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116 Responses

  1. Seems to me there are times in the course of history when division is called for. I don’t know yet if this is such a time. For me, Trump comes close. I would not now sever an important relationship over support for Trump but that is definitely on the table if some of what I fear begins to come to pass.

    I understand your initial reaction is what I am saying. I would lose sleep at night if someone close to me actively supported him.

  2. Michael says:


    It hasn’t been easy… 🙂

    For me it’s a matter of putting our relationship with Christ and our personal relationship first…and knowing that I’ll be able to say “I told you so” when the carnage begins…

  3. Xenia says:

    We have a close friend who is for Trump. We just don’t talk about it.

    I know that our friend is a good and decent person who has been temporarily beguiled. He’ll get over it, eventually. We still love him.

  4. Xenia says:

    If this friend began to badger us about voting for Trump and says he’ll hold us responsible for various horrors if Trump doesn’t win because we chose to follow our consciences and not vote for him, the friendship will have to be put on hold until for a while. I won’t put up with that.

  5. Michael says:

    I wouldn’t put up with that either .
    We’ve agreed to simply not discuss the matter unless necessary.

  6. Jean says:


    Now you have a great idea for a birthday meal: Trump Steak and Trump Wine. It’s the Art of the Meal.

  7. Kevin H says:

    Make my own application? – You beat me to my article again this week! Well, not really, but in some aspects I’m going to be speaking to division, even political division in a general sense.

  8. Em again says:

    Trump appeals because he’s outside the toxic beltway and will fight back against those who insult our intelligence with syrupy lies … kind of like Michael in that regard … but, sadly, anyone, good, bad or in between, who goes against the established political system (that’s left and right folks) will be elected to office in Washington … or, if by a fluke of the failure of corruption and chicanery to prevail, will find it possible to effect anything of importance to reform what is entrenched now…
    i think Michael’s gut reaction to Trump mirrors my reaction to Hillary C. … it’s hard to tell where blind ambition ends and stupidity picks up…
    this election year gives far more food for thought than any others in my lifetime… probably the last man of the people was Ike Eisenhower and back then i was a stupid, sophomoric kid, who thought Adlai Stevenson was just … intellectually wonderful – as if that made a good Commander in Chief

  9. Michael,

    You must always separate the sin from the sinner 🙂

    Make your own application…….

  10. Em again says:

    “but, sadly, anyone, good, bad or in between, who goes against the established political system (that’s left and right folks) will be elected to office in Washington … or, if by a fluke of the failure of corruption and chicanery to prevail, will find it possible to effect anything of importance to reform what is entrenched now…”

    lol, apologies if anyone, tried to wade through that sentence… i left out an important ‘not’

  11. Alan says:

    I’m a bit taken aback at this post. Partly because the question would never even be posed “could you lose a friendship over someone who supports HC?”

    Trump says some crass things and people come unglued. Do you really think that every POTUS in our lifetime doesn’t say totally crass things behind closed doors?

    My belief is that HC and DT are both lousy candidates and that’s why for the third election in a row, I won’t be voting for someone from either major party. The point of my comment is that I don’t get why DT is spawn of satan, while HC is just another normal candidate? Really?? Spend five minutes taking a look at her track record.

    I’m not going to lose any friendships with people who vote for DT, just as I’m not going to lose any friendships with folks who vote for HC.

    The sooner that Christians of all political stripes realize that our kingdom is not of this world, and that who wins really doesn’t matter, the better off we’ll be.

  12. Babylon's Dread says:

    Very important,

    The Trump rally in Albuquerque threatened to split my church.
    It will have the effect of dividing some friends.

    This election is the worst… Not ever… but of my lifetime.

    The election of 1860 killed almost 700k people so this is not that…

    But this election will indeed divide people who will never reconcile

  13. Michael says:


    I didn’t write a word advocating for Clinton.

    Long time readers know that I have a passion for immigration reform and have spent years studying border issues.

    Trumps policies, (if enacted) will result in my participation in civil disobedience and I anticipate violence throughout the country.

    That’s the dark cloud that hovers over this article…as Warren said, there may come a time when division is necessary for the sake of faith and conscience.

  14. Michael says:


    This election could result in some high casualty numbers as well…you can’t try to arrest 15 million people without incident.

  15. Xenia says:

    Alan, I can’t stand Hillary, either. She’s an enemy of Eastern Orthodoxy, for starters. She told the blasphemous rock group P’y Riot that she admired them for desecrating Christ the Savior Cathedral. So she’s an anti-Christ for sure.

  16. Xenia says:

    Here’s what I wrote a few weeks ago and this explains why I am more concerned about Trump as president than Hillary. Hillary is in favor of things that I believe are sinful, such as abortion and the homosexual agenda. She will continue Obama’s policy of encouraging these sins. But I have a conscience and no one is forcing me to have an abortion or marry a woman. Her foreign policy- who knows. But Trump is a ticking time bomb with no self control and he can offend some tin-pot dictator half-way around the world and set off a chain of events that can lead to WW3. As I said, this goes way beyond me and my conscience.

    A Hillary win is more drip drip drip into the morass of liberalism.
    A Trump win can be a nuclear holocaust.

    Trump has the emotional make-up of a spoiled two year old. If he wins, there will be mayhem.

  17. Xenia says:

    And I am also willing to go to jail rather than help implement some of Trump’s more bizarre ideas.

  18. Michael says:

    I’ll have to put up a page asking for bail donations for Xenia and me… 🙂

  19. Em again says:

    one thing should not escape our scrutiny – Trump’s bombast, i.e., deportation of the undocumented isn’t going to happen – even if he wanted to do so, he couldn’t

    “A Hillary win is more drip drip drip into the morass of liberalism.” … well described
    if Trump is indeed and emotional, spoiled brat, pray that God doesn’t see us as needing such a spanking…

    i just came off of reading the link to Roger Olson’s piece on linkathon ‘ignored forms of oppression’ … our own house needs tending to …

  20. Babylon's Dread says:

    I have been asking my Trump supporting friends if they really expect to see to the deportation of millions, I thought it was maybe 11, Michael says 15 million.

    Frankly this election could ultimately be the worst.

    Our nation is, I think, irretrievably divided.

    There will be blood. I truly expect it.

