Romans 13:1 does refer to magistrates…but does that negate the principle that all authority is given by God?
Authority is a much more critical issue than most think, IMO…especially in trying to discern “truth” from “error”…”right teachers” from “false teachers”…etc.
The question of “what or who has the last say on what is truth and what is error…who or what is the judge…and who has wisdom from God and who doesn’t…and has the authority to express that wisdom”…is an important one, IMO.
“We” all have lots of theories and opinions and subjective interpretations…and we have Logos…and somewhere there is Wisdom…which is where Absolute Truth and Knowledge intersect.
Wisdom is also synonymous with “Discernment”…I think you can connect the dots on this one.
Packer’s article was a good read…and helpful.
Packer lays out three “authority groups”…basically Church as Authority, Scripture as Authority, or Individual as Authority.
Much of these problems would go away for us if we would develop a greater understanding of the sinfulness of sin, and contrast that with a greater understanding of God’s holiness and purity.
Maybe that is why Paul was the greatest Christian who ever lived. He had that understanding, thanks in part to his Pharisee background.
The Pharisees were NOT bad guys per se. They had a lot of respect among the people (contrast to the Sadducees) They were devoted to God’s law, but did not understand the sinfulness of sin – and so we have Jesus’ words on the Sermon on the Mount and elsewhere in the Gospels directed to them.
When we read Paul’s new understanding in Romans of what it means to covet for example (the one sin that was clearly of the heart, though Jesus explained murder, adultery and the rest also were of the heart too in God’s sight) – we get a glimpse of the radical transformation that took place in his life as he rested solely on the merits of Christ. Then his letters are filled with this teaching, Galatians, Romans, Philippians.
The Pharisees in the church today are not so much the finger-pointers at sin, as they are those who trust in themselves that they are righteous. That is where this conversation has arrived. Yes, the blood of Christ, but THEN – it is on us to “stay” righteous.
May we meditate on Phil 3:9 and remember these are the words of a former Pharisee.
We went to visit DMW and LGT yesterday. DMW makes the best….THE BEST pot roast…it was so tender and flavorful…it is the best pot roast I have ever had. ever!
LGT is so beautiful. The Light shines so very brightly through her…she is so full of joy. I really enjoyed sitting with her and talking with her.
DMW is an amazing man of God. The best part of our visit was listening to him share some of his memories of different events…seeing him laugh…he was laughing so hard…lol….seeing him smile…made me happy to see him so happy.
Buster was really moved by DMW and LGT…I don’t think he has ever looked at another man with such respect nor held them in such high esteem since his dad…
In agreement with MBs lunchtime post (#4)
and yet when AV says:
“Yes, the blood of Christ, but THEN – it is on us to “stay” righteous.”
Its not us nor depends upon us to “stay” righteous or holy,
Our sufficiency is not in ourselves, Our sufficiency is in Christ
He provides all we need to live a life of Godliness, Holiness and a walk pleasing in His sight, thouroughly equipped for every good work,, the works He has called us to and has planned for us from the foundations of the world to walk in,,,
God is for us!!! He supplies all our needs according to his riches in Christ Jesus,
and if we need to walk in Holiness, He supplies…
Had breakfast yesterday, and dinner the night before with E-brother. It was so fun. We did not hop from table to table like we did on our last visit but we still had fun. 😉
It is so hard to see that man from several years ago that was so upset with everyone in E-brother…he is so gentle and kind…and so funny.
It is so cool to see how far God has brought him…When I first came to PP, E could not leave his house…Remember how excited we all got the day E shared with us how he was able to drive to the beach….or when he was able to drive all the way to Oden’s church…
So glad to hear you had such a good trip,
and that DMW and LGT were all aglow! No doubt partly due to your visit!!
you have a gift,,, if intelligence was rated on a scale of compassion and understanding you would be considered a genius!
And if it were rated according to Story telling.. genius status to DMW
the light of the Lord… LGT
humor… that would go to Buster! ha
Was just learning about an interesting perspective,
the gifts and abilities of others in regarding to intelligence,
and I especially liked the quote:
“The question is not ‘How smart are you?’
but Rather ‘How are you smart?'”
It de-emphasizes the usually high regard of traditional IQ tests
in favor of highlighting the unique God gifted intelligences of various individuals
as people can be equally as smart in differing capacities.
Bob: I will answer with these words, translated into English, “it is written…”
********************
Here is what I think “it is written” means:
Luke 4:3-4 “And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.” 4 But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.’”
Jesus answers Satan with a Scripture verse that echoes His own belief. Jesus paraphrases the author of Deuteronomy 8:3 in order to support His point of view. The Scripture supports Jesus’ belief, but it is important to realize that it is not the Scripture that is the foundation of Jesus’ belief. He uses Scripture as a helpful tool to explain His belief only.
It is Jesus who is Truth. It is the proper interpretation of Scripture which reveals truth, not Scripture alone by itself.
Two people can read the same Scripture passage and come up with two different interpretations and sometimes their interpretations contradict each other. Either only one of them or else none of them will actually teach truth as a result of his/their own interpretation.
Because this Book of Scriptures cannot explain/interpret itself, it has no authority. It is a book with words written in it and it definitely did not write itself. So, why should we believe that the contents of this book have any value at all?
The Koran is also a book of scriptures and so many people claim that only this book is Allah’s/God’s Word. So, why do you believe the Bible to be true, but not the Koran? They are both books sitting on a bookshelf in a store. How do we choose the right book to buy if we desire to learn how to inherit eternal life?
Readers of the Bible and readers of the Koran both claim that what is written in their book will show everyone the way to eternal life. Obviously, both of these groups of people are not correct. What about Buddha? Perhaps it is his writings that show the true way to eternal life instead.
So, since neither the Bible nor the Koran nor the writings by Buddha can claim superiority or authority for itself, who or what instead, has been given authority by God to tell us which book we should buy so that we can learn how to inherit eternal life?
Paul explains that it is the Church who was given the authority from God to be the foundation and support of the truth (and this includes the writing, compilation, and interpretation of Scripture).
So, if we believe that this one Church teaches the truth about how to inherit eternal life, then we will also buy their book in order to remind us of its teachings. We will also trust this Church to guide us so that we do not make errors in our interpretation of its Scriptures.
1 Timothy 3:15 “if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” Matthew 16:18-19
The Church is the support and foundation of the Truth of the Gospel. Scripture is a tool of the Church to help instruct its members in doctrine, etc. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
“Now, the Holy Spirit has been sent to the Church as its Teacher, to guide Christians into truth, to make them wise unto salvation, to testify to them of Christ and to glorify Him thereby. (14) To the apostles, He came to remind them of Christ’s teaching, to show them its meaning, to add further revelation to it, and so to equip them to witness to all about their Lord. (15) To other men, He comes to make them partakers of the apostolic faith through the apostolic word. Paul indicates the permanent relation between the Spirit, the apostles’ word and the rest of the Church in 1 Cor. ii.10-16. The Spirit, he says, gave the apostles understanding of the gospel: “we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God”; “God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit.” Now the Spirit inspires and empowers their proclamation of these things to other men: “which things we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth”; Paul preaches, and knows that he preaches, “in demonstration of the Spirit and of power”. (16) And “he that is spiritual”—he in whom the Spirit abides to give understanding—discerns the meaning of the message and receives it as the testimony of God. This applies no less to the apostolic word written than to the apostolic word preached; and no more to the apostolic writings than to the rest of the written Word of God. The Spirit, who was its author, is also its interpreter, and such understanding of it as men gain is His gift.
Not that the Spirit’s presence in men’s hearts makes patient study of the text unnecessary. The Spirit is not given to make Bible study needless, but to make it effective. Nor can anything in Scripture mean anything when the Spirit interprets. The Spirit is not the prompter of fanciful spiritualizing, or of applications of texts out of their contexts on the basis of accidental associations of words. The only meaning to which He bears witness is that which each text actually has in the organism of Scripture; such witness as is borne to other meanings is borne by other spirits. But without the Spirit’s help there can be no grasp of the message of Scripture, no conviction of the truth of Scripture, and no faith in the God of Scripture. Without the Spirit, nothing is possible but spiritual blindness and unbelief.
It follows that the Christian must approach the study of Scripture in humble dependence on the Holy Spirit, sure that he can learn from it nothing of spiritual significance unless he is taught of God. Confidence in one’s own powers of discernment is an effective barrier to spiritual understanding. The self-confidence of nineteenth-century critical scholarship was reflected in its slogan that the Bible must be read like any other book; but the Bible is more than a merely human book, and understanding it involves more than appreciating its merely human characteristics. God’s book does not yield up its secrets to those who will not be taught of the Spirit. Our God-given textbook is a closed book till our God-given Teacher opens it to us.
A century of criticism has certainly thrown some light on the human side of the Bible—its style, language, composition, history and culture; but whether it has brought the Church a better understanding of its divine message than Evangelicals of two, three and four hundred years ago possessed is more than doubtful. It is not at all clear that we today comprehend the plan of salvation, the doctrines of sin, election, atonement, justification, new birth and sanctification, the life of faith, the duties of churchmanship and the meaning of Church history, more clearly than did the Reformers, or the Puritans, or the leaders of the eighteenth-century revival. When it is claimed that modern criticism has greatly advanced our understanding of the Bible, the reply must be that it depends upon what is meant by the Bible; criticism has thrown much light on the human features of Scripture, but it has not greatly furthered our knowledge of the Word of God. Indeed, it seems truer to say that its effect to date has been rather to foster ignorance of the Word of God; for by concentrating on the human side of Scripture it has blurred the Church’s awareness of the divine character of scriptural teaching, and by questioning biblical statements in the name of scholarship it has shaken confidence in the value of personal Bible study. Hence, just as the Mediævals tended to equate Church tradition with the Word of God, so modern Protestants tend to equate the words of scholars with the Word of God. We have fallen into the habit of accepting their pronouncements at second hand without invoking the Spirit’s help to search Scripture and see, not merely whether what they say is so (in so far as the lay Bible student is qualified to judge this), but also—often more important—whether God’s Word does not deal with more than the limited number of topics with which scholars at any one time are concerned. The result of this negligence is widespread ignorance among Churchmen as to what Scripture actually says. So it always is when the Church forgets how to search the Scriptures acknowledging its own blindness and looking to God’s Spirit to teach it God’s truth. There is no more urgent need today than that the Church should humble itself to learn this lesson once more.
We have now presented in positive outline the biblical approach to Scripture. Its text is word for word God-given; its message is an organic unity, the infallible Word of an infallible God, a web of revealed truth centered upon Christ; it must be interpreted in its natural sense, on the assumption of its inner harmony; and its meaning can be grasped only by those who humbly seek and gladly receive the help of the Holy Spirit.”
Sister Christian..your 12:31 quoting of me writing ““Yes, the blood of Christ, but THEN – it is on us to “stay” righteous.”
You do realize that snippet of mine you quote is NOT my view on this issue. I was summarizing a point being made by others (and refuted by me, Michael, Bob and others).
This is a carryover from the prior 350 post thread. You would need to read that to get caught-up as to what I was writing and why.
Of course, if you choose to do so, we will see you in about a week 🙂
All of the ponderings about other religious texts is answered by Peter in his 2nd epistle, chapter one.
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit
Far too much is made of “interpretation” when it comes to the gospel and salvation – and the gospel is the ONLY message the Bible intends for the unbeliever. Once one believes the gospel, the Holy Spirit indwells the person, and now you have the Author of Scripture Himself to be your interpreter for all the rest of it. (i.e. the priesthood of all believers).
What is it that needs interpreting here?
3 For l delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
or here?
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them
or here?
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith
I could go on with a few others of course, but the bottom line is that I have NO fear that anyone reading these verses would come to any other conclusion than what God intends. Of course, if someone comes along and says ‘You can’t understand this until we teach you the correct meaning” then they are likely to get really srewed up.
Your preoccupation and reverence for the RCC will never allow you to see.
I have another question for you. Since you like to take scripture out of context and apply literal to the non-literal let me ask you this:
In this scripture, “So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.” (Genesis 3:24,) God drive Adam out of the garden He stationed a cherubim with a “flaming sword.” Now considering at the time this happened Adam had no clue what a sword was nor was metallurgy even to a point that a sword could be forged, how did Adam know it was a sword?
Of course Moses, who wrote the account, and his readers both knew what a sword was was it really a sword or is the description written to mean something else?
AV:
Your #8 post was excellent and good example to those who use culture, history and context to explain and understand the scriptures.
Believe:
My understanding the idea of respecting authority is not that I give them a blank check for all their deeds. The way I respect human authority does demonstrate how I respond to God and His authority.
I pretty much agree with most of what SHW has written here except I would swap “Eastern Orthodox Church” for “Roman Catholic Church” in her writings. Good job, good use of Scripture, God bless you!
It is not hard to understand the teaching of the Virgin Birth. The Bible could not be clearer. Of course, we can never understand (as in to articulate, quantify etc.) what actually happened in the miracle of the Virgin Birth.
Salvation is no different. It is very easy to understand what the Bible teaches in order to be saved – namely belief in the gospel. Yes, it is impossible to understand the ramifications of the Sinless God being made sin for us and all the rest. But the verses I posted could not be clearer – and they do not need me, Michael, Chuck Smith, Packer, Luther, or any church, whether in or outside of Rome, to “interpret” them so we might “understand” them.
AV said, “It is not hard to understand the teaching of the Virgin Birth”
To “understand” the teaching does one need to fully understand how the Holy Spirit…Spirit…conceived with Mary…flesh…and produced Jesus incarnate who is both Spirit and flesh…and do you believe you can fully understand how the immaculate conception occurred and explain it in certainty…and how Jesus can be both flesh and Spirit…both fully man and fully God?
You really truly believe you have that level of understanding?
Or…do you just believe the story of Faith…without a complete understanding of how it happened…reasonably…scientifically?
Believe, Jesus was born of a virgin. He had a human mother who gave birth to him after a normal period of pregnancy, but did so without the aid of sexual intercourse in the conception. Jesus had no human father.
THAT is nothing that requires interpretation. It is black and white in the text itself. Nor is it hard to “understand” as far as simply accepting it as truth. One can reject the authority of the Bible in favor of something (or someone) else and thereby reject the Virgin Birth. (i.e. Joseph had sex with Mary, she was raped by a Roman soldier etc.)
Again – if one accepts the authority of the Bible, the gospel of salvation is easy to understand and has nothing that needs special interpretation.
If someone wants to offer different “interpretations” of those simple salvation verses mentioned earlier, that come from the words themselves and not some outside source of influence, then feel free. It won’t be long though until you start sounding like Clinton “It depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is”
MB…..don’t shave your Shepherd. They actually cool themselves through their coat….just make sure that you’ve brushed him thoroughly to get out any of the excess undercoat from winter. Keeping him brushed and hosed is the best…..but shaving is not a good idea.
Our 135# White Shepherd is not happy with us moving from the NW back to the South. We had 100% humidity the other day with no rain, and near 100 degrees. He just hangs out under the airconditioning vent. 😉
Centy….I think he’s plotting things to do in the middle of the night. 😉 The humidity here gets me a bit, being a desert kid. Still…the small town we are in is wonderful. My boys are out playing driveway hockey until dark, then catching lightning bugs until I drag them in. There are small towns in every state, I’m sure, and it is a blessing we don’t take lightly that our boys have an innocent childhood to this point.
MB…they are wonderful dogs. We had to put our first one down about a month ago, Gabriel was 12 1/2. Simon, our White Shepherd is 10 now. I’d love to get another, but I think we are taking on one of my dad’s Chesapeake Bay Retrievers this summer.
Yes, Sarah, count your blessing in that regard. My boys grew up in a heavy gang area, complete with numerous burglaries, drive-bys, etc. Our shepherds served us well in that neighborhood. I don’t know if you drove through my town when you were out for a visit last Spring. It is much like what you described although we live seven miles out of town in an area where everyone has at least one acre.
Michael…totally off topic, but I’ve read that organic, unfiltered apple cider vinegar helps inflammation– so if the carpal tunnel is because of inflammation, it might help. I’ve been taking it for another reason and the problem has totally gone away!
Centy…I loved your town. I would like to hang out there for a couple days…the drive from there through the mountains was gorgeous.
Where we lived in Vancouver was pretty rough. We had heroine/crack dealers across the street who shared the house with a bunch of alcoholic teens. There was a body found in the park by the house, and the day before we moved back here there was a stabbing across the street. We had a beer bottle thrown through the window one night after some drunk was beating on our door….so yep, I love the life here.
Funny, though…when we were moving we had some things we couldn’t take with us (paint and stuff), we had left it all out in the carport and spent the last night in a hotel. When we came back by in the morning to take the stuff to the dump, the homeless in the neighborhood had organized it all….they had taken what they wanted and left the rest in nice neat stacks. We cracked up, but were also a little sobered by how quickly people descended on the place.
Re: “Now, the Holy Spirit has been sent to the Church as its Teacher, to guide Christians into truth, to make them wise unto salvation, to testify to them of Christ and to glorify Him thereby.
*****
Yes, this is true. Notice the Holy Spirit was sent to Christ’s Church. Who did Jesus build His Church upon? Was it Michael or SHW? No. Do either of them have the authority to declare that only his/her interpretation of Scripture is the correct one? No.
Who holds the keys to Christ’s kingdom? It is the Church built upon Peter Matthew 16:17-19 and the apostles and the prophets. Ephesians 2:19-21 These “keys” denote Peter’s premier stewardship (chief steward) of Jesus’ Church. Isaiah 22:15-23
Only Peter is given the keys to the kingdom of God. These keys are passed down in this same Church to a new steward when the chief steward can no longer serve in his office. Peter’s successors are chosen in the same manner as Moses successors were. The successors of Moses were the scribes and Pharisees. Matthew 23:1-3
Jesus established only one Church. His promises are for His one Church, the Church built upon Peter and the apostles and the prophets of which He alone is the chief cornerstone. The doctrine of this one Church is protected until Jesus returns again at His Second Coming at the end of the age. Matthew 28:19-20, John 16:13 Hades will never prevail against the Catholic Church because Jesus promised to be with it always. It is His Holy Spirit who guides His Catholic Church into all truth.
there has been a lot of rationale for losing one’s salvation thru sinning – i’m not going to argue except to say that the NT use of the word ‘seal’ has to be worked around to come to that conclusion – seems a shame, tho, to take away it’s inference of finality…
MB…c’mon out. Our house is usually filled with kids…there are 17 that live on our street and they are usually in our yard / house. Some days it drives me wacky, but most days it’s a good thing.
We like being so close to Nashville, so we have some city advantages, but it’s nice to come home and not worry about the fact that we forgot to lock the door when we left or when we went to bed.
Michael…I hope it helps you. It sure took care of my issue very quickly.
Sarah…interesting about your brother and great-uncle. One doctor told me that all illness is caused by inflammation and that if you can control the inflammation, you can control the recurrence of illness.
shepherds can get relief from overheating by standing in very cold water – can you spare some ice cubes to cool that pool? or throw a bag of ice in? (hope there’s some shade for all) – some dogs will chew ice and get some relief also – their feet and mouth are their radiators…
I completely reject your assertion that the church was built on Peter and that the “keys” are handed down through apostolic succession so the rest of your construction is rejected as well.
Trying to figure out how I can trust in myself, or make sure ive crossed the t’s and dotted the i’s of the legalists…thanks be to God He is my propitiation and my only hope
organic, unfiltered apple cider vinegar
———————————————-
Someone in my family will also swear by this remedy. I’ve used it on occasion for bad throats when I need to preach.
SHW wrote “Jesus established only one Church” – if that one Church is Rome (and not simply the Body of Christ throughout all generations and locations) then everyone here not a Catholic is outside the one Church.
Yet, earlier you said we were believers too. Obviously a saved Christian believer can’t be outside of the one true Church. In fact, we reject many of the teachings of this ‘one true Church’ This is one of your many inconsistencies these last couple of days.
You can’t have it both ways. I would have more respect frankly if you would just go Middle Ages on us and call us anathema. At least THAT would be consistent with Rome’s (i.e. the one Church) actions over most of the 2000 years of history.
(Now I’m sure someone will accuse me of being a Catholic-hater – (sigh))
Re: In this scripture, “So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.” (Genesis 3:24,) God drive Adam out of the garden He stationed a cherubim with a “flaming sword.” Now considering at the time this happened Adam had no clue what a sword was nor was metallurgy even to a point that a sword could be forged, how did Adam know it was a sword?
******
When you saw a sword for the first time, did you know what it was called? If not, did you not still see it and still notice that it looked dangerously sharp?
If this is simply a story and not literally true, does it matter? Not really. The point (literal or imagery) is that Adam was forced out of the garden and not allowed back in because of his disobedience to God. Adam was prevented from returning to the garden by God’s decree due to his own disobedience.
Sin always has unpleasant consequences so now Adam had to die plus he had to work all the days of his life in order to live on earth. When he died, he could not enter into eternal life. The best he could do was to enter into Abraham’s bosom and the worst was hell. Luke 16:19-26
When one-third of the angels sinned, what was the consequence for their disobedience?
Revelation 12:3-4, Jude 1:6 They will be condemned to hellfire for eternity.
What happens to persons who disobey God and therefore do not obey His gospel?
2 Thessalonians 1:8 They receive the flaming fire of vengeance for eternity.
Just taking a break from finals and read through the last page of stuff, thanks we can use all the prayers we can get. Still dont understand how we can get all wrapped up in trusting ourselves to live a life the Lord finds pleasing. Only ive ever done that was pleasing to Him was when I was asleep, aside from that I’m pretty sure I dissapoint Him daily, hourly minutely (not a word but whatever, and by the second… my only Hope and Trust can be in the fact that He says im worthy because of who He is…everything else is just chaff, even when I try to live up to His lowest of expectations I fail. Anyone who says they can meet even Christs lowest expectation, to love our neighbor as ourselves, and love the Lord our God with a whole heart is either a liar or insane.
Back to the PHP and MYSQL world where everything makes more sense, blessings all
Bob: SHW I hope you are aware there are 613 commandments given in the Law, all of which are God’s words.
I hope you are keeping them all.
**Oh and the issue with us protestants is not keeping the commandments, it is your idea the commandments are what keep us saved and in His grace.
********
I am not under the Law of Moses so I do not have to keep any of those (613?) laws which pertain to diet or animal sacrifice, etc. Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses and so it is now finished/obsolete. Ephesians 2:14-16, Hebrews 8:13
This is the good news! I am no longer under the Old Covenant with its crushing obligations. I am now under the New Covenant instead.
So, now I only have to obey the royal law, the law of love James 2:8, Luke 10:27, Romans 13:8-10 which Jesus gives us examples of in Matthew 19:16-19 and Paul even gives us examples of sins in Galatians 5:19-21 that will prevent us from entering into eternal life.
**Actually, it is Jesus’ command that we must be obedient to His commandments in order to remain saved and in His grace.
1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
What happens to liars (the persons who claim to know Him yet do not obey His commandments)?
Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
All liars end up in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone for all eternity. Romans 2:5-9
Agreed Centy. I have traveled ALL over the place in this last year as an OTR Truck Driver, and can’t wait to get back to the Pacific NW every time I go out. Long live Oregon! 🙂
You views are tainted by the RCC so beating my head about salvation and works would mean I like that sort of thing.
I will say one thing I found over the years is no one even keeps the law of love, or the Royal law, perfectly, even RCC folks. Just check out all the problems with priestly abuse.
Additionally the James 2:8 scripture you quote, quotes Lev. 19:18.
So the Royal Law and Loving thy neighbor is not an exception to the older, 613, laws it is an encompassing scripture of those laws.
But my point is, it is impossible to keep any law and that is why Grace always comes first and then, as so many others have posted, works follow out of one’s love for God and the grace He has granted you through Jesus Christ.
5he saved us,(A) not because of works done by us in righteousness, but(B) according to his own mercy, by(C) the washing of regeneration and(D) renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Ephesians two:eight (English Standard Version)
8For(A) by grace you have been saved(B) through faith. And this is(C) not your own doing;(D) it is the gift of God,
SHW…do you believe that “belief” is something you do?
Better stated: when one is presented with explanations of salvation…be it Islam, Buddhism or rather no religion/salvation at all…how does one make the correct choice?
Does asking Jesus into your heart save you?
Does obedience to Christ’s commandments save you?
Does a proper attitude of submission to Christ save you?
I completely reject your assertion that the church was built on Peter and that the “keys” are handed down through apostolic succession so the rest of your construction is rejected as well.
SHW wrote “Jesus established only one Church” – if that one Church is Rome (and not simply the Body of Christ throughout all generations and locations) then everyone here not a Catholic is outside the one Church.
********
Not exactly. You are attached to it because of the truths that we do share (including baptism for some of you), but we are definitely not in perfect union, obviously!
SHW…if someone is “saved”….and then commits a mortal sin…they have lost their Salvation…correct?
Must they be Born Again….again…to gain their Salvation back? Do they need to re-believe? Or, do they just need to repent? How does one repent of a mortal sin? How does that manifest itself practically?
SHW…when one is Born Again and is a “New Creation”…what do you believe the “New Creation” to be…flesh or spirit…or both?
Galatians 5:16-23 (New American Standard Bible)
16But I say, (A)walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out (B)the desire of the flesh.
17For (C)the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, (D)so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are (E)led by the Spirit, (F)you are not under the Law.
What is that supposed to mean? do we have cooties?
Xenia is not a ‘non-protestant’ she is our sister
Dusty,
I think I might understand what you’re saying. I understand that different parts of the Church have different emphases. But Jesus prayed for the unity of the Church, and so must we.
I found this fascinating comment by Garry Wills, a Catholic and a historian, on why he remains a Catholic despite all the sins of the Church and all the terrible flaws of the papacy:
“I am asked, if I believe this, why I remain a Catholic. I do that precisely because I do not equate the people of God with the papacy. Well, I am told, other churches honor the Creed and the Gospel without the burden of a papacy as outdated as the medieval costumes it affects.
I want to be at one with Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and others; but I want all of these communions to come together, and I cannot do that by renouncing the Catholic membership in such an ecumenical Christianity, saying some churches are better than others.
When the disciples of Jesus came back from their first mission away from him, the apostle John reported, “Master, we saw a man driving out evil in our name, and he was not one of us, we tried to stop him.” Jesus asks why they did that: “No one who does a work of divine power in my name will be able the next moment to speak evil of me” (Mark 9:38-39).
All of us who honor his name must come together. When a Catholic tells me—often these days, it is a young woman—that she can no longer put up with the male monarchical Church, I tell her, “Stay with us, we need you. The people of God need you.”
All those who honor the name of Jesus are engaged in a joint search for the Jesus who will not be found in marble halls or wearing imperial costumes. He is forever on the run.
He is the one who said, “Whatever you did to any of my brothers, even the lowliest [elackistoi], you did to me” (Matthew 25:41). That means that the priests abusing the vulnerable young were doing that to Jesus, raping Jesus.
Any clerical functionary who shows more sympathy for the predator priests than for their victims instantly disqualifies himself as a follower of Jesus. The cardinals said they must care for their own, going to jail if necessary to protect a priest. We say the same thing, but the “our own” we care for are the victimized, the poor, the violated.
Bob: I will say one thing I found over the years is no one even keeps the law of love, or the Royal law, perfectly, even RCC folks. Just check out all the problems with priestly abuse.
**************
Truly scandalous, those priests. God will judge them justly.
Evil persons as members of God’s house:
Judas was chosen by Christ. He betrayed Christ and then despaired (perhaps because he believed that his sin was greater than God’s mercy). One out of 12 lost forever.
Peter denied Christ, yet he repented, and so he restored his relationship with Christ. He became the keeper of the keys of Jesus’ Church. Repentance of grievous sin regains salvation. One out of 12 restored to God.
Denial: Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”
Peter denied Christ by his literal words; however, all disobedient acts (sins) actually deny God.
Result of denial if not repented of before death: Matthew 10:33 “But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.”
Christ’s Church should not be judged by its membership. Jesus established His Church. It is His Church and He is perfection!!!
All evil-acting priests if they do not repent before death will be cast into everlasting hell. These weeds (tares) will be removed from His Church at harvest time and burned. Matthew 13:37-39, Luke 15:6-7, 2 Peter 3:9, Matthew 7:21-23
What is that supposed to mean? do we have cooties?
Xenia is not a ‘non-protestant’ she is our sister
Dusty,
I think I might understand what you’re saying. We all know that different parts of the Church have different emphases. But Jesus prayed for the unity of the Church, and so must we.
I found this fascinating comment by Garry Wills, a Catholic and a historian, on why he remains a Catholic despite all the sins of the Church and all the terrible flaws of the papacy:
“I am asked, if I believe this, why I remain a Catholic. I do that precisely because I do not equate the people of God with the papacy. Well, I am told, other churches honor the Creed and the Gospel without the burden of a papacy as outdated as the medieval costumes it affects.
I want to be at one with Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and others; but I want all of these communions to come together, and I cannot do that by renouncing the Catholic membership in such an ecumenical Christianity, saying some churches are better than others.
When the disciples of Jesus came back from their first mission away from him, the apostle John reported, “Master, we saw a man driving out evil in our name, and he was not one of us, we tried to stop him.” Jesus asks why they did that: “No one who does a work of divine power in my name will be able the next moment to speak evil of me” (Mark 9:38-39).
All of us who honor his name must come together. When a Catholic tells me—often these days, it is a young woman—that she can no longer put up with the male monarchical Church, I tell her, “Stay with us, we need you. The people of God need you.”
All those who honor the name of Jesus are engaged in a joint search for the Jesus who will not be found in marble halls or wearing imperial costumes. He is forever on the run.
He is the one who said, “Whatever you did to any of my brothers, even the lowliest [elackistoi], you did to me” (Matthew 25:41). That means that the priests abusing the vulnerable young were doing that to Jesus, raping Jesus.
Any clerical functionary who shows more sympathy for the predator priests than for their victims instantly disqualifies himself as a follower of Jesus. The cardinals said they must care for their own, going to jail if necessary to protect a priest. We say the same thing, but the “our own” we care for are the victimized, the poor, the violated.
London,”I can not keep up with this thread.” that’s because God has sent in a spirit of confusion 😉
my mind is looking for a way out so, i’m wondering what the difference is between: ‘can not’ and ‘cannot’ (not to be confused with ‘carrot’ which looks very similar thru my bifocals this nite… 😆
God keep all close and comforted in our knowledge of Him this nite
No, God did not send in a spirit of confusion. I just have been away from my computer most of the day and Believe is asking so many dang questions so fast that I can’t sort though his questions and the answers other people are asking or giving.
Hi all, I am just pondering days of old on the PP. 😉 Remember when we were able to click on a person’s name and see their comments in order? I know…this has a huge data base, (is that the correct word?) I am only thinking out loud. Maybe in the future we’ll be able to click and all the comments will magically appear in order. That would be really something! 🙂 blessings to all this evening!! 🙂
What is that supposed to mean? do we have cooties?
Xenia is not a ‘non-protestant’ she is our sister
Dusty,
I think I might understand what you’re saying. We all know that different parts of the Church have different emphases. But Jesus prayed for the unity of the Church, and so must we.
I found this fascinating comment by Garry Wills, a Catholic and a historian, on why he remains a Catholic despite all the sins of the Church and all the terrible flaws of the papacy:
“I am asked, if I believe this, why I remain a Catholic. I do that precisely because I do not equate the people of God with the papacy. Well, I am told, other churches honor the Creed and the Gospel without the burden of a papacy as outdated as the medieval costumes it affects.
I want to be at one with Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and others; but I want all of these communions to come together, and I cannot do that by renouncing the Catholic membership in such an ecumenical Christianity, saying some churches are better than others.
When the disciples of Jesus came back from their first mission away from him, the apostle John reported, “Master, we saw a man driving out evil in our name, and he was not one of us, we tried to stop him.” Jesus asks why they did that: “No one who does a work of divine power in my name will be able the next moment to speak evil of me” (Mark 9:38-39).
All of us who honor his name must come together. When a Catholic tells me—often these days, it is a young woman—that she can no longer put up with the male monarchical Church, I tell her, “Stay with us, we need you. The people of God need you.”
All those who honor the name of Jesus are engaged in a joint search for the Jesus who will not be found in marble halls or wearing imperial costumes. He is forever on the run.
He is the one who said, “Whatever you did to any of my brothers, even the lowliest [elackistoi], you did to me” (Matthew 25:41). That means that the priests abusing the vulnerable young were doing that to Jesus, raping Jesus.
