universe and He CAN handle chaos to a good end, but it looks like the ride is going to get quite rough … or so it seems to me

  25. Andrew says:

    Steve @ 20. I tend to agree with you that prophecy does include foretelling. However, because of this, its all the more reason we should test these prophets. When they are wrong even once, they need to be labeled as false prophets and treated as such.

  26. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    For my own understanding, is anyone saying that they have heard the voice of God telling them to bring a prophetic message on their blog?

    I can see someone saying, “as a Christian I have a duty to bring a straying brother back in line and I think I can do it through blogging. But… God told me??

    Can someone help define the prophetic message here?

  27. Em says:

    MLD, my #24 was a “prophetic message” … lol is the term taken from Scripture?
    once at the end of the day and trying to counsel with a sister in the Lord, i thot to myself, i haven’t a clue as to what i am trying to convey here… she responded, “thank you, that was a blessing and just what i needed to hear.”
    maybe, the prophesy is in the ears of the hearer? maybe it doesn’t have anything to do with the person speaking? … dunno … i, too, am confused as to when what is said moves into prophesying

  28. randall slack says:

    Success or failure is a concept defined by man in opposition to the Bible. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel all failures as defined by men, yet all three will most likely hear, “Well done, good and faithful servant.”

    Pastors so-called are considered successful by the size of their congregations, buildings, seminars, may very well hear, “Depart from me, you who work iniquity. I never knew you.”

    We do well to consider that the only opinion that matters is God’s. “There is only service and faithfulness where you have been called” – well said.

    “There is no such thing as a “friend” you can eliminate from your life with a keystroke…” Boy, is that the truth. I have found out that the hard way having had pastors “friend me” until the first time I disagreed with them or challenged the inconsistencies in their lives.

    The internet is a blessing and a curse. A blessing for those who are sincere and faithful and a curse for those who are trying to hide their sins. Those who know the truth are obligated to tell others. And the truth is:

    Using money collected to further the gospel for your own enrichment makes you a liar and a thief.

    Demanding those who serve with you to sign confidentiality agreements makes you a deceiver.

    Threatening those who expose the evil you are attempting to hide from your “supporters” makes you a bully.

    And running away when the truth comes out so that you can do damage control, makes you pathetic.

    Think about it…

  29. brian says:

    It was actually fairly simple when I was in the corporation full time, basically I was human filth, child of Satan, deceiver of the brethren etc so I started off from that vantage point and went down from there. I still have to admit my personal favorite is Im a “spiritual abortion”, that one is truly unique. Yes I have been called each of these, to my face. To my shame it hurt. To be honest, the people who said these things were trying to get across to me just how reprobate and truly lost I was /am and I guess they felt it helped me get the point. I think Jeffery Dalmer / Hitler reference was a bit over the top but again it was to try to get just how depraved and vile all of us are in our sin and just how much God hates us until we become a Christian, actually He still hates us after that but because He sees Jesus He does not hate us as much.

    Anyway, Michael this is one of the truest phrases spoken

    “The venerable Hatchet also posits that the reason why more will not speak prophetically is that failure is anathema to the church today.” Absolutely it is and next to showing grief it is the vilest of human traits and always has been.

    Also very true “The prophets can no longer be slain, but they can be slandered and sent to the margins.” And there are some who miss those days of being able to kill the prophets, they miss it real bad, but they can still say their little voodoo curse prayers and prance around hoping to send a few of the “enemy” to hell. It used to really scare me, but I no longer believe in magic spells. That is not a crack at prayer to God that is quite different. I have come to understand that I most likely brought much of this on myself for making myself a target so I could take the hit to just feel something after being numb for so many years. I think I actually would fish for some of those curses and push buttons to get a reaction. In some ways I am not sure I am remembering some of this in the proper context viewed through so much self-inflicted and to some degree others inflicted pain. If that makes any sense. When I say corporation I am meaning the machine that grinds people up spiritually not the Church of Jesus.

  30. Michael says:

    Whenever we are making a scripturally accurate call for the church to address injustice, we are speaking prophetically.

    “We” being anyone who is making that call, whether they be Christian or pagan.

  31. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The words of the prophet are written on the subway walls

    https://edithlevyphotography.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/rome-subway_viewable1.jpg

  32. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    MLD, per your question, answered by Bullinger and Zwingli. 16th century polemics against corruptions in the priesthood led them to reconceive the pastoral ministry less in priestly terms and more in prophetic terms. There are problems with that, of course, but the working definition of what is prophetic has shifted, a lot. I don’t think you can make a serious case that prophetic activity of any kind was normative even in the OT period based on Deut 16-18 and the prophetic literature. The prophetic books should not even be taken as normative for prophetic activity as a whole.