  21. Michael says:

    “Trump’s bombast, i.e., deportation of the undocumented isn’t going to happen – even if he wanted to do so, he couldn’t.”

    This makes me crazy, my GF says the same thing.

    So people are voting for someone believing that the candidate will not do as promised?

    He is being elected on this issue…and if he is thwarted in his wickedness all hell will break loose among those who thought we were going to have orderly ethnic cleansing.

    They will try to accomplish it on their own.

  22. Em again says:

    Xenia and Michael with a go fund me web-site … lol

    a new kind of underground r.r? –

    what troubles me is not that the solid citizen Latinos are in jeopardy – i don’t think that they are – dunno, but i don’t think so – what troubles me is the professional civil disobedience movement that seems to exploit and distort what’s going on right now

    we are so far from needing to throw rocks and molotov cocktails at our law enforcement people – what is this all about? nothing good

  23. Michael says:


    We are God’s ambassadors.
    What can and should we do to prevent the bloodshed and bring some semblance of unity?

  24. Xenia says:

    My Bernie supporter friends, mostly harmless little fuzzballs, say the same thing about his socialism. If he’s elected, it will never happen in this country.

  25. Alan says:

    Michael, thank you for comment #13. I didn’t know that about you. Thanks for informing me. I must say though re your comment 14…Trump is a blowhard. Tons of plain rhetoric. Mass arresting of people here illegally??? He’ll never do that, not a chance.

    Xenia, I totally disagree with you about foreign policy. HC is fully in the bag for the Washington / Pentagon / defense industry establishment. She will continue with the Bush / Obama failed idea of American going all over the world, basically bullying the rest of the world. This is flat our horrible FP and it creates enemies of the US every single day. A couple months back, Trump was asked about Putin and said…gasp…that he’d like to sit down and talk with him (the horror!!). Naturally the press came unglued over the idea (they’re the mouthpiece for the US govt) as they seem to love the Bush / Obama plan of putting warships in the Baltic Sea for no other reason than to provoke the Russians. As I said to Michael, Trump loves to talk a big game and say crass things. But we have to remember, every POTUS in my lifetime has governed much differently than what they said on the campaign trail. This is a point that I wish people would get. Stop listening to what these folks say and instead, pay attention instead to what they do.

    Go to Google and find an article from the Boston Globe entitled “vote all you want. the secret govt won’t change.” This article is why I don’t fear DT, or HC for that matter. Note that this article is from the Boston Globe. It’s not some crazy theory from Alex Jones. It basically makes the point that the govt is on auto pilot and when someone comes in as a new Pres, they really aren’t able to implement much of anything they desire to.

  26. Michael says:


    My best guess is that there are closer to 20 million undocumented people in the country,though the number has fallen substantially in the last few years.

    The Mexican migration has been in reverse since 2012…

  27. Xenia says:

    Putin is sitting over there in the Kremlin, grinning like a lizard and flattering Trump. He hopes Trump win but not for reasons that would benefit America.

  28. Michael says:

    People need to get a clue here.
    This man is running a grass roots, populist campaign based on the promise of deporting millions.

    If he is prevented from doing so those people will revolt in such a way as has not been seen since the Civil War.

    The old rules do not apply…and people this angry don’t just shrug their shoulders and quit.

  29. Babylon's Dread says:


    I am perplexed exceedingly …

    I do not know how to vote, who to support, how to respond. I am literally scouring my mind and heart daily to find a way forward. For the first time I find the conspiratorial eschatologies to be mildly even moderately coherent.

    Trump’s rhetoric is antichristian and should raise alarms. It raises support. Trump stewards words like a drunk stewards beer. He sloshes. His words absolutely matter but something has us mesmerized.

    When Obama was elected I thought we were a nation full of confusion
    This election I think we are a nation in chaos.

    We indeed need wise voices.
    We desperately need heaven’s wisdom.

  30. Em again says:

    all right folks, admittedly i live up here in the mountains away from reality, but IMV, if there is bloodshed to come, it will be because of outside agitators exploiting the fearful…
    it won’t be anything like the north v the south of 1860… with a good outcome…

    when Trump says “deport them all,” we can say that’s nuts and just who are “them” anyway?
    when Hillary says, “beware the right-wingers want “us” hard working Americans to suffer…” we can say that’s nuts and just what you think that you are “us” anyway?

    maybe we can start the Christian common sense and wisdom party? hmmm

    so, what can we do to prevent bloodshed? there must be something…

  31. Alan says:

    It’s funny to me (well, actually it angers me) to witness an emerging trend. Many on the left have been skewering Christians for being politically conservative. But now it’s fine for the Christian left to do the same things.

    Michael, seriously?? Arrested??? I literally laughed out loud. Come in off the ledge please and tone down the rhetoric. The idea that under a Pres Trump, you’d be arrested for something is totally out of left field. In fact, it’s beyond whatever lies beyond left field.

    Back to my first paragraph. The Christian right was vilified for their concerns about President Obama. Many unkind things were said about that group over their concerns. But now, many of the same people that did the vilifying, are saying the exact same things about Trump. A liberal friend of mine said to me in 2008, “I survived Bush, you’ll survive Obama.” Well, we’ve almost survived Obama, and you’ll survive Trump, should he even win, which I still think is HIGHLY unlikely.

  32. Michael says:


    It may be humorous to you…it’s something we’ve had to discuss already as a family.

    When they come for my neighbor they will have to go though us first…and that usually gets you arrested or shot.

  33. Alan says:

    Michael, you need to get a clue (28). Populist??? LOL, stop listening to the media and use some common sense.

    He’s being advised by Rudy Guliani and Chris Christie for goodness sake. Those guys are total establishment. Like every candidate before him, he said things to win the nomination that he has no desire to pursue.

    Look, the worse scenario is that he gets elected, and then continues the policies of Bush / Obama. That’s awful, for sure, but he’s not going to arrest millions of people.

  34. Michael says:


    I can’t support or vote for either.
    What I can do is teach on the kingdom of God and our responsibilities in it.

    I have to stand for the oppressed, but I don’t have to vote to do that.

  35. Michael says:


    With all due respect, the uprising is tied to his promise to deport.