Any clerical functionary who shows more sympathy for the predator priests than for their victims instantly disqualifies himself as a follower of Jesus. The cardinals said they must care for their own, going to jail if necessary to protect a priest. We say the same thing, but the “our own” we care for are the victimized, the poor, the violated.
FYI:
I belong to the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church. The official name for my Church is Catholic Church. There are about 15 other Rites other than the Roman that belong to this same Catholic Church. The bishop of Rome is the bishop who holds the keys of the kingdom at the present time in this Catholic Church since that is where they built the home for the pope which is slang for “papa.”
The term “Catholic Church” was already commonly in use before the first century ended.
Ignatius, the third bishop of Antioch: During the reign of Emperor Trajan (98 A.D.-117 A.D.) Ignatius was taken to Rome to be executed. The exact year of the journey is uncertain, but most scholars estimate it was around 107 A.D. or 110 A.D.. On the way to his death, Ignatius wrote letters to churches he was passing by or through. In his letter to the church of Smyrna, he wrote: “Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”[Epistle to the Smyrneans 8:2.].
This term “Catholic Church” was commonly in use before St. Ignatius wrote this letter or else he would not have used this name for Christ’s Church.
I didn’t say I didn’t like him. I just said he is asking questions so fast I can not keep up with what other people are sayinng, especially cause I had to go back to the Part 1 to see the answers to the questions I asked last night.
SHW…regarding Mortal Sins vs. other sins…you believe in a hierarchy of sin…correct?
Would Adam have been able to dwell with God in the Garden of Eden had he committed the sin of telling a lie only…vs. disobeying and eating of the Tree?
You say the repentance of “grievous” sin needs to be repented of to regain one’s Salvation…
What non-Mortal Sins or non-grievous sins could Adam have committed that would have kept him in the Garden with God?
SHW…better stated: Had Adam not eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil…yet disobeyed another instruction of God…would sin have entered the world?
Re: SHW…X is Xenia…our Eastern Orthodox representative on here.
OK, questions:
Titus 3:5 “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,”
Ephesians 2:8 plus 9 and 10: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
What do you believe these two verses to mean in the context of Salvation?
I’m sure someone asked you about both of these on the monster thread…but can you please revisit this?
*******
Oh, thanks.
Titus: washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit means baptism. None of our righteous works can atone for Adam’s sin, only Jesus’ death on the cross atones for Adam’s sin and thereby reconciles us to God. We individually receive this reconciliation/spiritual regeneration through our own baptism.
The Holy Spirit cleanses us/sanctifies us when we are baptized because this is how the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice are applied to each of us individually. This sanctification means we are holy (and we remain holy until we choose to disobey God by committing sins that lead to death). 1 Corinthians 6:11
We are spiritually regenerated (become friends of God) Romans 5:10 through the action of the Holy Spirit who removes Adam’s sin (and all of our personal sins on our souls at the exact time of the baptism).
Ephesians: No works, whether our own righteous works or works of the law (of Moses), could ever reconcile us to God in atonement for Adam’s sin. Only Jesus who is both God and Man could reconcile us to God by atoning for Adam’s sin. This is why He is called the one Mediator between God and Man. He had to die in order to give us hope of eternal life.
However, once Jesus reconciles us to God through baptism, we are commanded to accomplish the righteous works that God has prepared for us if we also desire to realize our hope and actually enter into eternal life after we die. Ephesians 2:10 is a commandment, not a suggestion.
Jesus died as a ransom for all mankind, yet not all persons are eternally saved. He only eternally saves those persons who do His Father’s will which means to do good deeds and also to refrain from committing sins that lead to death (loss of eternal life). Only the persons who obey Him are approved to wear the crown of eternal life because only the persons who obey Him truly love Him. He only gives the crown of eternal life to persons who love/obey Him. James 1:12, John 14:21
The term ‘catholic’ when used by the Early Church meant “that which is believed everywhere and by all.” It had nothing to do with the later Roman (Catholic) Church. How could it? The Roman Catholic Church didn’t exist until the fourth century.
“The rapid emergence of the Roman see as a pre-eminent centre of both leadership and jurisdicial authority is a striking feature of the life of the Western churches from the second half of the fourth century onwards.” (The Early Church, Henry Chadwick, Reguis Professor at Oxford and Cambridge).
To be a catholic Christian is not defined by institution, but by confession. For example, Lutherans consider themselves catholic Christians because they accept the beliefs Creeds common to all of Christendom as shown in the Nicene and Apostles Creeds.
!. do you believe that “belief” is something you do?
2. Better stated: when one is presented with explanations of salvation…be it Islam, Buddhism or rather no religion/salvation at all…how does one make the correct choice?
3. Does asking Jesus into your heart save you?
4. Does obedience to Christ’s commandments save you?
5. Does a proper attitude of submission to Christ save you?
******
1. Believe is an action verb. “But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.” James 1:22 Satan believes in God, but he is not saved. Judas believed in God, but he was not saved.
2. Since we know that we humans did not create the world, Someone else had to. Nothing happens without a cause. If a person has a humble and contrite heart, God will make sure that he finds Him.
Let’s say you read a pamphlet about God and you decide that you want to learn more so you go to the church at the address written on the pamphlet and after learning more, you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Great! Now, you are a child of God.
Okay, then you start reading and studying your Bible (which you received when you joined the church) and you think that baptism is what God really wants of you. So, you find a church that also holds this belief and you join it. Etc…..Where God first meets you in your life’s journey is not necessarily the same place that He brings you to after you spend time with Him.
3. Yes, this is baptism by desire. (You desire to please God more than yourself.)
4. Yes, by obeying God’s commandments we will realize our hope of entering into eternal life after we die.
5. There is no salvation without submission to God.
Well, at least from this conversation with SHW we can see what Luther was arguing against and we can see that the RCC has not changed anything. They are still works.
This is the reason that the Catholic Church says that non Christians who do the good works can still have a place in God’s kingdom. According to Vatican 2 dogma, there is a great possibility that the Dali Lama is “in” – but Luther is definitely “out”
SWH…do you believe that the Holy Spirit indwells a person who is saved?
Assuming yes…
If the Holy Spirit is also God…a part of the Trinity…and God cannot dwell with sin…then how can one commit a non-Mortal sin…and have the Holy Spirit remain in them?
How does one stay Justified while committing Venial Sins…yet loses their Justification for Mortal Sins?
In the Garden when Adam and Eve sinned…how did they know they were committing a Mortal Sin by disobeying God…if they hadn’t yet ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
“Venial sin is a sin of lesser matter than grave sin. It can also be a sin of grave matter in which the sinner did not fully consent to the sin or did not have knowledge that his actions where sinful. Venial sins will not destroy grace in the soul, and will not directly cause a person who dies in the state of venial sin to lose the promise of heaven. Yet, venial sin weakens a person’s will to avoid evil and thus may indirectly lead to mortal sin. Regardless, all sin is an offense against God and should be avoided.”
Is it Venial Sin to disobey one of God’s commands…if you don’t have the knowledge that a particular command is sin?
A mentally ill person…if they commit murder…is it counted as Mortal Sin to them or Venial Sin?
mld,
lol!!! well, what else would we expect from Romanism? They are loaded with false doctrine. Indulgences, Marianism, apostolic succession, celebacy requirements of clergy (that one has worked real well for them, hasn’t it?), purgatory, transubstantiation …….etc, etc etc….
If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of sin…and thus committed Venial Sin…when they disobeyed God regarding eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil…why did they get kicked out of the Garden of Eden?
Again, did sin enter the world because they disobeyed God…or because they ate of the Tree which gave them the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
Interesting the Catholic hierarchy of sin…one has a little bit of grace built up in the soul to cover “venial” sins…but not enough grace to cover a “mortal sin”…so one loses their salvation…which means they lose their regeneration, justification…and must re-believe…repent…and be re-born again to get their salvation back.
Yet, one can commit a “venial sin”…even a “grave” sin…as long as one doesn’t have knowledge or understanding that it’s sin…and there is just enough grace in the tank to keep them saved after those sins.
Wow, I read most of these posts but don’t have the heart to read all of them. These long threads haven’t been seen in a long time.
Anyway, I wanted to mention that there are two different kinds of works for God that a person can perform. Those which he hopes are meritorous and salvivic, and those which are done out of love and gratitude.
A Christian is called to perform good works for God, and the verse that most people truncate at the end of Ephesians 2:8-9, the great verse quoted by Michael earlier on salvation being by grace through faith and not as a result of works, is: Eph.2:10, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.” This verse shows that God wants us to perform good works out of obedience to Him and that glorify Him. But, those works cannot and will not ever be considered meritorous or salvivic for us. They may show that we truly have been saved, but they will not ever be the means of our having been saved.
Paul in his epistles laid out clearly for us that there is no way that a person could ever be justified by his works apart from being perfect, and that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ plus nothing. Notice what he says in these verses:
Romans 3:28 (NASB95)
“28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
Galatians 2:16 (NASB95)
“16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.”
Paul even goes so far as to say that those who are seeking to be justified before God based upon their works (a combination of faith plus works that they are depending upon) have been severed from Christ and have fallen from grace: Galatians 5:4 (NASB95)
“4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
A person can’t base his eternal salvaion upon a combination of faith plus works, it must be one or the other, faith or works. Here is the thing, just one sin is enough to send a person to hell if they are basing their salvation upon their works, just as Paul lays out in Rom. 3:23, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” The works option is not available for us to trust in for us to be acceptable by God, we are left only to trust in Jesus’ substitutionary death for our sins upon the cross, and His righteousness to be imputed to us if we are to be accepted by God.
In the third chaper of 1 Corinthians, Paul talks about rewards after this life for the Christian, and he mentions the person who has faith in Christ for salvation but no works that please God, and listen to what he says: 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NASB95)
“10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” This is salvation by faith apart from any good works, and the person will make it to heaven, “saved but cinged” someone once said.
Michael has carefully laid out here for us the fact that the heresy of the Galatians was to trust in their works plus have faith in Christ for salvation, and this envoked an anathema by Paul, and an admonition to us to let that person be accursed. For all of us our works are mixed, some good and some bad, and thus they will never please a totally holy and righteous God, and, maybe more importantly, when we trust to any degree in our own righteousness we at the same time trample under our feet and count as a common thing the precious blood of Christ and sacrifice He made for us so that we might be able to be saved.
Be holy and do good works for God out of love and gratitude, but never ever trust in them to make you acceptable to God…
SHW…1. if someone is “saved”….and then commits a mortal sin…they have lost their Salvation…correct?
2. Must they be Born Again….again…to gain their Salvation back?
3. Do they need to re-believe? Or, do they just need to repent?
4. How does one repent of a mortal sin?
5. How does that manifest itself practically?
*************
1. Yes, they are no longer justified. They have insulted the Holy Spirit and so He no longer remains/abides in their souls. Hebrews 10:26-30
2. No, born again refers to Baptism. You can only be sacramentally baptized once (born of water and the Spirit) John 3:2-6 The main purpose of Baptism is to remove Adam’s sin from the soul. This is why babies are baptized. Sacramental Baptism gives more grace than Baptism by Desire (which means to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, etc., but without the cleansing by washing of water through the word Ephesians 5:26).
3. When they sin mortal sins, this is unbelief. Hebrews 3:18-19 They deny the power of God to save them. 2 Timothy 3:2-9 When they repent and confess, they believe again and so they are justified.
4. Being truly sorry for having offended God and making a firm resolution to never commit this sin again. If Catholic, confession to a priest is necessary because this is what Jesus commanded. John 20:22-23 Jesus has chosen to forgive sins through His priests. It is His power that forgives the sins. 1 John 2:1 Priests are supposed to counsel the penitent during confession if this is needed. Since penance/reconciliation through a priest is a sacrament, it gives graces. These graces help to strengthen the person so that they do not sin again.
5. Prayers, alms, fasting, offering up Jesus’ merits will atone for your sins. Acts 10:4, Acts 10:30
Sacramental confession: Through the priest we are enabled (1) to ask pardon from God and receive His forgiveness (2) and to ask pardon of all the persons affected by our sins and (3) to receive their forgiveness.
Believe,
SHW…1. you say that Faith plus righteous works save…what are the righteous works that are requisite in combination with Faith to be saved?
2. Is it Faith plus one righteous work?
3. Or, is there a list of righteous works that must be completed?
***************
1. All things that you do to show love for God and neighbor are righteous works. You fulfill the Royal Law (of love) by doing righteous works. The more righteous works that you do, the greater your reward in heaven. Matthew 6:19-20
2. Persons who do no righteous works are called lukewarm. It is not a good thing to be lukewarm! Revelation 3:15-18 God will judge them justly.
SHW…”There can be no righteous works done unless faith is present at the same time.”
Can there be Faith and no righteous works…and one still be saved?
*********
Lukewarm faith is faith with no righteous works. Revelation 3:16 It is for God to judge whether they will be saved if they are lukewarm. Faith is not simply head knowledge. We must prove that we have faith by doing good deeds. James 2:20 Dead faith does not save.
Let’s say that a person repents of his sins and then is immediately killed by a heart attack. He is not an unbeliever, but he has had no time to do good works except to repent. He will be saved (his repentance is a good work), but he will be in purgatory a long time. 1 Corinthians 3:15
The persons who repented while they were drowning during the Great Flood were saved, but they were still in prison (purgatory) 2000 years later because Scripture tells us that Jesus went to preach to them during the time between His death and resurrection. 1 Peter 3:18-20 Luke 12:58-59
SHW…when one is Born Again and is a “New Creation”…what do you believe the “New Creation” to be…flesh or spirit…or both?
Galatians 5:16-23 (New American Standard Bible)
16But I say, (A)walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out (B)the desire of the flesh.
17For (C)the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, (D)so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are (E)led by the Spirit, (F)you are not under the Law.
**************
Spirit. The Holy Spirit takes up residence within our souls when we are baptized (born again). We become a new creation spiritually (we become children of God) because we are spiritually reborn (reconciled to God) through baptism.
SHW…what you believe it means to “walk” in the Spirit…vs. being “led” by the Spirit?
*******
The Holy Spirit desires to lead us. When we choose to follow His lead by obedience to God’s commandments, then we are walking in (abiding in) the Spirit.
1) You misunderstand the scriptures, we are all priests in Christ:
1 Peter 2:9 (NASB95)
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
2) There is no intermediary for us to go through to get to God there is just one mediator to God and that is Jesus Christ:
1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB95)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
3) You are deluded thinking that there are different breakdowns of sins, and that some are worse than others and some sins are venial and some are mortal, when you break any commandment you in a sense have broken them all:
James 2:10 (NASB95)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
4) You as a RCC believe in the infallibility of the pope, yet you ought to search the papal edicts throughout history and you will find that many contradict each other and that some are downright blasphemous. The history of the papacy is one of the most corrupt things you can study about. On the other hand God says that He never changes, His word never returns void, He is holy and just in all that He does, and that He never has or needs to repent for His actions. You would be wise to put your trust in God and His word and not in man. His word is sufficient also for all that you need in life:
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NASB95)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
1 Peter 1:20-21 (NASB95)
20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
2 Peter 3:15-16 (NASB95)
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
2 Peter 1:3 (NASB95)
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
Hebrews 4:12 (NASB95)
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Isaiah 40:8 (NASB95)
8 The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.
Luke 21:33 (NASB95)
33 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Matthew 7:26-27 (NASB95)
26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
Revelation 22:19 (NASB95)
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
SHW…1. regarding Mortal Sins vs. other sins…you believe in a hierarchy of sin…correct?
2. Would Adam have been able to dwell with God in the Garden of Eden had he committed the sin of telling a lie only…vs. disobeying and eating of the Tree?
3. You say the repentance of “grievous” sin needs to be repented of to regain one’s Salvation… What non-Mortal Sins or non-grievous sins could Adam have committed that would have kept him in the Garden with God?
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1. I believe that the greater the sin, the greater the punishment. Matthew 5:22, Matthew 7:3-4, Luke 12:43-48
2. God is perfect. He gave Adam a perfect test. Since, this test was perfect, there is no room for any other test possible. 2 Samuel 22:31, Isaiah 55:9
doing good is good in and of itself, but that said
i’d submit another thot on works that will not go over well with anyone who has posted here so far IMO
if it is my fleshly attempt to ‘be good’ it’s a nice thing, but has no eternal value – by the way, it’s much easier for some of us than others…
if we focus on doing good works and not sinning it will take all our efforts; we’ll rely on our own judgement and it will make the devil very happy as it will leave precious little time or energy to grow nearer to and deeper in understanding our beloved Savior
what we can be sure of, is that when we focus on Christ, make Him and the Kingdom the primary focus of our lives (harder to do than i’d like to think it is) the true good works will flow – the more we grow strong in the Lord (fine tuning our spiritual acumen in the process) the more of God’s own work is done thru us; and that aforementioned Royal Law will be fulfilled by default
get close to Him and the good (fireproof) works will flow
Did sin enter the world because Adam ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil…or because Adam disobeyed God?
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Adam disobeyed God. This was his sin. When he was forced out of the Garden of Eden because of his sin, he entered into a sinful world ruled by Satan. Ephesians 2:2
When the angels sinned, sin entered the world because the disobedient angels were thrown out of God’s presence Revelation 12:7-8, Ephesians 6:12, some down to earth Revelation 12:13, and some into Hades. 2 Peter 2:4
SHW, when you post more than three links in one comment, that comment goes directly into the spam filter…if a moderator is not on at the time your post will sit there until it can be freed….just giving you a heads up…I’ve been fishing all morning…
SHW…better stated: Had Adam not eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil…yet disobeyed another instruction of God…would sin have entered the world?
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Sin did not enter the world (all of earth except Garden of Eden) because Adam sinned. Adam was forced out of the Garden of Eden (nothing impure can be in paradise) and thereby forced to enter into the world which was ruled by Satan. Satan was already ruler of the earth before Adam sinned. When Adam sinned he entered into the domain of Satan.
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This was my reply to #146. I will get your questions answered. I am trying to do them in order so that I don’t miss any questions. 🙂
“¶ Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.”
(Romans 5:12–13 ESV)
Clearly states that sin came into the world through Adam.
Believe pondered if sin could have entered through another action on Adam’s part – isn’t the scripture pretty clear that Adam disobeyed God (as far as we know the instruction was: don’t eat that fruit over there) and then sin entered into the world … i truly don’t think we have a good grasp on the concept of sin – IMV – the individual acts are simply manifestations of a condition (a really, really bad condition)
>>Christ atoned for all my sins…past, present, and future.
>>I need add nothing to the Cross.
EXACTLY!!! Colossians 2:13 (NASB95)
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
“Satan was already ruler of the earth before Adam sinned. When Adam sinned he entered into the domain of Satan.”
You have got to be kidding me? This is a joke right?
All any of us know about the origin and creation of the earth and man (outside of scientific research) is what is written in the scriptures and this was definitely not written in the scriptures.
If this is truly the doctrinal position of RCC, EO or any other denomination, no wonder in a world of enlightenment people run from them.
I might as well take the time honored 🙁 Joel Osteen, Word Faith position that the reason why Satan came to Eve was to take dominion of the earth from them. Which scripture does say God gave them, rule over all the earth. Gen 1:26-28.
Maybe I’ll become a Mason, at least they get to drive cool little cars and wears hats with Egyptian symbols on them.
Just so you know Eph 2:2 does not say what you implied/proof texted.
Rev 12:7-8, 13 and Eph. 6:12 are also not talking about the creation of the earth or that time period.
In your world who controls hell or Hades and in Rev 1:18 it says Jesus (I think we can agree that is who is speaking here) holds the keys to death and Hades. Does this mean there is an actual physical lock on these two things? Also who kills and who sends people to Hades?
SHW – you have talked many times on here about the types of sin people after they have been baptised need to avoid in order to some how make sure they get eternal life.
So far, all your examples, at least the ones that I’ve seen, have to do with things in the negative ie don’t have sex with someone outside of marriage, don’t lie, don’t kill….all those 10 commandment things.
What I haven’t seen addressed on here by anyone is the commandments we’re to follow that are, what I’m going to call, positive. Things like bind the brokenhearted, feed the hungry, visit those in prision, clothe the naked…all that stuff Jesus said he’d come to do and which we’re called to do as well.
So far, it appears that you believe that if we’ll just avoid the “bad things” then we’ll be ok.
But, that’s not what Jesus says to his disciples when he’s talking about “I was in prision and you did not visit me, I was hungy and you did not feed me….”
Seems to me that any type of belief system that merely says “avoid the bad” without saying “do the good” is missing the mark of what Jesus is saying all along and thus can not be trusted to be a correct intrepretation of the bible.
The term ‘catholic’ when used by the Early Church meant “that which is believed everywhere and by all.” It had nothing to do with the later Roman (Catholic) Church. How could it? The Roman Catholic Church didn’t exist until the fourth century.
“The rapid emergence of the Roman see as a pre-eminent centre of both leadership and jurisdicial authority is a striking feature of the life of the Western churches from the second half of the fourth century onwards.” (The Early Church, Henry Chadwick, Reguis Professor at Oxford and Cambridge).
To be a catholic Christian is not defined by institution, but by confession. For example, Lutherans consider themselves catholic Christians because they accept the beliefs Creeds common to all of Christendom as shown in the Nicene and Apostles Creeds.
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By the time the twelve apostles died, the Christian faith had been preached throughout the whole known world. Romans 1:8
Catholic means universal. Christ’s Church was already called the Catholic Church before the first century ended and this is because its faith had already encompassed the whole known world at that time.
Ignatius, the third bishop of Antioch referred to Christ’s Church as the Catholic Church in his letters: “Ignatius, the third bishop of Antioch: During the reign of Emperor Trajan (98 A.D.-117 A.D.) Ignatius was taken to Rome to be executed. The exact year of the journey is uncertain, but most scholars estimate it was around 107 A.D. or 110 A.D. On the way to his death, Ignatius wrote letters to churches he was passing by or through. In his letter to the church of Smyrna, he wrote: “Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”[Epistle to the Smyrneans 8:2.].”
Helena was the mother of Constantine. She was a Catholic Christian. She prayed and prayed for her son and by God’s grace, Constantine eventually converted to the Catholic Church. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_and_Christianity
The Catholic Church existed before Constantine and this same Catholic Church existed after Constantine converted. The gates of Hades cannot possibly prevail against Christ’s Catholic Church. Matthew 16:17-19 No man can change the doctrines of His Church.
Because the Reformers believed that they had the authority to change God’s Church, they “borrowed” the name of His Church and applied it to themselves and to their new doctrine. Constantine had no part in matters of Catholic Church doctrine since it is only the pope and bishops in communion with him who have the authority to determine Catholic Church dogma and this is done with the Holy Spirit’s guidance. John 16:12-14
In the Council of Trent documents, the Church is called Catholic Church. This is its official name and had been for centuries.
Here is part of one of the documents of the Council of Trent:
“Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. VIII
When the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, “without which it is impossible to please God” and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, “if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise,” as the Apostle says, “grace is no more grace.”
Since the Reformers chose to think of themselves as catholic, in order to differentiate between their own catholic beliefs and the Catholic Church’s beliefs, they started calling the Catholic Church the Roman Catholic Church and this was because its headquarters was in Rome.
Now, many persons who belong to the Latin Rite (Roman Rite) of the Catholic Church call themselves Roman Catholics, but that is not its official name. Most people today do not even know that there are several different rites that belong to this same Catholic Church. Examples are Byzantine Rite and Alexandrian Rite. All Rites of the Catholic Church have equal dignity and equal value.
Well, at least from this conversation with SHW we can see what Luther was arguing against and we can see that the RCC has not changed anything. They are still works.
This is the reason that the Catholic Church says that non Christians who do the good works can still have a place in God’s kingdom. According to Vatican 2 dogma, there is a great possibility that the Dali Lama is “in” – but Luther is definitely “out”
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Salvation and entry into eternal life is achieved by Faith plus works. Faith first. Works must follow. Faith working through love. Galatians 5:6
Dead faith (faith alone) does not save. We are foolish if we think differently. James 2:20-26
So, I will be like Paul, working out my own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12 I will try to love my neighbor in the most perfect manner. 1 Timothy 4:16
Heathens and salvation:
Romans 2:14-16
or when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Heathens, called Gentiles, who do the best they can do with what they are given are saved. Heathens who do evil to their neighbors are not saved. Jesus died as a ransom for all men whether they lived and died before Jesus’ sacrifice or lived and died after His sacrifice.
God loves His creation and He desires for all men to be saved and according to Paul, these heathens can be saved. It is more difficult for them to be saved since they do not receive the many graces that Christians receive through baptism, etc.
God will judge Luther justly just as He will judge all of us justly.
revised my FB Religious Views:
“if it doesn’t show in how I act then it doesn’t matter…”
I agree with London, what about all the :: positive stuff :: that Jesus said we should be about that brings tangible benefit to individuals, encouragement, proof of God’s existence because a human touched another human and showed what Jesus’ love looks like somewhere other than in The Book?
I also agree, JESUS is the “head” of the church, not the Pope (and not any person, ever).
This has been a weird thread because of all the theological and doctrinal volleying, like a tennis match, at least without Serena Williams’ odd manner of dress 😉
So, at the end of all these discussions, is anyone free, joyful, dancing, singing? Anything beautiful created? Anyone fed? Healed?
When I was but a wee young lad, raised Roman Catholic, I heard this song while I was gaining a personal hunger for God.
I asked one of the parish priests about God and he told me that if I look at Jesus I will know all I need to know about God.
1971, that was the same year this song hit the airwaves, and my CCD teacher encouraged me to imagine Jesus singing this to us. She would be skewered by the current crop of wearisome ODMs but a bunch of us kids in that parish ended up becoming followers of Jesus and lovers of Him and His people because of a simple foundational starting point, that we could be friends with God in addition to being “servants of God”
When you’re down and troubled
And you need a helping hand
And nothing, nothing is going right.
Close your eyes and think of Me
And soon I will be there
To brighten up even your darkest nights.
You just call out My Name,
And you know where ever I am
I’ll come running,
To see you again.
Winter, spring , summer, or fall,
All you have to do is call
And I’ll be there
You’ve got a Freind.
If the sky above you
Should turn dark and full of clouds
And that old north wind should begin to blow
Keep your head together and call My Name out loud
And soon I will be knocking upon your door.
You just call out My Name and you know where ever I am
I’ll come running to see you again.
Winter, Spring, summer or fall
All you got to do is call
And I’ll be there…
Hey, ain’t it good to know that you’ve got a Friend?
People can be so cold.
They’ll hurt you and desert you.
Well they’ll take your soul if you let them.
Oh yeah, but don’t you let them.
You just call out My Name and you know wherever I am
I’ll come running to see you again.
…don’t you know that,
Winter Spring summer or fall,
Hey now, all you’ve got to do is call.
And, I’ll be there, yes I will.
You’ve got a Friend.
You’ve got a Friend.
Ain’t it good to know you’ve got a Friend.
Ain’t it good to know you’ve got a Friend.
You’ve got a Friend.
It’s just that it’s so hard to argue with bullet points.
By the time you get an answer to one, with context included, there’s 6,000 more.
Not that it’s SHW’s fault because she is doing a great job of answering as many questions as possible.
Using G’s example of tennis volleys, it’s more like those cartoons where a million tennis balls come out of the launcher at once.
SWH…do you believe that the Holy Spirit indwells a person who is saved?
Assuming yes…
1. If the Holy Spirit is also God…a part of the Trinity…and God cannot dwell with sin…then how can one commit a non-Mortal sin…and have the Holy Spirit remain in them?
2. How does one stay Justified while committing Venial Sins…yet loses their Justification for Mortal Sins?
3. In the Garden when Adam and Eve sinned…how did they know they were committing a Mortal Sin by disobeying God…if they hadn’t yet ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
“Venial sin is a sin of lesser matter than grave sin. It can also be a sin of grave matter in which the sinner did not fully consent to the sin or did not have knowledge that his actions where sinful. Venial sins will not destroy grace in the soul, and will not directly cause a person who dies in the state of venial sin to lose the promise of heaven. Yet, venial sin weakens a person’s will to avoid evil and thus may indirectly lead to mortal sin. Regardless, all sin is an offense against God and should be avoided.”
4. Is it Venial Sin to disobey one of God’s commands…if you don’t have the knowledge that a particular command is sin?
5. A mentally ill person…if they commit murder…is it counted as Mortal Sin to them or Venial Sin?
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1. Venial sin grieves the Holy Spirit, but does not cause Him to leave your temple/soul. Ephesians 4:30
2. Mortal sin insults the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 10:29-30 The Holy Spirit does not remain in a defiled temple. 1 Corinthians 3:16-18
3. Their intellect was much greater than ours since they were not born into sin. Eve was deceived, Adam was not. Adam chose to please Eve instead of to obey God. He knew he was disobeying God when he chose to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The angels also were created without sin, yet one-third of them chose to disobey God.
4. and 5. This is getting too technical for me! I am really not qualified to answer. 🙂
Remember that God knows all things. He knows whether a person would choose to obey Him or not if given the opportunity to choose.
lol!!! well, what else would we expect from Romanism? They are loaded with false doctrine. Indulgences, Marianism, apostolic succession, celebacy requirements of clergy (that one has worked real well for them, hasn’t it?), purgatory, transubstantiation …….etc, etc etc….
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So, do you think that it would be normal for all men who cannot find a woman to marry them, but who want to get married, to go out and molest little boys or teens?
Normal men do not molest members of the same sex. Celibacy is not the issue here.
Since the Orthodox Catholic Churches also have valid sacraments and valid ordinations (they can also trace their ordinations (laying on of hands) 1 Timothy 4:14 back to the apostles), their priests can do all the same things that a Catholic priest can do. Orthodox Catholics do not accept the pope as head of the Church so they are said to be in schism with the Catholic Church. They disagree with the Catholic Church’s doctrine regarding the procession of the Holy Spirit.
1) You misunderstand the scriptures, we are all priests in Christ:
1 Peter 2:9 (NASB95)
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
2) There is no intermediary for us to go through to get to God there is just one mediator to God and that is Jesus Christ:
1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB95)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
3) You are deluded thinking that there are different breakdowns of sins, and that some are worse than others and some sins are venial and some are mortal, when you break any commandment you in a sense have broken them all:
James 2:10 (NASB95)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
4) You as a RCC believe in the infallibility of the pope, yet you ought to search the papal edicts throughout history and you will find that many contradict each other and that some are downright blasphemous. The history of the papacy is one of the most corrupt things you can study about. On the other hand God says that He never changes, His word never returns void, He is holy and just in all that He does, and that He never has or needs to repent for His actions. You would be wise to put your trust in God and His word and not in man. His word is sufficient also for all that you need in life:
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NASB95)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
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1. Yes, we are all priests, but there is also a sacramental priesthood. These priests are either bishops or presbyters/elders (priest is English for presbyter). They receive the laying on of hands. 1 Timothy 4:14
Main Entry: pres·by·ter
Pronunciation: ˈprez-bə-tər, ˈpres-
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin, elder, priest, from Greek presbyteros, comparative of presbys old man, elder; akin to Greek pro before and Greek bainein to go — more at for, come
Date: 1597
1 : a member of the governing body of an early Christian church
2 : a member of the order of priests in churches having episcopal hierarchies that include bishops, priests, and deacons
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2. Jesus is the One Mediator, but there are many intercessors. *Acts 28:8*, *James 5:14*, *1 Timothy 2:1-2*
3. Matthew 5:22
RE: “10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.”
James is stating that even if you only commit one sin, you will be judged as a transgressor of the royal law of love. He is not talking about the Law of Moses.
“All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.” *1 John 5:17*
4. I put my trust in Jesus’ gospel entrusted to His Church which He built upon Peter, the apostles, and prophets with Himself as Chief Cornerstone and I have documented this in previous posts. *Hebrews 13:7-17* *1 Timothy 5:17*
The truth of Jesus’ Church does not depend upon the sanctity of its members. What is amazing is that even though there were many horrible popes, bishops, and priests who sinned grievous sins; the Holy Spirit prevented them from teaching error. If these evil persons did not repent before death, then they will also be punished in hell like Judas.
Your understanding of the documents of the Catholic Church is different than mine and so we will agree to disagree.
SHW, when you post more than three links in one comment, that comment goes directly into the spam filter…if a moderator is not on at the time your post will sit there until it can be freed….just giving you a heads up…I’ve been fishing all morning…
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Thank you for the 411. I don’t see any way to get around this, do you know of any?
I tried putting * * around Scripture quotes to prevent linking, but it still links them to ESV.
