Things I Think…
1. The worst lie told to victims of abusive churches is that they must hold to some “biblical” standard of behavior in the aftermath…but their victimizers don’t.
The abused are required to forgive people who refuse to repent. They are expected to be the gracious ones…while they carry the wounds and perps just carry on. It’s a perversion and distortion of biblical justice straight from the pit of hell…
2. There is nothing unbiblical about seeking justice and demanding righteousness while working towards forgiveness…
3. I get asked all the time “how do you know if a leader has repented or not?”. If they haven’t repented to the people they have hurt, they haven’t repented…
4. If numbers are the measure of “anointing”, Joel Osteen and Oprah are the most anointed people of all time…
5. Victims are also led to be believe that “justice” and “grace” are somehow in opposition to each other…this is also a lie from the pit…
6. Whenever someone writes here to defend Bob Coy or the Rozell’s, what they are really doing is saying that the victims don’t matter, but their idolatry does…
7. When Jesus came to the tomb of Lazarus, He wept openly. I believe part of that weeping was in empathy with Lazarus and the mourners…I weep at the lack of empathy like that in the church now…
8. When people come to me for counseling advice post church trauma, I always recommend secular help…because they see right through the narcissism impersonating holiness…
9. One of the reasons I believe in a literal devil is that it takes a malignant consciousness to try to destroy the most vulnerable in the church or the world…
10. If you’ve ever considered supporting this ministry, now would be a good time…
You may want to revisit my comment. Forgiveness is something we all want from God and need from Him; no matter the crime. Besides Blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, forgiveness is afforded to all of us. We all want His forgiveness, for our actions, and yes even our thoughts. That does not condone what has been done to the victims. They are the ones harmed. My Bible tells me they’ll be forgiven IF THEY ask for forgiveness. Regarding sincerity, only the Lord knows the man’s heart. Those harmed need to hear their offenders admit to their offense, and yes this does help. Remember/ that King David was a man after God’s heart but he did some terrible things. Psalms 51 is a heartfelt plea from David for/to be forgiven. I believe the Lord’s anointing was on Bob. God ministered through Bob and helped many in his congregation. It has nothing to do with numbers in a congregation. Numbers validate 0. Olsteen & Oprah have a different message that I don’t believe in. Regarding article from a Doctor expounding on the cure for the soul, that is wasted energy. It’s just not that complicated. Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, is the restorer of our souls. When we have His Holy Spirit inside of us we have all that we need. Whether we allow Him to work through us and in us, whether we die to self, is our choice, but HE is all that we need. As a Christian, as I get older, I want to focus on ‘killing off’ my self righteousness. I want to help as many as I can with positive words and sharing things the Lord shared through His word that encourages us So lets do that. The Lord says thru Psalmist David this. Psalms19:14 says ‘Let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable to you my Lord my Rock & My Redeemer’.
Also as I’ve gotten older I’ve learned not to put my faith in men; that includes Bob Coy or anyone else.
Sean,
I’m sure you mean well, but I disagree strongly.
Coy was not King David…he was an amusing punk who acquired a following and he is utterly disqualified from ministry.
His forgiveness is between him and God…but I have a clue about how many lives he destroyed.
If He was all we need, He wouldn’t have placed us in community…
I wholeheartedly agree with this, Michael. “The worst lie told to victims of abusive churches is that they must hold to some “biblical” standard of behavior in the aftermath…but their victimizers don’t.
The abused are required to forgive people who refuse to repent. They are expected to be the gracious ones…while they carry the wounds and perps just carry on. It’s a perversion and distortion of biblical justice straight from the pit of hell…
2. There is nothing unbiblical about seeking justice and demanding righteousness while working towards forgiveness…” Well said, Michael. I can’t tell you how many times I have seen mostly Christians abusing other Christians and holding over their head that they need to forgive the abuse they just go hammered with from them and return for more abuse while the perps skate. They need to lay a guilt trip on so they can take the conviction off of them and put it on someone else. . That is exactly the way the majority of them think. Right. There is nothing unbiblical about seeking justice and demanding righteousness while working towards forgiveness.
it’s difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to some ministries/ministers. we tend to be sentimental or rosy-glassed or at the other extreme throw the baby out with its bathwater. I will admit, it can be a challenge–like searching for the ring the dog swallowed.
I think a lot of this goes to one word “SUBMIT”. Abusive pastors want nothing more than for those they hold captive to submit to them.