    If he fails to do so, there will be yet another uprising…

  36. Xenia says:

    I have in-laws who are probably undocumented. I will hide them in our spare room before I will let them be forced away from their families. If whatever organization Trump establishes to drag people back to Mexico shows up at the front door, I am not turning them in.

  37. Papias says:

    I don’t believe the lie that if Trump isn’t elected that there will be bloodshed .. .revolt…mass deportations. Nor do I believe that Trump would “make Murica’ great again”.

    I also don’t believe that if HC is elected that anything would change, up or down.

    “Campaign promises are, by long democratic tradition, the least binding form of human commitment.” Antonin Scalia, Supreme Court Justice.

  38. Xenia says:

    Arresting millions of people….

    This is the idea that America will always remain a pleasant country where these things can never happen. Why would we assume this? Listen, I am a history major. The situation in a country can change in the twinkling of an eye.

  39. Michael says:


    I might make your #38 the lead post for a year or eight…

  40. Em again says:

    i am puzzled by the statement that Trump’s promise to deport the undocumented is what will get him elected … no one that i know – don’t know very many to begin with – but no one that i know who thinks Trump would be a good change is counting on the deportation promise-so-called … that said
    once the political machine really cuts loose Trump’s track record will trump his resume and keep him out of the White House anyway … that political machine is what most of Trump’s backers want to see broken – but it won’t happen – bureaucracies and bankers and taxers are in charge of this nation’s future now – all the politicians are impotents with empty words

  41. Xenia says:

    Remember, most towns, big and small, are now equipped with armored vehicles (or urban assault vehicles, as I call them, but is not what they really are called, I don’t think.)

  42. Alan says:

    Xenia, I fully agree with #38, as I often tell people that myself.

    I just find it aggravating that when Christians expressed concerns over Obama, they were shouted down as being fruits and nuts. Now, the same people that shouted them down are the ones freaking out….and over a guy who likely won’t come close to winning. I guess what’s good for the goose isn’t always good for the gander.

    Look, I too ponder the thought that someday, I will be arrested in this country for holding to the Christian ideals I strongly believe in. But, it’s for a different reason that yours Michael. I’d share the reason, but then, I’d be called a right wing Christian doomsdayer.

    Michael, I’d appreciate a response to what I said. Why is it wrong for right wing Christians to be concerned over one POTUS, but it’s fine for you to be concerned over another POTUS?

  43. Papias says:

    People said the same thing about Barack Obama for the last 8 years….its all about fear.

    The Left wants you to fear Trump. The Right wants you to fear HC.

    “Fear will come alive fear will go, through the darkness and the woes…
    Fear is only what you feel… false evidence appearing real..”

  44. Alan says:

    Xenia, 41, Yes, I’ve been trying to make people aware of that. The dept of HS has also amassed billions of rounds of ammunition. Who are they gearing up to fight?

    I just don’t agree with M that they’re gearing up for some grand right wing cause. Look, since the 1980s at least, the left and the right have benefited from illegal immigration. Why would either of them stop the game now? That just doesn’t make a lick of sense to me.

  45. Alan says:

    Papias, thank you, the voice of reason here.

  46. Michael says:


    I’m not concerned over “another POTUS”.
    I’m concerned about hundreds of thousands of people being ripped from their families.
    I’m worried about local communities, churches, and schools being thrown into chaos and conflict.
    I could give a rats ass about the left or the right…my concern is over real people and real children.

  47. Em again says:

    #38-“…the idea that America will always remain a pleasant country where these things can never happen…” that is a nice idea, but with due respect to our history professor

    i think that the sheer impossibility of the logistics is why most of us think that such a grand scale of round-up and deportations will not happen… first of all the countries we’d try to “send them back to” would not let them debark from the planes… so, we’d have to conquer Central America to pull this off

    what could happen and may have already happened is the death of the Republic… i don’t think a flat out democracy is even possible here, is it? what is the term for the government we have now?

  48. Michael says:


    Actually you’re seeing democracy in it’s purest form…there hasn’t been a more democratic election in my memory.

  49. Xenia says:

    Alan, I don’t discount all that you have written because I think your scenario is also possible. As I said, not a Hillary fan!

  50. Xenia says:

    Em, the histories of Russia and Germany show that it is very possible to “get rid” of huge sections of the population. And that was before the technology we have today with surveillance cameras on every corner and in every store and diner.

  51. Xenia says:

    Alan, I think we Christians have been so riled up for so long expecting doom to come from the hands of the liberals that it confounds us to think maybe it will be coming from the right wing.

  52. Michael says:


    I’m a one issue guy…I don’t have the time or the intelligence to understand all the issues that beset us.
    Outside of the bible and church history I’ve devoted the last few years to the study of only one thing,that being the border and all the issues surrounding it.
    There are others who can speak to military or economic issues or partisan politics…I am too ignorant to even try.

  53. Michael says:

    Actually, I’m also well versed in hockey and Minnesota Vikings football… 🙂

  54. London says:

    My cousin from Texas isn’t speaking to me any longer because I’m not a Trump supporter. LOL

  55. London says:

    I’m not as concerned about Trump himself getting rid of people as I am about those who he’s influenced. He’s unleashed an attitude that it’s ok to hate others because of their opinions, gender, religion etc and people now think its ok to act on that hatred. That somehow they’d be doing their patriotic duty to cleans the country of “the other”.
    Like Xenia said, Russia, Germany, Ukraine etc have a history of people “disappearing”. It happened in Ukraine in the last three years, it’s not ancient history. It’s now. And it isn’t impossible for it to happen here.

  56. Xenia says:

    Argentina, too.

  57. Michael says:

    It’s been happening in Mexico for years as well…
    Well said on the rest as well, London.

  58. Michael says:

    I should hasten to add (I’ve been instructed to hasten to add) that the Significant One doesn’t support the immigration policies,but believes that Trump will secure the Supreme Court and protect the Second Amendment and oppose partial birth abortion.

    She’s packing iron, so I need to make this clear… 🙂

  59. Steve Wright says:

    based on the promise of deporting millions.
    The idea that deportation is the issue that got Trump the Republican nomination is belied by the facts on the ground. And not just anecdotal evidence on internet blogs (of which there is plenty)…but in the simple process of the exit polls which most states conduct as part of the primary process. Why voters actually voted for whom they voted on the day they voted.

