Things I Think…
1. I’m too exhausted to think… exhausted physically, emotionally, and spiritually. I’ve reached my capacity to absorb the hate, anger, and fear that surrounds us. I wake up from fitful sleep every morning wondering what fresh hell awaits us. I commit to trying to be reasonable, then I am forced to confront the reality that reason and reasonableness are no longer virtues…
2. If you’ve ever written for me or with me you know that one of my mantras is that “you must speak (or write) in a way that people can hear you.” If you simply write to offend, no one will listen other than people who already agree with you. It seems that many don’t care anymore if anyone can hear them or not, they just love the sound of their own voices and the offense they create…
3. All of this is because people on both sides of the divide in this country think they can defeat the other side decisively and their way will be the only way going forward. That’s not how it works in a democracy…where differing groups compromise for the greater good. Thus, whatever we had…that for the most part enabled us all to live peacefully together…is gone…
4. Let me speak clearly what I believe…the process of “defeating” half this country will defeat the whole country…indeed, we may have already all lost what was worth fighting for…
5. One of the most difficult issues I face is how to express the fact that I do not, cannot, and will not support this President while affirming the people possessed of the good will, decency, and character that he lacks who do support him. I understand that many believe he represents a set of values that are cherished and important…but his actions are not those of someone who actually cherishes anything but himself. I have deep respect and affection for many who disagree with me, but simply cannot stay silent in matters that concern the faith…
6. This does not mean I endorse the opposition…indeed it just makes me wonder how we ended up with these two out of 350 million people…and reminds me that the best thing I can do is focus on the kingdom to come…
7. There do not have to be malevolent outside forces creating chaos…we’re doing it well enough ourselves…
8. If you really believe this is all related to end times stuff, while the hell would you try to stop it?
9. Maybe I’m just having a bad day, but I don’t see how we recover any semblance of normalcy anytime soon…as in years…
10. This is a whole different set of issues…but what’s depressing me the most is that the Christianity I embrace doesn’t look much like the Christianity most on public display…in fact, it looks like another faith altogether…
It has been related to end times stuff for over 2,000 years…..
Focus on God’s kingdom is good advice as He is not the author of confusion. If the Church is confused, whose fault is it? Must be ours, i guess…. Sigh. 🙏
I for the life of me cannot comprehend how good people with a conscience can support such a man as Mr. Trump. Yet, I agree with you, Michael, that somehow, someway, they see something I do not see. Many of my friends say if a person follows Trump, they are devoid of morals and conscience. I used to kind of agree with that, but didn’t quite understand it. I also have come to the conclusion they are not all bad people. But I still don’t get it. The fact is, I understand very little of what’s happening around me. I’m flummoxed, my ptsd is off the charts, I can’t sleep either. I’m filled with rage. I’m trying to love everyone, especially those I vehemently disagree with. But man..loving is HARD! It goes against every fiber of my fleshly being. Hate is so much easier. It comes so naturally. I cry with Paul, “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?” Then I breathe, “Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!” But even with that exclamation of hope, I find my heart and mind still broken.
Mike E,
I know lots of Trump supporters who are among the most decent people you’ll ever meet. We simply agree to avoid the topic…though some have ended friendships with me.
Love is hard.
Sacrificial love is harder.
It’s also what Jesus meant when he said “Follow Me”.
I think a broken heart id the proper response to what we see today…I hear you…
One of the hardest things I’ve come to realize is some of my dearest friends, relatives, former co-workers and classmate – many I’ve admired greatly for their great kindness, generosity, contributions to their churches & society turned out to truly only love those who looked like them, worshipped like them, or born in the same land as them. That all their exceedingly wonderful qualities were incredibly, heartbreakingly conditional and ultimately counterfeit. It has been the one of most sorrowful parts of my 67 years. I understand too well now how one third of our nation might fight to the death with another third while the rest might observe comfortably from their living rooms while being kind to their loved ones & immediate neighbors.