Well Michael, you surely are passionate. I respect that. Sounds like you have much more knowledge than I do, so I can understand your feelings for sure. I don’t believe from my reading of scriptures that God offers forgiveness to those who don’t ask for it..or admit to needing. There is a lot of negative I could say…trust me on that. I observed and saw things that troubled me, but i was always at a arms length with him and his leadership. I wish you guys well. Unfortunate…very unfortunate he damaged so many people. I think, regardless of consequences, he should come clean. Sean
This is something severely lacking in the church as a whole today. Leaders and the people in general are horrified by abuse in their congregation when it comes out. But they often just try to make it go away, instead of dealing with what happened and seeking the truth of the situation and justice. No, not every accusation will be true, BUT not everyone is false either. And SO many don’t care to set their own uncomfortable feelings aside to seek out the truth and help the victim heal and confront the sin of the one committing abuse. Truth doesn’t seem to matter anymore, only personal comfort and keeping the status quo of the church in place.
Sean
“ My Bible tells me they’ll be forgiven IF THEY ask for forgiveness.”
My Bible tells me if I wrong someone before I seek God’s forgiveness I need to make restitution with those I wronged. Of course every situation is different and the ability to do may not be available, but the principal is like a rock.
Now what did Coy do to make restitution? I really don’t know, but even if he did and they forgave him, the consequences of his actions still follow him and prevent him from returning to the same position he had.
If he wants to serve God maybe Coy should become a quiet servant to others and drop the Rock Star ideals of his previous employment as a pastor.
Sean,
I do know things.
Those things have made it very hard to watch the idolaters plead for their hero.
I don’t sleep well..
Jessie,
“Truth doesn’t seem to matter anymore, only personal comfort and keeping the status quo of the church in place.”
Truer words were never spoken…
3. I get asked all the time “how do you know if a leader has repented or not?”. If they haven’t repented to the people they have hurt, they haven’t repented…
Some practical ways this works out:
I’ve tried to encourage this third party. It failed. From both sides, the congregant and the clergy.
I’ve tried to contact a congregant I could have dealt with better, who later left. They wouldn’t answer or return the call(s).
I’ve seen men of God accused, and I’ve been accused myself, sometimes by the same person of not leaving someone alone after they’ve left as well as passively “shunning them.” It is so frustrating. But perhaps it’s part of the process…(?)
Have any scriptural or practical advice on such matters?
Any anecdotes of success?
Jtk,
I’ll never criticize good faith efforts to make things right.
Some folks are more comfortable with things being broken.
I know you and you will do what you can and a little more…too many don’t care at all…
The prayer says, “Forgive us our debts (trespasses) as we forgive our debtors (those who trespass against us)…
It does not say “overlook” our trespasses…
MM @5 pm makes the point better than i as there is instruction on restitution … The word “if” should never follow “I’m sorry”. IMHO
Revelation is so clear on housecleaning and accountability…
Keep on keeping on, Michael – God keep you
Thanks, Michael
I wonder what the stories are, could be, for attempts (successful and unsuccessful) at reconciliation.
Have you heard of Ken Sande’s book “The Peacemaker?”
We used his process and his advice, (he has a list of people who help with the process too), which is quite insightful and eye opening.
In our superficial and disposable society, I doubt many attempts at true peacemaking happen.
Perhaps you know of some…
Michael,
A mutual friend of ours sent me a link to an article of the secular world’s response to a sexual abuse survivor, an event that happened in your neck of the woods. The video and pictures brought me to tears, to see the natural HUMAN response to such wickedness, and handled by hell bound heathens. I watched what incited this post, and wanted to keep my nose out till it had blown over, because I was way too furious to respond kindly.
I will post here what I wrote to her.
“It astounds me that Christian Culture considers sexual abuse survivors as acceptable losses, and turns on the abused, because god is more important than their abuse or pain. If they get treatment for the trauma, it’s considered turning to the world for answers. Then they are expected to reconcile with, and “forgive” the abuser. It’s complete total irrational and sadistic evil. I have gone from considering this normative in the church to crimes against humanity. It should be outlawed. People should be thrown under prisons. Spectacle should be made of the abuser, and they should rot for life in prison, but the Federal government and State governments will treat it like a DUI, that is if they are even involved, because the church will default to this being an “in house” problem more often than not. If they go outside the church for help, well, you know what the church does then.”
I would add that setting an abused person in a room with the abuser for a proper “biblical reconciliation” is equally as evil.
I will tell you what I have never seen, the people of the church bringing allegations before the church to cause the abuser to repent, or get booted out the damned door. The victims are quickly hushed, and taken to a closed meeting, usually with men, and abused even further by an inconceivable “in house” handling of the situation.
Reuben,
I hear you.
It’s evil as hell.
I no longer just hold the perps responsible but also the congregations that allow and support it.
Not that it matters…it all goes on as if I’d never lived at all.
We know what our Lord thinks of this, those seven churces in Revelation are recorded for good reason… “tolerate” is evidently not acceptable, to say the least… reconcile? Depends on you define repent, i guess….. ?