    Immigration is typically a distant 4th place of the list of key issues for Trump voters. Behind the economy/jobs, behind government spending, behind terrorism (I confirmed what I remember from watching the election returns every state primary night by looking at Florida, Texas, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Indiana and this is true for all of those states – as it has been consistently this election season for every state. Maybe you might find a state where it nudges into a tie for 3rd with terrorism but other areas reign supreme)

    Sure, some guy who says immigration is his #1 concern is likely voting Trump.

    But those guys are a distinct minority of the total GOP primary voter, as well as Trump voter within the primary process. They are not why he has won the nomination.

    (By the way, not only do the pro-Trump sites not speak about deportation, but the anti-Trump conservative, Republican, right-leaning sites speak critically of his policy as being defacto amnesty if it were enacted – (touchback amnety).

    I don’t want to let the facts get in the way of a good meme…but people who actually follow Republican politics, Republican media and bloggers, and of course Republican voters might be a better source for what is going on in the Republican party…and why.

    Carry on.

  60. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Totally laughable the hysteria here. You all need a course in political science. The fulltime career government workers both run DC policy and operations. The president can’t even control the Fed. Heck they can’t get the TSA in line.

    I would like to know what is being discussed in your churches if this political campaign is “tearing apart your church”.
    Try sticking to a liturgy and readings of the day and just let people make up their own political minds.

  61. Ms. ODM says:

    It was good you saw that in a text and that she didn’t show up at your door so dressed – then there would be a Fund-Me link for your bail. I was shocked to see whom you voted for. My respect for you plummeted when I saw that. It kept me away from PP for a week.

  62. Michael says:


    Your arrogance is overwhelming.
    What you have stated is your opinion based on the data you choose to look at.
    Mine is based on the data I’ve chosen to look at.

    Your opinion and your data may or may not be as good as mine…but I believe I can make a case for mine as well.

  63. Michael says:

    Ms. ODM,

    That’s nuts.

    I’m a Democrat and voted in the Democratic primary for the best candidate we have.

    His immigration policy looks like I wrote it personally and he understands the plight of VA nurses and veterans care.

    I don’t agree with his whole platform, but there was something I could affirm.

    You didn’t ask why, but you should have.

    I write what I believe and I write from my heart…and if that keeps you or anyone else away, I could care less.

  64. Xenia says:

    MLD, it’s not being discussed at my church although since I am friends with most of our members, I do know how they view the candidates. My church teaches we should love our enemies, welcome the stranger, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and encourage righteousness in the land. so that is the foundation upon which we pick our candidates.

    For some, this means the Dems, for some, the Repubs.

  65. Jean says:

    If targeting illegal immigrants was not a primary Trump voter priority, then why is that Trump’s lead stump speech issue? Are you saying Trump doesn’t know his voters?

  66. once a cc guru says:

    Wish I was at that Trump Rally with your better half…

    Go Trump!

  67. Xenia says:

    Why does Trump rile up the crowds by yelling out

    What are we gonna build”

    (Crowd) A wall!!!

    Who’s gonna pay for it?

    (Crowd) Mexxxicccoooo!!!!

  68. Michael says:

    Steve is just acting in his self appointed office of being the anti-PhxP… we’ve always had one and probably always will.

    Carry on…

  69. once a cc guru says:

    What brings one man division brings another man unity…

    Trump has brought Steve, myself and many others together for a fantastic ride on the Trump Train! “People get ready, there’s a train a-coming”…

  70. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    My wife and I don’t agree on candidates and we discuss it often. We just think the other is a political imbicile but it does affect our relationship at all.
    And I tell her that I am voting for Hillary just to shut up the feminists who have bitched for the past 40 yrs that I am a chauvinist pig for voting for men. Her election equals no harm no foul.

  71. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve is not anti PP. He just has a different view – but a different view should not bring hostiliy.

    Michael – I don’t get wht seeing your lady in a Trump T Shirt would bring any reaction other than a good laugh.

  72. Michael says:


    Steve is anti PhxP if you define that as being me.
    This isn’t exactly a well kept secret.

    As to my reaction to the shirt… my private circle knows how committed I am to certain things that I rarely post here. It wasn’t a shock, but as I wrote, I reacted very badly .

  73. Em again says:

    #60-yes, what MLD is saying…

    and we do have two separate “round-ups” being discussed here… could there be an attempt to round up and exterminate Christians AND aliens? hmmm… a new world Kristallnacht? … even that sounds logistically implausible … we have a little more geography to cover than did Germany in the 1930s…
    could we see a Stalin purge? why bother … we conservatives are being systematically and thoroughly marginalized right now… that could reach the point where, in order to stabilize the nation, it would be necessary to kill all dissenters, i guess… but who we elect isn’t going to have any impact on that… oh well, to live is Christ and die is gain; we’d better internalize that fact… sigh – it’s a mean old world

    but to talk deportation of all the undocumented, i’d say just not possible to pull off…

    IMNSHO – we do have a serious problem that could erupt in any one of a number of directions, however… that is unemployment… it looks like the looming solution to that problem is more people on the government payroll – i believe Hillary and Bernie are in agreement on that one… a WPA that might fix some potholes and creaking bridges would be okay

  74. Em again says:

    #67- i don’t take those rally things seriously, they are orchestrated, too – led by people planted in the crowds, like cheerleaders at a high school football game

    there may be a fence from the Gulf to Baja, but it won’t be a wall … that is impossible – unless, of course, those of us who are rounded up are put into forced labor :smile;

  75. Michael says:


    Can you tell me how conservatives are being marginalized when they control the Congress, and have the top rated media in the country?

    I have seen no rally for rounding up Christians…and walls do keep people in as effectively as they keep people out…

  76. Jean says:

    “IMNSHO – we do have a serious problem that could erupt in any one of a number of directions, however… that is unemployment…”

    Let’s look at that assertion, which is a conservative assertion.

    The unemployment rate at the end of April was I believe 5%. That historically has been considered full employment.

    Let’s say, there are still many Americans looking for work. Okay, what is Trump proposing:

    Throw the illegals out. Now, who here thinks the unemployed Americans will line up to take the jobs that the Mexicans will leave behind? Agriculture; meat packing; residential landscaping, etc.?

    Who in the conservative camp is being honest with their supporters that it’s going to take a world class education to compete in a world economy? Besides not being honest with the electorate, what are their proposals?