SHW,
“God will judge Luther justly just as He will judge all of us justly.”
I agree, but you have been making the case that the Church can pronounce judgment, and as Trent has (see below) – note that the Church begins each Canon with “if anyone…” I know hat Luther believed those items and so do I, hence the Church has already made the judgment – anathema!!!!
At the same time, the Church has declared “VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI. ”
and the catechism #1260 states “1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.”
So, according to RCC dogma, the ‘good’ Muslim and the ‘good’ Hindu receive God’s grace and reward – and the ‘good Lutheran is to be declared “anathema”
Canon 9 If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema (cursed).
Canon 11 If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice (righteousness) of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.
Canon 12 If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.
Canon 14 If anyone says that a man is absolved from his sins and justified because he firmly believes that he is absolved and justified, or that no one is truly justified except him who believes himself justified and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are effected, let him be anathema.
Canon 18 If anyone says that the commandments of God are, even for the one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to observe, let him be anathema.
Canon 24 If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.
Canon 32 If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.
“Satan was already ruler of the earth before Adam sinned. When Adam sinned he entered into the domain of Satan.”
You have got to be kidding me? This is a joke right?
All any of us know about the origin and creation of the earth and man (outside of scientific research) is what is written in the scriptures and this was definitely not written in the scriptures.
If this is truly the doctrinal position of RCC, EO or any other denomination, no wonder in a world of enlightenment people run from them.
I might as well take the time honored 🙁 Joel Osteen, Word Faith position that the reason why Satan came to Eve was to take dominion of the earth from them. Which scripture does say God gave them, rule over all the earth. Gen 1:26-28.
Maybe I’ll become a Mason, at least they get to drive cool little cars and wears hats with Egyptian symbols on them.
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Yes, mankind was created to have dominion over the earth, but then man sinned and got kicked out of the garden. How much dominion does mankind actually have now?
Now, because of Adam’s sin, mankind has to deal with the demons:
Ephesians 6:12 “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
1 Corinthians 5:4-6, Mark 1:11-13
Revelation 2:13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.”
What or Who do you think causes the storms and other disturbances on the earth? Perhaps it is the demons.
Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said,(W) “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil”
How did Adam know it was evil to disobey God’s command when he made the decision to disobey? When he made the decision in his “intellectual” mind he did not possess the Knowledge of Good and Evil…”the dictates of conscience”…did he?
Adam knew “after” he ate of the fruit that he had sinned…but not when he made the decision to disobey…he couldn’t have….could he? He didn’t have the Knowledge of Good and Evil when the decision to eat of the Tree was made. It wasn’t until he completed the action that he received the Knowledge of Good and Evil…am I wrong?
Taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
“Moral evil is found only in intelligent beings; it deprives them of some moral good. Here we have to deal with moral evil only. This may be defined as a privation of conformity to right reason and to the law of God. Since the morality of a human act consists in its agreement or non-agreement with right reason and the eternal law, an act is good or evil in the moral order according as it involves this agreement or non-agreement. When the intelligent creature, knowing God and His law, deliberately refuses to obey, moral evil results.
Sin is nothing else than a morally bad act (St. Thomas, “De malo”, 7:3), an act not in accord with reason informed by the Divine law. God has endowed us with reason and free-will, and a sense of responsibility; He has made us subject to His law, which is known to us by the dictates of conscience, and our acts must conform with these dictates, otherwise we sin.”
And:
“This is impossible because evil as such is not contained within the scope of the adequate object of the will, which is good.”
If the “will, which is good”…and…Adam didn’t possess the Knowledge of Good and Evil when he made the decision to eat of the Tree…then how could it be counted as Mortal Sin for Adam to eat of the Tree?
And,
If the “will, which is good”…and…Adam was created without sin…then how did he possess the ability to sin? The devil tempted him…but if the “will, which is good” is good…and Adam was intelligent yet had no Knowledge of Good and Evil…yet he “sinned”…and thus brought sin upon all of mankind…?
There is an inconsistency here…especially with regards to hierarchy of sin…and one having to necessarily “know” a matter is evil/sin for it to be counted as damning sin to them.
In Catholicism…Mortal vs. Venial…there is a distinction between “knowing” through conscience something is sin…vs. not “knowing” you committed a sin…or sins of omission. Yet sins of omission are commandments of God are they not?
So, how could Adam have committed a Mortal Sin…if he had no Knowledge of Good and Evil…unless sin is sin regardless of “knowing” and regardless of “conscience”…sin is anything that disobeys God’s commandment…in the case with Adam…God told him not to eat of the Tree…and Adam…without Knowledge of Good and Evil…made the decision to disobey God…without yet possessing a conscience…and it was still counted to him as Mortal Sin…and God could no longer dwell with him in the Garden and gave him the boot.
Likewise, how can the Holy Spirit…who is also God…dwell within a Catholic Believer…who commits “Venial” sin…by commission or omission? All sin would have to be Mortal Sin to be consistent with the example of Adam. If there was not enough grace for Adam’s decision to eat of the Tree…how could there be partial grace for the slightest decision made contrary to any of God’s commands…whether “known” or not…?
Here is Catholicisms explanation of Conscience (notice the equivocation and hedging at the outset…a tell for an uncertain and weak position):
“What conscience is in the soul of man?
It is often a good maxim not to mind for a time how a thing came to be, but to see what it actually is. To do so in regard to conscience before we take up the history of philosophy in its regard is wise policy, for it will give us some clear doctrine upon which to lay hold, while we travel through a region perplexed by much confusion of thought. The following points are cardinal:
* The natural conscience is no distinct faculty, but the one intellect of a man inasmuch as it considers right and wrong in conduct, aided meanwhile by a good will, by the use of the emotions, by the practical experience of living, and by all external helps that are to the purpose.
* The natural conscience of the Christian is known by him to act not alone, but under the enlightenment and the impulse derived from revelation and grace in a strictly supernatural order.
* As to the order of nature, which does not exist but which might have existed, St. Thomas (I-II:109:3) teaches that both for the knowledge of God and for the knowledge of moral duty, men such as we are would require some assistance from God to make their knowledge sufficiently extensive, clear, constant, effective, and relatively adequate; and especially to put it within reach of those who are much engrossed with the cares of material life. It would be absurd to suppose that in the order of nature God could be debarred from any revelation of Himself, and would leave Himself to be searched for quite irresponsively.
* Being a practical thing, conscience depends in large measure for its correctness upon the good use of it and on proper care taken to heed its deliverances, cultivate its powers, and frustrate its enemies.
* Even where due diligence is employed conscience will err sometimes, but its inculpable mistakes will be admitted by God to be not blameworthy. These are so many principles needed to steady us as we tread some of the ways of ethical history, where pitfalls are many.”
Conscience can not be a determinant for categorizing sin…since Adam had no Knowledge of Good and Evil when he ate of the Tree.
Adam could not “get himself” back into the Garden…even though he made the decision to disobey God with a “good will” and without the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Sin is disobedience to God’s Law…God’s Word…God’s command…and any one sin is enough to separate one from God…and get one “booted” out of the Garden…Venial, Mortal, commission, omission…you name it.
Had God told Adam to hop up and down on one leg…and Adam disobeyed…he would have been booted out of the Garden as well.
Otherwise…it was gaining the Knowledge of Good and Evil that was the sin…the act…not the decision to disobey…that got Adam booted from the Garden.
….meaning Adam could have disobeyed God all he wanted as long as he didn’t gain the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Better stated…it was not the gaining of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that got Adam separated from God…it was his decision…formed in his mind…his decision to rebel against God’s command…made with his will and without the Knowledge of Good and Evil…that got him booted.
1. Just so you know Eph 2:2 does not say what you implied/proof texted.
Rev 12:7-8, 13 and Eph. 6:12 are also not talking about the creation of the earth or that time period.
2. In your world who controls hell or Hades and in Rev 1:18 it says Jesus (I think we can agree that is who is speaking here) holds the keys to death and Hades. Does this mean there is an actual physical lock on these two things?
3. Also who kills and who sends people to Hades?
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1. We will agree to have differing opinions. 🙂
2. First, Jesus has control of the keys. They are His. Then, He gives them to Peter because He can no longer remain physically with His Church on earth (since He needs to return to His Father in heaven until His Second Coming). When He comes back at His Second Coming to take His Church to heaven, He receives the keys back because now He will always be physically with His Church forever in heaven.
I read somewhere that in the time period of Jesus’ walk on earth, the Jews believed that there was a physical entrance from the earth to Hades. But, I personally have no clue. 🙂
3. God. Luke 12:4-5 God is sovereign. God created man, therefore He has the right to kill him physically and also to condemn him to hell.
So, why was Satan allowed into the Garden of Eden?
He was allowed into Eden in order to tempt Adam and Eve. However, he was prevented from remaining there after he tempted them. Genesis 3:14, Genesis 3:24
God cannot tempt persons to do evil and this is because He is Perfect, Good. Matthew 5:48, Matthew 19:17
James 1:13 “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.”
God’s permissive will allows demons to tempt man in order to see if they will remain steadfast in obedience to Him until the end of their lives.
The demons always remain true to their fallen nature; they hate God and all His creation.
Revelation 3:4 “You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.”
These people did not defile their baptismal garments with mortal sins and so they will be approved to enter into eternal life when they die; this is assuming their garments remain undefiled until death. Luke 21:36, Luke 20:34-36
SHW – you have talked many times on here about the types of sin people after they have been baptised need to avoid in order to some how make sure they get eternal life.
So far, all your examples, at least the ones that I’ve seen, have to do with things in the negative ie don’t have sex with someone outside of marriage, don’t lie, don’t kill….all those 10 commandment things.
What I haven’t seen addressed on here by anyone is the commandments we’re to follow that are, what I’m going to call, positive. Things like bind the brokenhearted, feed the hungry, visit those in prision, clothe the naked…all that stuff Jesus said he’d come to do and which we’re called to do as well.
So far, it appears that you believe that if we’ll just avoid the “bad things” then we’ll be ok.
But, that’s not what Jesus says to his disciples when he’s talking about “I was in prision and you did not visit me, I was hungy and you did not feed me….”
Seems to me that any type of belief system that merely says “avoid the bad” without saying “do the good” is missing the mark of what Jesus is saying all along and thus can not be trusted to be a correct intrepretation of the bible.
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I was answering specific questions so it does look unbalanced. However, I do agree with you. God is very pleased when we do good to our neighbor. 🙂 Doing good gains much more merit (treasure in heaven) than does refraining from evil. Mark 10:21
Yes, Jesus is the supreme head of His Church. We are His body. Colossians 1:18
The pope is Christ’s representative on earth. Christ, as supreme head of His Church, personally chose to build His Church upon Peter, the apostles, and the prophets as Its foundation with Himself as Chief Cornerstone as I have documented in other posts.
1 Corinthians 3:10 “According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.”
“normal” (your term) men do not molest any body, regardless of gender or age.
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You are correct.
I was specifically addressing the issue of celibacy because Centorian implied that if these priests were allowed to marry, then they would not molest male children and male teens.
Loads of crap being spread here…a first year church history student , even at a Catholic seminary, would reject the history being given by SHW.
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God will judge me justly.
I am waiting for an answer to my questions. Perhaps you already answered them and I just did not see your answers. Here they are again:
Jesus states that we must obey His commandments in order to inherit eternal life. So, why does your doctrine ignore this teaching?
Matthew 19:16-19 “Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
Luke 10:25-28 “And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
These persons asked Jesus specifically what they must do in order to inherit eternal life.
How did He answer them? He answered them specifically:
“If you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments.”
“Do this and you will live.” (Keep/obey these commandments and you will inherit eternal life.)
I do not think that it can possibly be stated any plainer than this.
The reverse is also true:
If you do not want to enter into eternal life, don’t keep the commandments.
Also, please explain this verse:
1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
All of those commandments were before the completion of Christs’s works which included fulfilling all the of the commandments perfectly in my place.
HIS obedience, HIS righteousness…all were imputed to me when I believed in His death and resurrection in my place.
My salvation is ALL of God, NOTHING of my filthy works contribute, ALL of my sins have been paid for in HIS blood and HE has promised that HE will finish the work HE started in me.
All glory to God…for He has saved His people to the uttermost.
So, according to RCC dogma, the ‘good’ Muslim and the ‘good’ Hindu receive God’s grace and reward – and the ‘good Lutheran is to be declared “anathema”
The Council of Trent addressed the subject of heresy. 2 Peter 2:1
Anathemas are strong warnings. Galatians 1:9
Only God judges the person’s soul and it is at the time of his death.
If a person sincerely believes that he is living the truth in his own church and God has not shown him any different, then God judges according to this person’s sincerity, not his doctrine.
Saul/Paul, a good Jew, participated in the murder and persecution of Christians because he believed that he was pleasing God. He did not know any better. Philippians 3:1-8
Did God condemn Saul? No.
So, MLD, unless God makes it known to you that you should join another church, you should remain just where you are in the Lutheran Church. 🙂
MLD:
‘So, according to RCC dogma, the ‘good’ Muslim and the ‘good’ Hindu receive God’s grace and reward – and the ‘good Lutheran is to be declared “anathema.’
Sweet. Just sweet.
This explains much bloody church history that the RCC carried out against Lutherans and other Protestants.
All of those commandments were before the completion of Christs’s works which included fulfilling all the of the commandments perfectly in my place.
HIS obedience, HIS righteousness…all were imputed to me when I believed in His death and resurrection in my place.
My salvation is ALL of God, NOTHING of my filthy works contribute, ALL of my sins have been paid for in HIS blood and HE has promised that HE will finish the work HE started in me.
All glory to God…for He has saved His people to the uttermost.
I’m out of patience with this heresy now.
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1 Timothy 4:16 was written AFTER Christ’s death on the cross.
“Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said,(W) “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil”
How did Adam know it was evil to disobey God’s command when he made the decision to disobey? When he made the decision in his “intellectual” mind he did not possess the Knowledge of Good and Evil…”the dictates of conscience”…did he?
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Please forgive me for not reading all that you posted about conscience. I get brain freeze when I try to understand scholarly writings such as those. 🙂
Perhaps he did not have a conscience yet. Your guess is as good as mine!
Adam chose to please Eve rather than to obey God. He did not know what the consequences would be, otherwise I am sure, he would not have eaten that piece of fruit. 🙂
SHW, my suggestion for keeping your posts out of the spam filter is to try to limit the number of links…I understand this is not always possible when you want to back up your point with many scripture verses….so it is up to you what you do. I only wanted you to be aware that we will not always be here to pull them out of spam.
another suggestion I would like to offer is that you don’t have to quote everyone’s WHOLE post…if people are reading along they will get the idea if you make reference to the post author / number or time…
SHW,
“If a person sincerely believes that he is living the truth in his own church ”
No, that is not what the Pope and the Catechism said – they said that any NON BELIEVER who lives a peaceful life is saved – “Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, …”
They are talking about practicing Muslim, Hindus, Jews etc. This is why the Roman Catholic Church is all about works – according to the Pope and the Catechism, not your beliefs at all but just your works that will save you.
How does that sit with you that you don’t even need to believe in Jesus as Messiah?
SHW –
“Doing good gains much more merit (treasure in heaven) than does refraining from evil. Mark 10:21”
I’m a pretty visual person, so when folks say stuff like this, I get an image in my head of an old man on a big old throne with piles of coins around him like Scrooge McDuck, taking some off the balance every time we do bad and putting them on when we do good.
That’s not only non scriptural, it’s just plain silly. God is not an accountant.
He doesn’t have a giant score board up in heaven marking down every single thing we do or not too and then tallying it all up in the end, right at the moment we die, to see what the score was.
No SHA, Jesus is head of the church. period.
King of the kingdom and all that.
The pope is only in charge of the Catholic Church. We owe zero alligenance to him and all the allegience to Christ, the one true King of heaven and earth.
The pope is no more a representative of Christ on earth than I am or anyone else that claims to be a christian. It’s just not biblical nor does it even make sense to think that Jesus literally had a set of physical keys that he handed to Peter and said…”here, watch these till I get back would ya?”
This has been an interesting thread. At least I understand a bit more about what the RCC teaches and why people get so upset by it.
This explains much bloody church history that the RCC carried out against Lutherans and other Protestants.
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No, and it also does not explain the much bloody church history that the Reformed Protestants carried out against the Catholics.
Torture and Capital Punishment
In past cultures, both civil authorities and religious authorities regarded heresy as a terrible crime and it was punishable by torture and death. Some used these punishments as a means to “persuade” heretics to recant their heretical beliefs in order to save their souls and also to prevent them from leading others astray by their heretical teachings.
Torture and killing have a long track record of “acceptance” starting with the Israelites, who at God’s command, killed the inhabitants of the promised lands which God gave them, in order to prevent the Israelites from adopting the pagan beliefs of the people in the lands that they conquered and also as punishment for the sins of the pagans in the lands that they conquered.
1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
We see another example in the Jew Saul, a devout Pharisee, who later became St. Paul. He tortured and killed the early Christians. This was done to keep the Jewish religion “pure” and free from heresy.
Acts 26:9-11
9 “Indeed, I (Paul/Saul) myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. 11 And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.
Unfortunately, civil authorities and some members of the Church also later continued this “legacy” of capital punishment for heresy until it was finally outlawed in the 1800’s. Until then, heresy was a capital offense punishable by death. Protestant reformers also killed Catholics and others as punishment for this same reason.
According to Scripture, anyone who committed heresy (taught a different gospel other than the apostles) was accursed.
Galatians 1:9
As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
2 Peter 2
In order to prevent heretics from continuing to believe in and/or teach heresy, they used torture and also threatened death and also killed in order to try to persuade them to recant of their heresy and thereby save their souls.
They thought it necessary to use torture and death in order to save the souls of heretics.
Mark 9:42-48
“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
Matthew 18:33-35
Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
It is not prudent to use our present 21st century standards to judge ancient Jewish and past Christian (Catholic and Protestant) punishments for heresy. This is what they learned from their predecessors and they continued it until it was finally outlawed in all the “civilized” countries.
It was done in good faith in order to prevent a greater evil “heresy” which renders a person’s soul lost for eternity if he does not repent before death. Saving souls was the most important thing to them. How they are saved was not.
It is difficult for us to understand their way of thinking since we were never immersed in their beliefs about torture and capital punishment which they learned from those before them and those persons learned from those before them, all the way back to God commanding the Israelites to kill those persons who did not believe as they did.
How does that sit with you that you don’t even need to believe in Jesus as Messiah?
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Abel did not believe in Jesus as Messiah, neither did Noah, etc., and yet Noah and others were righteous. They lived before Abraham was chosen by God. Genesis 7:1
Cornelius was a Gentile and he was righteous. Acts 10:29-31
SHW, how do you know what you believe if you can’t use your own wording to defend it? I am really sad that you were doing that…but then again…you know everyone who has engaged in conversation with you have used their own knowledge of what they believe…not relying on someone else work/research to argue points. God’s word is solid in their hearts and minds.
Are you really saying that murdering fellow believers, even if they’re deemed heretics, is acceptable before God? Really? Let me hear it from your lips. Don’t equivocate like you did in your last post.
I find it highly ironic that you cite the Bible when it fits your preconceived points of view, but you ignore its authority in the life of the church. Are you really saying that God wants His followers to kill other of his followers? Are we supposed to emulate every action recordded in Scripture? Again, don’t equivocate — yes or no? I shudder to think what the world would be like under your type of Catholicism. Would we even be allowed to read the Bible by ourselves.
Yes, there were Protestants who killed Catholics — and that’s shameful and horrific. But again, don’t play revisionist historian and equate the opposite.
Here’s some of the fine Catholic actions that have occurred in history — and this is only one time period!
‘In the 1100s, Arnold of Brescia was excommunicated, hanged and then burned. John Wycliffe of England translated the bible into English, and his followers were later hunted down and killed. John Hus from Prague was excommunicated then in 1415 he was captured and burned, despite the fact that he had a letter of safe passage from the Emperor.
But eventually the weight of the reformers grew strong enough to survive, but only at the cost of millions of lives as the Protestant Reformation battled the Catholic Counter Reformation in towns and fields throughout Europe. Martin Luther’s 95 theses, nailed to a church door, set off a fire storm of violence and blood. German princes managed to fight Catholic armies to standstill by 1555, which resulted in the Peace of Augsburg. Protestant “heretics” were allowed to live in Germany, but that level of tolerance was not extended to other countries.
Unfortunately, that “peace” didn’t last – from 1618 to 1648 Europe experienced The Thirty Years’ War which left Germany a wasteland after millions and millions were slaughtered. Catholic armies under the leadership of Catholic Emperor Ferdinand II kept defeating Protestant armies, but then made the mistake of trying to eliminate Protestantism completely, engaging in terrible repression and persecution…
Catholics Killing Protestants
In France, the largest Protestant group was known as the Huguenots. They were mercilessly persecuted, and King Henry created a heresy court known infamously as The Burning Chamber because that was the standard punishment for heretics. On the night of August 24, 1572 – known as St. Bartholomew’s Day – Catholic soldiers swept through Huguenot neighborhoods of Paris in a foreshadowing of what would happen to the Jews under Nazi rule.
Thousands were slaughtered in their homes and other massacres timed for the same night occurred in cities across France. In response to this, Pope Gregory XIII wrote to France’s King Charles IX: “We rejoice with you that with the help of God you have relieved the world of these wretched heretics.”
Pope Pius sent Catholic troops into France to aid in the repression efforts, ordering the army commander to kill all prisoners. Pius, unsurprisingly, was later canonized as a saint. In the Catholic Church, sainthood is an honor which goes not to the nicest person or to someone who has aided humanity, but to those Catholics who have done great deeds to advance the cause of Catholicism. As a result of such treatment, Huguenots fled France in large numbers. One group reached what would later become Florida – and when they were discovered by a Spanish expedition, all were killed.
In Flanders, all heretical Protestants were ordered executed and thousands were burned at the stake. But queen Mary was merciful to Protestants who recanted – instead of burning, the men would be killed by a sword and women buried alive. Philip II, Spanish king and also ruler of Holland and Belgium, was positively obsessed with eliminating Protestantism and ordered that all prisoners be killed so that there would be no chance that they might escape through neglect or mistakes. The Duke of Alva was sent in and began what became known as the “Spanish Fury” in which thousands of Antwerp Protestants were killed and almost all “heretics” in Haarlem were massacred.
“It is not prudent to use our present 21st century standards to judge ancient Jewish and past Christian (Catholic and Protestant) punishments for heresy. This is what they learned from their predecessors and they continued it until it was finally outlawed in all the “civilized” countries.”
It is not prudent to use our present 21st century standards to judge ancient Jewish and past Christian (Catholic and Protestant) punishments for heresy. This is what they learned from their predecessors and they continued it until it was finally outlawed in all the “civilized” countries.
maybe I am wrong…maybe I am the only one who does not think this is right.
but I would really rather hear what everyone has to say for themselves…I could go to the other sites if I wanted to know what they think about any given subject.
Are you really saying that murdering fellow believers, even if they’re deemed heretics, is acceptable before God? Really? Let me hear it from your lips. Don’t equivocate like you did in your last post.
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Apparently it was since God told the Israelites to kill all the inhabitants of some lands.
Apparently it was since Saul, a devout Pharisee, murdered and persecuted Christians.
Do I personally think that Christians should now kill others in the name of God? No.
But, the Muslims today still believe that they should kill in the name of Allah/God and so they do.
Apparently it was since God told the Israelites to kill all the inhabitants of some lands.
Apparently it was since Saul, a devout Pharisee, murdered and persecuted Christians.
SHW,
Are we Muslims? Because they kill, then we can, too? Wow.
You really need to read your Bible more closely. Context, context, context.
Old Covenant, New covenant.
Does the Bible ever commend what Saul did? No. Saul was spiritually blind until the Holy Spirit opened his eyes and after the Lord saved him, he no longer killed people.
bella, as far as reinventing the wheel…what if a pastor or teacher grows in their faith? if they only use what they wrote years ago…then the new insight, wisdom gained through the years will be for nothing ‘cuz they are still using what they thought in the past…
how many of us still think the way we did when we were say 20? or even 5 years ago? haven’t we grown? learned? changed our thinking ‘cuz it was wrong?
bella, thanks. it is a picture of a yard statue that I found on line….I was going to purchase the statue but lost the link and have not been able to find it again…but I did find and bought a similar statue a few weeks ago…I thought about updating my avatar but am sentimentally attached to the picture I already have – silly I know.
Well, everyone, it has indeed been fun, but I need to get back to my normal routine.so I will say “Adieu.”
If anyone would like to get in touch with me to ask more questions (one at a time, please ;)), you can email me at studyhisword101 -at- yahoo.com (don’t want pesky spam trawlers getting my address) I will most likely always remain in the 101 category, but God loves me anyway.
Since history has been brought up in the last several posts, just thought I would note the irony for you all that SHW has been quoting Scripture after Scripture as authority for her views in support of the church that did everything in its power for over 1000 years to keep the knowledge of the Scriptures out of the hands of the people, including killing those who might seek to translate the Scriptures into a language actually spoken and read by the people.
Luth, I should have said Paul killed, not murdered. In Saul’s mind he was killing in God’s name. God will judge the Muslims and everyone else. I prefer to let God sort it all out.
Dusty, I always read my stuff and make changes.each time before I post. And, some are definitely important changes.
I think I have now replied to every post referring to SHW and if I have not, please accept my sincere apology.
I like having SHW here. But I’d like having her here an awful lot more if she showed any interest in understanding protestant Christianity. No one on here has time for someone who thinks they know better or is disrespectful of other brothers and sisters in Chirst, no matter what church they belong or don’t belong to.
Stuff she’s said so far about the Reformation is quite shallow and on the level of sound bytes. I’ve heard similar shtick from other Catholic apologists on the radio, etc.
I’d be much more interested in having a Catholic here who’s interested in dialogue and understanding, not polemics. Most folks here are quite solid in what they believe. This is definitely not a ‘swallow and follow’ site!!
I’ve always thought of PP as similar to Touchstone Magazine, where folks from Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodoxy dialogue, learn from each other, and find areas of agreement, of which there are many.
SHW isn’t going to convert anyone here. That’s not what PP is about.
my take on it, well first SHW Trent, V1 and V2 dont match and all have “apostolic” authority despite all the hand waving at Catholic Answers. I have great respect for Catholics and Catholic spirituality, as for the corporate end of the spectrum, not much. As for the rest of the conversation, I got lost at “Adam and Eve and Sin entering the universe after the fall”. Of course anyone who has been here long enough knows that about me. I do hope you all have a fine evening.
Pretty much agree with you….although the flood of posts and their length makes dialog difficult.
I will also confess that this has created a crisis of conscience in me…I can’t stand to see justification by faith denied and mangled while being replaced with soul killing works righteousness and legalism.
“Yes, mankind was created to have dominion over the earth, but then man sinned and got kicked out of the garden. How much dominion does mankind actually have now?
Now, because of Adam’s sin, mankind has to deal with the demons:”
and…
“What or Who do you think causes the storms and other disturbances on the earth? Perhaps it is the demons.”
Both of these statements contradict your previous statements about Satan already having control over the earth, but not the garden. Oh and God never took dominion or rule away from man kind over the earth, we just stink at it because of our sin. And I think you might also find scripture has something to say about who causes both blessing and calamity. It’s worth a read.
London:
decaf it is.
Guitar guy:
Your right about this:
“So, at the end of all these discussions, is anyone free, joyful, dancing, singing? Anything beautiful created? Anyone fed? Healed?”
And the answer is no!
Since we all seem to know and agree that there must be fruit that follows a believer the problem stems from the fact SHW is blossoming from a different tree, and quite possibly a different crate to carry the fruit in. Therefore I get no kick out of discussing apples and oranges with SHW.
SHW:
I got to give you credit, you are the most patience, determined and Teflon coated poster I have read here on PP. You have generated over 600 responses and that has to be a record. I don’t think Skip H or maybe even Todd B got such a crowd.
They did not have printing presses in the early days. Most people were illiterate because they were poor. That is why Catholic churches had stained glass windows — to show the gospel in pictures.
A Bible took a long time to print by hand letter by letter and so they were very expensive. There were Bibles translated in the native languages of a few of the peoples but not most of them yet at the time of the Reformation. The Reformation is the time period in which the printing press was invented and printing became revolutionized and books became inexpensive enough for ordinary people to buy.
Bibles were burned because they had major errors in translation. People were killed because that is what both Catholics and Protestants did back in those days.
You seem extremely bitter against the Catholic Church, and if this is so. I am sorry for your pain. May God bless you and keep you close to His Heart.
You seem extremely bitter against the Catholic Church, and if this is so. I am sorry for your pain.
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I said somewhere before that I would be accused of Catholic-hating. Now it comes out.
The revisionist history in SHW’s 11:15 is staggering.
Just…staggering…
Are these blatant lies (despite all that has been written about the need to live rightly before God), or is there really this much ignorance.
I have read in detail most if not all SHW’s posts and what got me fired up wasn’t that I disagree with her on doctrine , which I do for many of her positions, it is the handling of scripture and the mixing of fables and human traditions with them.
If the proof texts provided are examined, even in the most casual way, one will find most are poor and out of context. There is also the inability of SHW to be able to decide if a text is literal, metaphorical or anthropomorphic in nature. When challenged to put these text into the context of the authors, culture and history she is unable to do so.
The easiest example I can give is the idea of Jesus receiving, carrying and then passing on literal keys to Peter. First of all the scripture reference to keys is a “word picture” of one who has been given the authority over something. It is the same as the idea of “binding and loosing” scripture, a common 1st century rabbinical terminology used for one who has authority to make decisions.
A good example of such binding and loosing authority in the NT church is in Acts chapter 15. James, the head of the church, had the responsibility to make a determination about gentiles and how they were not bound by certain Jewish laws.
The sad part is SHW added to scripture by saying that the “keys” were given to Peter, something which is not clearly spelled out in scripture. Additionally the same Acts 15 scripture, mentioned above, would imply that James, not Peter, was the head of the newly formed church.
I would also worry when things are said like, Jesus possibly believed there was an actual portal or gate into the underworld. While it is true during the 2nd Temple period some rabbis did record this as a possible belief, at no point is there any indication that Jesus held such a belief and to suggest otherwise is merely spreading fables and mis-information.
Over all I am disturbed by SHW and her speaking with authority about doctrine when there are so many weak and untrustworthy holes in her presentations.
Dusty, it bothers me that anyone so loyal to their church would be so deliberately blinded to the truth of its history, or otherwise so deliberately deceitful while posting in the name of Christ. I see no 3rd option though.
I don’t know which of the two is the case here – but either one truly saddens me. Plus, it gets me thinking about the atrocities done in years past to our true brothers in Christ who refused to toe Rome’s line of thinking and obedience. John Wycliffe comes to mind in this context. Such memories further sadden me.
As has been stated many times, by many posters – we are officially anathema to the Roman Catholic Church. All this talk about “God will judge Luther’s heart” is completely at odds with the messages here about Rome having the keys to the kingdom and being the one true church on earth. The Pope and the church he runs damned Luther to hell.
Now that either should mean something in SHW’s world, or she should just say that the Popes of the past went too far and took upon themselves power and authority they do not have. Of couse, in admitting such a thing, what does that say for the current Pope and his future successors or for the RCC in general.
another voice, thank you for what you said on the other thread….it really touched me.
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You are welcome. It was a sincere pleasure to say it
‘As has been stated many times, by many posters – we are officially anathema to the Roman Catholic Church.’
If that’s true, then I don’t really see much of a basis for dialogue with SHW here.
I echo what Bob and AV said in their posts. Her reply to me earlier about the fact that the RCC didn’t exist until the middle of the fourth century was a propagandistic brew of obfuscation, nonlogic and ignorance — whether willful or not, I can’t judge.
One thing that saddens me is that SHW is promulgating an authoritarian, preReformation Catholicism. She’s kind of stuck in the 1100s. The fact is — and this is just one example — many Catholic theologians today admit that Luther’s reforms were right and necessary. But you’ll never hear that from a Catholic propagandist. They appear just want to score points.
Very interesting. Especially now knowing that SHW is a Catholic Apologist and an expert. That emphasizes the equivocation on the issue of “conscience” and “the will is good” and the eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil…and original sin.
During my cursory foray into Catholic Theology and Apologetic the weak issue that jumped out was “conscience”…and the inability by Catholics to take a firm stand on that issue…yet such an importance is placed on a person’s “doing what they believe is right according to their conscience.”