No. 5 & 6… One of my frustrations, and the main reason I lurk here less and less is the sentiment that Mike E. shared about his feelings for Trump supporters.
Now, I did not vote for Trump in 2016 and I probably won’t this year (but since I live in California, it doesn’t really matter if I vote for president, since we’d go blue if the Dems nominated a rock). But it’s extremely hard to read through a lot of the posts that go political, because so many motivations and characteristics are put on conservatives/evangelicals like me, that just don’t fit. But no one has ever asked why I almost voted for him or why many of my Christian friends did; and I get the impression that no one here cares because they’ve made up their mind already.
I spent half of my lunch time at work yesterday composing a response to one of the posts, but scraped it because I would have to have defended Trump, and I hate doing that. And I knew that whatever point I made, no matter how well researched, no matter how well worded, it would have been dismissed.
I understand the difficulty you talk about, and I respect the fact that you make the effort to still love those you disagree with.
It is hard.
Sometimes I wish we could just go back to the simpler days of arguing about Skip….
(1). Michael, you and others here HAVE convinced a great number of us to change our thoughts and attitudes on a great number of issues over the years. THANK YOU!
What if you had a post on that?
Or I can via the next Open Blogging.
We all can still persuade SOMEONE!
Of course some people are unpersuadeable…
(2). “I don’t see how we recover any semblance of normalcy anytime soon…as in years…“
-But we can have normalcy in a few of our relationships! This has been really fruitful for me lately. It ain’t everyone, but there’s SOMEONE.
(3). Mike E,
if you can get over the offense, the hate and anger, and really listen to a Trump supporter, you can figure out how a good person can support him.
Regardless of politics, it’ll be good to get over those things for you, for all of us.
Everstudy,
I completely understand.
I’d love to hear that defense IF you care to make it.
All of the stuff thrown at Trump didn’t take him out, Russiagate, Ukrainian collusion…
I’ve been warning some since 2016 about “the boy who cried wolf” and so many (of us) have cried out against him prematurely.
I know one local life long Democrat who told me he is now going to vote for Trump simply because he is disgusted at how people are trying to ruin his life. “A vote for Donald Trump is a vote against the haters.” Or something like that.
If those people are to be persuaded against him, vitriol alone ain’t gonna do it.
I don’t ultimately care if someone votes for Trump or against Trump. I am NOT trying to persuade you.
Michael,
In regards to your #6, I was saying that in the fall of 2016 even before the election. How is it in a nation of 330 million people, we ended up with those 2 a*shats? The election of 2016 (and now the election of 2020) is South Park in real life. I voted for neither the Giant Douche nor the Turd Sandwich in 2016 and 2020 will be no different for me.
Even the Babylon Bee references your #6 and provides with some satire (the sarcasm is witty too):
https://babylonbee.com/news/search-for-the-two-best-possible-candidates-for-president-concludes
Michael and all,
Here is another gem from the Bee:
https://babylonbee.com/news/voting-machine-glitch-showing-voters-two-terrible-major-party-candidates
But it does bring up a valuable point. Even though 90-95% of the voters do this, one does not HAVE to choose between the 2 major party candidates for POTUS. I used to do that, but then I woke up and have been awake since 2008. Maybe if voters did this, we would actually get better candidates, other than the incessant “Vote for Team Red (or Blue), because our candidate is not as bad the candidate for Team Blue (or Red).” The continuing cycle of that that means the bar gets set lower and lower as we circle the drain.
jtk,
I know lifelong Republicans who will be NOT be voting for Trump because of his antics and failures over the past 3 and 1/2 years, so what is your point? All I can say is BFD.
“…as much as possible, think small. You are not in charge of the world. Love what is local, at hand, personal, intimate, unique, and natural. It’s a preference that matters.“
This is helpful advice from Fr Stephen Freeman for times like this.
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2020/06/01/the-violence-of-modernity/
Credit to Matt B. Redmond for sharing this article.
Everstudy,
I think those of us who have opposed this President since before he was president see him through completely different eyes than those who do.