    There isn’t a clear, concise definition of prophecy just as there isn’t a clear or concise definition of witchcraft in ancient polemical writings. To go by Baptist preferences in the last century prophecy is just preaching but the seven daughters of Philip the evangelist raise the question of why so many Baptists haven’t been ordaining women for centuries.

    One of the biggest problems for cessationists is that the existence of the OT prophetic books in some sense presupposes the insufficiency of the Torah, though the Torah itself indicates a need for a prophetic. But the prophet is not described as playing more than an occasional or ad hoc role to go by Deut 16-18. Prophetic activity, taken as a whole and taken as a body of literature, is an intermittent and occasional activity. If the priests were doing their jobs and the kings were well studied in the law then in many cases prophets would be superfluous.

  33. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    to clear something up, I’m very much an ex-Pentecostal for a variety of reasons but cessationist arguments front load too many assumptions that I don’t think they can necessarily prove into their case-making. I’ve come to be skeptical about the conventional cessationist and charismatic positions because I don’t think they have formulated a historically or textually persuasive practical definition of prophetic activity to begin with. It seems more an ad hoc occasional role than a regular one.

    Compare ancient Israelite prophetic oracles to other oracles from the ancient near eastern empires around the same time frame and the Israelite and Judean prophets come off as pretty cranky. A secular author could propose that when you have a monotheistic religion and your nation fails you can’t use the old standard-issue polytheistic explanation of “Well, their god(s) beat ours and must be better”. So within Jewish writings the only acceptable alternative explanation was some variation of “Well, we must have done or said something to deserve this loss.” and that can be taken as a secular riff on how Jewish prophecy developed its distinctly harsh internal tradition of critique.

  34. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    something I didn’t remember to mention was the case of Jonah. Jonah’s words were effective in being the means through which God brought about repentance from Ninevah but Jonah was angry because what he declared did not come to pass. The prediction, as a prediction, didn’t come about, but the message had the effect of leading people to seek God’s mercy and repent. The irony, of course, is that Jonah was angry about having failed even though that failure was evidence of success. Tim Bulkeley had a nice little post explaining this book of the Bible, pointing out that as pure prediction Jonah certainly failed but as a prophet who (eventually) did what God commanded and warned those God called him to warn, the warning had the desired effect, even if that was an effect Jonah didn’t want.

  35. Eric says:

    Yes, I was thinking of Jonah – in modern-day terms, he was the most successful evangelist in the OT. With him in mind we can pray for a good outcome even if we don’t expect one.

    A preacher once asked whether there was anyone in the bible recorded as being faithful, for whom everything went well. We could only think of Enoch and Jabez, who get a few verses each while the likes of Jeremiah (our text for that series) got 50 chapters.

  36. Well just as I don’t think just anyone has the call to the office of the ministry, I hold the same opinion about the prophetic office. Otherwise, those who stood up saying “thus says the Lord” because they not only heard those words, but were told by the authority of their office to go out and speak it – they are just relegated to the ordinary.

    How many bloggers begin their articles against this KP dude by saying “thus says the Lord!” ?

  37. Steve Wright says:

    I think the word itself, coupled with its usages in Scripture, makes it pretty clear what the definition happens to be. That being said, I reject fully the idea that church service is going to consist of a bunch of people standing up and making predictions of the future. Likewise I reject the connection to a spiritual gift with what we see in the Old Testament office (or for that matter, the New Testament office which I believe ceased with the apostolic office) However, that does not mean we have to redefine the word to insert it into other things – like Lewis wrote once, we already have words for those things. (Opening lines from the chapter on prophecy from my thesis follow below if interested)

    The gift, found in First Corinthians 12:10, is literally just the one word, prophecy (προφητεία). Nevertheless, a wide difference of opinion exists over the understanding of this word, in the context of spiritual gifts. Therefore, a more detailed study of the word is warranted.