Let me explain:
When challenged on the issue of “conscience” and when man received his conscience:
SHW first said “When he was created. A person’s conscience is what gives him the ability to choose between good and evil.”
SHW then said, “Please forgive me for not reading all that you posted about conscience. I get brain freeze when I try to understand scholarly writings such as those.”
This is a Catholic Apologist who has all the answers making that statement.
Then SHW said, “Perhaps he did not have a conscience yet. Your guess is as good as mine!”
So now it’s a guess…to minimize and deflect (my opinion) away from a critical error in Catholic Theology and Apologetic.
SHW then said, “Adam chose to please Eve rather than to obey God. He did not know what the consequences would be, otherwise I am sure, he would not have eaten that piece of fruit.”
SHW then said, “Actually, your guess is most likely better than mine!”
“Conscience” defined: “Conscience is an ability or a faculty that distinguishes whether one’s actions are right or wrong.”
One doing what they “believe” to be right or wrong is a critical part of Catholic Theology. Hierarchy of sin and the examples given regarding people of other religions that don’t believe in Jesus as Messiah as getting some sort of pass if they truly believe what their conscience tells them. It places the importance on a man’s “conscience”…and his decisions based off of what he believes is right or wrong…rather than what God defines…through God’s Law…of what is right or wrong.
In other words…Catholics appear to believe that ignorance is a defense of the Law. Rather, IMO, the Bible is clear that Jesus Christ is both the Cornerstone and the Stumbling block…and that ignorance is no defense of the Law…and that man’s conscience is not the determinant…it is God’s Law…and the only way to satisfy God’s Law is Faith in Jesus Christ our Messiah.
Actually Luth…I hope SHW sticks around. It will, after dissecting more issues, clearly define the differences and one can make the decision as to whether those differences are primary or secondary.
I’m hoping the PP family will think about the following regarding the issue of man’s “conscience” and “morality” and determining Good and Evil…vs. God’s Law.
If Adam was created with his “conscience”…then what are the implications related to Catholic Theology (or any Theology or belief system for that matter)…and “chose” to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil…made the decision in his mind to disobey God’s command…and ate of the Tree anyway…and became “like God”…
If Adam was not created with his “conscience”…but rather gained his “conscience” AFTER the decision he made in his mind to disobey God’s command…and made that decision not knowing what he was doing was wrong…and then ate of the Tree and gained the Knowledge of Good and Evil…then what are the implications?
There is no third option. Adam either knew what he was doing was wrong or he didn’t…when he made the decision in his mind to disobey God’s command.
“CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema. ”
>>The truth of Jesus’ Church does not depend upon the sanctity of its members. What is amazing is that even though there were many horrible popes, bishops, and priests who sinned grievous sins; the Holy Spirit prevented them from teaching error. If these evil persons did not repent before death, then they will also be punished in hell like Judas.
This is the silliest thing I have read on this blog in a couple of years. The ‘Holy Spirit prevent them from teaching error’, they had to teach error because the popes contradict each other and contradict the clear teaching of the word of God. Let me ask you this, “Do you walk around with ear plugs and your hands covering your eyes?” You would have to do this to believe this kind of blatant propaganda. Just a cursory search on the internet of papal edicts and their contradictions would have revealed the error of your doctrines.
Here is a website if you would like to examine these things:
Why am I not allowed to change my mind when someone convinces me that my idea was wrong? Isn’t that what spiritual growth is all about?
I have never ever claimed to be an expert because I am not. Posting on just one other blog does not make me famous nor does it make me an expert especially since it is a Catholic blog and I am Catholic.
I simply thought that I was being courteous by answering your questions in the best way that I knew how, using Scripture alone which is your standard, and I actually thought that you were interested in learning what a faithful Catholic really thinks and believes instead of what other Protestants believe Catholics think and believe.
Every Scripture is true. If two seem to contradict, then a person’s understanding of them needs more study.
For example:
James states that “……we are justifed by works, and not faith alone.”
This is true or else nothing else in the Bible is true.
And so is this:
1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
Evidently, you didn’t consider what I wrote earlier about faith producing works, but that if you try to base your salvation upon works (considering those being meritorious or salvivic) then you will be lost for eternity??? James’ point is that genuine saving faith produces works…
Geez, you just cherry-pick scripture after scripture that seems to prove one of your points without considering at all the context of them.
Paul’s ending advice to Timothy has given the church a famous, and on the surface enigmatic, saying: “Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers” (v. 16). The opening line is an exquisite summary. “Watch your life” refers to the fivefold example of godliness commanded in verse 12: “in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.” “Watch your … doctrine” references his preaching and teaching (v. 13), which are to be exercised since he has been gifted for ministry (v. 14).
The balance of life and doctrine is the key to spiritual success. Doctrine has everything to do with life, because what we believe about God determines how we live. The more we know about God and his workings, the more we will love him, and the better we will serve him. Do you love him now? Will you love him less if you learn more of him and his Word? The great need of people today is to know more of God—to know more doctrine. Doctrine is the most practical thing in life!
On the other hand, godly lifestyle has everything to do with maintaining doctrine because if we do not live according to what we know of God and his Word, we will either disbelieve or will attempt to change his Word. This is exactly what has happened with so many who have departed from the faith.
So we need to “watch [our] life and doctrine.” What am I like? Am I consistent? How is my “speech”? How is my “life”? How is my “love,” my “faith,” my “purity”? How is my “doctrine”? Is it truly Biblical? Or is it secularized or syncretized? Do I really believe what I say I believe? And am I believing it more as time goes on?
This is all so important for your ministry because if you “persevere in them … you will save both yourself and your hearers” (v. 16). Paul is being instructively enigmatic here because he taught again and again that salvation comes only through God’s sovereign mercy and grace. He left no doubt—we do not and cannot save ourselves. His point is that those who persevere in life and doctrine will persevere in salvation.
Timid Timothy was in a tough spot—pastoring a church that had not called him—ministering to a people who despised his youth and inexperience. But he succeeded 1) because he was godly in character, 2) because he focused on the Word, 3) because he exercised his gift, 4) because he worked hard, and 5) because he carefully watched his life and doctrine.
Such lives work out their own salvation (Philippians 2:12). They save themselves and then save their hearers. How is your “life”? How is your “doctrine”?
Hughes, R. K., & Chapell, B. (2000). 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus : To guard the deposit. Preaching the Word (118–119). Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.
Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
“But in this way, we shall be told, all are cut off from the hope of salvation; for who is there that is not chargeable with some of those sins? I reply, Paul does not threaten that all who have sinned, but that all who remain impenitent, shall be excluded from the kingdom of God. The saints themselves often fall into grievous sins, but they return to the path of righteousness, “that which they do they allow not,” (Romans 7:15,) and therefore they are not included in this catalogue. All threatenings of the judgments of God call us to repentance. They are accompanied by a promise that those who repent will obtain forgiveness; but if we continue obstinate, they remain as a testimony from heaven against us.”
John Calvin, Calvin’s Commentaries (Complete) (trans. John King; Accordance electronic ed. Edinburgh: Calvin Translation Society, 1847), n.p.
SHW,
I would like to ask a BIG favour.
Today, can we have a scripture fast and you just share about yourself WITHOUT posting bible verses?
What really works around here is if you come and engage as a person.
Are you a male of female? Married? Kids? What do you do for a living? What part of the planet are you on? Do you like coffee? What’s your favorite meal?
SHW, I approached you with an open mind. I have challenged others on here pretty stringently as well. I once told Michael emphatically that the Swiss could use Calvinism as cheese…it has so many holes in it. I am in a process of exploring and proving that claim as well…
I want Truth. I beg God for it. I did not mean to insult you…I was surprised to discover that you didn’t have an answer regarding conscience…and surprised to learn of a serious error in Catholic Theology…which I’ll explain further. I hope you’ll continue to interact with me to discover Truth.
I do apologize for offending. In Michael’s case…when I made the statement…I was doing it in pride and was a bit miffed at him.
My words could have been phrased nicer and I could have given you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincerely seeking on a journey (like the rest of us) as well…and not trying to convert us to Catholicism.
“Man has free will…and man’s free will is to do good.”
“God is Sovereign.”
Dusty shared a riddle yesterday (or was it the day before?). In order to solve the riddle…one has to look (at glance) a seemingly incompatible list…and find a Greater Truth that satisfies all on the list.
The question was “what is greater than God?”….Nothing.
If you believe that the premise of the riddle is a True premise…than naturally one has to find what is the Greater Truth when competing ideas are present.
In the case of the riddle…it was clear that for the riddle to be “True”…the only answer one need worry about was “what is greater than God?”…and naturally the answer could be applied to the rest of the list…and still be “True”…
Regarding SHW’s supposed misuse of Scripture, let me say this. When I was an Evangelical, we always arranged certain scriptures in a certain way to achieve a certain result. That is to say, certain verses could be arranged to demonstrate the doctrines of the Five Solas, for example. Folks get used to seeing these verses used in this way and assume that this is the only way they can be arranged and fall off their chairs when they see them arranged differently.
It’s like having your living room furniture arranged the same way for 40 years and one day you come in the room and everything’s in a different place. Heresy!
I experienced this first hand when I began reading Orthodox books. I saw verses used to support ideas in ways that were quite new to me. Who rearranged the furniture? I never thought that little table could be used to hold up that vase. But look how nice it looks!
I am not a Catholic though. Sometimes in these discussions I find myself sticking up for the Catholic side because we do have much in common but I am not a great fan of Catholicism.
This principle can be applied to seeking Truth in Scripture…under the assumption that applying “Reason” is appropriate…and functioning under the premise that God Is…is Truth.
On the contrary, if we knew the truth about sin we would know that we have no righteousness in or about ourselves and are wholly dependent on the finished work of Christ.
The questions before the house are quite simple…did Christ accomplish the salvation of the elect or didn’t He?
Can I look to the Cross for redemption or must I somehow combine my own righteousness with His work… when my righteousness is filthy rags?
Is grace freely given or earned by works…which would nullify grace completely?
It’s simple and I’m bone tired of the discussion for now.
Out of all of God’s attributes…what is the one attribute that MUST be True for Him to be God…and have the ability to fulfill ALL of the things in the Word?
This may be heresy but the reason I gave up Bible memory verses at a very early age in my walk is because I could not just focus on one or two verses that left out the context of the entire paragraph and often chapter. Context is EVERYTHING.
Instead, I just read and reread Scripture, like listening to a song over and over until whole paragraphs are lodged in the memory.
As a result, I can often quote you huge sections of Scripture but need Strongs to help me remember what chapter in what book I am quoting 🙂
(The smiley should be the red-faced embarassed one but I don’t know how to make that one)
Believe,
You did not offend me. You were kind and I appreciate that.
I was simply answering questions to the best of my knowledge. I was sharing what I thought and believed. You made me think and because of that, I changed some of my beliefs. Thank you for your help.
I do not want to answer any more questions on this blog since I make some people unhappy when I do.
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
“Man has Free Will and (from the Catholic Encyclopedia) “This is impossible because evil as such is not contained within the scope of the adequate object of the will, which is good.”
1. Can man have Free Will…as understood and expressed by Catholic Theology and Doctrine…and God still be God with all of His attributes in tact?
2. Can Man’s Will be Good and not undermine a Greater Truth?
SHW…I really wish you’d keep sharing and ignore those who are bothering you…at least keep lurking and reading…I can email you privately if I have a specific question.
The Catholic Encyclopedia is pretty extensive and a good resource (to see the Catholic position on most issues) for me so I can ask and answer my own questions…
If I was a pagan or Lutheran, or Orthodox, etc. and then I learned what the Catholic Church taught and as a result of my knowledge, I believed it to be true, but I refused to join the Catholic Church because I still prefered being a pagan, then I would not be saved unless I joined the Church before I died.
This is what it actually means, but I am sure you will not agree. 🙂
1 Timothy 4:16 was written AFTER Christ’s death on the cross.
“Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
Save in what sense?
There are other options than salvation from hell.
Like being saved from the unsavory consequences of bad doctrine in this life, like chastisement from God, or the temporal judgement of God.
Over and over again (Especially in the Gospel of John) the only condition presented for salvation from hell, is faith in the finished work of the cross by the Lord Jesus Christ on our behalf.
If there are those in the community who wish to engage with you and you wish to do the same, then I’ll trust that God will keep His elect from any error.
adding anything to the “finished work of Christ Jesus” on the cross can, perhaps, be visualized as being given the finest piece that Michelangelo ever sculpted and then set about decorating it…
our works should be concerned with its display and care – nothing we can do will add anything to its value or our prestige
SHW said, “If I was a pagan or Lutheran, or Orthodox, etc. and then I learned what the Catholic Church taught and as a result of my knowledge, I believed it to be true, but I refused to join the Catholic Church because I still prefered being a pagan, then I would not be saved unless I joined the Church before I died.”
Yes. This is the critical error in the Catholic position, IMO.
It places man’s “knowing” and “man’s conscience” and man’s perception of “right and wrong” and “morality”…which is subjective…above God’s Law…which is Absolute.
Just to be clear, good teaching may indeed save some from hell, but only teaching that lines up with the whole of teaching on a subject.
In the catholics case, their view of soteriology compels them to deny salvation as a present possession from both Paul and Timothy.
In other words, in their view, both Paul and Timothy were “works in progress” – working towards their salvation.
In the case of 1 Timothy 4:16, which is a pastoral epistle, I believe the larger context is his teaching believers correctly within a sanctification context. Failure to do this properly would be damaging to both him and his fellow believers, but faithful teaching would “save” them from this damage.
We have to be careful in exegeting salvation passages properly because it is possible to have a truncated view of salvation. Salvation biblically is broader than just salvation from hell and has to be determined by context.
Most or even all of you on this blog think that the pope’s claim (that he and his Church have been given authority by God to correctly interpret Scripture) is ludicrous and so some of you ridicule him.
However, some of you do the exact same thing. Some of you read the Scriptures claiming that the Holy Spirit guides you and as a result, anyone who disagrees with you is in error.
You have made yourself like the pope by believing you are infallible, thinking that only your interpretation is the correct one, yet you refuse to recognize this fact.
I am glad that the pope is not a hypocrite. He’s not afraid to make the claim publicly that he actually believes that he and his Church have been given authority by God to interpret Scripture and I also do not see him ridiculing those who do not agree with him.
“You have made yourself like the pope by believing you are infallible, thinking that only your interpretation is the correct one, yet you refuse to recognize this fact.”
I don’t believe there is anyone on this site who believes that…we are open to correction…from the Scriptures.
SHW – “I do not want to answer any more questions on this blog since I make some people unhappy when I do.”
Ah, but that’s the nature of this blog. Someone’s always unhappy with what someone else is saying. If we all stopped talking cause someone else didn’t like what we were saying, the place would be empty.
You’re not being rude in your responses and you’re answering honestly as far as I can tell. I do agree with Grendal though that it would be nice to have a bit of a break to just get to know the person behind the scripture linking.
What else do you do with your life? Have any hobbies that don’t include Bible stuff, where’s your favorite vacation spot, who’s your favorite band, that kind of stuff…
My name is Marie. I am 55 years old and I live in AZ. I am married, but we were not blessed with children. My husband is a great guy and he works in agriculture.
I am ill with rheumatoid arthritis so I do not have a regular job, much to my disappointment. I do volunteer work when I feel well enough to do so.
Most of my hobbies are no longer possible, but I liked to skydive and I was a certified scuba diver, and I liked hiking and horseback riding, playing softball, basketball, etc.
I also liked to garden; however, now I read a lot, mostly mysteries, keep up with household chores, and I spend time with husband and friends and I also post on Catholic.com when I feel lup to it.
So, you are open to other interpretations besides your own? If so, then I would agree that you are on a faith journey, trying to grow in grace and knowledge.
You’ve got things attributed to God and also to man.
Assuming God Is…God must necessarily be preeminent to man, His creation….so…what is attributed to God in this passage:
1. God will rightly judge sin.
2. God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance.
3. On the day of wrath God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
4. God will render to each one according to their works.
5. God will give eternal life to those who obey.
6. God will mete out wrath and fury for those who disobey.
7. God shows no partiality.
8. God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
9. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.
10. His praise is not from man but from God.
SHW,
You are correct — I do not agree. The anathema says nothing about it applying only to those who believe it to be true, but still refuse. It says that anyone outside is bound for hell. It was only in recent history that your church decided that it should try to soften its image, so it tried to be more inclusive and moved away from making broad judgments about those not in the church. The problem is that they have to to try to align all those prior pronouncements about heretics with the new, friendly approach. And it has to be done without admitting any contradictions, so you have to reinterpret the old decrees, and insert words that were not originally there, or create elaborate explanations that soften the blow.
And you are bound to those interpretations — any independent assessment is irrelevant. You cannot change your position to be anything other than that which the church teaches.
I would guess that that is a comfort to you. There might be a sense of relief to some in not having to make such judgments continually. I can admire the level of faith required for such a commitment, in the face of what I see as great contradictions, but it is not “faith alone” that will save, right? 🙂
This playing field (PP) is very uneven: you are trying to use logic to sway our positions, yet you have made yourself immune to this. Any admission of error on any matter that is an official teaching of the Church will cause the entire system to collapse for you. I can admit error and move on. I can admit that I was not correctly listening to the Holy Spirit. I can accept reasonable correction from my brothers and sisters here (and benefited from that in the past).
I accept responsibility for my past errors. You, by your complete assent to and faith in the Catholic Church, will be responsible for all of the errors which it has made, and that you deny. I hope that you will escape that judgment.
According to Scripture, God desires for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, and it also states that Jesus died as a ransom for all.
So, if a person, through no fault of his own, has no opportunity given to him to learn the truth and to accept the truth and he also dies in this state of spiritual lack; in your view, is he automatically damned because of his ignorance?
Thank you for sharing your life with us. It helps us to know about you because then we will treat you with more respect and consideration. I am sorry to hear about your illness and struggles. I will pray for you and your husband in these. BTW, I too am an AZ product, growing up in northern AZ, and doing most of my college education in Phoenix.
I know you mean well, but you are telling me exactly what my Church taught in the past and what it teaches now, and frankly, this is puzzling to me. Why do you take it upon yourself to be this authority?
You were not in the Catholic Church 500 years ago, discussing with and helping the pope while he was composing his writings in order to make sure that 500 years into the future that every single person would understand accurately.
People do not agree on the interpretation of Scripture right now and they have not agreed for centuries. You think Paul meant one thing and others think he meant another thing. It is not fair to single out the pope for bashing when you really do not and cannot know what was in his mind or intention when he wrote those words.
1. Man has no excuse.
2. Man condemns himself my passing judgment on another because he practices such things himself.
3. Man will not escape judgment.
4. Man’s hard and impenitent heart stores up wrath.
5. Man will receive the judgment according to his works.
6. Those who obey God will will receive eternal life.
7. Those who do not obey the truth will receive wrath and fury.
8. Restated: Man (Jew or Greek) who does evil will receive tribulation and distress.
9. Restated: Man (Jew or Greek) who does good will receive glory and honor and peace.
10. All man who sin without the law will perish.
11. All man who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
12. (Man) The doers of the law will be justified.
13. Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
14. Gentiles show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.
15. Jewish teachers of the law teach the law yet violate the law by their actions.
16. Obeying the law is of value unless you break the law.
17. A Gentile who keeps the law will condemn a Jew who has the law but breaks the law.
18. No man is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
What is the Greatest Truth found in this passage? What necessarily MUST be true (in order of succession) for God to Be…
Better stated: Go down the list and sort it out as what necessarily MUST be True to support the premise that God Is.
If there is something that appears to violate the premise that God Is…by violating one of God’s Attributes…then it must be false…or our interpretation must be wrong…otherwise our underlying premise of our entire “Theology” is disproved.
If a truth does not violate our premise that God Is…then we need to sort in order of Greater Truth to lesser truth and work through the information in that manner.
It’s tedious…but if we want to apply man’s logos to The Logos…this is kind of how it works.
14. Gentiles show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.
********
Who judges these conflicting thoughts? God
Michael,
RE: If there are those in the community who wish to engage with you and you wish to do the same, then I’ll trust that God will keep His elect from any error.
**********
Are you implying that I am not one of God’s elect? 🙂
SHW…your assumption is that the greater truth here:
“14. Gentiles show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.”
Is the standard God uses to judge.
Is that necessarily the Greater Truth here in this passage?
We’re skipping ahead…you have to build the foundation before you can add the walls and the roof. 🙂
SHW…that’s not what I meant…I meant was there is a process and if we start answering questions before their turn in the Greater Truth process…it gets confusing and makes things more difficult.
We’ll answer that question…but it has to be in its proper order or the “house” will not be constructed properly.
God is God and therefore He judges all people: Jew, Gentile, and Christian, according to His own thoughts and His own ways regardless of how any one of the Jews, Gentiles, or Christians thinks He should judge.
Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia defines as “sin”:
Nature of sin
Since sin is a moral evil, it is necessary in the first place to determine what is meant by evil, and in particular by moral evil. Evil is defined by St. Thomas (De malo, 2:2) as a privation of form or order or due measure. In the physical order a thing is good in proportion as it possesses being. God alone is essentially being, and He alone is essentially and perfectly good. Everything else possesses but a limited being, and, in so far as it possesses being, it is good. When it has its due proportion of form and order and measure it is, in its own order and degree, good. (See GOOD.) Evil implies a deficiency in perfection, hence it cannot exist in God who is essentially and by nature good; it is found only in finite beings which, because of their origin from nothing, are subject to the privation of form or order or measure due them, and, through the opposition they encounter, are liable to an increase or decrease of the perfection they have: “for evil, in a large sense, may be described as the sum of opposition, which experience shows to exist in the universe, to the desires and needs of individuals; whence arises, among human beings at least, the suffering in which life abounds” (see EVIL).
According to the nature of the perfection which it limits, evil is metaphysical, physical, or moral. Metaphysical evil is not evil properly so called; it is but the negation of a greater good, or the limitation of finite beings by other finite beings. Physical evil deprives the subject affected by it of some natural good, and is adverse to the well-being of the subject, as pain and suffering. Moral evil is found only in intelligent beings; it deprives them of some moral good. Here we have to deal with moral evil only. This may be defined as a privation of conformity to right reason and to the law of God. Since the morality of a human act consists in its agreement or non-agreement with right reason and the eternal law, an act is good or evil in the moral order according as it involves this agreement or non-agreement. When the intelligent creature, knowing God and His law, deliberately refuses to obey, moral evil results.
Sin is nothing else than a morally bad act (St. Thomas, “De malo”, 7:3), an act not in accord with reason informed by the Divine law. God has endowed us with reason and free-will, and a sense of responsibility; He has made us subject to His law, which is known to us by the dictates of conscience, and our acts must conform with these dictates, otherwise we sin (Romans 14:23). In every sinful act two things must be considered, the substance of the act and the want of rectitude or conformity (St. Thomas, I-II:72:1). The act is something positive. The sinner intends here and now to act in some determined matter, inordinately electing that particular good in defiance of God’s law and the dictates of right reason. The deformity is not directly intended, nor is it involved in the act so far as this is physical, but in the act as coming from the will which has power over its acts and is capable of choosing this or that particular good contained within the scope of its adequate object, i.e. universal good (St. Thomas, “De malo”, Q. 3, a. 2, ad 2um). God, the first cause of all reality, is the cause of the physical act as such, the free-will of the deformity (St. Thomas I-II:89:2; “De malo”, 3:2). The evil act adequately considered has for its cause the free-will defectively electing some mutable good in place of the eternal good, God, and thus deviating from its true last end.
In every sin a privation of due order or conformity to the moral law is found, but sin is not a pure, or entire privation of all moral good (St. Thomas, “De malo”, 2:9; I-II:73:2). There is a twofold privation; one entire which leaves nothing of its opposite, as for instance, darkness which leaves no light; another, not entire, which leaves something of the good to which it is opposed, as for instance, disease which does not entirely destroy the even balance of the bodily functions necessary for health. A pure or entire privation of good could occur in a moral act only on the supposition that the will could incline to evil as such for an object. This is impossible because evil as such is not contained within the scope of the adequate object of the will, which is good. The sinner’s intention terminates at some object in which there is a participation of God’s goodness, and this object is directly intended by him. The privation of due order, or the deformity, is not directly intended, but is accepted in as much as the sinner’s desire tends to an object in which this want of conformity is involved, so that sin is not a pure privation, but a human act deprived of its due rectitude. From the defect arises the evil of the act, from the fact that it is voluntary, its imputability.
This is often why we throw verses at each other and use terms like “sin” etc. and never get anywhere…because until you really break it down…and agree on definitions and really hash out each individual item from God Is…on down…it is difficult to find Truth.
One item out of order…one item that violates the order of Greater Truth can make competing truths difficult to resolve.
There will be issues where it’s a “tie”…so to speak…because they are either equally competing truths or we just don’t know…like the Trinity.
SHW – I like myserties too! Embarrassingly enough…I like the really cheesy ones most of all. You know, the ones that are pretty much on the level of “murder she wrote” 😳
Caroline Hart and Earlene Fowler are a couple of my favorites. Totally mindless but fun way to spend a bit of time.
When I was a kid, Encylopedia Brown books were my VERY favorite. I loved those books!!!
SHW said, “I have no desire to be a theologian. 🙂 I need KISS in my own life”
I here ya…then just believe with Child-Like Faith…but make sure you believe that God Is…that Jesus Christ is the Messiah…and Salvation is through Faith in Him.
If you want to participate in traditions and do good works…fine…just don’t put your Faith in them.
Also, pray to God that you are one of the Elect and beg Him for mercy…and when you share the Gospel…make sure to tell people Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
‘You have made yourself like the pope by believing you are infallible, thinking that only your interpretation is the correct one, yet you refuse to recognize this fact.’
Wrong. No one has done that. Here’s a suggestion: Put up or shut up.
‘I am glad that the pope is not a hypocrite. He’s not afraid to make the claim publicly that he actually believes that he and his Church have been given authority by God to interpret Scripture and I also do not see him ridiculing those who do not agree with him.’
It’s a virtue to not be hypocritical.
And Sincerity is a virtue — but truth much more so.
No, the Popes through history haven’t ridiculed those they’ve disagreed with.
They’ve had them murdered.– millions, in truth.
Would’ve been infinitely better if they could have just taken some ribbing! IMHO, they have a lot of ‘splainin’ to do come the Final Day.
I like “Murder She Wrote” mysteries, also. A good escape, plus I can figure out “who done it.” I’ve read C. Hart, but not E. Fowler. I will check her out. Thanks. I must be way too old for Encyclopedia Brown; I’ve never heard of this person.
Confession: I am reading “The Cat Who” series right now. How is that for cheesy?
I have found out from recent experience that people on this blog are not interested in things like Catholic definitions, etc., so I do not think that this blog is the best venue to discuss it. 🙂 You will be welcome at catholic.com if you’d like to pursue this type of study.
Also, I do not have the heart for learning every little detail because it reminds me of the Pharisees.
What is important to me is “Am I serving God to the best of my ability?” I want always to be able to say “yes” when I ask this question each night before I go to sleep.
If you’d like to discuss general topics regarding faith like the questions that I just asked you, then I would be happy to dialogue with you. 🙂
I see a double standard. It was horrible for Catholics to kill Protestants, but it was okay for Protestants to kill Catholics.
Actually, PBS who is no friend of the Catholic Church, did an investigative documentary on the Inquisitions, etc. a while back and they came up with about 12,000 – 13,000 (I cannot remember the “exact” number) total people killed by the Catholic Church, which is 12,000 to 15,000 too many. However, I cannot remember ever seeing a documentary on the Protestant “inquisition.” So much misinformation out there such as Fox’s Book of Martyrs. It is a shame.
I know you’re trying to make me admit I’m a pope who is as guilty of the same things I’m accusing the Popes of. But I was given the capacity to make judgments, and abdication of that power is a denial of the responsibility that God has given me. I am responsible for the things I believe. I don’t have an excuse in saying, “I trusted so-and-so to think for me.”
Things are written down to communicate information. It’s only because of a written record that we can reconstruct what was intended by an author, even if imperfectly. That’s true whether it’s the Bible, a Papal encyclical, a love letter or a sudoku puzzle.
I don’t trust the government to tell me what the Constitution means. I don’t trust Chysler to tell me what my warranty agreement means. I don’t trust the Watchtower Society to tell me what was “really meant” by their failed prophecies. I don’t trust Kwame Kilpatrick to explain to me the content of the text messages he sent to his girlfriend.
I don’t trust Luther, Calvin, Chuck Smith or the Phoenix Preacher to tell me what the Bible means. I consider their research and reasoning, and evaluate it.
And I certainly don’t trust the Catholic Church to explain its own historical documents to me. Their denials about their own history are evident enough to me.
An objective reading of the text, in consideration of relevant context, is necessary to determine the intent of the author. I am capable of that. So are you.
This is another example of how the subjects of the Catholic Church are not only dependent on her for interpretation of the Bible, but also of any historical document, event, or tradition. The Church does not allow its adherents to evaluate its stance on anything. It’s all or nothing.
If I make mistakes, I (or someone near me) bear the consequences. If the Catholic Church makes, you bear the consequences, and the whole thing continues to be perpetuated for generations…
In the Garden, when things were good, Adam was given the task of naming the animals. He didn’t defer to God, he accepted the task. He had to make judgments and classify the animals. “Is his one like that one, or is it distinct?” Making judgments is a God-given task.
You claim that the Catholic Church has lied about her history. When making accusations like that, a person needs incontrovertible proof that the accusation is a just one.
People don’t always understand what they read. What one person thinks another person meant is not necessarily what the first person meant at all.
Christians cannot even agree on Scripture interpretation so as a result some are teaching error and some are teaching truth yet the ones teaching error still always believe that they are teaching the absolute truth and some of these even think that the others are going to hell for thinking differently than they.
I don’t have a clue how any of us will measure up on Judgment Day and so I am certainly not going to condemn persons because they believe differently than I do. I hope to see them all in heaven, including me. 🙂
When I was a kid, it was Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys.
Now, they are updated and “back again,” but they were best the first time around. I also do not like remakes of movies. Have they run out of ideas? I think it boils down to the $ factor and that is why they do remakes. What do you think?
SHW,
Pope Honorius. He was clearly excommunicated for promulgating heresy, yet today they will try to explain it away by saying it was merely his private opinion he was condemned for, or that his error was not speaking up for the truth. The record is plain, for those who look up the source documents. It’s not my interpretation — the Church condemned its own leader.
But I can’t prove it to you, since you already are committed to the Church’s position on the matter.
I looked up some source documents on him. It looks like the mutual agreement about him is that he neglected to stop the spread of a heresy, which to me is a just reason to get excommunicated. As for the rest, I will leave it up to God’s judgment since there is no concrete agreement on the rest of the details.
Sorry, I’m not letting you off on this one. It far was more than “Neglect.” Pope Leo II later wrote “that he anathematised Honorius because he ‘endeavoured by profane treason to overthrow the immaculate faith of the Roman Church.’” http://www.romancatholicism.org/honorius-heresy.htm
He subverted the the faith with his “profana proditione.”
This decimates the doctrine of infallibility… unless you ascribe to the doctrine of infallibility…
“14. Gentiles show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.”
Your questions/comments:
“Who judges these conflicting thoughts of the Gentiles? God”
Yes.
“What standard does He use to judge these Gentiles?
Is it the same standard that He uses for Believe and SHW?”
Yes.
“God is God and therefore He judges all people: Jew, Gentile, and Christian, according to His own thoughts and His own ways regardless of how any one of the Jews, Gentiles, or Christians thinks He should judge.”
What are “according to His own thoughts and His own ways”?
Here is the Catholic Position on Divine Judgment:
Divine judgment subjectively and objectively considered
Divine judgment (judicium divinum), as an immanent act of God, denotes the action of God’s retributive justice by which the destiny of rational creatures is decided according to their merits and demerits. This includes:
* God’s knowledge of the moral worth of the acts of free creatures (scientia approbationis et reprobationis), and His decree determining the just consequences of such acts;
* the Divine verdict upon a creature amenable to the moral law, and the execution of this sentence by way of reward and punishment.