It’s funny you bring up Skip…because I see him and Trump through the same lens…predatory narcissists.
I wonder why evangelicals can’t spot these people…and evangelicals wonder why I can’t see anything positive in them at all.
The only way we move forward is to try to understand each other first, but I think it may be too late in the game for those meetings…
jtk,
You’re always kind to me and I thank you.
At this point, I don’t know if I’ve accomplished anything here, but I’m old and cynical. 🙂
#5 Michael you do a great job of this and your writing has been a model of how to love those you disagree with politically. My folks and other loved family members support Trump. Up until this week I’ve understood that support. However his lack of empathy and mourning for a heart broken nation this week has me questioning his heart and how anyone can support this. He needs a therapist, not a second term.
JoelG,
Thanks for the kind words.
Lest I play the hypocrite, let me be clear…my depth of contempt for Trump knows no bounds.
The church photo op was the end of the line for me in terms of just being quiet.
However, that contempt need not and cannot extend to those who support him…these are friends and family and members of my community that I live with every day.
We have to find a way to live together…
I wish I would take the time to find a certain article before writing this comment (will do so after this comment), but it was referring to someone from A LONG time ago that said it is fruitless to try to convince people of a different point of view once a person has their mind made up. Remind of how online and in person debates are these days.
OK, here it is:
https://qz.com/1513176/john-stuart-mills-philosophy-shows-arguing-online-is-futile/
Prophetic?
And Michael, I agree with you about not keeping in contempt those who support Trump who are our friends, relatives, etc. It is VERY hard at times to do this.
Dan from Georgia,
I wonder if there is any way to find common ground anymore.
I’ve thought about all this endlessly…the choices are to pick a side…when neither side seems righteous, stay in the middle and try to make peace…which seems futile…or close shop and leave out my days quietly.
The last option has great appeal to me…but God gave me a platform…
Michael,
With all that is going on these days, sometimes I just want to shutter myself from the world and not go anywhere anymore, and just stay away from people. Atlanta has had riots, and my home state of MN has been the epicenter of the whole thing.
It’s sad that nowadays we see those who disagree politically are the WORST people ever born, worse than Hitlet, want to eat our children, blah blah blah. Best I can do is be different, in person and online. Unfortunately sometimes when you try to interact with those whom you disagree with, and in a loving and non-confrontation manner, you are treated in return like garbage. Somedays its Pearls before Swine I guess.
But like you I know I am not just to withdraw, but to still interact.
Michael,
I think the reason evangelicals are blind to Skip and Trump is that they sold their birthright for a bowl of porridge.
CM,
From a political perspective there is some truth to that for sure.
I think the larger issue has to do with authoritarianism and a very flawed theology of the ministry…
One way to love Trump supporters is to have a good long talk with one. You first have to set some guidelines for them and yourself, which is, the conversation must be conducted in a calm manner with no name-calling. You might find out that the Trump supporter values the same things you do: good families led by a father, safe streets, an economy based on American enterprise, good jobs, secure borders, etc. They are probably against abortion and might have a dim view of the homosexual agenda. They might want to see Christianity prosper in this nation. They might suspect there is something pretty awful going on behind the scenes that smells like sulfur. Maybe like you, they are leery of globalism and the agenda of the United Nations. If you are a conservative Christian who cares about these things you will find much to love in a Trump supporter.
Where the Trump supporter and I differ is the character- or lack thereof- Trump himself. I don’t believe in his heart he really cares about any of the things I care about. It is really remarkable that this is the person many believe will lead our nation back to some imagined era of righteousness. YET that does not mean that his supporters are wicked people just because they have pinned their hopes on a wicked person. So it is easy for me to love the Trump supporters because they cherish many of the same things I cherish, although not all of them for sure. He’s not going to be president forever and this whackadoodle time in US history will end either in January or another four years but it will end.
It is harder for me to love the liberal who, in my opinion, wants to destroy everything I care about. And they won’t be gone in January or four years later. The chaos and wickedness they have launched will be will us for a very, very long time.