    IMO the current administration has done an amazing job, in the face of constant intransigence by the GOP to bring the economy back from the worst recession since the Great Depression. And, there are millions of people who are working today, buying homes, supporting families, etc. because of the dedication of the President.

  77. Michael says:

    I will disagree with brother Jean on this one…
    At least here, the unemployment rate looks better, but the reality is that there is a huge,uncounted, underclass that has just given up.
    I see people on the streets now who were great employees of mine in various places…I think that there is an unspoken crisis that nobody is addressing.

  78. Jean says:

    There very well may be significant differences between your area in the Pacific Northwest and here in the Midwest. Point taken.

    When Trump talks about jobs, he concentrates on two areas: (1) bringing jobs back and (2) not letting companies move jobs out of the country. But he never says how that would work, except to tax imports of the companies that move jobs.

    But, here’s the problem, if the company doesn’t move to a lower labor cost country and if the America workers are not willing to reduce their wages to be competitive with, say, Mexico, China, Vietnam, etc., then the company will fail and all the workers will lose their jobs anyway.

    Alternatively, Trump could start a trade war by placing tariffs on foreign goods to get their prices up to the American company’s prices which has the higher American labor. But then American pay a lot more for stuff and our exporting companies are screwed by the trade war.

    But Trump acts like he’s the only guy who understand trade and can somehow defy how trade works.

  79. everstudy says:

    I’m not sure this is quite the place for my comment, but here goes.
    I live in north Orange County, an area that over the past 20 years has changed due to illegal aliens settling here. The neighborhood my wife grew up in just a mile from where we live now, one doesn’t venture into anymore because of the gangs. The high school that my son is assigned is practically overrun (that’s why he’s not there). We used to have three supermarkets nearby, now two are Spanish speaking.
    I understand changing demographics. I watched that happen when I lived in Whittier, and we had 3rd or 4th generation Hispanics moving up from Montebello and Pico Rivera and I’m watching it happen closer to home now as Koreans are moving into what were majority Hispanic neighborhoods, so I have no problem with the nature of neighborhoods changing.
    I also understand why people would venture here, and break the law to settle here. I’m sympathetic to their reasons. I get the desire to, as Xenia said, “love our enemies, welcome the stranger, feed the hungry, clothe the naked.”

    What I don’t get is how we say we want to “encourage righteousness in the land” while enabling and encouraging the breaking of laws.

    Let me give an hypothetical, if I may.
    Joe is a hard worker, but doesn’t make enough money to save for his daughter’s college. He decides to steal, just a little, not enough to be noticed, from his employer each week, dutifully saving for his daughter’s future. Over the course of several years, he’s saved $50,000. Just as his daughter is ready to go off to college, he’s found out by his employer. He’s changed, convicted, jailed and his stolen assets are seized. Now, not only is he in jail, but his daughter can no longer afford college and cannot go.
    The argument could be made, if we’re consistent in our application of laws, that since he’s a hard worker, and was only stealing for the betterment of his child, he should get a pass, and his daughter should be able to use the money for her education.

    Immigration law seems to be one of the laws that we seem to want to let slide because we see the urgent need that people have, but that causes a problem when we desire to stay consistent with the law.

    I know there are no easy answers for this issue, I sure as heck don’t have any. But how do we say we’re for justice is we unfairly apply the law? Or apply the law inconsistently? Or not at all? Where is the justice for those that do it right (like several people I work with)?

    I don’t know, I get dizzy just thinking about it.

    As for the candidates, I won’t vote for Clinton (just like I wouldn’t have voted for another Bush), I won’t vote of Sanders because I don’t think he understands the inherent tyranny in his positions, and I just can’t get behind Trump. But what I did see at the Anaheim and the San Diego rallies were his opposition protesting and waving lots of Mexican flags and signs that read “Make America Mexico Again”. That’s the kind of thing that gets a lot of people upset. Including the Mexican-Americans I work with.

    I’ll probably vote for the rock in my yard.

    Hopefully I haven’t offended too many and you read this with grace.

  80. Michael says:


    That was well written and appreciated.

    One of the main arguments when we deal with immigration is the one you raise about the “rule of law”.

    On the surface it is an argument with more than a little merit.

    The problem I have with it is this.

    The law has always been unequally applied by this country, depending on our economic needs.
    We have twisted the rule of law as much as the ones who have snuck over.

    The second thing I would say is that the impact of our laws on Mexico created much of this migration in the first place as I’ve detailed in other articles.

    Having said that, you still are making valid points with valid concerns…that is why I am for intelligent immigration reform, not simply open borders.

    Well done, old friend.

  81. Michael says:

    I’m supposed to inform everyone that gf mentioned in this article agrees with Everstudy’s take on immigration.
    I have fulfilled my duties.

    This will teach me to write about things other than cats and Calvinists and make me long for the days of flip phones…

  82. Em again says:

    i don’t think that conservatives do control Congress – i’m pretty sure that it is big business that calls the shots or more properly works hand in glove with the above mention bureaucracies … we are all being played … the peoples of the whole world are being played and guess by whom?

    we’ll never have a physical wall, that is a red herring being held up for both sides to react to… why is that? dunno …
    we could feasibly have a link fence of sorts defining the separation of the two nations but a wall?

    just how it looks from up here in the mosquito laden mountains tonight 🙂

    #76-5% unemployment? they must all be clustered in the PNW then …
    + most folk who are regular wage earners, if not government workers or unionized, are finding themselves working short hours so that those full time employee benefits including health care ins. are not required – and what about all the college grads that got conned into going into huge debt and now find that their degree is a vanity plaque to hang on the wall… the professors find their retirements securely funded and the youngsters are in debt for the rest of their days

    we’ve got to quit labeling our problems as conservative or liberal or socialist – we have problems and all are rooted in the economy or so it seems from here

  83. Michael says:

    “we’ve got to quit labeling our problems as conservative or liberal or socialist – we have problems and all are rooted in the economy or so it seems from here”

    100% agreed…

  84. Kevin H says:

    You mean Miss Kitty has never shot you a text to clarify her positions when you’ve written about her? 🙂

  85. Cookie says:

    Michael you claim to have facts to dispute Steve,s assertions and support your own regarding the only reason Trump won the nomination is because of his immigration policy. Do you have access to secret poll results that no one else has? Steve cited data from every public poll conducted after the primaries. These are easily found in a simple Google search. I am unable to find any data to support the contention that folks will riot if the illegals aren’t deported. This false claim is right up there with the claim that the Calvary Chapel movement will disintegrate after Pastor Chucks death. Neither claim is based on facts that can be verified.