    According to Strong’s, the word derives from prophet, προφήτης, literally a foreteller, a combination of the Greek verb, φημί, and the preposition, πρό. The definition of the verb is to state something orally or in writing, and is translated fifty-seven times as “say” and once as “affirm.” The preposition means “before,” used in three different ways; as a marker of position in front of an object, as a marker of a point of time to another point of time, and as a marker of precedence in importance or rank. A close examination of each of the forty-eight uses in Scripture shows the temporal usage clearly in thirty-four cases, with an additional seven more that would likely be classified temporally, as opposed to spatially (cf. Mark 1:2). Noted Greek scholar, Dr. A.T. Robertson, finds only four instances of the spatial use.

  38. Steve Wright says:

    I would add, the best thing to do, though it takes time, is simply look at every usage in the Bible where someone is called a prophet and see if there is a direct connection in the label with the fact the guy (or gal) spoke the future in advance.

    Keep a running tally, and draw your conclusion based on the revelation of Scripture.

  39. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    I would say one of the most pervasive shortfalls in discussing prophecy is starting in the NT rather than the OT. 1 Cor is not where we should start. We should start with the torah and work forward.

    Steve, MLD, you’ve both touched on things Bullinger and Zwingli covered. They argued the offices were all gone, period, fulfilled in Christ, though limited/occasional gifts might be given.

    I’m not sure I agree with a tendency they have to collapse all spiritual gifts into the role o the bishop or pastor just yet.

  40. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    Steve, do agree about that approach. I think you’ll find that the earlier you are in the Bible, especially in the Torah and the early narrative literature, the more closely you see the roles of prophet and judge tied together. The role of the prophet in the Torah presupposes a certain insufficiency in scripture. Prophet seem to get consulted in situations where the case law and precepts of the Torah do not address the situation at hand. Even within the OT canon itself prophecy is presented as a pretty ad hoc and occasional thing.

  41. Wenatchee, I didn’t suggest that the office was gone, but if you are going to listen to a prophet you had better check to see if he has been called to that office.

    I could stand around all day telling people “stay under the spout where the glory comes out” and you would be wise to pay attention, but I am not being prophetic.

  42. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    MLD, that’s a good point. Most of the tests as to the legitimacy of the calling are after the fact and involve either capital punishment or ignoring them. Even an Isaiah testifying as to a calling could be greeted with some skepticism. The tests we’re given in the scriptures for assessing calling are conspicuously post hoc. 🙂

    But fidelity to the revealed scripture is primary. Jeremiah’s condemnation of the scribes making the scriptures themselves into lies comes to mind. I think careful attention to the judicial sequence of Deut 16-18 suggests to us that the local tribal chiefs and judges should not the scriptures well enough that even the priest or judge would not be needed, let alone the king, let alone the prophet, who appears last in the sequence.

  43. Em says:

    #33- “The Pharisee’s real problem was that they drastically overvalued the role of theology in spiritual life and made theological correctness the chief religious virtue.”

    i value very highly the correct interpretation of Scripture and i believe that it is where we find the Word of God today…. while not disagreeing with your point, was it the role of theology or THEIR role that they overvalued?

  44. uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Wanatchee,

    Who was the female prophetess that God instructed the king told his wise men and male prophets to gain direction and guidance?

  45. uriahisaliveandwell says:

    To tell his wise . .

  46. uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Or rather to send his wise men and prophets to her.

  47. Steve Wright says:

    I don’t start in 1 Cor – I quoted a thesis that was about the gifts listed there. However, if we are talking about something today, emphasis in the New is certainly wise. Plus, it is one thing to see how something started, but we recall that with all theology God has progressive revelation (even the non-dispensationalist recognizes that obvious point)

    Even if I fully granted the judge comparison, who cares really. Judges stopped in Israel when the monarchy began. I’m not sure that connection is significant anyway, but it has limited relevance.

    God gave four offices to the Church – two ceased with the completion of Scripture (apostle and prophet) and the two that are closely related (evangelist, and pastor/teacher) remain. There are no prophets today in the sense of a universal message to the Church that supplements Scripture, and if they are just proclaiming Scripture, they may be pastor/teachers or evangelists but they are not prophets.

    There is the gift of prophecy (and that is the point in the list, even the wording does not imply that someone with a prophetic word is a prophet). The QB sometimes does a quick-kick punt on 3rd and long but we don’t call him a punter.

    I believe God still can give, like with a word of wisdom or knowledge, a word or prophecy for a specific stituation to a specific audience and time – that is not a thus saith the Lord to the entire Church.

    When the NT authors quote the Old and call them prophets (not just examples like Isaiah but even David is called such) they do so because they are quoting something wirtten that predicted the future about the Church and/or Christ.