I know a few months ago I said we might vote for Trump over here. I said that in a moment of despair over the wretched things the Left has planned for you and me. I got over that, in case anyone was wondering. I can’t vote for either of the candidates.
But as someone said, this chaos represents the face of America. Not only are our leaders narcissists, most of us are narcissists as well. As a good friend said to me recently, God has given us all these things- the virus, etc.- for us as individuals to repent. It’s not a time for me to ask Trump or Biden or their supporters to repent, it is time for ME to repent. And that is where I am exerting my efforts. If we, as individual Americans, want to console ourselves by telling ourselves we have not played a personal role in the current chaos then we have fooled ourselves. Time to pray, time to repent. Time to be GRATEFUL for all the good things we still have.
Say your prayers!
Love,
Xenia
Xenia,
That…and you…priceless.
Thank you!
FWIW
I am reading something written by a pastor whose name i’ll not mention here regarding the trials ( “judicial”) our Lord was subjected to before his crucifixion… The exceedingly religious Jews who were concerned with their “holy” rituals, Jesus stood and endured their abuse, but He stood, Piilate, a non religious leader to whom a badly beaten/ abused Jesus dialoged and Herod for whom Jesus showed His omniscience disgust by standing without responding – not a man of integrity among them…. So?
So can we take a look at the world Christ died to offer redemption, look at His responses, and find a model for our own situations today? Maybe…..
God keeo.
P.S. Sometimes we think we are casting pearls before swine – but the only pearls we have are God’s truth and the swine? If we are in the presence of a bloated Herod, keep still, perhaps?
Dunno, though, do i? 🙆
Jews who were concerned with their “holy” rituals,<<<
Yet these rituals were given to them by God.
Peabody’s Books! Ha! This used to be my old online bookstore before I was run outta business by Amazon. I clicked on the wrong email address. It’s just me, Xenia.
Yes, dear Xenia, you are correct – but they were using them in a way that God did not approve… Well, considering omniscience, i guess He foresaw what was coming, but…. . 🙆
God keep
Xenia,
Your post is excellent and well-thought out.
I suppose my lament is that there are very few principled people in Washington anymore in either TEAM RED or TEAM BLUE. That is why I have voted for neither a Dem nor a GOP candidate for POTUS since 2004. It is like choosing what poison you want to take. It is seems to be all political theater and the outrage machine (doesn’t matter DNC or GOP).
Unfortunately a man is usually more careful of his money than of his principles.
CM,
I think Trump is very principled, so much so you can know what he’s going to do before he does it. For instance, I’ll bet his kid’s know what he’s going to do before he does it, probably even what he’s going to say.
Now a person may not like or agree with his principles but I think he’s got them.
The only principles Trump has are what works for Trump at that particular moment, what gives him the most publicity (remain positive or negative doesn’t matter), and the like. Trump serves Trump FIRST. So yes Trump has principles in line with his narcissistic personality and his unrelenting self-aggrandizement.
The same principles as a petulant thin-skinned 2 year old brat. I will give you that.
It’s a shame we all can’t just be Americans first, no matter what side of the ‘divide’ we’re on. Especially right now when we need to come together over racial discrimination — a large
majority sees it the same way. 3/4 of us, for example, say that racial inequality is a big
part of the reason folks are marching.
]
Sometimes, if you talk to someone who doesn’t see it like you do, you’ll find common ground. A good example is my son. He’s much more conservative than I am. But I’ve found myself lately agreeing about things he says — or there’s at least common ground we agree on. Get and out talk to folks in person! We have a great deal in common as American citizens. IMHO.
I would say that the majority of the African continent screams inequality as does most of Asia…BUT the reason is not, IMV, racial, but rather where the Gospel was historically embraced. Not brains, necessarily.. Not racial superiority. Question is, “why us gemtiles, God?” Why my people; we started out pretty barbaric as someone noted the other day. …
Because God chooses the foolish and base to confound the wise? Ulp. ….