  86. Michael says:


    Both Steve and I draw conclusions from data we review.
    We come to different conclusions.
    I don’t claim to be speaking from Sinai, but I do stand by what I wrote.

    What I wrote about CC was that it would split..and I even told you how it would divide.
    The moving of the affiliate office to Philly wasn’t just a matter of convenience.

    Today, I’ve had more than enough controversy…I’ll deal with CC later.

  87. Michael says:


    A question for you.
    You consistently object to everything I write.
    Why do you even read here?
    I find this strange…

  88. Michael says:


    She hasn’t yet, but she does have her own iPad games… 🙂

  89. Reuben says:

    I’m a Marxist, and this whole thread makes me laugh.

  90. All the hot button issues that Trump proposes is just a smokescreen to block inquiry into the important issues. And I will bet that even someone as astute and knowledgeable about trump and the Republican party is without knowledge about the Trump plan for
    1.) The Federal Reserve and what his plan is for the flow of currency and interest rates.
    2.) Where our money supply and flow fits in with the World Bank
    3.) What is his specific tax plan.

    If anyone can point me to the Trump official position page, I would be happy to read it. (I have a feeling that nothing I listed rises to pitch fork level with the average Trump supporter.

  91. Eric says:

    Nearly half way through a 2-month election campaign in Australia and in my circles at least, not too many people are getting too excited or worried. The leaders’ debate on TV was regarded as a boring. The major parties are business as usual. Our version of Donald Trump recently decided not to run. The more anti-Christian elements are in minor parties who will win few seats. We have however been watching, originally with amusement and now with concern, to see how Trump fares.

  92. Reuben,
    “I’m a Marxist, and this whole thread makes me laugh.”

    You may wish to check out the Marxist view of the family in general and wives in particular. It may change your view of sociological choices. I was a sociology major in college and I remember. I doubt that it has changed over the past 45 years my proletariat brother. 😉

  93. Em at #82 is pretty close to having it right. “we are all being played … the peoples of the whole world are being played and guess by whom?”

    The difference is that we are not being played in a sense we don’t know it – we are being played and we love it.
    We were played when the government tried to save the housing market when we all know they should have let it go bust and have been done with it in a year instead of stretching the misery for 7 yrs.
    We were played into thinking that saving GM was a good thing, when they too should have been allowed to just bankrupt and liquidate.
    We were played when the government convinces us that single pay is best for the healthcare industry – when this is false as testified by the number of folks who flood into the US for their medical care while being on a 2 yr wait list in their single payer country.

    But the point is, we know and we actually love it. We love being played, that way we do not need to interact in the political system … I know I do.

  94. Babylon's Dread says:

    When the left feel threatened it is always the bigots and haters
    When the right feels threatened it is the persecutors

  95. brian says:

    Interesting article. From the exit polls, one could draw the conclusion that “immigration” is fourth on the lists of concern but if anyone thinks it did not play a big part in getting Trump the nomination they don’t get the dynamics of the hate. The hatred of immigrants is palpable and undocumented immigrants is borderline psychotic. Why Mr. Trump is liked by many is that he is harsh non pc and sling mud with the best and he says things many people think. For a tv celebrity, preacher, private billionaire or guy on the street its rude but not world changing. For the POTUS it could be devastating, starting first for our service people. Wars have started over egos in the past and this world is a tinderbox, with all the nationalism and magic thinking going on, there is a fundamental distrust of the mechanisms of Government that is good to some extent but can be dangerous if one is giving too much trust to the “outsiders” (who have actually been insiders for decades).

    If anyone does not see that this is a result of the constant fear mongering and day after day of emergency this and critical that played out by all sides for some pragmatic very short term goal then I think you have not been watching. This is a big ticket item for the evangelical machine in America it plays the fear card on a daily basis and has for over thirty years since I joined the corporation. The immigration card is just another one from the deck used to win the game. The problem is this is not a game, its real and real people get hurt. I dont have any real answers myself, I like Sanders in some ways but he cant win, he may have an impact on some of HC’s choices for cabinet or planks in the party platform. The republicans had a chance with some really good candidates but that evaporated real quick because the leadership did not gauge just how angry people are, even though they helped make people that angry for years of loathing Pres Obama.

    I saw David French is going to try a third party run, I actually like that guy, hate much of his politics but I like the person. I like HC is a way but there is just too much water under the bridge as well. I even like some of what Mr Trump says, he is right about the media in many ways they do lie and slant stories but he is overplaying this hand and I am afraid it may be who he is instead of just a marketing gimmick. Just my two cents, I think we cant look to our leaders but we need to come together as a community of Americans and do the hard work ourselves. I think we can and I have great hope in that. Which if course is pathetic and degenerate of me but it is what it is.

  96. Xenia says:

    Great post, Brian.

  97. JoelG says:

    We each only have one vote. Don’t waste too much energy and emotion on politics. Give your pet a squeeze, smell the roses, love your family and friends, love your neighbor (or try at least) and live a quiet life working with your hands knowing Jesus holds it all together.

  98. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    JoelG has it right.
    I made a couple of comments yesterday as I was driving across the desert – but I wanted to add just what JoelG said.

    This is why my family, and we are all over the board on politics between my parents, my brothers even my kids. We all tease even after a heated debate – “OK, but I am cancelling out your vote.”

    And then we move on – politics is like having a family divided over baseball teams (I am the only Dodgers fan) it does not matter – politics don’t matter (other than some state initiatives) – we just want our team to win (political team or baseball team) and then we go have a beer when both disappoint.

    Remember a couple of months ago, when the Super Bowls was the most important thing around? Who was the losing team? No one cares.