It is clear, of course, that the judgment, as it is in God, cannot be a process of distinct and successive acts; it is a single eternal act identical with the Divine Essence. But the effects of the judgment, since they take place in creatures, follow the sequence of time. The Divine judgment is manifested and fulfilled at the beginning, during the progress, and at the end of time. In the beginning, God pronounced judgment upon the whole race, as a consequence of the fall of its representatives, the first parents (Genesis 3). Death and the infirmities and miseries of this were the consequences of that original sentence. Besides this common judgment there have been special judgments on particular individuals and peoples. Such great catastrophes as the flood (Genesis 6:5), the destruction of Sodom (Genesis 28:20), the earthquake that swallowed up Core and his followers (Numbers 16:30), the plagues of Egypt (Exodus 6:6; 12:12), and the evil that came upon other oppressors of Israel (Ezekiel 25:11; 28:22) are represented in the Bible as Divine judgments. The fear of God is such a fundamental idea in the Old Testament that it insists mainly on the punitive aspect of the judgment (cf. Proverbs 11:31; Ezekiel 14:21). An erroneous view of these truths led many of the rabbis to teach that all the evil which befalls man is a special chastisement from on high, a doctrine which was declared false by Christ.
There is also a judgment of God in the world that is subjective. By his acts man adheres to or deviates from the law of God, and thereby places himself within the sphere of approval or condemnation. In a sense, then, each individual exercises judgment on himself. Hence it is declared that Christ came not to judge but to save (John 3:17; 8:15; 12:47). The internal judgment proceeds according to a man’s attitude: towards Christ (John 3:18). Though all the happenings of life cannot be interpreted as the outcome of Divine judgment, whose external manifestation is therefore intermittent, the subjective judgment is coextensive with the life of the individual and of the race. The judgment at the end of time will complement the previous visitations of Divine retribution and will manifest the final result of the daily secret judgment. By its sentence the eternal destiny of creatures will be decided. As there is a twofold end of time, so there is likewise a twofold eternal judgment: the particular judgment, at the hour of death, which is the end of time for the individual, and the general judgment, at the final epoch of the world’s existence, which is the end of time for the human race.
SHW,
Will you agree with the councils that Honorius subverted the faith and confirmed heresy, or deny the councils, saying he me merely was a private heretic, or will you refuse to make a judgment?
Will your commitment to truth allow for the possibility that the doctrine of papal infallibility could be incorrect?
Catholic “General”Judgment (as opposed to Particular Judgment):
Those to be judged
All men, both good and bad, according to the Athanasian Creed, will appear in the judgment to give an account of their deeds. As to children that have personally done neither good nor evil, the baptized must be distinguished from the unbaptized. The former appear in the judgment, not to be judged, but only to hold the glory of Christ (Supplement 80:5), while the latter, ranked with the wicked, although not judged, will be enabled to realize the justice of their eternal loss (Suarez). The angels and the demons will not be judged directly, since their eternal destiny has already been fixed; yet, because they have exercised a certain influence over the fortunes of men, the sentence pronounced on the latter will have a corresponding effect on them also (Supplement 89:8).
Object of the judgment
The judgment will embrace all works, good or bad, forgiven as well as unforgiven sins, every idle word (Matthew 12:36), every secret thought (1 Corinthians 4:5). With the exception of Peter Lombard, theologians teach that even the secret sins of the just will be made manifest, in order that judgment may be made complete and that the justice and mercy of God may be glorified. This will not pain or embarrass the saints, but add to their glory, just as the repentance of St. Peter and St. Mary Magdalen is to these saints a source of joy and honour.
Form of the judgment
The procedure of the judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46, and in the Apocalypse 20:12. Commentators see in those passages allegorical descriptions intended to convey in a vivid manner the fact that in the last judgment the conduct and deserts of each individual will be made plain not only to his own conscience but to the knowledge of the assembled world. It is probable that no words will be spoken in the judgment, but that in one instant, through a Divine illumination, each creature will thoroughly understand his own moral condition and that of every fellow creature (Romans 2:15). Many believe, however, that the words of the sentence: “Come, ye blessed”, etc. and “Depart from me”, etc. will be really addressed by Christ to the multitude of the saved and the lost.
Results of the general judgment
With the fulfilment of the sentence pronounced in the last judgment the relations and the dealings of the Creator with the creature find their culmination, are explained and justified. The Divine purpose being accomplished, the human race will, as a consequence, attain its final destiny. The reign of Christ over mankind will be the sequel of the General Judgment.
I am not sure exactly what the infallibility doctrine is other than His Church cannot teach error. I do not know the subtleties of this doctrine nor have I studied it so I can’t answer your question with the precision that you would like me to. However, I can assure you that if I find that it is not what I believe, then I would not adhere to it.
If I thought that God was telling me to change churches, I would definitely do it even if it was to one that I had originally thought was in error. Would you do the same?
I’ve read other explanations about the judgment also and they do not match this one. Confusing to say the least. I don’t know if there has been a formal ruling on this or not. I refrain from studying this type of legalism because it is too detailed and so is confusing for me and I also do not consider it necessary for me to know in order to be saved.
I think that God will surprise a lot of us on Judgment Day since He knows the secrets of all hearts and He will judge them justly. Perhaps His judgment will not be according to our way of thinking and understanding. Exodus 33:19
I’ve enjoyed dialoguing with you. God bless you. I am not feeling well so I probably will stop posting. You can always email me questions if I do not come back here. I will get them answered even if it takes me a few days to do so.
Yes, God is a God of truth and non-contradiction, so if any of my thinking or beliefs were in error, I would have to abandon them, regardless of how long I had held them.
all i can offer here is WOW! I am amazed at the discussion/comments and i am by some considered an (over) educated person (lots of alphabet letters after my name, my Phd, aka ‘piling it higher and deeper’, hangs over one of my commodes)
i function on a few things to get through my day to day SSDD…
1. saved by grace: by NO action of my own other than acceptance and confession, SALVATION which i am humbly and eternally grateful for…perfect love casts out fear, fear is not of love i grew up and was raised w every breath of my life in FEAR in the ‘perfect’ home,being as near as i could be the ‘perfect’ child,student you list it
2. Centorian, Michael, Dread, Sarah et el you all must live in Oakhurst,CA which is God’s country as you all identify as your residence 🙂
We know that Jesus promised to give (approve) the crown of eternal life to persons who love HIm, so how can we know for sure that we really do love Him so that we may be assured that we will receive this crown after we die? James 1:12
I said in an earlier post that perhaps the demons exert influence over our weather and natural world so that earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc. harm us. This idea was ridiculed. Why do you think that this is impossible?
RE: I reject the idea that says we must pass an “obedience test” (as you put it) to enter Heaven.
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10:12-13 of Romans “For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Here, Paul is repeating the prophecy of 2:22 in Joel and he is explaining that this prophecy has now come to pass.
“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” However, Mark states in 16:16 that you must believe and be baptized in order to be saved.
Since we know that both of these are the Word of God, then both of these are true. So now we know that we must call on the name of the Lord, believe, and also be baptized in order to be saved.
Now, if we look at 7:21-23 in Matthew, we see that Jesus states that not all persons who call on His name will be saved. Why not? Jesus tells us why:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'”
These persons called on the name of the Lord, but He still did not grant them entrance (He did not approve of them so He did not let them enter into eternal life). Why didn’t He allow them in even though they were calling upon His Name?
He did not let them in because they denied Him by their disobedience to His commandments and this is explained in 1:16 of Titus.
So, a more complete picture of Christ’s gospel is this:
We must call on the name of the Lord, believe and be baptized, do the will of the Father in heaven and also we must not be disobedient to Him if we desire to enter into eternal life after we die.
SHW,
““Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” However, Mark states in 16:16 that you must believe and be baptized in order to be saved. ”
Even though I believe in infant, and believer’s baptism, I don’t use Mark 16:16.
You do realize that these are disputed verses? (Mark 16:9-20)
“So, a more complete picture of Christ’s gospel is this:
We must call on the name of the Lord, believe and be baptized, do the will of the Father in heaven and also we must not be disobedient to Him if we desire to enter into eternal life after we die.”
We’re getting really close to some good Truth here…
Question: Does man through his “Free Will, which is for good” according to Catholic Theology, have the capacity to “do” all of this and save himself?
Better stated: If confronted with a choice to do Good or Evil…and if man’s “Free Will, which is for good”…was pure…pre-sin…would man make the choice for Evil?
And better stated: Why is it that if man’s “Free Will, which is for good”…man often chooses Evil?
Another critical issue…can man do anything to save himself?
We can believe, be baptized, do all the things on the list…does that necessarily guarantee Salvation…because we did something?
Or rather, is Salvation a supernatural event…does God Regenerate someone because they do all of those things…or does one do all of those things because they have been Regenerated?
Too deep for me! But, I do know this: Exodus 33:19
God had mercy on Rahab, the Gentile. As a result of her obedience to His prompting to do good, she and her family were saved. 2:25 of James
We cannot be possibly be saved apart from Christ. He is the Vine and we are the branches as stated in 15:4-9 of John.
RE: And better stated: Why is it that if man’s “Free Will, which is for good”…man often chooses Evil?
Man often chooses evil because man prefers to serve himself rather than to serve God. He loves himself more than God. Man has made an idol of himself. He has put himself before God. Exodus 20:3 Man would rather live in the flesh rather than in the Holy Spirit.
If man truly loved God, then he would do God’s will (good works) which God had prepared for him as stated in 2:10 of Ephesians.
Better stated…can man do all the things on the list…have a “good heart”….jump through all the hoops…on his own?
The angels didn’t require a Savior…one third fell…but two-thirds didn’t. They are “sons of God”…they supposedly have “free will” according to Catholic Theology.
RE: Another critical issue…can man do anything to save himself?
He can “help” save himself, but this means that he is choosing to stay in the state of grace which he received from God alone. He chooses to obey God’s commandments and this is why he continues to remain in the state of grace.
One example: 1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
Two more: 2:15 of 1 Timothy and 4:8 of 1 Peter. Good works are equated with love. Love fulfills the royal law.
Can God be Sovereign and man still have “free will” in connection to this verse…meaning…can man “choose” against God if the Father has chosen him?
No. Man cannot have “free will” in the manner that Catholic Theology states for this Truth to be true.
“But what about man’s will? Man can believe and be saved and do all these things and obey, etc etc and is guaranteed heaven.”
John 3:16″For(AA) God so loved(AB) the world,[i](AC) that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not(AD) perish but have eternal life. 17For(AE) God did not send his Son into the world(AF) to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18(AG) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not(AH) believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19(AI) And this is the judgment:(AJ) the light has come into the world, and(AK) people loved the darkness rather than the light because(AL) their works were evil. 20(AM) For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light,(AN) lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever(AO) does what is true(AP) comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
That “whoever believes in Him…”
Does that necessarily mean that you are guaranteed if you profess belief and do all the things on the list and follow all the requirements…that you are necessarily guaranteed to go to heaven?
Or, rather, could it mean…in the context that only God Regenerates His Chosen…that they are the only ones capable of True Belief in Jesus Christ the Son of God…and have been given the ability to believe and do all the things on the list because of the work of Jesus Christ and the empowering of the Holy Spirit.
The John three passage can only be true and not in conflict with the other passage if one takes the interpretation of the second example.
SHW said, ““Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.””
Can this still be true in the context that God Regenerates His chosen?
Yes, it can. It can be interpreted as an instruction to the Elect to continue in the doctrine.
The comment about “you will save both yourself and those who hear you”:
If the interpretation that this is a proof text for Salvation and that man “saves himself”…then that unravels the entire Word…it negates God’s Sovereignty and His preeminence to His creation…and thus cannot be true.
If the interpretation is that this means, in the context that God has Regenerated His chosen…and empowers them to do all the things in the doctrine…and that they will naturally do it…if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck…it’s Chosen…then this can be true and not contradict the Greater Truth.
God’s chosen still require instruction and are still called to obey. God is Sovereign and Man is Responsible can both be True in the context that God does the complete work…man is Regenerated by God through Faith…and then is transformed into a New Creation and then naturally does the “list”….
Antinomianism doesn’t disprove God’s Sovereignty…it merely proves those who fall into that mindset weren’t His chosen after all.
For the Bible to be “true”…from a man’s logos perspective…God must be Sovereign and His Chosen must be Supernaturally Regenerated by God (through hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ)…and then they “believe” and do the “list”…naturally…as a New Creation.
If man has “free will” and “save’s himself”…then it disproves God Is and renders the Bible illogical.
We know that Jesus promised to give (approve) the crown of eternal life to persons who love Him, so how can we know for sure that we really do love Him so that we may be assured that we will receive this crown after we die? (1:12 of James)
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“Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”
Jesus has promised eternal life to the people who love Him. “Love” is the requirement necessary in order to receive the crown of eternal life. (13:13 of 1 Corinthians)
What type of “love” for God is required in order for us to be approved to receive the crown of life when we die?
Jesus tells us in (14:23-24 of John): “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him…..Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.” (1:20-23 of Jude)
“Obedience” to His commandments “proves” that we “love” Him. “Obedience” is the type of “love” that is required in order for us to inherit eternal life.
What does Jesus say about people who claim to know/love Him, but they do not also obey/keep His commandments?
In (2:3-5 of 1 John), Jesus states: “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.”
Jesus states that the people who truly know Him and love Him are the exact same people who obey His commandments.
Jesus states that the people who claim that they know (or love) Him, but who do not also keep/obey His commandments (as proof of their love for Him), are LIARS.
Jesus calls them liars!
People who do not keep/obey His commandments are people who do not love Him! They are Liars.
“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.” (5:3 of 1 John)
Jesus also explains plainly to us what happens to these liars when they die:
“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (21:8 Revelation)
All of these lying people are thrown into the lake of fire for eternity.
And, this is why, when these “Christians” call out “Lord, Lord” on Judgment Day, He will not know them and He will not let them enter into heaven.
(7:20-23 Matthew) “Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4
“You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” (2:24 James)
Since God desires for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all, then He makes it possible for all of them to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:3-6
Are all of them saved? No.
Why not?
Because they use their own free wills to choose to disobey Him. God saves only the people who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 1:8
“We know that Jesus promised to give (approve) the crown of eternal life to persons who love Him, so how can we know for sure that we really do love Him so that we may be assured that we will receive this crown after we die? (1:12 of James)”
How can “we” do all the stuff and love Him from our “free will” and “save ourselves”?
Logically, if God Is…we cannot have “free will” and “save ourselves” and God still be Sovereign. There are competing Truths. We have to go with the Greater Truth.
All of the verses you listed can still be true…even if God Regenerates His chosen…and man doesn’t have “free will” and “save himself”…the million verses give instruction to the Elect…the Chosen…of what to do…and God has transformed them and empowered them with the Holy Spirit…and the “know” Him…so they do the list.
If man has “free will” and “saves himself”…it renders a long list of Scripture untrue…there is no way to resolve the competing truths and have God remain preeminent to man.
How does one know they are Saved? It is an innate peace that one has….and also read your long list 🙂
See the difference? Your long list is merely instruction and validation of the supernatural miracle that occurred when God Regenerated you and empowered you with the Holy Spirit and you became a New Creation.
Your long list is not a “to-do” list to “save yourself”…it is God who has “saved you” and transformed you into a “New Creation” and is an instruction manual so you know how to operate your new “you”…
1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man [1] Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
Who is “God our Savior”…it is Jesus Christ…Jesus is God…our Savior. The Father is not our Savior…it is Jesus. The Holy Spirit is not our Savior it is Jesus. The Three are God.
The Father does the giving to the Son…”all that the Father gives Me…”
God the Father gives the Son the Chosen, the Elect…and Jesus promises that He will not cast them out and will keep them.
Christ is a ransom for all and only the Elect and Chosen have the ability to believe and have Faith that is saving Faith because they have been Regenerated by God…man is incapable of Regenerating himself. Regeneration…being Born Again…becoming a New Creation…is supernatural and and act done by God…just as God created Adam.
That is the only interpretation that is logical and keeps God as Sovereign and can still be true.
Your interpretation makes many verses in Scripture untrue…and makes God’s Will subservient to man’s will…so we have to go with the interpretation that fits the Greater Truth…and can still be true.
Remember the riddle:
What is greater than God (only one option here for the riddle to be true)
More evil than the devil (only one option here for the riddle to be true)
The poor have it (lots of options here that can answer this question and be true without violating the greater truth)
The rich need it (lots of options here that can answer this question and be true without violating the greater truth)
And if you eat it, you’ll die? (lots of options here that can answer this question and be true without violating the greater truth)
When you have conflicting interpretations…which of the various interpretations submit to the Greater Truth found elsewhere in Scripture…and can still be true. There is your answer.
What is greater than God (only one option here for the riddle to be true)
More evil than the devil (only one option here for the riddle to be true)
The poor have it (lots of options here that can answer this question and be true in answering this question…however only one answer that doesn’t violate the greater truth)
The rich need it (lots of options here that can answer this question and be true in answering this question…however only one answer that doesn’t violate the greater truth)
And if you eat it, you’ll die? (lots of options here that can answer this question and be true in answering this question…however only one answer that doesn’t violate the greater truth)
….and of course, the one answer that is correct that doesn’t violate the Greater Truth…yet still answers all the questions correctly is…”nothing”.
You asked if works/fruits are necessary in order to inherit eternal life.
Jesus gives us an example:
12-14 Mark “Now the next day, when they had come out from Bethany, He was hungry. 13 And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. 14 In response Jesus said to it, “Let no one eat fruit from you ever again.” And His disciples heard it.”
Finding no fruit, He cursed the fig tree. What happens to the tree?
20 Now in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. 21 And Peter, remembering, said to Him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree which You cursed has withered away.” 20-21 Mark
7:19 Matthew “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
What happens to this dead tree? It is thrown into the fire to be destroyed. James 2:20
However, since God desires for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus came as a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:3-7, He also keeps calling them until the moment they die, hoping that they will repent. 2 Peter 3:9
“He also spoke this parable: ‘A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8 But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’” 13:5-9 Luke
SHW…using Parables as proof text is flimsy. Parables are intentionally the way they are. Read what Scripture says:
Matthew 13:
The Purpose of the Parables
10Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11And he answered them, (J) “To you it has been given to know(K) the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12(L) For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not,(M) even what he has will be taken away. 13This is why I speak to them in parables, because(N) seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear,(O) nor do they understand. 14Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
(P) “‘You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
15For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears(Q) they can barely hear,
and(R) their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and(S) understand with their heart
and(T) turn, and I would heal them.’
16But(U) blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17(V) For truly, I say to you,(W) many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
SHW…did you ever consider and think on the Trinity?
Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away. 36″But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.”
What is the interpretation that doesn’t violate the Greater Truth…that can still be true from Scripture and not make untrue a big chunk of verses regarding God’s Sovereignty?
Re-read 1 Timothy two three through seven (and the entire chapter for that matter) and re-read 2 Peter three nine (and the entire chapter for that matter).
Ask yourself these questions:
Who is Jesus? He is God.
Is He distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit…yet is still God?
Who is God the Father? He is God.
Is God the Father distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit?
The Trinity…as I mentioned earlier in our conversation…is impossible for us to understand. What we can understand is that God Is.
It is not the Bible that is untrue…it is our limited ability to understand complex spiritual realities like the concept of Eternity vs. finite time…Physical Realm vs. Spiritual Realm…and the Trinity…that make it very difficult for us to comprehend Absolute Truth.
RE: Calvin was a man of the book and a man of history…in my opinion what is today called “his” theology was Pauls theology and Christs theology.
The Romanists hated him because he could quote the church fathers against them…from memory.
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The early church fathers could think and teach whatever they wanted to think and teach until and unless they found out later that it contradicted promulgated doctrine. If their earlier thoughts and preaching did not match promulgated doctrine, then they had to refrain from teaching their earlier beliefs. How was doctrine determined? At Church Councils.
An example is given in Scripture: Circumcision.
Some thought “yes” Christians should be circumcised and some thought “no” they should not. This first council in Jerusalem, with Peter officiating, decided “no.”
James, bishop of Jerusalem, then immediately tells his own flock this binding promulgated decision because he is the head of the local church in Jerusalem and so it is his job to do this. After this council in Jerusalem, everyone in the whole Church had to adhere to the decision. The subject was closed.
Paul was not at this council:
16:3 of Acts: “Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek.”
There are two men named Cephas. There was the Apostle called Peter (or Simon or Simon Peter or Cephas), and the other Cephas who was one of the 70 disciples. Paul mentions both of them in Galatians. (It is translated incorrectly in the KJV and others.) The original Greek is translated correctly in the RSV:
RSV
2:7-14 of Galatians “but on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised [8] (for he who worked through Peter for the mission to the circumcised worked through me also for the Gentiles), [9] and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and
they to the circumcised; ……[11] But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
Latin:
Latin Vulgate Gal 2:7-14 “ sed e contra cum vidissent quod creditum est mihi evangelium praeputii sicut Petro circumcisionis Gal 2:8 qui enim operatus est Petro in apostolatum circumcisionis operatus est et mihi inter gentes Gal 2:9 et cum cognovissent gratiam quae data est mihi Iacobus et Cephas et Iohannes qui videbantur columnae esse dextras dederunt mihi et Barnabae societatis ut nos in gentes ipsi autem in circumcisionem……Gal 2:11 cum autem venisset Cephas Antiochiam in faciem ei
restiti quia reprehensibilis erat Gal 2:12 prius enim quam venirent quidam ab Iacobo cum gentibus edebat cum autem venissent subtrahebat et segregabat se timens eos qui ex circumcisione erant Gal 2:13 et simulationi eius consenserunt ceteri Iudaei ita ut et Barnabas duceretur ab eis in illa simulatione Gal 2:14 sed cum vidissem quod non recte ambularent ad veritatem evangelii dixi 2 Cephae coram omnibus si tu cum Iudaeus sis gentiliter et non iudaice vivis quomodo gentes cogis iudaizare”
Translation Note: Petro is Peter the Apostle; Cephas and Cephae are Cephas the disciple.
There were other people named James and John also within the original 70 disciples. These three names were common names in those days.
Did Peter eat with the Gentiles? Yes. Even before the council convened, he ate with them boldly and he was severely criticized for it (11:1-3 of Acts). He patiently explained why he ate with them and then that was the end of the discussion. (11:4-18 of Acts)
That is quite piece of historical and Scriptural revision.
I side with Calvin;
“This is another thunderbolt which strikes the Papacy of Rome. It exposes the impudent pretensions of the Roman Antichrist, who boasts that he is not bound to assign a reason, and sets at defiance the judgment of the whole Church. Without rashness, without undue boldness, but in the exercise of the power granted him by God, this single individual chastises Peter, in the presence of the whole Church; and Peter submissively bows to the chastisement. Nay, the whole debate on those two points was nothing less than a manifest overthrow of that tyrannical primacy, which the Romanists foolishly enough allege to be founded on divine right. If they wish to have God appearing on their side, a new Bible must be manufactured; if they do not wish to have him for an open enemy, those two chapters of the Holy Scriptures must be expunged.”
John Calvin, Calvin’s Commentaries (Complete) (trans. John King; Accordance electronic ed. Edinburgh: Calvin Translation Society, 1847), n.p.
Why is it finished? Jesus completed it (He fulfilled it).
“Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” (24:44 Luke)
(5:17-19 Matthew) “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” (31:31-32 of Jeremiah)
Jesus fulfilled every jot and every tittle of the Law of Moses and so the Old Covenant is no longer in force. He has made it obsolete. He replaced it with His better covenant. Hebrews 7:21-22
(8:13 of Hebrews) “In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” (The Old Covenant temple with its animal sacrifices is not actually destroyed until 70 A.D.)
Jesus replaced the first covenant (Old Covenant) with His New Covenant at the exact time of His death. He ratified (put into force) His New Covenant by His death. He made peace between God and man by His death on the cross. Ephesians 2:13-17
(9:16-18 of Hebrews) “For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.”
“It is finished.” Jesus finished the Old Covenant by His death on the cross. He also ratified His New Covenant by His death on the cross.
The Old Law of Moses is no longer in force. The Royal Law (of love) has taken its place.
God is sovereign. He chose to give mankind free will as a gift. Why? Because He wants people to freely choose Him to be their God. He wants to be in eternal fellowship with people who love Him for who He is (their Creator).
God created the angels. The angels who loved Him for who He is did not rebel against Him. The angels who did not love Him for who He is chose to rebel against their Creator and so they fell away from the grace in which they were created. None of the angels will ever get a second chance. They were given only one chance to prove their love for Him. Whatever choice they made is permanent.
God created Adam. Adam freely chose to disobey God. Adam fell from grace.
Since mankind was created lower than the angels and so it did not have the angels’ intellect, etc., God decided to give it another chance to spend eternity with Him.
God desires for all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all.
God is not double-minded.
Since it is God’s desire that all men be saved…., etc., He will not prevent any person from obtaining salvation if this person loves Him and works righteousness. He also will not force any person to love Him and work righteousness and thereby be saved against his own will.
Who does God save?
Acts 10:34-35 “Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”
SHW said, “God had mercy on Rahab, the Gentile. As a result of her obedience to His prompting to do good, she and her family were saved. 2:25 of James”
Or rather, God had mercy on Rahab…and the result was her obedience.
Michael,
RE: The interesting thing is that their best scholars don’t try to sell the historic revisionism…
**********
The best scholars do not always agree and perhaps more times than not, they disagree. However, in these types of things, there is no incontrovertible proof for either side. Believe what you want to. I will do the same. 🙂 God does know the truth and that is what matters because we will all find out His Truth on Judgment Day.
SHW said, “This is really enough on this subject, Okay? 🙂 ”
It’s a hard thing to let go of and realize that we are not God and that we have nothing to do with Creation or the New Creation…I know…I’ve been fighting it for a very long time…and poking at it from as many angles as my limited finite man mind can come up with.
…I’ll respond to all of your questions…for now, I have to go for awhile…and in the meantime I pray the Holy Spirit directs my answers and grants me the ability to answer according to God’s Will.
SHW…I also don’t want to give the wrong impression…
There are Wheat and Tares…and I do not assume to know who God has Regenerated and who He hasn’t. There are some who clearly are not the Chosen and Elect. They deny Christ. Those who claim Christ…I don’t know…I am not God.
Fruit can be counterfeited via man’s volition. The only works that will be counted as righteousness are those done by a person who God has supernaturally Regenerated and is saved by Belief, Repentance and Faith in Jesus Christ our Messiah.
I imagine that there are those God Regenerates from a variety of Theological positions that have Christ as their Messiah…whether or not they add a bunch of stuff to it. God will save who He saves…and His Elect will be guided by the Holy Spirit to the Truth.
I have a friend who was raised in the Mormon Church…and read the Bible along with the Book of Mormon. This person, I believe (though only God knows) has been Regenerated by God supernaturally…while reading the Gospel of Jesus Christ in their Bible…even though all the other “stuff” was piled on around them. This person ended up leaving the Mormon Church as God revealed more of Himself to them…and as the Holy Spirit directed this New Creation to a different place.
SHW said, “God had mercy on Rahab, the Gentile. As a result of her obedience to His prompting to do good, she and her family were saved. 2:25 of James”
Or rather, God had mercy on Rahab…and the result was her obedience.
***********
Merciful God gave Rahab two choices. She chose to obey Him, rather than to disobey Him, and so she then hid the two messengers sent by Joshua and as a result of her own free will choice to obey God, she was rewarded with life for herself and her father’s household. Her family was thus spared from slaughter.
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Hey, all I wanted to do on this forum was to give an actual Catholic’s opinion on some things. Many Protestants insist that Catholics believe in a “works-based” or “works only” salvation rather than a “faith only” salvation which the Protestants believe in.
We Catholics believe in a “faith plus works” salvation (faith working through love) and anyone who claims we believe otherwise is distorting what we believe and this cannot be pleasing to God. Disagree with what we really believe, not your false notion of what we believe.
I will be happy to give my idea of what a specific Scripture passage means (and why) if anyone should ask me, and I will also be happy to listen to your idea (and why) of what a specific Scripture passage means. No arguing though, okay? It is best to agree to disagree in Christian charity toward each other rather than to argue. Share ideas, but not tempers. 🙂
I am not qualified to answer your questions and I never will be. It is not God’s purpose for me to know the answers to such “deep” questions!
(2:8-9 of Ephesians) “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
God saved me by His grace alone. I accepted His grace when my parents chose to have me baptized when I was eleven days old. Now, as a result of His grace and mercy, I am required by God to do His will (remain in His grace) until I die if I desire to enter into eternal life with Him. Romans 12:1
My purpose was decided by God before the foundation of the world and this is what God commanded of me:
(2:10 of Ephesians) “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
I must do the works which He prepared (His will) for me to do if I desire to enter into eternal life. Matthew 7:21-23
You are hitting on something vitally important here…our obedience is in grateful response to the grace we have been given, not a fearful obeisance to a harsh authority.
SHW…I really like you. 🙂 Please stay a part of the PP family. We can discuss and not argue 🙂
“I must do the works which He prepared (His will) for me to do if I desire to enter into eternal life. Matthew 7:21-23”
My position is rather, I will enter in to eternal life because I am a New Creation who God has Regenerated by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ…which He has given me…I will do His Will because I am a New Creation…I am not a New Creation because I “do” His Will.
We cannot “create” ourselves.
We can agree to disagree…and one day we will find out for sure 🙂 …and only God knows who His Chosen…His Elect are…not me.
Sometimes I almost start to agree with SHW and then a twist is entered in and I can’t.
I believe, with my whole heart, that God chose the RCC church to do His work. Because of the world wide Roman conquests and after-wards, the domination of the Holy Roman Church, God took His very words to the entire world to read and hear about His grace and compassion. It is no wonder Paul wanted so desperately to get to Rome and preach the Gospel there.
However, even a cursory scan of the history of the RCC church reveals a politically corrupt, perverse and wicked leadership. Men who stood behind the mantle of “holiness” and dominated people for their own personal gain. Too often in violation of the very scriptures they claimed to hold soul authority over to interpret to a hurting world.
But, what about such and such? She/he was an absolute saint who wouldn’t/won’t lift a finger of hate or aggression to anyone or anything! Every organization from Buddhist to Watchtower has such fine and admirable people, why even atheist have people who would embarrass the average church goer by their qualities. But these do not, nor will ever excuse the excesses of false teachers, prophets and leaders who use their power to subjugate others for their own personal desires.
I will never submit to the doctrines of these men nor the organizations they represent. Yes I feel strongly about the RCC.
SHW, to put a tag end on this… as you have righteously tooted your opinions of the one true church according to your in depth knowledge of traditional Catholicism or some such… i have grown weary following them (gave up half way thru this thread)
as i type i am aware of a late middle-aged woman (Protestant) whose husband has left her and taken up with a younger devout R.C. woman – she is instructing the man’s son in your faith. He’s learning to say the Rosary and that Jesus is a Saint among Saints (we’re not, of course). She’s a good and holy, devout woman who won’t sleep with the boy’s father until he’s divorced from the boy’s mother and free to marry in the church, which, of course he will be free to do, since only the sanctified marriages (by the church) count with God… legalism! but she is playing by your rules…
People can say that they are Christian or Catholic or Lutheran or whatever they choose to call themselves. This is a free country. We do not have laws preventing people from calling themselves whatever they want to call themselves.
Many Catholics will continue to call themselves Catholic until the day they die (because of their baptism in the Catholic Church) and they do this even though they have not set a foot in any church, Catholic or otherwise, for 50 years. Are these persons living a Catholic life? No.
Many Catholics and this is due to their own bad actions, are denying the faith that they say they believe in. God judges and knows who is abiding in Him and He also knows who is not.
The things that you see bad Catholics doing is not what my faith teaches us to do. They call themselves Catholic, but they are liars. They are disgusting bad Catholics who do not follow their religion and they cause great scandal. They pick and choose what they want to believe in within the Catholic religion (if anything at all!) and then they do just whatever they want to do. They do not really care about what the Church teaches or how much they are displeasing God.
(1:16 of Titus) “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.” (1 John 2:4-6)
These so-called Catholics are fooling themselves and apparently also many others (including non-Catholics) since you believe that what they do is actually what my Church teaches them to do!
What does St. Paul say to do about these evil “brethren?” I agree with him!
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 “I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”
So, I do not spend any time with bad Catholics unless I have to.
RE: You are hitting on something vitally important here…our obedience is in grateful response to the grace we have been given, not a fearful obeisance to a harsh authority.
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(Romans 12:1-2) It is reasonable for God to demand obedience from us since His Son humbled Himself in order to redeem us from Adam’s sin as His kindness to us. The kindness of God is His grace. (2:7 of Ephesians) We must continue in this kindness (grace) if we desire to enter into eternal life when we die.
“Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.” (11:22 of Romans)
(1:16-18 of 1 Peter) “because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”
This is why Paul states: “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;” (2:12 of Philippians)
Unbelief.
What is it? What or who is an unbeliever?