Regarding my 10:42 this morning: Matthew 26:3-5 & there are other, probably more clear in the Gospels
Well..this is great..I came along here rather late, finding a few remarks criticizing me for having the audacity to express my feelings.
But the best by far, JTK,
“Mike E,
if you can get over the offense, the hate and anger, and really listen to a Trump supporter, you can figure out how a good person can support him.
Regardless of politics, it’ll be good to get over those things for you, for all of us.”
I won’t spend a lot of time responding to being accused by a Christian of hating. Did you not read my post at all? The whole point I was making is that I’ve evolved on the issue and have learned love is the better way. I’m really disappointed you can’t understand that people can disagree with others and still love them. I’m committed to obeying Christ’s command to love all people. Period. So I really don’t appreciate being accused of such a sin as hate. There is one who accuses us. You assume I haven’t listened to Trump supporters? My friends list on Facebook is full of them. And I have talked with them ad nauseum. Then you basically tell me to “get over it.” Well, unbeknownst to you, I already have. A long time ago. Since you feel so free to tell me what I should do, I’ll return the favor. I believe you would do well to reflect on how it’s ok to make accusations like that against someone you don’t even know.
In Union There Is Strength
I have watched this week’s unfolding events, angry and appalled. The words “Equal Justice Under Law” are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation.
When I joined the military, some 50 years ago, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.
We must reject any thinking of our cities as a “battlespace” that our uniformed military is called upon to “dominate.” At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict— between the military and civilian society. It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part.
Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders
who best understand their communities and are answerable to them.
James Madison wrote in Federalist 14 that “America united with a handful of troops, or without a single soldier, exhibits a more
forbidding posture to foreign ambition than America disunited, with a hundred thousand veterans ready for combat.” We do not need to militarize our response to protests. We need to unite around a common purpose. And it starts by guaranteeing that all of us are equal before the law.
Instructions given by the military departments to our troops before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that “The Nazi slogan for destroying us…was ‘Divide and Conquer.’ Our American answer is ‘In Union there is Strength.'” We must summon that unity to surmount this crisis—confident that we are better than our politics.
Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.
We can come through this trying time stronger, and with a renewed sense of purpose and respect for one another. The pandemic has shown us that it is not only our troops who are willing to offer the ultimate sacrifice for the safety of the community. Americans in hospitals, grocery stores, post offices, and elsewhere have put their lives on the line in order to serve their fellow citizens and their country. We know that we are better than the abuse of executive authority that we witnessed in Lafayette Square. We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution. At the same time, we must remember Lincoln’s “better angels,” and listen to them, as we work to unite.
Only by adopting a new path—which means, in truth, returning to the original path of our founding ideals—will we again be a country admired and respected at home and abroad.
James Mattis
Michael,
Thanks for the post by retired General Mattis. Well Done.
Mike E,
Knowing JTK as I do I don’t think he was saying what you thought he was saying…he’s a pretty good fellow…
CM,
It’s a troubling statement…military guys of that rank don’t do that unless they think it critical…
Michael,
I agree. But since Mattis has still a lot of respect among the rank and file of the military, I am hoping his statements will resonate with those NG and active duty members that are currently involved in dealing with the unrest or potentially will be involved. It is both challenging and inspiring (Better Angels [of our Nature]).
Can’t wait to see how Cadet Bone Spurs and all his sock puppets like Tom Cotton react tomorrow. Maybe Trump needs a painful reminder that the members of the military swear an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, not whatever a*shat is in the Oval Office.
Michael 🤷♂️
Mike E. @6:23
You are one of the good guys here… i haven’t seen any hateful posts by you…
In fact I do believe that there are things God hates and, therefore, we should too…. if we were just spiritual/smart enough to figure them out
God keep
directambiguity,
That comment is not consistent with the values of this site and simply won’t be allowed.