  99. JoelG says:

    I’ve heard you mention this before MLD: It helps to turn off the news, put down the newspaper, get off the internet (except the PhxP, off course 🙂 )

  100. Steve Wright says:

    I avoided this thread except for one comment. To add another for clarification – I am firmly in the neverhillary camp. Period. I have said many times that my convictions do not allow me to either sit out an election (any election, not just President), nor do they allow me to waste my vote on a write-in or sure loser 3rd party – all the more when the office involves Commander in Chief. Those are my personal convictions. I do not care if others have different convictions.

    If the Dems had nominated Joe Biden (and they still may) then the choice between him and Trump would be more searching. With Hillary, there is not a second of hesitation. Just today under oath her assistant explains her personal blackberry use and refusal to use standard government procedures and equipment was to avoid Freedom of Information Act.

    Trump may shoot his mouth off and start a war (per Xenia) but Hillary is ripe for being blackmailed and I believe has shown the lack of character that she would do anything and destroy anybody to achieve wealth and power. The nation is always 2nd when it comes to Hillary Clinton – we have a 25 year plus track record. Bill was a pretty good President who was a scoundrel personally. Hillary is a crook and as politically “evil” as they come.

    In my opinion of course….

    But being “for Trump” now that he has the nominee when it comes to November against Hillary is far different than being “for Trump” when there were 17 contenders in the primary race.

    (As far as Michael’s victim complex of my persecution – the truth is not flattering but it goes back (naturally) to the Alex days and MIchael’s lasting grudge of my comments though I sought (back in the day) to have either Jim or another PxP regular negotiate – my emails (facebook messages) with him are an open book as far as I am concerned and I am not ashamed of anything I wrote back in those days – or my attempts for reconciliation which were rebuffed. However, I will not continue to post here if the host thinks that is my purpose for being here and if he thinks my posts when he is wrong on the facts (CC or political) is just personal animosity)

    But wanted to clear up the Trump thing….so I have

  101. Michael says:


    No “victim complex”…just a recognition of the contempt we hold each other in.
    Let’s be honest about that.

    Despite that, I have not moderated you.

    I have no problem with you being the loyal opposition but leave the personal shots out.
    I will not have unnecessary strife here.

  102. Michael says:


    You and Joel might be right…but I think things have changed.
    Of course, I’m watching Ken Burns “The Civil War” so my vision might be clouded…

  103. Em ... again says:

    Pastor Steve on Hillary Clinton: ” I believe has shown the lack of character that she would do anything and destroy anybody to achieve wealth and power.”
    while people do mellow and maybe even change over a lifetime, this is what i have read in this woman’s demeanor for a couple decades now… i think it is much more about power than money… but money is power… this husband and wife think that they’re in the top echelon of the world’s movers and doers and they may be, but only as they serve their masters and that makes them very scary to me… could be wrong, but, to date, i’ve never been able to spot something that made me doubt this

    for the record, i learn from both Pastors, Steve and Michael… don’t know what that makes me 🙂

  104. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The Civil War is not really a good example of what can happen in bad elections. From the adoption of the Constitution to the beginning of the Civil war was only 71 yrs, and if you back out the years that the issue was coming to a head even less – we are talking just a year or two more than my lifetime that we were a nation, and a nation with poor communications.

    This is why the Balkan states split with such ease, they were together only 50 yrs and had no bonds.

    Today there is not chance of civil war or anything like it. By the next election cycle we will all wonder (but not admit) “who was it who ran against President ……..)

    With all the hoopla, voter turn out will still be somewhat low. I was actually excited the other day – I saw a Bernie Sanders commercial – we never, and I mean never see presidential campaign commercials here in California – it’s usually at wrapped up before our primaries.

  105. Alan says:


    I’m commenting now to apologize to you. I should have resisted commenting yesterday but did not. I apologize. I appreciate your blog and you allowing me to comment. Believe it or not, I learn things from you that challenge the way I’ve always thought about things. That’s good for me.

    As I said in a recent, previous post of yours, I believe that for the good of my own soul, I need to totally back away from politics and from the political realm. I’m not saying that everyone, or anyone else, need to do this, but I know for sure that I need to do this. Sadly, yesterday, I allowed myself to get drawn into a political discussion here on your blog and wrote things in haste that I probably shouldn’t have. My apologies to you and to your readers.

  106. Michael says:


    I think I can speak for the group…we all appreciate your heart and hope you remain here and speaking.

    I’m trying to think through what it means to disengage from politics completely…I find the idea correct in principal, but difficult in application.

    The reason I engage with the issues I do is because I think I have a biblical responsibility to do so…but want nothing to do with the partisan wars.

    Perhaps you can help us all think this through…and thank you for the kind words and thoughtful discourse.

  107. Jean says:

    There is a manner of communicating disagreement without coming off as arrogant. Comments like these:

    “I don’t want to let the facts get in the way of a good meme”


    “(I know…. throwing that pesky Scripture into the mix…..)”

    may add to your self-importance, but they aren’t constructive or respectful.

  108. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The only people who have any political power / authority / ‘a say in the matter’ (whatever you want to call it) are the party delegates.
    As an individual, you can blog all day every day and have absolutely no voice.

    If anyone wants to have input you must be a party delegate — but we don’t want that mess either.

    I know I sent this to Steve W a couple of months ago and I think I posted it here. This discussion involes ex presidents, supreme court justices, party leaders – you name it, the who’s who on the political scene from both sides (sitting and talking to each other – something you will not see today) – all of this is quite informative and relates so much today (from about 1984)

    I am a political junkie – but just of those politics that took place at least 30 yrs ago. I have 200 political biography and political commentary type books – but all of previous long past administrations – up to Reagan