(5:8 of 1Timothy) “But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.” (2:20 of 2 Peter)
An unbeliever is a person who has denied the faith. We know that some unbelievers are people who never believed in Christ (or God) at any point in time. But, how does a person who is a believer deny the faith and thereby become an unbeliever as a result of this denial of faith?
We have a good example in Scripture:
The writer of Hebrews warns us that we must remain faithful to God’s commands if we desire to enter into eternal life or else we will end up like the Israelites. The Israelites who fled from Egypt were made to wander in the desert for 40 years until that generation all died. That generation was not allowed to enter into the Promised Land because they adored the golden calf and this is called the sin of idolatry.
Moses, who did not adore the golden calf, also was not allowed to enter into the Promised Land although he was allowed to gaze at it from a distance shortly before he died. Why was Moses not allowed to enter? Disobedience. (34:4-5 of Deuteronomy)
Moses disobeyed God when he struck the rock twice instead of speaking to it as God ordered Him to do and so as a result of His disobedience, he was not allowed to enter into the Promised Land. (20:7-12 of Numbers) God said that Moses disobeyed Him because he did not believe Him. Moses denied the “power of God” when He disobeyed Him. (3:2-7 of 2 Timothy)
If you believe God, then you will choose to obey Him! If you do not believe God, then you will choose to disobey Him. Obedience is belief and disobedience is unbelief.
(3:7-19 of Hebrews) “Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:
“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Belief is equated with obedience. Unbelief is equated with disobedience.
(13:43 of Acts) “Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.”
If you believe God, then you will choose to obey Him! If you do not believe God, then you will choose to disobey Him. Obedience is belief and disobedience is unbelief.
If we desire to enter into eternal life, then we must obey God’s commands. We deny the faith when we disobey God. (1:16 of Titus) (5:3-7 of Ephesians)
(6:7 of Galatians) “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.”
God freed us from our sins when we were baptized. We (our souls) were washed, sanctified, and justified through baptism. (1 Corinthians 6:11) Baptism spiritually regenerated us (we became holy, 3:5 of Titus) and because of our holiness we became sons of God. (4:6 of Galatians) Because we are sons of God, we now have hope of entering into eternal life when we die. (3:7 of Titus) Hope is not a guarantee.
So now that we have become God’s children through baptism, we must continue to sow our fruit to holiness if we desire to enter into eternal life.
(6:22 of Romans) “But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.”
(6:8 of Galatians) “For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.” (7:19-24 of Matthew)
(8:34 of John) “Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.”
(1:10 of 1 John) “If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.”
We all sin, so will any of us enter into eternal life? Yes. (13:23-28 of Luke)
(6:16 of Romans) “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?”
(5:16-17 of 1 John) “If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. ….…. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.”
If a person sins “sin not leading to death after baptism,” he grieves the Holy Spirit, but not to the point where the Holy Spirit is insulted and so He continues to abide in your soul. Since He is still present within your soul even though you have sinned, you still retain the sanctifying grace (Holy Spirit’s presence) within your soul. (4:29-32 of Ephesians) It is the Holy Spirit’s presence within your soul which guarantees you eternal life. If He is still abiding within your soul at the exact time of your death, then you are guaranteed to enter into eternal life after the last judgment. (5:5 of 2 Corinthians)
“Sin leading to death” grievously insults the Holy Spirit and as a consequence of this insult, He leaves your soul. Without Him (your guarantee) living within your soul at the time of your death, you cannot inherit eternal life. (10:26-30 of Hebrews) Instead, you are destroyed by the consuming fire of God. (12:28-29 of Hebrews)
(5:18 of 1 John) “We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.”
The person who chooses to obey God is the person who keeps himself in the grace of God. When Satan tempts him, this person resists the temptation and he chooses to not sin. (5:8-10 of 1 Peter)
There is a great difference between “sin leading to death” and “sin not leading to death.” “Sin leading to death” is called mortal sin because it causes the death of spiritual life within the soul (33:12-20 of Ezekiel) and “sin not leading to death” is called venial sin because it does not cause the death of spiritual life within the soul. A person who sins “sin leading to death” is now called a son of disobedience. (5:5-7 of Ephesians)
(24:16 of Proverbs) “For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.” Large numbers of venial sins on the soul do not ever equal even one mortal sin.
There is a difference of degree and therefore a difference in the severity of punishment between venial sins and mortal sins. However, venial sins do weaken us spiritually and so we may more easily sin again and even sin worse sins if we do not nail these venial sins to the cross as soon as possible. (6:10-12 of Ephesians) (5:24-25 of Galatians)
Jesus gives us an example of the degrees of sin and their punishments:
(5:22 of Matthew) “But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.” NIV
If you die with unrepented mortal sin on your soul, then you will not enter into eternal life. The Holy Spirit cannot live in a soul that is defiled with mortal sin. If the Holy Spirit is not abiding within your soul at the time of your death, then you do not inherit eternal life. (3:16-18 of 1 Corinthians)
When a person repents of his sins, then Jesus removes the guilt for that sin because His sacrifice on the cross has infinite merits and they cannot ever be depleted. (20:22-23 of John) (2:1 of 1 John) (6:10 of Romans)
After a person has repented and confessed his sins, Jesus forgives him, but he still must atone for all the harm that his sins have caused others. (33:13-16 Ezekiel)
He may atone for them by prayers, fasting, alms, doing good to his neighbor, etc. (9:3 of Daniel) (24:17 of Acts) Love covers (atones for) a multitude of sins. (4:8 of 1 Peter) (25:34-40 of Matthew)
If he has not completely atoned for them by the time that he dies, then he will be put into prison until they have all been atoned for completely/perfectly. (5:25-26 of Matthew) We call this prison purgatory because sins are purged by the consuming fire of God. (3:14-15 of 1 Corinthians) After he has been purified, he will then be approved to enter into eternal life. (1:28 of Colossians) (3:12 of Philippians) (3:2 of Revelation)
“Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.” (1:12 James)
There are direct links to Biblegateway.com for every Scripture reference that I listed that I did not already quote in its entirety.
I will be adding “Unbelief” and “It is Finished” to the website when I have time. I will post the addresses for them on this forum in case anyone is interested (if allowed to by Michael).
Hosea 4:6 “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.”
Because 350 comments is way too many…
351st!!!
AV…that was hilarious 😆
It’s about time!! lol!!!
Hi everyone. We’re home. What a WONDERFUL time we had.
Romans 13:1 does refer to magistrates…but does that negate the principle that all authority is given by God?
Authority is a much more critical issue than most think, IMO…especially in trying to discern “truth” from “error”…”right teachers” from “false teachers”…etc.
The question of “what or who has the last say on what is truth and what is error…who or what is the judge…and who has wisdom from God and who doesn’t…and has the authority to express that wisdom”…is an important one, IMO.
“We” all have lots of theories and opinions and subjective interpretations…and we have Logos…and somewhere there is Wisdom…which is where Absolute Truth and Knowledge intersect.
Wisdom is also synonymous with “Discernment”…I think you can connect the dots on this one.
Packer’s article was a good read…and helpful.
Packer lays out three “authority groups”…basically Church as Authority, Scripture as Authority, or Individual as Authority.
Hi Dusters! We’re hashin’ and smashin’ with a pashin’ (in love of course) 🙂
Much of these problems would go away for us if we would develop a greater understanding of the sinfulness of sin, and contrast that with a greater understanding of God’s holiness and purity.
Maybe that is why Paul was the greatest Christian who ever lived. He had that understanding, thanks in part to his Pharisee background.
The Pharisees were NOT bad guys per se. They had a lot of respect among the people (contrast to the Sadducees) They were devoted to God’s law, but did not understand the sinfulness of sin – and so we have Jesus’ words on the Sermon on the Mount and elsewhere in the Gospels directed to them.
When we read Paul’s new understanding in Romans of what it means to covet for example (the one sin that was clearly of the heart, though Jesus explained murder, adultery and the rest also were of the heart too in God’s sight) – we get a glimpse of the radical transformation that took place in his life as he rested solely on the merits of Christ. Then his letters are filled with this teaching, Galatians, Romans, Philippians.
The Pharisees in the church today are not so much the finger-pointers at sin, as they are those who trust in themselves that they are righteous. That is where this conversation has arrived. Yes, the blood of Christ, but THEN – it is on us to “stay” righteous.
May we meditate on Phil 3:9 and remember these are the words of a former Pharisee.
We went to visit DMW and LGT yesterday. DMW makes the best….THE BEST pot roast…it was so tender and flavorful…it is the best pot roast I have ever had. ever!
LGT is so beautiful. The Light shines so very brightly through her…she is so full of joy. I really enjoyed sitting with her and talking with her.
DMW is an amazing man of God. The best part of our visit was listening to him share some of his memories of different events…seeing him laugh…he was laughing so hard…lol….seeing him smile…made me happy to see him so happy.
Buster was really moved by DMW and LGT…I don’t think he has ever looked at another man with such respect nor held them in such high esteem since his dad…
Believe,
Thats very kind…but no…this is my calling.
AV,
Amen!
In agreement with MBs lunchtime post (#4)
and yet when AV says:
“Yes, the blood of Christ, but THEN – it is on us to “stay” righteous.”
Its not us nor depends upon us to “stay” righteous or holy,
Our sufficiency is not in ourselves, Our sufficiency is in Christ
He provides all we need to live a life of Godliness, Holiness and a walk pleasing in His sight, thouroughly equipped for every good work,, the works He has called us to and has planned for us from the foundations of the world to walk in,,,
God is for us!!! He supplies all our needs according to his riches in Christ Jesus,
and if we need to walk in Holiness, He supplies…
Had breakfast yesterday, and dinner the night before with E-brother. It was so fun. We did not hop from table to table like we did on our last visit but we still had fun. 😉
It is so hard to see that man from several years ago that was so upset with everyone in E-brother…he is so gentle and kind…and so funny.
It is so cool to see how far God has brought him…When I first came to PP, E could not leave his house…Remember how excited we all got the day E shared with us how he was able to drive to the beach….or when he was able to drive all the way to Oden’s church…
Hi SIS.. 🙂
lol hi Believe, good to hear yall are behaving. 😉
Totally off topic…but Safari 5 is basically unusable.
did I mention how good DMW’s pot roast was…yummmmmmy!
Hi Dusters!!!
So glad to hear you had such a good trip,
and that DMW and LGT were all aglow! No doubt partly due to your visit!!
you have a gift,,, if intelligence was rated on a scale of compassion and understanding you would be considered a genius!
And if it were rated according to Story telling.. genius status to DMW
the light of the Lord… LGT
humor… that would go to Buster! ha
Hi big brother.
Sorry to interrupt your conversation. How are you feeling?
Dusty,
i was typing to you… you know how that goes! 😀
Not doing well…won’t be on much longer today.
lol sis.
I am SOOOOOOOOOO looking forward to your visit.
🙁 I’m sorry you are not doing well. ((hugs))) What is wrong? How can I pray?
Was just learning about an interesting perspective,
the gifts and abilities of others in regarding to intelligence,
and I especially liked the quote:
“The question is not ‘How smart are you?’
but Rather ‘How are you smart?'”
It de-emphasizes the usually high regard of traditional IQ tests
in favor of highlighting the unique God gifted intelligences of various individuals
as people can be equally as smart in differing capacities.
Michael,
So sorry to hear that!
lifting you up in prayer
You know Dusty,
Im especially looking forward to seeing you
and setting aside some time for some serious prayer,
especially for the family here!
Good night all…
Grace and peace and the joy of the Lord!
looking forward to the time of prayer too Sis.
thanks bella, will be praying.
how are you doing?
MB~ will be joining Dusty in prayers for the concerns you have shared for Michael.
Bob: I will answer with these words, translated into English, “it is written…”
********************
Here is what I think “it is written” means:
Luke 4:3-4 “And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.” 4 But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.’”
Jesus answers Satan with a Scripture verse that echoes His own belief. Jesus paraphrases the author of Deuteronomy 8:3 in order to support His point of view. The Scripture supports Jesus’ belief, but it is important to realize that it is not the Scripture that is the foundation of Jesus’ belief. He uses Scripture as a helpful tool to explain His belief only.
It is Jesus who is Truth. It is the proper interpretation of Scripture which reveals truth, not Scripture alone by itself.
Two people can read the same Scripture passage and come up with two different interpretations and sometimes their interpretations contradict each other. Either only one of them or else none of them will actually teach truth as a result of his/their own interpretation.
Because this Book of Scriptures cannot explain/interpret itself, it has no authority. It is a book with words written in it and it definitely did not write itself. So, why should we believe that the contents of this book have any value at all?
The Koran is also a book of scriptures and so many people claim that only this book is Allah’s/God’s Word. So, why do you believe the Bible to be true, but not the Koran? They are both books sitting on a bookshelf in a store. How do we choose the right book to buy if we desire to learn how to inherit eternal life?
Readers of the Bible and readers of the Koran both claim that what is written in their book will show everyone the way to eternal life. Obviously, both of these groups of people are not correct. What about Buddha? Perhaps it is his writings that show the true way to eternal life instead.
So, since neither the Bible nor the Koran nor the writings by Buddha can claim superiority or authority for itself, who or what instead, has been given authority by God to tell us which book we should buy so that we can learn how to inherit eternal life?
Paul explains that it is the Church who was given the authority from God to be the foundation and support of the truth (and this includes the writing, compilation, and interpretation of Scripture).
So, if we believe that this one Church teaches the truth about how to inherit eternal life, then we will also buy their book in order to remind us of its teachings. We will also trust this Church to guide us so that we do not make errors in our interpretation of its Scriptures.
1 Timothy 3:15 “if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” Matthew 16:18-19
The Church is the support and foundation of the Truth of the Gospel. Scripture is a tool of the Church to help instruct its members in doctrine, etc. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
The Holy Spirit is the teacher, not the RCC.
“Now, the Holy Spirit has been sent to the Church as its Teacher, to guide Christians into truth, to make them wise unto salvation, to testify to them of Christ and to glorify Him thereby. (14) To the apostles, He came to remind them of Christ’s teaching, to show them its meaning, to add further revelation to it, and so to equip them to witness to all about their Lord. (15) To other men, He comes to make them partakers of the apostolic faith through the apostolic word. Paul indicates the permanent relation between the Spirit, the apostles’ word and the rest of the Church in 1 Cor. ii.10-16. The Spirit, he says, gave the apostles understanding of the gospel: “we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God”; “God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit.” Now the Spirit inspires and empowers their proclamation of these things to other men: “which things we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth”; Paul preaches, and knows that he preaches, “in demonstration of the Spirit and of power”. (16) And “he that is spiritual”—he in whom the Spirit abides to give understanding—discerns the meaning of the message and receives it as the testimony of God. This applies no less to the apostolic word written than to the apostolic word preached; and no more to the apostolic writings than to the rest of the written Word of God. The Spirit, who was its author, is also its interpreter, and such understanding of it as men gain is His gift.
Not that the Spirit’s presence in men’s hearts makes patient study of the text unnecessary. The Spirit is not given to make Bible study needless, but to make it effective. Nor can anything in Scripture mean anything when the Spirit interprets. The Spirit is not the prompter of fanciful spiritualizing, or of applications of texts out of their contexts on the basis of accidental associations of words. The only meaning to which He bears witness is that which each text actually has in the organism of Scripture; such witness as is borne to other meanings is borne by other spirits. But without the Spirit’s help there can be no grasp of the message of Scripture, no conviction of the truth of Scripture, and no faith in the God of Scripture. Without the Spirit, nothing is possible but spiritual blindness and unbelief.
It follows that the Christian must approach the study of Scripture in humble dependence on the Holy Spirit, sure that he can learn from it nothing of spiritual significance unless he is taught of God. Confidence in one’s own powers of discernment is an effective barrier to spiritual understanding. The self-confidence of nineteenth-century critical scholarship was reflected in its slogan that the Bible must be read like any other book; but the Bible is more than a merely human book, and understanding it involves more than appreciating its merely human characteristics. God’s book does not yield up its secrets to those who will not be taught of the Spirit. Our God-given textbook is a closed book till our God-given Teacher opens it to us.
A century of criticism has certainly thrown some light on the human side of the Bible—its style, language, composition, history and culture; but whether it has brought the Church a better understanding of its divine message than Evangelicals of two, three and four hundred years ago possessed is more than doubtful. It is not at all clear that we today comprehend the plan of salvation, the doctrines of sin, election, atonement, justification, new birth and sanctification, the life of faith, the duties of churchmanship and the meaning of Church history, more clearly than did the Reformers, or the Puritans, or the leaders of the eighteenth-century revival. When it is claimed that modern criticism has greatly advanced our understanding of the Bible, the reply must be that it depends upon what is meant by the Bible; criticism has thrown much light on the human features of Scripture, but it has not greatly furthered our knowledge of the Word of God. Indeed, it seems truer to say that its effect to date has been rather to foster ignorance of the Word of God; for by concentrating on the human side of Scripture it has blurred the Church’s awareness of the divine character of scriptural teaching, and by questioning biblical statements in the name of scholarship it has shaken confidence in the value of personal Bible study. Hence, just as the Mediævals tended to equate Church tradition with the Word of God, so modern Protestants tend to equate the words of scholars with the Word of God. We have fallen into the habit of accepting their pronouncements at second hand without invoking the Spirit’s help to search Scripture and see, not merely whether what they say is so (in so far as the lay Bible student is qualified to judge this), but also—often more important—whether God’s Word does not deal with more than the limited number of topics with which scholars at any one time are concerned. The result of this negligence is widespread ignorance among Churchmen as to what Scripture actually says. So it always is when the Church forgets how to search the Scriptures acknowledging its own blindness and looking to God’s Spirit to teach it God’s truth. There is no more urgent need today than that the Church should humble itself to learn this lesson once more.
We have now presented in positive outline the biblical approach to Scripture. Its text is word for word God-given; its message is an organic unity, the infallible Word of an infallible God, a web of revealed truth centered upon Christ; it must be interpreted in its natural sense, on the assumption of its inner harmony; and its meaning can be grasped only by those who humbly seek and gladly receive the help of the Holy Spirit.”
Packer, obviously.
Sister Christian..your 12:31 quoting of me writing ““Yes, the blood of Christ, but THEN – it is on us to “stay” righteous.”
You do realize that snippet of mine you quote is NOT my view on this issue. I was summarizing a point being made by others (and refuted by me, Michael, Bob and others).
This is a carryover from the prior 350 post thread. You would need to read that to get caught-up as to what I was writing and why.
Of course, if you choose to do so, we will see you in about a week 🙂
Just a note…I’m copying and pasting a lot because my carpal is out of control…and because Packer is a lot smarter than me.
All of the ponderings about other religious texts is answered by Peter in his 2nd epistle, chapter one.
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit
.
Far too much is made of “interpretation” when it comes to the gospel and salvation – and the gospel is the ONLY message the Bible intends for the unbeliever. Once one believes the gospel, the Holy Spirit indwells the person, and now you have the Author of Scripture Himself to be your interpreter for all the rest of it. (i.e. the priesthood of all believers).
What is it that needs interpreting here?
3 For l delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
or here?
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them
or here?
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith
I could go on with a few others of course, but the bottom line is that I have NO fear that anyone reading these verses would come to any other conclusion than what God intends. Of course, if someone comes along and says ‘You can’t understand this until we teach you the correct meaning” then they are likely to get really srewed up.
SHW:
It is written…
Your preoccupation and reverence for the RCC will never allow you to see.
I have another question for you. Since you like to take scripture out of context and apply literal to the non-literal let me ask you this:
In this scripture, “So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.” (Genesis 3:24,) God drive Adam out of the garden He stationed a cherubim with a “flaming sword.” Now considering at the time this happened Adam had no clue what a sword was nor was metallurgy even to a point that a sword could be forged, how did Adam know it was a sword?
Of course Moses, who wrote the account, and his readers both knew what a sword was was it really a sword or is the description written to mean something else?
AV:
Your #8 post was excellent and good example to those who use culture, history and context to explain and understand the scriptures.
Believe:
My understanding the idea of respecting authority is not that I give them a blank check for all their deeds. The way I respect human authority does demonstrate how I respond to God and His authority.
Done for the day and maybe for a long while.
I pretty much agree with most of what SHW has written here except I would swap “Eastern Orthodox Church” for “Roman Catholic Church” in her writings. Good job, good use of Scripture, God bless you!
Before I go,
SHW I hope you are aware there are 613 commandments given in the Law, all of which are God’s words.
I hope you are keeping them all.
Oh and the issue with us protestants is not keeping the commandments, it is your idea the commandments are what keep us saved and in His grace.
See and hear.
Salvation…Regeneration is a Supernatural phenomena…it is why it is so difficult to articulate, quantify and “understand”…
SHW can I ask you and X some questions?
Believe, don’t mix your ‘understandings’
It is not hard to understand the teaching of the Virgin Birth. The Bible could not be clearer. Of course, we can never understand (as in to articulate, quantify etc.) what actually happened in the miracle of the Virgin Birth.
Salvation is no different. It is very easy to understand what the Bible teaches in order to be saved – namely belief in the gospel. Yes, it is impossible to understand the ramifications of the Sinless God being made sin for us and all the rest. But the verses I posted could not be clearer – and they do not need me, Michael, Chuck Smith, Packer, Luther, or any church, whether in or outside of Rome, to “interpret” them so we might “understand” them.
How do I see part 1
Duh. Never mind
AV said, “It is not hard to understand the teaching of the Virgin Birth”
To “understand” the teaching does one need to fully understand how the Holy Spirit…Spirit…conceived with Mary…flesh…and produced Jesus incarnate who is both Spirit and flesh…and do you believe you can fully understand how the immaculate conception occurred and explain it in certainty…and how Jesus can be both flesh and Spirit…both fully man and fully God?
You really truly believe you have that level of understanding?
Or…do you just believe the story of Faith…without a complete understanding of how it happened…reasonably…scientifically?
Hi Believe,
I’m not really up for answering questions. I just wanted to offer a few words of encouragement to SHW.
She is posting the verses that always seemed to get skipped when my CC pastor did his “Verse-by-verse” shtick.
on Faith not of Faith…
AV…so one does not need to understand fully, reasonably, scientifically “how” something happened in order to be saved…correct?
when it got real hot in Sactown, we’d hose the shepherds down with the hose…..
currently 56 outside here…..
Happy Birthday Buster! I love you. xoxoxo
Believe, Jesus was born of a virgin. He had a human mother who gave birth to him after a normal period of pregnancy, but did so without the aid of sexual intercourse in the conception. Jesus had no human father.
THAT is nothing that requires interpretation. It is black and white in the text itself. Nor is it hard to “understand” as far as simply accepting it as truth. One can reject the authority of the Bible in favor of something (or someone) else and thereby reject the Virgin Birth. (i.e. Joseph had sex with Mary, she was raped by a Roman soldier etc.)
Again – if one accepts the authority of the Bible, the gospel of salvation is easy to understand and has nothing that needs special interpretation.
If someone wants to offer different “interpretations” of those simple salvation verses mentioned earlier, that come from the words themselves and not some outside source of influence, then feel free. It won’t be long though until you start sounding like Clinton “It depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is”
mabell,
I feel for you… 85-90 is my definition of “hot”….above that, well……..
While the winter is hard here at times, late spring through mid fall is great…
Holly,
What happened with the prescription?
The phone is obviously downstairs again… 🙂
MB…..don’t shave your Shepherd. They actually cool themselves through their coat….just make sure that you’ve brushed him thoroughly to get out any of the excess undercoat from winter. Keeping him brushed and hosed is the best…..but shaving is not a good idea.
Our 135# White Shepherd is not happy with us moving from the NW back to the South. We had 100% humidity the other day with no rain, and near 100 degrees. He just hangs out under the airconditioning vent. 😉
MB…I love Jesus’ interaction with Nicodemus….one of my favorite portions of Scripture.
No Bella – see my post 38. I am not talking POST conversion, only PRE conversion. POST conversion is a totally different unrelated topic..
The Bible has one thing and one thing only for the unbeliever – the gospel. The Bible has an entire systematic theology for us who are saved…
Sarah,
I would not be happy with anyone who moved me from the Northwest to the South, either… 8)
Centy….I think he’s plotting things to do in the middle of the night. 😉 The humidity here gets me a bit, being a desert kid. Still…the small town we are in is wonderful. My boys are out playing driveway hockey until dark, then catching lightning bugs until I drag them in. There are small towns in every state, I’m sure, and it is a blessing we don’t take lightly that our boys have an innocent childhood to this point.
Fixed the spelling issue there… 🙂
MB…they are wonderful dogs. We had to put our first one down about a month ago, Gabriel was 12 1/2. Simon, our White Shepherd is 10 now. I’d love to get another, but I think we are taking on one of my dad’s Chesapeake Bay Retrievers this summer.
Yes, Sarah, count your blessing in that regard. My boys grew up in a heavy gang area, complete with numerous burglaries, drive-bys, etc. Our shepherds served us well in that neighborhood. I don’t know if you drove through my town when you were out for a visit last Spring. It is much like what you described although we live seven miles out of town in an area where everyone has at least one acre.
Michael…totally off topic, but I’ve read that organic, unfiltered apple cider vinegar helps inflammation– so if the carpal tunnel is because of inflammation, it might help. I’ve been taking it for another reason and the problem has totally gone away!
Centy…I loved your town. I would like to hang out there for a couple days…the drive from there through the mountains was gorgeous.
Where we lived in Vancouver was pretty rough. We had heroine/crack dealers across the street who shared the house with a bunch of alcoholic teens. There was a body found in the park by the house, and the day before we moved back here there was a stabbing across the street. We had a beer bottle thrown through the window one night after some drunk was beating on our door….so yep, I love the life here.
Funny, though…when we were moving we had some things we couldn’t take with us (paint and stuff), we had left it all out in the carport and spent the last night in a hotel. When we came back by in the morning to take the stuff to the dump, the homeless in the neighborhood had organized it all….they had taken what they wanted and left the rest in nice neat stacks. We cracked up, but were also a little sobered by how quickly people descended on the place.
Linnea,
Guess what is sitting in front of me…with a little honey added. 🙂
I’m hoping it works … I get the inflammation in my elbow and it’s …worth drinking vinegar to fix!
Linnea & Michael….my brother takes that for asthma and allergies. My great-uncle took 2 tbs a day every day in his 98 years and swore by it 😉
Michael,
Re: “Now, the Holy Spirit has been sent to the Church as its Teacher, to guide Christians into truth, to make them wise unto salvation, to testify to them of Christ and to glorify Him thereby.
*****
Yes, this is true. Notice the Holy Spirit was sent to Christ’s Church. Who did Jesus build His Church upon? Was it Michael or SHW? No. Do either of them have the authority to declare that only his/her interpretation of Scripture is the correct one? No.
Who holds the keys to Christ’s kingdom? It is the Church built upon Peter Matthew 16:17-19 and the apostles and the prophets. Ephesians 2:19-21 These “keys” denote Peter’s premier stewardship (chief steward) of Jesus’ Church. Isaiah 22:15-23
Only Peter is given the keys to the kingdom of God. These keys are passed down in this same Church to a new steward when the chief steward can no longer serve in his office. Peter’s successors are chosen in the same manner as Moses successors were. The successors of Moses were the scribes and Pharisees. Matthew 23:1-3
Jesus established only one Church. His promises are for His one Church, the Church built upon Peter and the apostles and the prophets of which He alone is the chief cornerstone. The doctrine of this one Church is protected until Jesus returns again at His Second Coming at the end of the age. Matthew 28:19-20, John 16:13 Hades will never prevail against the Catholic Church because Jesus promised to be with it always. It is His Holy Spirit who guides His Catholic Church into all truth.
there has been a lot of rationale for losing one’s salvation thru sinning – i’m not going to argue except to say that the NT use of the word ‘seal’ has to be worked around to come to that conclusion – seems a shame, tho, to take away it’s inference of finality…
MB…c’mon out. Our house is usually filled with kids…there are 17 that live on our street and they are usually in our yard / house. Some days it drives me wacky, but most days it’s a good thing.
We like being so close to Nashville, so we have some city advantages, but it’s nice to come home and not worry about the fact that we forgot to lock the door when we left or when we went to bed.
Michael…I hope it helps you. It sure took care of my issue very quickly.
Sarah…interesting about your brother and great-uncle. One doctor told me that all illness is caused by inflammation and that if you can control the inflammation, you can control the recurrence of illness.
I don’t hate the South…all the kin on my moms side are Southerners.
I hate humidity and insects that are bigger than my fist.
That’s why they all moved here to God’s country and you should do likewise. 🙂
Michael…the insects fill in when we can’t find a baseball or a hockey puck….they are convenient to have around.
shepherds can get relief from overheating by standing in very cold water – can you spare some ice cubes to cool that pool? or throw a bag of ice in? (hope there’s some shade for all) – some dogs will chew ice and get some relief also – their feet and mouth are their radiators…
SWH,
I completely reject your assertion that the church was built on Peter and that the “keys” are handed down through apostolic succession so the rest of your construction is rejected as well.
Trying to figure out how I can trust in myself, or make sure ive crossed the t’s and dotted the i’s of the legalists…thanks be to God He is my propitiation and my only hope
An insect the size of a hockey puck would cause me to carry a sidearm. 🙂
organic, unfiltered apple cider vinegar
———————————————-
Someone in my family will also swear by this remedy. I’ve used it on occasion for bad throats when I need to preach.
SHW wrote “Jesus established only one Church” – if that one Church is Rome (and not simply the Body of Christ throughout all generations and locations) then everyone here not a Catholic is outside the one Church.
Yet, earlier you said we were believers too. Obviously a saved Christian believer can’t be outside of the one true Church. In fact, we reject many of the teachings of this ‘one true Church’ This is one of your many inconsistencies these last couple of days.
You can’t have it both ways. I would have more respect frankly if you would just go Middle Ages on us and call us anathema. At least THAT would be consistent with Rome’s (i.e. the one Church) actions over most of the 2000 years of history.
(Now I’m sure someone will accuse me of being a Catholic-hater – (sigh))
AV,
I agree…we fit the anathemas of Trent and to be consistent we should be anathema to to SHW.
Bob,
Re: In this scripture, “So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.” (Genesis 3:24,) God drive Adam out of the garden He stationed a cherubim with a “flaming sword.” Now considering at the time this happened Adam had no clue what a sword was nor was metallurgy even to a point that a sword could be forged, how did Adam know it was a sword?
******
When you saw a sword for the first time, did you know what it was called? If not, did you not still see it and still notice that it looked dangerously sharp?
If this is simply a story and not literally true, does it matter? Not really. The point (literal or imagery) is that Adam was forced out of the garden and not allowed back in because of his disobedience to God. Adam was prevented from returning to the garden by God’s decree due to his own disobedience.
Sin always has unpleasant consequences so now Adam had to die plus he had to work all the days of his life in order to live on earth. When he died, he could not enter into eternal life. The best he could do was to enter into Abraham’s bosom and the worst was hell. Luke 16:19-26
When one-third of the angels sinned, what was the consequence for their disobedience?
Revelation 12:3-4, Jude 1:6 They will be condemned to hellfire for eternity.
What happens to persons who disobey God and therefore do not obey His gospel?
2 Thessalonians 1:8 They receive the flaming fire of vengeance for eternity.
I think we had an eric sighting….that would be a good thing. 🙂
“That’s why they all moved here to God’s country and you should do likewise. ”
If that was for mabell, I would concur. But for the rest of you…… it’s horrible here, stay where you’re at!! lol (JK) 8)
SHW, the doctrine of one Church is an absolute truth; that is about as far as i can agree with you on that
The east coast is the western edge of the Mississippi River….
oh and mabell…..
I spent six of the longest months of my life on the Mississippi Gulf Coast…. and it only got worse as we went inland….. (sorry dread)
westoftherockiescent
Centy,
Spoken like a true Oregonian! 🙂
eric? that you? you still get prayed for by some of us here 😀
Just taking a break from finals and read through the last page of stuff, thanks we can use all the prayers we can get. Still dont understand how we can get all wrapped up in trusting ourselves to live a life the Lord finds pleasing. Only ive ever done that was pleasing to Him was when I was asleep, aside from that I’m pretty sure I dissapoint Him daily, hourly minutely (not a word but whatever, and by the second… my only Hope and Trust can be in the fact that He says im worthy because of who He is…everything else is just chaff, even when I try to live up to His lowest of expectations I fail. Anyone who says they can meet even Christs lowest expectation, to love our neighbor as ourselves, and love the Lord our God with a whole heart is either a liar or insane.