The essay in ‘Foreign Policy’ by Gen. John Allen is also very much worth reading in full –
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/03/trump-military-george-floyd-protests/
Duane,
I saw that. There is also the unclassified memo CJCS Milley sent out to all the subordinate commands:
https://twitter.com/thejointstaff/status/1268239884013142017
If Trump aspires to be El Presidente for Life, he needs the backing of the military, which is clearly not happening. At the rate this is going, there will be a 25th Amendment solution even before the election.
The Trump paranoia here is a bit troubling… I see the players that have taken over the Democratic party as a more destructive grroup….
But time will tell and i know we all pray for our nation, so….. 🙏
The thing that both our military and our multi-national corporations share in common is their reliance on the talents and contributions of a diverse workforce. For their own success, these types of organizations understand that they must do everything possible to be an attractive, competitive, fulfilling workplace with opportunities that are blind to color, ethnicity, religion, etc. Not that they are perfect (no one is), but they are leading the nation in the regard. It’s sickening when they are ahead of politicians or religious leaders.
The leaders of our large corporations (and particularly those in cutting edge fields of discovery and innovation) and our military simply cannot endorse the tribalism and destructive instincts of our POTUS, because it would damage the workforce and its mission, decrease or competitiveness, damage recruiting, and eventually tear away at the fabric of these organizations.
Therefore, I am not surprised by the letters from corporate CEOs and military veterans affirming civil rights, the constitution and calling for healing and unity, while pushing back on the divisiveness of the POTUS and his allies.
Jean, you give the corporate world too much credit
Mad Dog Maddis is worth listening to, but i wouldn’t like to be “POTUS” right now
The question in my mind is, who is really pulling strings here? It isn’t Trump – his rhetoric is not the root cause of what happening now… Should he hit back? Guess he never learned in school that it is the one who hits back that gets caught…
Is this a time for serpent wisdom and dove action? Dunno…. ?
This isn’t God’s kingdom – yet
I see the players that have taken over the Democratic party as a more destructive grroup….
My Gawd. Joe Biden could light an orphanage on fire on Christmas Eve and that would be NOTHING compared to how Trump has run roughshod over our country’s morals and standing in the world. Not
to mention his 18,000+ DOCUMENTED lies. The majority disapproves
of him for MANY, MANY DAMN GOOD REASONS.
bob1,
Take a deep bteath….. You and i just don’t reach the same conclusions as we observe the contemporary scene… Time will tell. THEN i give you permission to gloat, if you, and most here, are proven right… . 😘
God keep
Em,
Whoever said anything about gloating?
There are much deeper issues going on here…including the abdication of leadership over the last several months. I’m concerned about our surviving all these shocks…also just as concerned when we can’t
even agree on facts and the truth anymore…. that’s a sure sign of
heading for fascism. I’ve done a fair amount of reading on it and
I’m not just blowing smoke.
bob1,
I’m concerned that we are going to enter flu season this fall with an epidemic already in this country, and ICU usage near capacity, and then a resurgent 2nd wave of C19. All because the POTUS is downplaying the pandemic in this country.
I think the Matthis article is the dam breaking. Many more ex-military, former Trump administration officials, and the like will be speaking up. Senators Murkowski and Ben Sasse are also commenting on this.
I saw this posted on another site:
“The only criteria for Trump appointees appears to be a complete lack of personal integrity and the willingness to prostitute one’s self to Trump. Everyone leaving the Trump carnival-of-the-damned has been replaced by someone worse.
Trump is bad at hiring people. Trump is also bad at respecting people. Trump is bad at showing empathy. Trump is bad at telling the truth. Trump is bad at reading. Trump is bad at speaking coherently. And most of all. He is bad at leadership and relationships with other people. Basic things we learn from early on, on how to succeed with people.
All these things are needed to make allies. Trump makes enemies. And that doesn’t work long term. ESPECIALLY in politics. And not in life. Sooner or later it all comes back to haunt you. Trump is now basically a lone wolf. He’s toxic. We know it. Republican Senators know it. And for sure Mattis, a career military man, knows it. He timed this perfectly to do the most damage.