  48. Muff Potter says:

    @ uriahisaliveandwell,

    You might be thinking of Huldah. Google her up, her story is sometimes glossed over in conservative circles (both Jew & Gentile) because of ‘gender roles’.

  49. Em says:

    as i think about the topic being discussed here – prophets – it occurs to me that the Church doesn’t need prophets… we have all the instruction we need to function
    we do have a book that lays it all out – Revelation – we get a little confused trying to fit it into our visual displays and graphs instead of just reading and pondering IMHO

  50. uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Prophets did not speak only of the Messiah, but also to warn, to deliver what or how or what consequences would come upon people for practicing certain behaviors, for disobediance, and to encourage strengthen , or to confirm. ALSO TO CORRECTHAT WHICH WA BEING PUT FORTH. Such as bad or corrupted teachings and interpretations

  51. uriahisaliveandwell says:

    Hasn’t anyone here ever felt or experience a dream or vision, adeep impression that had to do wit the Lord and one or moreperdons concerning thaol individually or as a group, or even in terms of word of knowledge?

  52. Steve Wright says:

    Sometimes a prophet was called in the OT to only speak against God’s enemies, specifically when God’s enemies were hurting God’s people. There is no indication this prophet condoned the sins of his own people taking place at such times either.

    Today we are far more likely to read stories about Jesus opposing the NRA, Jesus driving hybrid autos, Jesus attending gay weddings and other causes of the left than we would see Jesus’ name specifically attached to and used as a basis for argument about opposition to tax increases or Obamacare. I’m talking mainstream political media – not random anecdotal voices. Huffington Post and so forth.

    The religious left.

    Now, when causes on the left leave the privacy of the mosque or home and (in the name of PC and tolerance) result in harm to God’s people (and their children and grandchildren) then a “prophetic” voice seems not just appropriate but almost required from the salt of the earth.

  53. Michael says:

    You’ve got to be kidding.
    My Facebook and Twitter feeds are endless invective against the godless left invoking the name of Jesus to support all the causes near and dear to the right.

    Christians are willing to speak ‘prophetically” to all manner of issues except the ones in their own camp.

  54. Em says:

    i think we abuse the word “prophet” when applying the term to the Church – we need instruction and exhortation from the Book, what we don’t need is someone telling us, “I have a special revelation to share, so listen up … ”

    if i had a dream about someone in danger or in need of direction would i share it? only if i could reconcile it to Scripture … i had a couple very detailed prophetic-so-called dreams before coming to Christ – they came true within the month – the only take away that i got from that was that there is more to this world than what we see and i didn’t want any part of such dreams … i have heard others tell of visions and voices in their teen years (this was before the drug culture invaded)

    my point is that i wouldn’t rely on anyone’s “word of knowledge” – just wouldn’t – could such a thing occur? a unique and new directive from God to be given out? i guess so … dunno

  55. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Pat Robertson used to use the word of knowledge gift everyday on the TV. 100% evidence the gift is no longer for today.

    But it did make you wonder how he knew that someone out there had a tummy ache. 😉

  56. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    People in O.T. times didn’t want to hear a person speak truth either. Instead, they just wanted to rely upon those who gave a message of peace and safety.

  57. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    For me, if someone came to me to bear witness to something that they believed God laid upon their heart to are with me, I would certainly listen, consider, and take precautions, then wait and see what doors opened, closed, and out of wisdom, led by the Spirit Who bear witness to the conviction of my own heart, mind, and spirit. I want to know the truth as it enables me to make an informed decision in guiding the course I might pursue.

  58. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    “to share with me”

  59. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    Uriah, it was Huldah, though Muff got to answering the question before I did.

  60. Uriahisaliveandwell says:

    “When the NT authors quote the Old and call them prophets (not just examples like Isaiah but even David is called such) they do so because they are quoting something wirtten that predicted the future about the Church and/or Christ.”

    “quoting” Was not a quote at the time such was being prophesied. When authors of NT brought to remembrance those things that had come to past, it was to draw attention to how God’s promise and covenant were being kept and how all concerning the Messiah was or had in NT times been manifested. However, even in NT times, their were prophets, such as John the Baptist, the four daughters, Zachariah, and the prophetess mentioned when Jesus parents came to the temple. In this, I do not believe that there was an end to God raising up Prophets, as well as, gifting others to prophesy given that prophesy is not only for the purpose of bearing witness to what is written in what we know as scripture.

    At the same time, just as there are false pastors, there are false prophets.

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