Back to the PHP and MYSQL world where everything makes more sense, blessings all
hi eric
out to face the lions
welcome back, Eric!
Bob: SHW I hope you are aware there are 613 commandments given in the Law, all of which are God’s words.
I hope you are keeping them all.
**Oh and the issue with us protestants is not keeping the commandments, it is your idea the commandments are what keep us saved and in His grace.
********
I am not under the Law of Moses so I do not have to keep any of those (613?) laws which pertain to diet or animal sacrifice, etc. Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses and so it is now finished/obsolete. Ephesians 2:14-16, Hebrews 8:13
This is the good news! I am no longer under the Old Covenant with its crushing obligations. I am now under the New Covenant instead.
So, now I only have to obey the royal law, the law of love James 2:8, Luke 10:27, Romans 13:8-10 which Jesus gives us examples of in Matthew 19:16-19 and Paul even gives us examples of sins in Galatians 5:19-21 that will prevent us from entering into eternal life.
**Actually, it is Jesus’ command that we must be obedient to His commandments in order to remain saved and in His grace.
1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”
What happens to liars (the persons who claim to know Him yet do not obey His commandments)?
Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
All liars end up in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone for all eternity. Romans 2:5-9
Believe: Salvation…Regeneration is a Supernatural phenomena…it is why it is so difficult to articulate, quantify and “understand”…
SHW can I ask you and X some questions?
*******
Of course! 🙂 Who is X?
Xenia,
Thanks for your kind words! Much appreciated. 🙂 I’m glad to see another non-Protestant here!
SHW said, “I’m glad to see another non-Protestant here!”
What is that supposed to mean? do we have cooties? 😕
Xenia is not a ‘non-protestant’ she is our sister. 😛
Agreed Centy. I have traveled ALL over the place in this last year as an OTR Truck Driver, and can’t wait to get back to the Pacific NW every time I go out. Long live Oregon! 🙂
Night all….off to catch lightning bugs 😉
SHW
You views are tainted by the RCC so beating my head about salvation and works would mean I like that sort of thing.
I will say one thing I found over the years is no one even keeps the law of love, or the Royal law, perfectly, even RCC folks. Just check out all the problems with priestly abuse.
Additionally the James 2:8 scripture you quote, quotes Lev. 19:18.
So the Royal Law and Loving thy neighbor is not an exception to the older, 613, laws it is an encompassing scripture of those laws.
But my point is, it is impossible to keep any law and that is why Grace always comes first and then, as so many others have posted, works follow out of one’s love for God and the grace He has granted you through Jesus Christ.
SHW…X is Xenia…our Eastern Orthodox representative on here.
OK, questions:
Titus 3:5
Ephesians 2:8
What do you believe these two verses to mean in the context of Salvation?
I’m sure someone asked you about both of these on the monster thread…but can you please revisit this?
SHW…Let’s try that one again…
Titus three:five (English Standard Version)
5he saved us,(A) not because of works done by us in righteousness, but(B) according to his own mercy, by(C) the washing of regeneration and(D) renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Ephesians two:eight (English Standard Version)
8For(A) by grace you have been saved(B) through faith. And this is(C) not your own doing;(D) it is the gift of God,
SHW…do you believe that “belief” is something you do?
Better stated: when one is presented with explanations of salvation…be it Islam, Buddhism or rather no religion/salvation at all…how does one make the correct choice?
Does asking Jesus into your heart save you?
Does obedience to Christ’s commandments save you?
Does a proper attitude of submission to Christ save you?
Michael,
SWH,
I completely reject your assertion that the church was built on Peter and that the “keys” are handed down through apostolic succession so the rest of your construction is rejected as well.
*******
No surprise here! 🙂
AV:
SHW wrote “Jesus established only one Church” – if that one Church is Rome (and not simply the Body of Christ throughout all generations and locations) then everyone here not a Catholic is outside the one Church.
********
Not exactly. You are attached to it because of the truths that we do share (including baptism for some of you), but we are definitely not in perfect union, obviously!
SHW…if someone is “saved”….and then commits a mortal sin…they have lost their Salvation…correct?
Must they be Born Again….again…to gain their Salvation back? Do they need to re-believe? Or, do they just need to repent? How does one repent of a mortal sin? How does that manifest itself practically?
SHW…you say that Faith plus righteous works save…what are the righteous works that are requisite in combination with Faith to be saved?
Is it Faith plus one righteous work? Or, is there a list of righteous works that must be completed?
Dusty: SHW said, “I’m glad to see another non-Protestant here!”
What is that supposed to mean? do we have cooties? 😕
Xenia is not a ‘non-protestant’ she is our sister. 😛
*******************8
No, no cooties! 🙂
However, it is nice to see someone here who agrees with me in some of the things that I post. 🙂
SHW…”There can be no righteous works done unless faith is present at the same time.”
Can there be Faith and no righteous works…and one still be saved?
I can not keep up with this thread…..
SHW…when one is Born Again and is a “New Creation”…what do you believe the “New Creation” to be…flesh or spirit…or both?
Galatians 5:16-23 (New American Standard Bible)
16But I say, (A)walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out (B)the desire of the flesh.
17For (C)the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, (D)so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are (E)led by the Spirit, (F)you are not under the Law.
What is that supposed to mean? do we have cooties?
Xenia is not a ‘non-protestant’ she is our sister
Dusty,
I think I might understand what you’re saying. I understand that different parts of the Church have different emphases. But Jesus prayed for the unity of the Church, and so must we.
I found this fascinating comment by Garry Wills, a Catholic and a historian, on why he remains a Catholic despite all the sins of the Church and all the terrible flaws of the papacy:
“I am asked, if I believe this, why I remain a Catholic. I do that precisely because I do not equate the people of God with the papacy. Well, I am told, other churches honor the Creed and the Gospel without the burden of a papacy as outdated as the medieval costumes it affects.
I want to be at one with Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and others; but I want all of these communions to come together, and I cannot do that by renouncing the Catholic membership in such an ecumenical Christianity, saying some churches are better than others.
When the disciples of Jesus came back from their first mission away from him, the apostle John reported, “Master, we saw a man driving out evil in our name, and he was not one of us, we tried to stop him.” Jesus asks why they did that: “No one who does a work of divine power in my name will be able the next moment to speak evil of me” (Mark 9:38-39).
All of us who honor his name must come together. When a Catholic tells me—often these days, it is a young woman—that she can no longer put up with the male monarchical Church, I tell her, “Stay with us, we need you. The people of God need you.”
All those who honor the name of Jesus are engaged in a joint search for the Jesus who will not be found in marble halls or wearing imperial costumes. He is forever on the run.
He is the one who said, “Whatever you did to any of my brothers, even the lowliest [elackistoi], you did to me” (Matthew 25:41). That means that the priests abusing the vulnerable young were doing that to Jesus, raping Jesus.
Any clerical functionary who shows more sympathy for the predator priests than for their victims instantly disqualifies himself as a follower of Jesus. The cardinals said they must care for their own, going to jail if necessary to protect a priest. We say the same thing, but the “our own” we care for are the victimized, the poor, the violated.
They are Jesus.”
http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2010/05/20/gary-wills-and-the-people-of-god/
Bob: I will say one thing I found over the years is no one even keeps the law of love, or the Royal law, perfectly, even RCC folks. Just check out all the problems with priestly abuse.
**************
Truly scandalous, those priests. God will judge them justly.
Evil persons as members of God’s house:
Judas was chosen by Christ. He betrayed Christ and then despaired (perhaps because he believed that his sin was greater than God’s mercy). One out of 12 lost forever.
Peter denied Christ, yet he repented, and so he restored his relationship with Christ. He became the keeper of the keys of Jesus’ Church. Repentance of grievous sin regains salvation. One out of 12 restored to God.
Denial: Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”
Peter denied Christ by his literal words; however, all disobedient acts (sins) actually deny God.
Result of denial if not repented of before death: Matthew 10:33 “But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.”
Christ’s Church should not be judged by its membership. Jesus established His Church. It is His Church and He is perfection!!!
All evil-acting priests if they do not repent before death will be cast into everlasting hell. These weeds (tares) will be removed from His Church at harvest time and burned. Matthew 13:37-39, Luke 15:6-7, 2 Peter 3:9, Matthew 7:21-23
SHW…what you believe it means to “walk” in the Spirit…vs. being “led” by the Spirit?
What is that supposed to mean? do we have cooties?
Xenia is not a ‘non-protestant’ she is our sister
Dusty,
I think I might understand what you’re saying. We all know that different parts of the Church have different emphases. But Jesus prayed for the unity of the Church, and so must we.
I found this fascinating comment by Garry Wills, a Catholic and a historian, on why he remains a Catholic despite all the sins of the Church and all the terrible flaws of the papacy:
“I am asked, if I believe this, why I remain a Catholic. I do that precisely because I do not equate the people of God with the papacy. Well, I am told, other churches honor the Creed and the Gospel without the burden of a papacy as outdated as the medieval costumes it affects.
I want to be at one with Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and others; but I want all of these communions to come together, and I cannot do that by renouncing the Catholic membership in such an ecumenical Christianity, saying some churches are better than others.
When the disciples of Jesus came back from their first mission away from him, the apostle John reported, “Master, we saw a man driving out evil in our name, and he was not one of us, we tried to stop him.” Jesus asks why they did that: “No one who does a work of divine power in my name will be able the next moment to speak evil of me” (Mark 9:38-39).
All of us who honor his name must come together. When a Catholic tells me—often these days, it is a young woman—that she can no longer put up with the male monarchical Church, I tell her, “Stay with us, we need you. The people of God need you.”
All those who honor the name of Jesus are engaged in a joint search for the Jesus who will not be found in marble halls or wearing imperial costumes. He is forever on the run.
He is the one who said, “Whatever you did to any of my brothers, even the lowliest [elackistoi], you did to me” (Matthew 25:41). That means that the priests abusing the vulnerable young were doing that to Jesus, raping Jesus.
Any clerical functionary who shows more sympathy for the predator priests than for their victims instantly disqualifies himself as a follower of Jesus. The cardinals said they must care for their own, going to jail if necessary to protect a priest. We say the same thing, but the “our own” we care for are the victimized, the poor, the violated.
They are Jesus.”
http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2010/05/20/gary-wills-and-the-people-of-god/
London,”I can not keep up with this thread.” that’s because God has sent in a spirit of confusion 😉
my mind is looking for a way out so, i’m wondering what the difference is between: ‘can not’ and ‘cannot’ (not to be confused with ‘carrot’ which looks very similar thru my bifocals this nite… 😆
God keep all close and comforted in our knowledge of Him this nite
No, God did not send in a spirit of confusion. I just have been away from my computer most of the day and Believe is asking so many dang questions so fast that I can’t sort though his questions and the answers other people are asking or giving.
SHW…are the only “good works” that will be judged as righteous…are they initiated by man or by God?
Are the works that are judged unrighteous…works initiated by man or by God?
Cross examining…you’ve got to go with the flow…you know 🙂
It will eventually make some sense…
Hi all, I am just pondering days of old on the PP. 😉 Remember when we were able to click on a person’s name and see their comments in order? I know…this has a huge data base, (is that the correct word?) I am only thinking out loud. Maybe in the future we’ll be able to click and all the comments will magically appear in order. That would be really something! 🙂 blessings to all this evening!! 🙂
See what I mean 😉
What is that supposed to mean? do we have cooties?
Xenia is not a ‘non-protestant’ she is our sister
Dusty,
I think I might understand what you’re saying. We all know that different parts of the Church have different emphases. But Jesus prayed for the unity of the Church, and so must we.
I found this fascinating comment by Garry Wills, a Catholic and a historian, on why he remains a Catholic despite all the sins of the Church and all the terrible flaws of the papacy:
“I am asked, if I believe this, why I remain a Catholic. I do that precisely because I do not equate the people of God with the papacy. Well, I am told, other churches honor the Creed and the Gospel without the burden of a papacy as outdated as the medieval costumes it affects.
I want to be at one with Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and others; but I want all of these communions to come together, and I cannot do that by renouncing the Catholic membership in such an ecumenical Christianity, saying some churches are better than others.
When the disciples of Jesus came back from their first mission away from him, the apostle John reported, “Master, we saw a man driving out evil in our name, and he was not one of us, we tried to stop him.” Jesus asks why they did that: “No one who does a work of divine power in my name will be able the next moment to speak evil of me” (Mark 9:38-39).
All of us who honor his name must come together. When a Catholic tells me—often these days, it is a young woman—that she can no longer put up with the male monarchical Church, I tell her, “Stay with us, we need you. The people of God need you.”
All those who honor the name of Jesus are engaged in a joint search for the Jesus who will not be found in marble halls or wearing imperial costumes. He is forever on the run.
He is the one who said, “Whatever you did to any of my brothers, even the lowliest [elackistoi], you did to me” (Matthew 25:41). That means that the priests abusing the vulnerable young were doing that to Jesus, raping Jesus.
Any clerical functionary who shows more sympathy for the predator priests than for their victims instantly disqualifies himself as a follower of Jesus. The cardinals said they must care for their own, going to jail if necessary to protect a priest. We say the same thing, but the “our own” we care for are the victimized, the poor, the violated.
They are Jesus.”
http://trueslant.com/erikkain/2010/05/20/gary-wills-and-the-people-of-god/
Bob and everyone else here,
FYI:
I belong to the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church. The official name for my Church is Catholic Church. There are about 15 other Rites other than the Roman that belong to this same Catholic Church. The bishop of Rome is the bishop who holds the keys of the kingdom at the present time in this Catholic Church since that is where they built the home for the pope which is slang for “papa.”
The term “Catholic Church” was already commonly in use before the first century ended.
Ignatius, the third bishop of Antioch: During the reign of Emperor Trajan (98 A.D.-117 A.D.) Ignatius was taken to Rome to be executed. The exact year of the journey is uncertain, but most scholars estimate it was around 107 A.D. or 110 A.D.. On the way to his death, Ignatius wrote letters to churches he was passing by or through. In his letter to the church of Smyrna, he wrote: “Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”[Epistle to the Smyrneans 8:2.].
This term “Catholic Church” was commonly in use before St. Ignatius wrote this letter or else he would not have used this name for Christ’s Church.
I didn’t say I didn’t like him. I just said he is asking questions so fast I can not keep up with what other people are sayinng, especially cause I had to go back to the Part 1 to see the answers to the questions I asked last night.
SHW…regarding Mortal Sins vs. other sins…you believe in a hierarchy of sin…correct?
Would Adam have been able to dwell with God in the Garden of Eden had he committed the sin of telling a lie only…vs. disobeying and eating of the Tree?
You say the repentance of “grievous” sin needs to be repented of to regain one’s Salvation…
What non-Mortal Sins or non-grievous sins could Adam have committed that would have kept him in the Garden with God?
Did sin enter the world because Adam ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil…or because Adam disobeyed God?
SHW…better stated: Had Adam not eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil…yet disobeyed another instruction of God…would sin have entered the world?
Believe,
Re: SHW…X is Xenia…our Eastern Orthodox representative on here.
OK, questions:
Titus 3:5 “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,”
Ephesians 2:8 plus 9 and 10: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
What do you believe these two verses to mean in the context of Salvation?
I’m sure someone asked you about both of these on the monster thread…but can you please revisit this?
*******
Oh, thanks.
Titus: washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit means baptism. None of our righteous works can atone for Adam’s sin, only Jesus’ death on the cross atones for Adam’s sin and thereby reconciles us to God. We individually receive this reconciliation/spiritual regeneration through our own baptism.
The Holy Spirit cleanses us/sanctifies us when we are baptized because this is how the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice are applied to each of us individually. This sanctification means we are holy (and we remain holy until we choose to disobey God by committing sins that lead to death). 1 Corinthians 6:11
We are spiritually regenerated (become friends of God) Romans 5:10 through the action of the Holy Spirit who removes Adam’s sin (and all of our personal sins on our souls at the exact time of the baptism).
Ephesians: No works, whether our own righteous works or works of the law (of Moses), could ever reconcile us to God in atonement for Adam’s sin. Only Jesus who is both God and Man could reconcile us to God by atoning for Adam’s sin. This is why He is called the one Mediator between God and Man. He had to die in order to give us hope of eternal life.
However, once Jesus reconciles us to God through baptism, we are commanded to accomplish the righteous works that God has prepared for us if we also desire to realize our hope and actually enter into eternal life after we die. Ephesians 2:10 is a commandment, not a suggestion.
Jesus died as a ransom for all mankind, yet not all persons are eternally saved. He only eternally saves those persons who do His Father’s will which means to do good deeds and also to refrain from committing sins that lead to death (loss of eternal life). Only the persons who obey Him are approved to wear the crown of eternal life because only the persons who obey Him truly love Him. He only gives the crown of eternal life to persons who love/obey Him. James 1:12, John 14:21
are we all still playing nice?
The term ‘catholic’ when used by the Early Church meant “that which is believed everywhere and by all.” It had nothing to do with the later Roman (Catholic) Church. How could it? The Roman Catholic Church didn’t exist until the fourth century.
“The rapid emergence of the Roman see as a pre-eminent centre of both leadership and jurisdicial authority is a striking feature of the life of the Western churches from the second half of the fourth century onwards.” (The Early Church, Henry Chadwick, Reguis Professor at Oxford and Cambridge).
To be a catholic Christian is not defined by institution, but by confession. For example, Lutherans consider themselves catholic Christians because they accept the beliefs Creeds common to all of Christendom as shown in the Nicene and Apostles Creeds.
hey big guy, are you here? been praying for you friend.
Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so. 😉
Hymns of praise and devotion were whispered for fear
That a faint sound or motion might reach the wrong ear.
Words, and then verses, whole chapters they learned.
Committed to memory, lest they be burned.
Whole families were taken by darkness of night.
Leaving multitudes shaken, aware of their plight.
They tortured and slew the men as they prayed.
Women and children knew, too the price to be paid.
Their crime was none other but their love of God.
Their refusal to smother his chastening rod.
They loved the Lord Jesus regardless the cost.
For they knew that without Him their souls were all lost.
-by Kim
Hi Dusty,
Your 152 — says it all!
Believe:
SHW…
!. do you believe that “belief” is something you do?
2. Better stated: when one is presented with explanations of salvation…be it Islam, Buddhism or rather no religion/salvation at all…how does one make the correct choice?
3. Does asking Jesus into your heart save you?
4. Does obedience to Christ’s commandments save you?
5. Does a proper attitude of submission to Christ save you?
******
1. Believe is an action verb. “But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.” James 1:22 Satan believes in God, but he is not saved. Judas believed in God, but he was not saved.
2. Since we know that we humans did not create the world, Someone else had to. Nothing happens without a cause. If a person has a humble and contrite heart, God will make sure that he finds Him.
Let’s say you read a pamphlet about God and you decide that you want to learn more so you go to the church at the address written on the pamphlet and after learning more, you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Great! Now, you are a child of God.
Okay, then you start reading and studying your Bible (which you received when you joined the church) and you think that baptism is what God really wants of you. So, you find a church that also holds this belief and you join it. Etc…..Where God first meets you in your life’s journey is not necessarily the same place that He brings you to after you spend time with Him.
3. Yes, this is baptism by desire. (You desire to please God more than yourself.)
4. Yes, by obeying God’s commandments we will realize our hope of entering into eternal life after we die.
5. There is no salvation without submission to God.
That’s all for tonight. 🙂
What is greater than God
More evil than the devil
The poor have it
The rich need it
And if you eat it, you’ll die?
Nothing.
you got it 🙂
hi Luth
Well, at least from this conversation with SHW we can see what Luther was arguing against and we can see that the RCC has not changed anything. They are still works.
This is the reason that the Catholic Church says that non Christians who do the good works can still have a place in God’s kingdom. According to Vatican 2 dogma, there is a great possibility that the Dali Lama is “in” – but Luther is definitely “out”
Ah then it’s lucky for you Lutherans….they don’t get a vote 😉
SWH…do you believe that the Holy Spirit indwells a person who is saved?
Assuming yes…
If the Holy Spirit is also God…a part of the Trinity…and God cannot dwell with sin…then how can one commit a non-Mortal sin…and have the Holy Spirit remain in them?
How does one stay Justified while committing Venial Sins…yet loses their Justification for Mortal Sins?
In the Garden when Adam and Eve sinned…how did they know they were committing a Mortal Sin by disobeying God…if they hadn’t yet ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
“Venial sin is a sin of lesser matter than grave sin. It can also be a sin of grave matter in which the sinner did not fully consent to the sin or did not have knowledge that his actions where sinful. Venial sins will not destroy grace in the soul, and will not directly cause a person who dies in the state of venial sin to lose the promise of heaven. Yet, venial sin weakens a person’s will to avoid evil and thus may indirectly lead to mortal sin. Regardless, all sin is an offense against God and should be avoided.”
Is it Venial Sin to disobey one of God’s commands…if you don’t have the knowledge that a particular command is sin?
A mentally ill person…if they commit murder…is it counted as Mortal Sin to them or Venial Sin?
mld,
lol!!! well, what else would we expect from Romanism? They are loaded with false doctrine. Indulgences, Marianism, apostolic succession, celebacy requirements of clergy (that one has worked real well for them, hasn’t it?), purgatory, transubstantiation …….etc, etc etc….
If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of sin…and thus committed Venial Sin…when they disobeyed God regarding eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil…why did they get kicked out of the Garden of Eden?
Again, did sin enter the world because they disobeyed God…or because they ate of the Tree which gave them the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
Interesting conversation.
centy, what they say is that those people “really” are believers, but they just don’t know it, but their good works speak for them.
SHW…what about a Sociopath?
They don’t possess the ability to know what they are doing is wrong…if they commit murder is that Venial Sin or Mortal Sin?
Interesting the Catholic hierarchy of sin…one has a little bit of grace built up in the soul to cover “venial” sins…but not enough grace to cover a “mortal sin”…so one loses their salvation…which means they lose their regeneration, justification…and must re-believe…repent…and be re-born again to get their salvation back.
Yet, one can commit a “venial sin”…even a “grave” sin…as long as one doesn’t have knowledge or understanding that it’s sin…and there is just enough grace in the tank to keep them saved after those sins.
Wow, I read most of these posts but don’t have the heart to read all of them. These long threads haven’t been seen in a long time.
Anyway, I wanted to mention that there are two different kinds of works for God that a person can perform. Those which he hopes are meritorous and salvivic, and those which are done out of love and gratitude.
A Christian is called to perform good works for God, and the verse that most people truncate at the end of Ephesians 2:8-9, the great verse quoted by Michael earlier on salvation being by grace through faith and not as a result of works, is: Eph.2:10, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.” This verse shows that God wants us to perform good works out of obedience to Him and that glorify Him. But, those works cannot and will not ever be considered meritorous or salvivic for us. They may show that we truly have been saved, but they will not ever be the means of our having been saved.
Paul in his epistles laid out clearly for us that there is no way that a person could ever be justified by his works apart from being perfect, and that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ plus nothing. Notice what he says in these verses:
Romans 3:28 (NASB95)
“28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
Galatians 2:16 (NASB95)
“16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.”
Paul even goes so far as to say that those who are seeking to be justified before God based upon their works (a combination of faith plus works that they are depending upon) have been severed from Christ and have fallen from grace: Galatians 5:4 (NASB95)
“4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
A person can’t base his eternal salvaion upon a combination of faith plus works, it must be one or the other, faith or works. Here is the thing, just one sin is enough to send a person to hell if they are basing their salvation upon their works, just as Paul lays out in Rom. 3:23, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” The works option is not available for us to trust in for us to be acceptable by God, we are left only to trust in Jesus’ substitutionary death for our sins upon the cross, and His righteousness to be imputed to us if we are to be accepted by God.
In the third chaper of 1 Corinthians, Paul talks about rewards after this life for the Christian, and he mentions the person who has faith in Christ for salvation but no works that please God, and listen to what he says: 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NASB95)
“10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” This is salvation by faith apart from any good works, and the person will make it to heaven, “saved but cinged” someone once said.
Michael has carefully laid out here for us the fact that the heresy of the Galatians was to trust in their works plus have faith in Christ for salvation, and this envoked an anathema by Paul, and an admonition to us to let that person be accursed. For all of us our works are mixed, some good and some bad, and thus they will never please a totally holy and righteous God, and, maybe more importantly, when we trust to any degree in our own righteousness we at the same time trample under our feet and count as a common thing the precious blood of Christ and sacrifice He made for us so that we might be able to be saved.
Be holy and do good works for God out of love and gratitude, but never ever trust in them to make you acceptable to God…
Help, I’m in moderation!
Believe,
SHW…1. if someone is “saved”….and then commits a mortal sin…they have lost their Salvation…correct?
2. Must they be Born Again….again…to gain their Salvation back?
3. Do they need to re-believe? Or, do they just need to repent?
4. How does one repent of a mortal sin?
5. How does that manifest itself practically?
*************
1. Yes, they are no longer justified. They have insulted the Holy Spirit and so He no longer remains/abides in their souls. Hebrews 10:26-30
2. No, born again refers to Baptism. You can only be sacramentally baptized once (born of water and the Spirit) John 3:2-6 The main purpose of Baptism is to remove Adam’s sin from the soul. This is why babies are baptized. Sacramental Baptism gives more grace than Baptism by Desire (which means to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, etc., but without the cleansing by washing of water through the word Ephesians 5:26).
3. When they sin mortal sins, this is unbelief. Hebrews 3:18-19 They deny the power of God to save them. 2 Timothy 3:2-9 When they repent and confess, they believe again and so they are justified.
4. Being truly sorry for having offended God and making a firm resolution to never commit this sin again. If Catholic, confession to a priest is necessary because this is what Jesus commanded. John 20:22-23 Jesus has chosen to forgive sins through His priests. It is His power that forgives the sins. 1 John 2:1 Priests are supposed to counsel the penitent during confession if this is needed. Since penance/reconciliation through a priest is a sacrament, it gives graces. These graces help to strengthen the person so that they do not sin again.
5. Prayers, alms, fasting, offering up Jesus’ merits will atone for your sins. Acts 10:4, Acts 10:30
Sacramental confession: Through the priest we are enabled (1) to ask pardon from God and receive His forgiveness (2) and to ask pardon of all the persons affected by our sins and (3) to receive their forgiveness.
Believe,
SHW…1. you say that Faith plus righteous works save…what are the righteous works that are requisite in combination with Faith to be saved?
2. Is it Faith plus one righteous work?
3. Or, is there a list of righteous works that must be completed?
***************
1. All things that you do to show love for God and neighbor are righteous works. You fulfill the Royal Law (of love) by doing righteous works. The more righteous works that you do, the greater your reward in heaven. Matthew 6:19-20
2. Persons who do no righteous works are called lukewarm. It is not a good thing to be lukewarm! Revelation 3:15-18 God will judge them justly.
3. No specific list. 1 Timothy 5:8
Believe,
SHW…”There can be no righteous works done unless faith is present at the same time.”
Can there be Faith and no righteous works…and one still be saved?
*********
Lukewarm faith is faith with no righteous works. Revelation 3:16 It is for God to judge whether they will be saved if they are lukewarm. Faith is not simply head knowledge. We must prove that we have faith by doing good deeds. James 2:20 Dead faith does not save.
Let’s say that a person repents of his sins and then is immediately killed by a heart attack. He is not an unbeliever, but he has had no time to do good works except to repent. He will be saved (his repentance is a good work), but he will be in purgatory a long time. 1 Corinthians 3:15
The persons who repented while they were drowning during the Great Flood were saved, but they were still in prison (purgatory) 2000 years later because Scripture tells us that Jesus went to preach to them during the time between His death and resurrection. 1 Peter 3:18-20 Luke 12:58-59
SHW…when did man get his conscience?
When he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
Or was man created with his “conscience” prior to eating of the Tree?
Believe,
SHW…when one is Born Again and is a “New Creation”…what do you believe the “New Creation” to be…flesh or spirit…or both?
Galatians 5:16-23 (New American Standard Bible)
16But I say, (A)walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out (B)the desire of the flesh.
17For (C)the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, (D)so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are (E)led by the Spirit, (F)you are not under the Law.
**************
Spirit. The Holy Spirit takes up residence within our souls when we are baptized (born again). We become a new creation spiritually (we become children of God) because we are spiritually reborn (reconciled to God) through baptism.
Believe,
SHW…what you believe it means to “walk” in the Spirit…vs. being “led” by the Spirit?
*******
The Holy Spirit desires to lead us. When we choose to follow His lead by obedience to God’s commandments, then we are walking in (abiding in) the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit leads. We walk (follow).
SHW,
1) You misunderstand the scriptures, we are all priests in Christ:
1 Peter 2:9 (NASB95)
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
2) There is no intermediary for us to go through to get to God there is just one mediator to God and that is Jesus Christ:
1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB95)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
3) You are deluded thinking that there are different breakdowns of sins, and that some are worse than others and some sins are venial and some are mortal, when you break any commandment you in a sense have broken them all:
James 2:10 (NASB95)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
4) You as a RCC believe in the infallibility of the pope, yet you ought to search the papal edicts throughout history and you will find that many contradict each other and that some are downright blasphemous. The history of the papacy is one of the most corrupt things you can study about. On the other hand God says that He never changes, His word never returns void, He is holy and just in all that He does, and that He never has or needs to repent for His actions. You would be wise to put your trust in God and His word and not in man. His word is sufficient also for all that you need in life:
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NASB95)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
1 Peter 1:20-21 (NASB95)
20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
2 Peter 3:15-16 (NASB95)
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
2 Peter 1:3 (NASB95)
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
Hebrews 4:12 (NASB95)
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Isaiah 40:8 (NASB95)
8 The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.
Luke 21:33 (NASB95)
33 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Matthew 7:26-27 (NASB95)
26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
Revelation 22:19 (NASB95)
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
Help, I’m in moderation again! I promise to be good from now on!!!
Believe,
SHW…are the only “good works” that will be judged as righteous…1. are they initiated by man or by God?
2. Are the works that are judged unrighteous…works initiated by man or by God?
***************
1. God. James 1:13
2. Man and/or Satan. Mark 7:20-22 1 Peter 5:8
Believe,
1. in post #180 should be:
God. Ephesians 2:10 “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
James 1:13 is supposed to be part of answer 2. Sorry. 🙂
Christ atoned for all my sins…past, present, and future.
I need add nothing to the Cross.
Believe,
SHW…1. regarding Mortal Sins vs. other sins…you believe in a hierarchy of sin…correct?
2. Would Adam have been able to dwell with God in the Garden of Eden had he committed the sin of telling a lie only…vs. disobeying and eating of the Tree?
3. You say the repentance of “grievous” sin needs to be repented of to regain one’s Salvation… What non-Mortal Sins or non-grievous sins could Adam have committed that would have kept him in the Garden with God?
******************
1. I believe that the greater the sin, the greater the punishment. Matthew 5:22, Matthew 7:3-4, Luke 12:43-48
2. God is perfect. He gave Adam a perfect test. Since, this test was perfect, there is no room for any other test possible. 2 Samuel 22:31, Isaiah 55:9
3. See answer 2.
doing good is good in and of itself, but that said
i’d submit another thot on works that will not go over well with anyone who has posted here so far IMO
if it is my fleshly attempt to ‘be good’ it’s a nice thing, but has no eternal value – by the way, it’s much easier for some of us than others…
if we focus on doing good works and not sinning it will take all our efforts; we’ll rely on our own judgement and it will make the devil very happy as it will leave precious little time or energy to grow nearer to and deeper in understanding our beloved Savior
what we can be sure of, is that when we focus on Christ, make Him and the Kingdom the primary focus of our lives (harder to do than i’d like to think it is) the true good works will flow – the more we grow strong in the Lord (fine tuning our spiritual acumen in the process) the more of God’s own work is done thru us; and that aforementioned Royal Law will be fulfilled by default
get close to Him and the good (fireproof) works will flow
just sayin – again
Believe,
Did sin enter the world because Adam ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil…or because Adam disobeyed God?
*********************
Adam disobeyed God. This was his sin. When he was forced out of the Garden of Eden because of his sin, he entered into a sinful world ruled by Satan. Ephesians 2:2
When the angels sinned, sin entered the world because the disobedient angels were thrown out of God’s presence Revelation 12:7-8, Ephesians 6:12, some down to earth Revelation 12:13, and some into Hades. 2 Peter 2:4
SHW, when you post more than three links in one comment, that comment goes directly into the spam filter…if a moderator is not on at the time your post will sit there until it can be freed….just giving you a heads up…I’ve been fishing all morning…
Believe,
SHW…better stated: Had Adam not eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil…yet disobeyed another instruction of God…would sin have entered the world?