We all know it’s all about loyalty…… fealty to the orange overlord. And he wonders why he can’t find good help.”
Jean,
I hear you. And you have to wonder with all the confusion about COVID over the last several months, how many people have succumbed to the virus or suffered a hell of a lot of unnecessary confusion because of the absence ack of leadership from the top.
Oh, Wait — that’s right — I can shoot bleach in my vein and it’s all gonna be fine? 🙂
I see we seem to all agree that our Republic is close to disintegrating before our eyes today
We just don agree as to what has fomented this disaster. Trump caused this? Awe come on….
Maybe God has taken His hand of protection off of us as the things that are crashing down upon us now seem too well orchestrated for one mortal man to be behind it….
No leadership from the top? From where i sit (up here on a sofa in the mountains), it is beyond rhetoric and platitudes to stop. What power does the President of the Republic have? He is not a dictator.
I don’t denigrate the outrage expressed. I just do not think it aimed in the correct direction. Except i do agree that we have too many egotistic, non-God-fearing personality boys (generic) that have crept into leadership positions in our churches. They are not fit to do God’s work… I doubt many, not all, even know God’s redemption.
And that cycles back to the question, is God still using our nation to spread the Gospel or are we too full of ourselves, the nation that is, to serve Him?
If one believes Bible prophesy, the Globalism today touted as the popular answer to the world’s condition should send chills up one’s spine .
Is the sky falling? Maybe, but for sure this is the time to be looking up!
As to gloating, that was said in the context of the views expressed here winning the day, solving our perilous condition.
Again, God keep
nd that cycles back to the question, is God still using our nation to spread the Gospel or are we too full of ourselves, the nation that is, to serve Him? If one believes Bible prophesy, the Globalism today touted as the popular answer to the world’s condition should send chills up one’s spine .
Why would you think that God would “use our nation” to spread the gospel? I’m afraid this
is a dispensational/right-wing myth. Our nation is no better or worse than others. The only people I know who would believe that would be American-started churches like the Mormons.
Besides, there are plenty of other countries that God is blessing, much more than ours. Where in Scripture are we so mentioned?
No, globalism is not the boogeyman you say it is. The arguments over it go back to the 1920s when the righties thought FDR was Antichrist, or almost. It’s always been the b-man for dispensational types who think it will lead to (shudder) one world. In my experience, dispensational theology is very, very dark — way too much so. But we can “look around”
and wait for Jesus to rapture us, right?
For the record, most evangelicals (not to mention other parts of the Church) abandoned dispensational thought a long time ago. But if it helps you cope with the world, more power to
ya.
bob1,
“No, globalism is not the boogeyman you say it is.”
Global problems, such as a pandemic, are best met with global solutions.
Jean,
I agree. Especially with public health issues like the coronavirus.
I wish to apologize for my comment last night responding to something JTK wrote. I overreacted and frankly, I was simply in the flesh and my words were borne of a sinful attitude. I apologize to JTK, Michael, and every person who read what I wrote. Please forgive me.
Mike, you’re a blessing to all who read here. Politics bring out the worst in us sometimes. For what it’s worth, I understand and forgive you. 😊❤️
Dispensation s is a myth? It is simply an orderly and well thought out division of God’s dealing with the human race… You cannot see in Scripture a millennial reign of Christ before the final judgement? That is your call – i have no problem with it
Is globalism dangerous? I say yes, you say no.. So?
And oh yes, God did use this nation to disseminate the Gospel to the four corners of the globe, as He did some Europeans also…
Never heard FDR labeled anti-christ… There’s always folk who speculate, i suppose… When Hitler looked to e taking over te world, there were some who wondered… Lutes and Evangelicals…. Wouldn’t be surprised if Simple Amee MacPherson preached it…
Somehow this reminds me of my sister-in-law… My almost 90 year old great aunt gave us a lovely king size patchwork quilt that she’d stitched for us. My SIL looked at it and just said, “She missed some stitches.”