  109. Mr Jesperson says:

    I appreciate the article, Michael. What does it look like to disengage from a partisan political rhetoric that is dividing the country? I think it starts by taking a few steps back to start looking at the forest instead of the individual tree that each partisan has got himself fully wrapped around. Hard to see the bigger issues when each of us is trying to champion some particular political viewpoint. In your case your issue is immigration. The bigger issue is that we are in the middle of a spiritual war. Their are forces behind the politics that are at work to sow fear and lust for power and to whip up both lawlessness and rage. For each of us, if the small tree that we are protecting leads us to a place like you did, where we want to reject people because they are wrapped around a completely different tree with a completely different viewpoint, then we have just been duped and are now part of the problem instead of the solution. If, by championing our personal views, it leads us to rhetoric where we tell others that they need to fear a candidate, then worldliness has taken over. If we get angry because we are not in control of the outcome of who gets elected, again worldliness and delusion have overtaken us. If we start talking about our rage and how we plan to go lawless if such and such happens in the future, then again we have become part of the problem.
    The reality is that God does have a perspective on what He thinks about our election. If we were all so close to Him that he could share it with us, then there would be no disagreement. We would all be in agreement with the Head of the Church: Jesus. The reason that we quarrel so much is because we do not have this relationship or viewpoint. Instead we have pride, thinking that are viewpoint is correct! When I see political debate like this, I see a bunch of small children arguing over things that they barely understand. If I start debating the issues, I become one of them. So I choose to stay out, and be humble as I realize that I do not have God’s view in my head. This is reality.
    Instead, I focus on what I do know. One is that God is control. He is still master of time, the creator of all, the king of all the Presidents over all time. He has an army of angels at his control to take care of things. He has told me to pray for my leaders. Jesus could have chosen to address the political climate of his day, but did not. Therefore, to be formed into His image means to let go of the tree I am holding onto and follow Him. Jesus said, blessed are the peacemakers, so I can choose not to enter the fray of political subjects that only lead clearly and plainly to quarreling. The Word tells us not to quarrel. I am not in control of who gets elected. To think that I am is just pride in action. So I choose peace. I will not sow fear in others by making myself into some false prophet about the future. Most of what we fear never happens. The studies show about 90 percent of what we worry about never comes to pass. And the Word tells us not to worry, but instead to pray.
    Pastors can do this. Mine does. Mine is the head of the local ministerial association. One of the reasons they keep drafting him is because he has a habit of avoiding quarreling. He comes off as loving. He does not hit other people over the head with his opinions demanding he gets his way. That is not love for love does not demand its own way. He listens. He walks away from political arguments. He chooses not to listen when some believer states something like “I hate my President” or parties candidate, or congressman, etc. We Christians say some of the stupidest things sometimes. Lets be conformed to what the Word says, instead of looking at it in the mirror and then simply walking away forgetting what following Jesus really looks like. It does not look like worldly politics, that is for sure.

  110. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Mr. J – “The reality is that God does have a perspective on what He thinks about our election. If we were all so close to Him that he could share it with us, then there would be no disagreement”


  111. Em ... again says:

    from Mr Jesperson’s #109: “I do know. One is that God is control. He is still master of time, the creator of all, the king of all the Presidents over all time. He has an army of angels at his control to take care of things. He has told me to pray for my leaders.”

    that also reminds me that He’s told us there’s a war going on… it is not all good – the end will be, but in time and space, here and now, it is not all good… we pray for leaders to bless and not curse us with their decisions and we also pray for our own wisdom and strength to keep on keeping on – to stand… and we pray for each other… just sayin

  112. bob1 says:

    I’m extremely happy to see people like Steve W. say why it’s impossible for them to vote for Hillary. Cracks me up. Anyone who thinks she’s just as dangerous/dumb/insulting as Donald Trump is lacking a moral compass, IMHO. You’ve let emotion shut down the rest of your brain.

    Obama Derangement Syndrome has morphed into Hillary Derangement Syndrome.

    I don’t believe for a moment that if it were Biden, it would make a wit’s difference to folks like Steve. That’s just sophistry.

    I predict a new Democratically-controlled Congress AND president in November!

    Keep going, Steve!

  113. Mr Jesperson says:

    A poll shows that the American public does not believe either of the major candidates. For instance: “only 15 percent said Clinton would be able to curb the power of Wall Street; 56 percent said she would not bother to try. Twenty-one percent said she’d try and fail.” and “on his call to deport millions of illegal immigrants, 19 percent of voters said he would be able to do it. Forty-five percent said he’d try and fail, and 29 percent said he wouldn’t try.”

  114. Alan says:

    Michael, thank you for #106.

    This is very difficult for me. I was die hard GOPer for a long time, but came to believe that they, as a whole, didn’t care for one thing that I care about. I came to believe that both parties only care about one thing: power. They care about getting elected and then getting re-elected.

    A liberal writer for my local newspaper wrote a series of articles about illegal immigrants that put human faces to this issue, and that rocked me to my core. I still believe that we have to have borders and that we can’t just open them up and have a free for all. But yet, there are also people who are here (illegally) who as human beings were made in the image of God. These people are suffering and need help. I came to believe that, for me at least, where I live, these people are “the least of these” that Christ was referring to in Matt 25. The bottom line for me is that immigration, like so many issues we face today is a multi-faceted, complex issue. Pop politics turns everything into a 10 second sound bite and give the impression that there are easy answers to all of the issues. That just isn’t true. I came to see that I was shouting out these same soundbites and all the while, didn’t have the first clue what I was talking about on most (all???) issues.

    I’ve always been struck by the fact that during Christ’s time on Earth, where He lived, the political situation was truly horrible. Yet, there’s no record that He cared much about it. Perhaps He did, but to my knowledge, there’s no record that He did. Thus, why should I care much about our political situation? It seems to me, and this is just my current thought, that I should simply love God, and love those I come into contact with each day, and forget all the rest of the nonsense.

    Just my $.02. That and $5 will get you a fancy drink at your local Starbucks.

  115. Michael says:


    Awesome post…thank you for being here and being transparent with us.

  116. Em ... again says:

    #114 – “The bottom line for me is that immigration, like so many issues we face today is a multi-faceted, complex issue. Pop politics turns everything into a 10 second sound bite and give the impression that there are easy answers to all of the issues. That just isn’t true. ” i have to agree with that observation

    there is something in man that is territorial – “my homeland,” “my country”…
    some have argued that the flood of immigrants can be likened to leaving the front door of your home unlocked and coming home to find strangers have entered and taken up residence… these “some” have a sense of being violated… the melting pot to them was for the purpose of molding into, not the diluting of, their “homeland.”

    my ancestors fled oppression to take up a dream in the New World, they were bigger and stronger than the indigenous people who’d migrated in centuries before… now we who are the descendants of that migration that began some 400 years ago are seeing the same scenario being played out from the view point of the Native American, perhaps… losing control of “our” land… maybe this is proving that argument, we don’t own anything here – we’re just custodians … for a time …?… and maybe we’re all just being played by some mysterious rebel force? … dunno 🙂

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