I suspect as God looks on us as we do our best to sort things out, He is thinking you dropped a stitch …. .or two….😇
Mike E.,
I agree with JoelG. It’s a real blessing to have you here!
Em,
So now you’re saying the Almighty thinks I’ve dropped a “stitch or two” if
I don’t see it your way?
I didn’t think so. 🙂
Em,
Maybe Trump is God’s judgement on America for starters and to bring a reproach upon the American Church.
As for what the President can do, maybe if he actually acts Presidential for starters. You know shows leadership, rather than acting like a spoiled child having a tantrum. Maybe you should do some digging and take a look at the Oval Speech Bush 41 gave during the Rodney King Riots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD_3NOIEk-0
Regardless if one agrees with Bush 41 and his policies or not, this is how a POTUS is supposed to act. Like an adult, not a petty little brat or a pro wrestler masquerading as commander-in-chief where we are all living Trump’s keyfabe world.
I’m Sorry, Mike E.
You didn’t say the word “hatred.”
I was trying…
Please consider this an apology for everything misunderstood.
I’m not an apologist for Trump, but I am opposed to division. But division certainly has its place.
Carry on.
bob1, i thought i said that God, as He watches us (He does), often thinks, “you (all of us) dropped a stitch.”. Thankfully His grace is greater by far than my SIL
Pity sakes, Lad…. Just because we don’t think alike ( for which, i suspect we’re both glad) should not be construed as looking down my nose at you… I suspect you are very competent…. 🙆
CM,as i understand, no leader is in place without God’s okay… Is Trump a curse on the land? Don’t think so, but it certainly does appear that God has taken His hand of blessing and protectionn away
Thanks everyone for being so gracious. jtk..It’s all good brother. Pretty sure I misunderstood. Regardless, we’re brothers in Christ. Hopefully we can get to know each other better. 😎
Em,
I am not disputing that. God sets ups kings and rulers as per Scripture (all of them).
.
God gives those bad leaders for various reasons (hence my take on Trump).
But the standard canard the rabid Evangelical supporters and defenders of Trump use is “God put Trump as POTUS”. But they DO not use as a statement of fact, but as a means of bullying and silencing criticism, implying that somehow if one defies or disagrees with Trump, you are against God (especially against those Godless Dems or Libs or Never Trumpers, etc.). This is more prevalent than you think.
I respond with the statement that per Scriptures, God sets up all rulers (and that would include Obama and Pelosi), to which I say to those trying to play this God card, “Was your opposition to them defying God?” I also point out that because Scriptures say all rulers, they can’t play this card as it makes Trump nothing unique or special in this regard.
And yes, I do find enjoyment as they sputter and can’t really respond as I take away the Court Evangelical talking point they have been parroting as a means of bullying.
“I am not disputing that. God sets ups kings and rulers as per Scripture (all of them).”
Does the Almighty really set up all Princes and Potentates in a linearized and pre-determined fashion, or does he just spin the roulette wheel and see what choices we humans will make?
Well Muff,
The fact that you mention linearized indicates that your stuck in the past present future, cause and effect nature in this universe.
Let me explain this further:
1) Time (past, present, and future, aka the arrow of time) and Space is a product of this universe.
2) God created the universe per Scriptures. Ergo, the constraints of the universe do not apply to the one who created it.
3) So why we may see it a linearized fashion, cause and effect, that is because of the fact we are in the constraint conditions.
If anyone is a Star Trek fan this really crude analogy may help. The wormhole aliens (aka prophets of Bajor) in ST: Deep Space Nine are outside of space-time. So when Sisko and others talk about the “Past” or “Present”, those concepts are foreign to them, even though Sisko and others those are inherently obvious. In God’s case, He obviously understands the constraints and conditions in the universe, but you get the idea.
Another example is when Carl Sagan used the analogy of a being in a 2 dimensional universe and how it relates to a 3 dimensional universe to explain space-time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7K5KjOdLD8
We are that 2 dimensional being trying to understand something outside its 2 dimensional universe.