*****************
Sin did not enter the world (all of earth except Garden of Eden) because Adam sinned. Adam was forced out of the Garden of Eden (nothing impure can be in paradise) and thereby forced to enter into the world which was ruled by Satan. Satan was already ruler of the earth before Adam sinned. When Adam sinned he entered into the domain of Satan.
***
This was my reply to #146. I will get your questions answered. I am trying to do them in order so that I don’t miss any questions. 🙂
Be back later….
I think I finally understand the concept of “a different gospel”
London,
Share…
“¶ Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.”
(Romans 5:12–13 ESV)
Clearly states that sin came into the world through Adam.
Period.
“Christ atoned for all my sins…past, present, and future.
I need add nothing to the Cross.”
RIGHT ON!!!!!!!
amen Michael…
Believe pondered if sin could have entered through another action on Adam’s part – isn’t the scripture pretty clear that Adam disobeyed God (as far as we know the instruction was: don’t eat that fruit over there) and then sin entered into the world … i truly don’t think we have a good grasp on the concept of sin – IMV – the individual acts are simply manifestations of a condition (a really, really bad condition)
London,
Share…
😯 😉
Can’t quite yet articulate it
Michael,
>>Christ atoned for all my sins…past, present, and future.
>>I need add nothing to the Cross.
EXACTLY!!! Colossians 2:13 (NASB95)
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Hebrews 10:14 (NASB95)
14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
“Satan was already ruler of the earth before Adam sinned. When Adam sinned he entered into the domain of Satan.”
You have got to be kidding me? This is a joke right?
All any of us know about the origin and creation of the earth and man (outside of scientific research) is what is written in the scriptures and this was definitely not written in the scriptures.
If this is truly the doctrinal position of RCC, EO or any other denomination, no wonder in a world of enlightenment people run from them.
I might as well take the time honored 🙁 Joel Osteen, Word Faith position that the reason why Satan came to Eve was to take dominion of the earth from them. Which scripture does say God gave them, rule over all the earth. Gen 1:26-28.
Maybe I’ll become a Mason, at least they get to drive cool little cars and wears hats with Egyptian symbols on them.
SHW:
Just so you know Eph 2:2 does not say what you implied/proof texted.
Rev 12:7-8, 13 and Eph. 6:12 are also not talking about the creation of the earth or that time period.
In your world who controls hell or Hades and in Rev 1:18 it says Jesus (I think we can agree that is who is speaking here) holds the keys to death and Hades. Does this mean there is an actual physical lock on these two things? Also who kills and who sends people to Hades?
“(nothing impure can be in paradise)”
Was the Serpent pure?
Bob-
You may want to switch to decaf
SHW – you have talked many times on here about the types of sin people after they have been baptised need to avoid in order to some how make sure they get eternal life.
So far, all your examples, at least the ones that I’ve seen, have to do with things in the negative ie don’t have sex with someone outside of marriage, don’t lie, don’t kill….all those 10 commandment things.
What I haven’t seen addressed on here by anyone is the commandments we’re to follow that are, what I’m going to call, positive. Things like bind the brokenhearted, feed the hungry, visit those in prision, clothe the naked…all that stuff Jesus said he’d come to do and which we’re called to do as well.
So far, it appears that you believe that if we’ll just avoid the “bad things” then we’ll be ok.
But, that’s not what Jesus says to his disciples when he’s talking about “I was in prision and you did not visit me, I was hungy and you did not feed me….”
Seems to me that any type of belief system that merely says “avoid the bad” without saying “do the good” is missing the mark of what Jesus is saying all along and thus can not be trusted to be a correct intrepretation of the bible.
rambling…
Luth,
The term ‘catholic’ when used by the Early Church meant “that which is believed everywhere and by all.” It had nothing to do with the later Roman (Catholic) Church. How could it? The Roman Catholic Church didn’t exist until the fourth century.
“The rapid emergence of the Roman see as a pre-eminent centre of both leadership and jurisdicial authority is a striking feature of the life of the Western churches from the second half of the fourth century onwards.” (The Early Church, Henry Chadwick, Reguis Professor at Oxford and Cambridge).
To be a catholic Christian is not defined by institution, but by confession. For example, Lutherans consider themselves catholic Christians because they accept the beliefs Creeds common to all of Christendom as shown in the Nicene and Apostles Creeds.
*********************
By the time the twelve apostles died, the Christian faith had been preached throughout the whole known world. Romans 1:8
Catholic means universal. Christ’s Church was already called the Catholic Church before the first century ended and this is because its faith had already encompassed the whole known world at that time.
Ignatius, the third bishop of Antioch referred to Christ’s Church as the Catholic Church in his letters: “Ignatius, the third bishop of Antioch: During the reign of Emperor Trajan (98 A.D.-117 A.D.) Ignatius was taken to Rome to be executed. The exact year of the journey is uncertain, but most scholars estimate it was around 107 A.D. or 110 A.D. On the way to his death, Ignatius wrote letters to churches he was passing by or through. In his letter to the church of Smyrna, he wrote: “Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”[Epistle to the Smyrneans 8:2.].”
Helena was the mother of Constantine. She was a Catholic Christian. She prayed and prayed for her son and by God’s grace, Constantine eventually converted to the Catholic Church. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_and_Christianity
The Catholic Church existed before Constantine and this same Catholic Church existed after Constantine converted. The gates of Hades cannot possibly prevail against Christ’s Catholic Church. Matthew 16:17-19 No man can change the doctrines of His Church.
Because the Reformers believed that they had the authority to change God’s Church, they “borrowed” the name of His Church and applied it to themselves and to their new doctrine. Constantine had no part in matters of Catholic Church doctrine since it is only the pope and bishops in communion with him who have the authority to determine Catholic Church dogma and this is done with the Holy Spirit’s guidance. John 16:12-14
In the Council of Trent documents, the Church is called Catholic Church. This is its official name and had been for centuries.
Here is part of one of the documents of the Council of Trent:
“Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. VIII
When the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, “without which it is impossible to please God” and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, “if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise,” as the Apostle says, “grace is no more grace.”
Since the Reformers chose to think of themselves as catholic, in order to differentiate between their own catholic beliefs and the Catholic Church’s beliefs, they started calling the Catholic Church the Roman Catholic Church and this was because its headquarters was in Rome.
Now, many persons who belong to the Latin Rite (Roman Rite) of the Catholic Church call themselves Roman Catholics, but that is not its official name. Most people today do not even know that there are several different rites that belong to this same Catholic Church. Examples are Byzantine Rite and Alexandrian Rite. All Rites of the Catholic Church have equal dignity and equal value.
Jesus is the head of the church. Not the pope.
“-even as Christ is the head of the church-”
(Eph 5:23)
“And He is the Head of the body, the church,
who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things.”
(Col 1:18)
MLD,
Well, at least from this conversation with SHW we can see what Luther was arguing against and we can see that the RCC has not changed anything. They are still works.
This is the reason that the Catholic Church says that non Christians who do the good works can still have a place in God’s kingdom. According to Vatican 2 dogma, there is a great possibility that the Dali Lama is “in” – but Luther is definitely “out”
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Salvation and entry into eternal life is achieved by Faith plus works. Faith first. Works must follow. Faith working through love. Galatians 5:6
Dead faith (faith alone) does not save. We are foolish if we think differently. James 2:20-26
So, I will be like Paul, working out my own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12 I will try to love my neighbor in the most perfect manner. 1 Timothy 4:16
Heathens and salvation:
Romans 2:14-16
or when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Heathens, called Gentiles, who do the best they can do with what they are given are saved. Heathens who do evil to their neighbors are not saved. Jesus died as a ransom for all men whether they lived and died before Jesus’ sacrifice or lived and died after His sacrifice.
God loves His creation and He desires for all men to be saved and according to Paul, these heathens can be saved. It is more difficult for them to be saved since they do not receive the many graces that Christians receive through baptism, etc.
God will judge Luther justly just as He will judge all of us justly.
Loads of crap being spread here…a first year church history student , even at a Catholic seminary, would reject the history being given by SHW.
revised my FB Religious Views:
“if it doesn’t show in how I act then it doesn’t matter…”
I agree with London, what about all the :: positive stuff :: that Jesus said we should be about that brings tangible benefit to individuals, encouragement, proof of God’s existence because a human touched another human and showed what Jesus’ love looks like somewhere other than in The Book?
I also agree, JESUS is the “head” of the church, not the Pope (and not any person, ever).
This has been a weird thread because of all the theological and doctrinal volleying, like a tennis match, at least without Serena Williams’ odd manner of dress 😉
So, at the end of all these discussions, is anyone free, joyful, dancing, singing? Anything beautiful created? Anyone fed? Healed?
here’s a little art to make your day nicer
http://www.grendalhanks.com/grendalHanks.com/gBlog/Entries/2010/6/9_Props_to_JT.html
“if anyone is happy, let them sing a song”
JT makes me happy and I love his voice, his guitar playing, and the joy of music.
Like the old campfire song says, “pass it on…”
When I was but a wee young lad, raised Roman Catholic, I heard this song while I was gaining a personal hunger for God.
I asked one of the parish priests about God and he told me that if I look at Jesus I will know all I need to know about God.
1971, that was the same year this song hit the airwaves, and my CCD teacher encouraged me to imagine Jesus singing this to us. She would be skewered by the current crop of wearisome ODMs but a bunch of us kids in that parish ended up becoming followers of Jesus and lovers of Him and His people because of a simple foundational starting point, that we could be friends with God in addition to being “servants of God”
When you’re down and troubled
And you need a helping hand
And nothing, nothing is going right.
Close your eyes and think of Me
And soon I will be there
To brighten up even your darkest nights.
You just call out My Name,
And you know where ever I am
I’ll come running,
To see you again.
Winter, spring , summer, or fall,
All you have to do is call
And I’ll be there
You’ve got a Freind.
If the sky above you
Should turn dark and full of clouds
And that old north wind should begin to blow
Keep your head together and call My Name out loud
And soon I will be knocking upon your door.
You just call out My Name and you know where ever I am
I’ll come running to see you again.
Winter, Spring, summer or fall
All you got to do is call
And I’ll be there…
Hey, ain’t it good to know that you’ve got a Friend?
People can be so cold.
They’ll hurt you and desert you.
Well they’ll take your soul if you let them.
Oh yeah, but don’t you let them.
You just call out My Name and you know wherever I am
I’ll come running to see you again.
…don’t you know that,
Winter Spring summer or fall,
Hey now, all you’ve got to do is call.
And, I’ll be there, yes I will.
You’ve got a Friend.
You’ve got a Friend.
Ain’t it good to know you’ve got a Friend.
Ain’t it good to know you’ve got a Friend.
You’ve got a Friend.
It’s just that it’s so hard to argue with bullet points.
By the time you get an answer to one, with context included, there’s 6,000 more.
Not that it’s SHW’s fault because she is doing a great job of answering as many questions as possible.
Using G’s example of tennis volleys, it’s more like those cartoons where a million tennis balls come out of the launcher at once.
Believe,
SWH…do you believe that the Holy Spirit indwells a person who is saved?
Assuming yes…
1. If the Holy Spirit is also God…a part of the Trinity…and God cannot dwell with sin…then how can one commit a non-Mortal sin…and have the Holy Spirit remain in them?
2. How does one stay Justified while committing Venial Sins…yet loses their Justification for Mortal Sins?
3. In the Garden when Adam and Eve sinned…how did they know they were committing a Mortal Sin by disobeying God…if they hadn’t yet ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
“Venial sin is a sin of lesser matter than grave sin. It can also be a sin of grave matter in which the sinner did not fully consent to the sin or did not have knowledge that his actions where sinful. Venial sins will not destroy grace in the soul, and will not directly cause a person who dies in the state of venial sin to lose the promise of heaven. Yet, venial sin weakens a person’s will to avoid evil and thus may indirectly lead to mortal sin. Regardless, all sin is an offense against God and should be avoided.”
4. Is it Venial Sin to disobey one of God’s commands…if you don’t have the knowledge that a particular command is sin?
5. A mentally ill person…if they commit murder…is it counted as Mortal Sin to them or Venial Sin?
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1. Venial sin grieves the Holy Spirit, but does not cause Him to leave your temple/soul. Ephesians 4:30
2. Mortal sin insults the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 10:29-30 The Holy Spirit does not remain in a defiled temple. 1 Corinthians 3:16-18
3. Their intellect was much greater than ours since they were not born into sin. Eve was deceived, Adam was not. Adam chose to please Eve instead of to obey God. He knew he was disobeying God when he chose to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The angels also were created without sin, yet one-third of them chose to disobey God.
4. and 5. This is getting too technical for me! I am really not qualified to answer. 🙂
Remember that God knows all things. He knows whether a person would choose to obey Him or not if given the opportunity to choose.
Centorian,
lol!!! well, what else would we expect from Romanism? They are loaded with false doctrine. Indulgences, Marianism, apostolic succession, celebacy requirements of clergy (that one has worked real well for them, hasn’t it?), purgatory, transubstantiation …….etc, etc etc….
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So, do you think that it would be normal for all men who cannot find a woman to marry them, but who want to get married, to go out and molest little boys or teens?
Normal men do not molest members of the same sex. Celibacy is not the issue here.
Pedophilia and homosexuality are grave sins.
“normal” (your term) men do not molest any body, regardless of gender or age.
SHW said:
Since the Orthodox Catholic Churches also have valid sacraments and valid ordinations (they can also trace their ordinations (laying on of hands) 1 Timothy 4:14 back to the apostles), their priests can do all the same things that a Catholic priest can do. Orthodox Catholics do not accept the pope as head of the Church so they are said to be in schism with the Catholic Church. They disagree with the Catholic Church’s doctrine regarding the procession of the Holy Spirit.
This is quite accurate.
http://www.nakedpastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/i-am.jpg
JimB,
SHW,
1) You misunderstand the scriptures, we are all priests in Christ:
1 Peter 2:9 (NASB95)
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
2) There is no intermediary for us to go through to get to God there is just one mediator to God and that is Jesus Christ:
1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB95)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
3) You are deluded thinking that there are different breakdowns of sins, and that some are worse than others and some sins are venial and some are mortal, when you break any commandment you in a sense have broken them all:
James 2:10 (NASB95)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
4) You as a RCC believe in the infallibility of the pope, yet you ought to search the papal edicts throughout history and you will find that many contradict each other and that some are downright blasphemous. The history of the papacy is one of the most corrupt things you can study about. On the other hand God says that He never changes, His word never returns void, He is holy and just in all that He does, and that He never has or needs to repent for His actions. You would be wise to put your trust in God and His word and not in man. His word is sufficient also for all that you need in life:
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NASB95)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
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1. Yes, we are all priests, but there is also a sacramental priesthood. These priests are either bishops or presbyters/elders (priest is English for presbyter). They receive the laying on of hands. 1 Timothy 4:14
Main Entry: pres·by·ter
Pronunciation: ˈprez-bə-tər, ˈpres-
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin, elder, priest, from Greek presbyteros, comparative of presbys old man, elder; akin to Greek pro before and Greek bainein to go — more at for, come
Date: 1597
1 : a member of the governing body of an early Christian church
2 : a member of the order of priests in churches having episcopal hierarchies that include bishops, priests, and deacons
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2. Jesus is the One Mediator, but there are many intercessors. *Acts 28:8*, *James 5:14*, *1 Timothy 2:1-2*
3. Matthew 5:22
RE: “10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.”
James is stating that even if you only commit one sin, you will be judged as a transgressor of the royal law of love. He is not talking about the Law of Moses.
“All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.” *1 John 5:17*
4. I put my trust in Jesus’ gospel entrusted to His Church which He built upon Peter, the apostles, and prophets with Himself as Chief Cornerstone and I have documented this in previous posts. *Hebrews 13:7-17* *1 Timothy 5:17*
The truth of Jesus’ Church does not depend upon the sanctity of its members. What is amazing is that even though there were many horrible popes, bishops, and priests who sinned grievous sins; the Holy Spirit prevented them from teaching error. If these evil persons did not repent before death, then they will also be punished in hell like Judas.
Your understanding of the documents of the Catholic Church is different than mine and so we will agree to disagree.
Dusty,
SHW, when you post more than three links in one comment, that comment goes directly into the spam filter…if a moderator is not on at the time your post will sit there until it can be freed….just giving you a heads up…I’ve been fishing all morning…
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Thank you for the 411. I don’t see any way to get around this, do you know of any?
I tried putting * * around Scripture quotes to prevent linking, but it still links them to ESV.
SHW,
“God will judge Luther justly just as He will judge all of us justly.”
I agree, but you have been making the case that the Church can pronounce judgment, and as Trent has (see below) – note that the Church begins each Canon with “if anyone…” I know hat Luther believed those items and so do I, hence the Church has already made the judgment – anathema!!!!
At the same time, the Church has declared “VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI. ”
and the catechism #1260 states “1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.”
So, according to RCC dogma, the ‘good’ Muslim and the ‘good’ Hindu receive God’s grace and reward – and the ‘good Lutheran is to be declared “anathema”
Canon 9 If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema (cursed).
Canon 11 If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice (righteousness) of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and remains in them, or also that the grace by which we are justified is only the good will of God, let him be anathema.
Canon 12 If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.
Canon 14 If anyone says that a man is absolved from his sins and justified because he firmly believes that he is absolved and justified, or that no one is truly justified except him who believes himself justified and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are effected, let him be anathema.
Canon 18 If anyone says that the commandments of God are, even for the one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to observe, let him be anathema.
Canon 24 If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.
Canon 32 If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit an increase of grace, eternal life, and in case he dies in grace, the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema.
Bob,
“Satan was already ruler of the earth before Adam sinned. When Adam sinned he entered into the domain of Satan.”
You have got to be kidding me? This is a joke right?
All any of us know about the origin and creation of the earth and man (outside of scientific research) is what is written in the scriptures and this was definitely not written in the scriptures.
If this is truly the doctrinal position of RCC, EO or any other denomination, no wonder in a world of enlightenment people run from them.
I might as well take the time honored 🙁 Joel Osteen, Word Faith position that the reason why Satan came to Eve was to take dominion of the earth from them. Which scripture does say God gave them, rule over all the earth. Gen 1:26-28.
Maybe I’ll become a Mason, at least they get to drive cool little cars and wears hats with Egyptian symbols on them.
****************
Yes, mankind was created to have dominion over the earth, but then man sinned and got kicked out of the garden. How much dominion does mankind actually have now?
Now, because of Adam’s sin, mankind has to deal with the demons:
Ephesians 6:12 “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
1 Corinthians 5:4-6, Mark 1:11-13
Revelation 2:13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.”
What or Who do you think causes the storms and other disturbances on the earth? Perhaps it is the demons.
wow
Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said,(W) “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil”
How did Adam know it was evil to disobey God’s command when he made the decision to disobey? When he made the decision in his “intellectual” mind he did not possess the Knowledge of Good and Evil…”the dictates of conscience”…did he?
Adam knew “after” he ate of the fruit that he had sinned…but not when he made the decision to disobey…he couldn’t have….could he? He didn’t have the Knowledge of Good and Evil when the decision to eat of the Tree was made. It wasn’t until he completed the action that he received the Knowledge of Good and Evil…am I wrong?
Taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
“Moral evil is found only in intelligent beings; it deprives them of some moral good. Here we have to deal with moral evil only. This may be defined as a privation of conformity to right reason and to the law of God. Since the morality of a human act consists in its agreement or non-agreement with right reason and the eternal law, an act is good or evil in the moral order according as it involves this agreement or non-agreement. When the intelligent creature, knowing God and His law, deliberately refuses to obey, moral evil results.
Sin is nothing else than a morally bad act (St. Thomas, “De malo”, 7:3), an act not in accord with reason informed by the Divine law. God has endowed us with reason and free-will, and a sense of responsibility; He has made us subject to His law, which is known to us by the dictates of conscience, and our acts must conform with these dictates, otherwise we sin.”
And:
“This is impossible because evil as such is not contained within the scope of the adequate object of the will, which is good.”
If the “will, which is good”…and…Adam didn’t possess the Knowledge of Good and Evil when he made the decision to eat of the Tree…then how could it be counted as Mortal Sin for Adam to eat of the Tree?
And,
If the “will, which is good”…and…Adam was created without sin…then how did he possess the ability to sin? The devil tempted him…but if the “will, which is good” is good…and Adam was intelligent yet had no Knowledge of Good and Evil…yet he “sinned”…and thus brought sin upon all of mankind…?
There is an inconsistency here…especially with regards to hierarchy of sin…and one having to necessarily “know” a matter is evil/sin for it to be counted as damning sin to them.
In Catholicism…Mortal vs. Venial…there is a distinction between “knowing” through conscience something is sin…vs. not “knowing” you committed a sin…or sins of omission. Yet sins of omission are commandments of God are they not?
So, how could Adam have committed a Mortal Sin…if he had no Knowledge of Good and Evil…unless sin is sin regardless of “knowing” and regardless of “conscience”…sin is anything that disobeys God’s commandment…in the case with Adam…God told him not to eat of the Tree…and Adam…without Knowledge of Good and Evil…made the decision to disobey God…without yet possessing a conscience…and it was still counted to him as Mortal Sin…and God could no longer dwell with him in the Garden and gave him the boot.
Likewise, how can the Holy Spirit…who is also God…dwell within a Catholic Believer…who commits “Venial” sin…by commission or omission? All sin would have to be Mortal Sin to be consistent with the example of Adam. If there was not enough grace for Adam’s decision to eat of the Tree…how could there be partial grace for the slightest decision made contrary to any of God’s commands…whether “known” or not…?
Here is Catholicisms explanation of Conscience (notice the equivocation and hedging at the outset…a tell for an uncertain and weak position):
“What conscience is in the soul of man?
It is often a good maxim not to mind for a time how a thing came to be, but to see what it actually is. To do so in regard to conscience before we take up the history of philosophy in its regard is wise policy, for it will give us some clear doctrine upon which to lay hold, while we travel through a region perplexed by much confusion of thought. The following points are cardinal:
* The natural conscience is no distinct faculty, but the one intellect of a man inasmuch as it considers right and wrong in conduct, aided meanwhile by a good will, by the use of the emotions, by the practical experience of living, and by all external helps that are to the purpose.
* The natural conscience of the Christian is known by him to act not alone, but under the enlightenment and the impulse derived from revelation and grace in a strictly supernatural order.
* As to the order of nature, which does not exist but which might have existed, St. Thomas (I-II:109:3) teaches that both for the knowledge of God and for the knowledge of moral duty, men such as we are would require some assistance from God to make their knowledge sufficiently extensive, clear, constant, effective, and relatively adequate; and especially to put it within reach of those who are much engrossed with the cares of material life. It would be absurd to suppose that in the order of nature God could be debarred from any revelation of Himself, and would leave Himself to be searched for quite irresponsively.
* Being a practical thing, conscience depends in large measure for its correctness upon the good use of it and on proper care taken to heed its deliverances, cultivate its powers, and frustrate its enemies.
* Even where due diligence is employed conscience will err sometimes, but its inculpable mistakes will be admitted by God to be not blameworthy. These are so many principles needed to steady us as we tread some of the ways of ethical history, where pitfalls are many.”
Conscience can not be a determinant for categorizing sin…since Adam had no Knowledge of Good and Evil when he ate of the Tree.
Adam could not “get himself” back into the Garden…even though he made the decision to disobey God with a “good will” and without the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Sin is disobedience to God’s Law…God’s Word…God’s command…and any one sin is enough to separate one from God…and get one “booted” out of the Garden…Venial, Mortal, commission, omission…you name it.
Had God told Adam to hop up and down on one leg…and Adam disobeyed…he would have been booted out of the Garden as well.
Otherwise…it was gaining the Knowledge of Good and Evil that was the sin…the act…not the decision to disobey…that got Adam booted from the Garden.
….meaning Adam could have disobeyed God all he wanted as long as he didn’t gain the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Better stated…it was not the gaining of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that got Adam separated from God…it was his decision…formed in his mind…his decision to rebel against God’s command…made with his will and without the Knowledge of Good and Evil…that got him booted.
Bob,
SHW:
1. Just so you know Eph 2:2 does not say what you implied/proof texted.
Rev 12:7-8, 13 and Eph. 6:12 are also not talking about the creation of the earth or that time period.
2. In your world who controls hell or Hades and in Rev 1:18 it says Jesus (I think we can agree that is who is speaking here) holds the keys to death and Hades. Does this mean there is an actual physical lock on these two things?
3. Also who kills and who sends people to Hades?
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1. We will agree to have differing opinions. 🙂
2. First, Jesus has control of the keys. They are His. Then, He gives them to Peter because He can no longer remain physically with His Church on earth (since He needs to return to His Father in heaven until His Second Coming). When He comes back at His Second Coming to take His Church to heaven, He receives the keys back because now He will always be physically with His Church forever in heaven.
I read somewhere that in the time period of Jesus’ walk on earth, the Jews believed that there was a physical entrance from the earth to Hades. But, I personally have no clue. 🙂
3. God. Luke 12:4-5 God is sovereign. God created man, therefore He has the right to kill him physically and also to condemn him to hell.
Believe,
“(nothing impure can be in paradise)”
Was the Serpent pure?
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I knew that would be your next question!!! 🙂
I should have said “remain in Paradise.”
So, why was Satan allowed into the Garden of Eden?
He was allowed into Eden in order to tempt Adam and Eve. However, he was prevented from remaining there after he tempted them. Genesis 3:14, Genesis 3:24
God cannot tempt persons to do evil and this is because He is Perfect, Good. Matthew 5:48, Matthew 19:17
James 1:13 “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.”
God’s permissive will allows demons to tempt man in order to see if they will remain steadfast in obedience to Him until the end of their lives.
The demons always remain true to their fallen nature; they hate God and all His creation.
Revelation 3:4 “You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.”
These people did not defile their baptismal garments with mortal sins and so they will be approved to enter into eternal life when they die; this is assuming their garments remain undefiled until death. Luke 21:36, Luke 20:34-36
London,
SHW – you have talked many times on here about the types of sin people after they have been baptised need to avoid in order to some how make sure they get eternal life.
So far, all your examples, at least the ones that I’ve seen, have to do with things in the negative ie don’t have sex with someone outside of marriage, don’t lie, don’t kill….all those 10 commandment things.
What I haven’t seen addressed on here by anyone is the commandments we’re to follow that are, what I’m going to call, positive. Things like bind the brokenhearted, feed the hungry, visit those in prision, clothe the naked…all that stuff Jesus said he’d come to do and which we’re called to do as well.
So far, it appears that you believe that if we’ll just avoid the “bad things” then we’ll be ok.
But, that’s not what Jesus says to his disciples when he’s talking about “I was in prision and you did not visit me, I was hungy and you did not feed me….”
Seems to me that any type of belief system that merely says “avoid the bad” without saying “do the good” is missing the mark of what Jesus is saying all along and thus can not be trusted to be a correct intrepretation of the bible.
***********
I was answering specific questions so it does look unbalanced. However, I do agree with you. God is very pleased when we do good to our neighbor. 🙂 Doing good gains much more merit (treasure in heaven) than does refraining from evil. Mark 10:21
London,
Jesus is the head of the church. Not the pope.
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Yes, Jesus is the supreme head of His Church. We are His body. Colossians 1:18
The pope is Christ’s representative on earth. Christ, as supreme head of His Church, personally chose to build His Church upon Peter, the apostles, and the prophets as Its foundation with Himself as Chief Cornerstone as I have documented in other posts.
1 Corinthians 3:10 “According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.”
London,
“normal” (your term) men do not molest any body, regardless of gender or age.
*****
You are correct.
I was specifically addressing the issue of celibacy because Centorian implied that if these priests were allowed to marry, then they would not molest male children and male teens.
Michael,
Loads of crap being spread here…a first year church history student , even at a Catholic seminary, would reject the history being given by SHW.
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God will judge me justly.
I am waiting for an answer to my questions. Perhaps you already answered them and I just did not see your answers. Here they are again:
Jesus states that we must obey His commandments in order to inherit eternal life. So, why does your doctrine ignore this teaching?
Matthew 19:16-19 “Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
Luke 10:25-28 “And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
These persons asked Jesus specifically what they must do in order to inherit eternal life.
How did He answer them? He answered them specifically:
“If you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments.”
“Do this and you will live.” (Keep/obey these commandments and you will inherit eternal life.)
I do not think that it can possibly be stated any plainer than this.
The reverse is also true:
If you do not want to enter into eternal life, don’t keep the commandments.
Also, please explain this verse:
1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
All of those commandments were before the completion of Christs’s works which included fulfilling all the of the commandments perfectly in my place.
HIS obedience, HIS righteousness…all were imputed to me when I believed in His death and resurrection in my place.
My salvation is ALL of God, NOTHING of my filthy works contribute, ALL of my sins have been paid for in HIS blood and HE has promised that HE will finish the work HE started in me.
All glory to God…for He has saved His people to the uttermost.
I’m out of patience with this heresy now.
MLD,
So, according to RCC dogma, the ‘good’ Muslim and the ‘good’ Hindu receive God’s grace and reward – and the ‘good Lutheran is to be declared “anathema”
The Council of Trent addressed the subject of heresy. 2 Peter 2:1
Anathemas are strong warnings. Galatians 1:9
Only God judges the person’s soul and it is at the time of his death.
If a person sincerely believes that he is living the truth in his own church and God has not shown him any different, then God judges according to this person’s sincerity, not his doctrine.
Saul/Paul, a good Jew, participated in the murder and persecution of Christians because he believed that he was pleasing God. He did not know any better. Philippians 3:1-8
Did God condemn Saul? No.
So, MLD, unless God makes it known to you that you should join another church, you should remain just where you are in the Lutheran Church. 🙂
MLD:
‘So, according to RCC dogma, the ‘good’ Muslim and the ‘good’ Hindu receive God’s grace and reward – and the ‘good Lutheran is to be declared “anathema.’
Sweet. Just sweet.
This explains much bloody church history that the RCC carried out against Lutherans and other Protestants.
Michael,
All of those commandments were before the completion of Christs’s works which included fulfilling all the of the commandments perfectly in my place.
HIS obedience, HIS righteousness…all were imputed to me when I believed in His death and resurrection in my place.
My salvation is ALL of God, NOTHING of my filthy works contribute, ALL of my sins have been paid for in HIS blood and HE has promised that HE will finish the work HE started in me.
All glory to God…for He has saved His people to the uttermost.
I’m out of patience with this heresy now.
**********
1 Timothy 4:16 was written AFTER Christ’s death on the cross.
“Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
Believe,
SHW…when did man get his conscience?
When he ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
Or was man created with his “conscience” prior to eating of the Tree?
**********
When he was created. A person’s conscience is what gives him the ability to choose between good and evil.
Believe,
Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said,(W) “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil”
How did Adam know it was evil to disobey God’s command when he made the decision to disobey? When he made the decision in his “intellectual” mind he did not possess the Knowledge of Good and Evil…”the dictates of conscience”…did he?
************
Please forgive me for not reading all that you posted about conscience. I get brain freeze when I try to understand scholarly writings such as those. 🙂
Perhaps he did not have a conscience yet. Your guess is as good as mine!
Adam chose to please Eve rather than to obey God. He did not know what the consequences would be, otherwise I am sure, he would not have eaten that piece of fruit. 🙂
SHW, my suggestion for keeping your posts out of the spam filter is to try to limit the number of links…I understand this is not always possible when you want to back up your point with many scripture verses….so it is up to you what you do. I only wanted you to be aware that we will not always be here to pull them out of spam.
another suggestion I would like to offer is that you don’t have to quote everyone’s WHOLE post…if people are reading along they will get the idea if you make reference to the post author / number or time…
SHW,
“If a person sincerely believes that he is living the truth in his own church ”
No, that is not what the Pope and the Catechism said – they said that any NON BELIEVER who lives a peaceful life is saved – “Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, …”
They are talking about practicing Muslim, Hindus, Jews etc. This is why the Roman Catholic Church is all about works – according to the Pope and the Catechism, not your beliefs at all but just your works that will save you.
How does that sit with you that you don’t even need to believe in Jesus as Messiah?
Believe,
Actually, your guess is most likely better than mine!
SHW,
BTW, I have listened to Patrick Madrid make this very point several times.
SHW –
“Doing good gains much more merit (treasure in heaven) than does refraining from evil. Mark 10:21”
I’m a pretty visual person, so when folks say stuff like this, I get an image in my head of an old man on a big old throne with piles of coins around him like Scrooge McDuck, taking some off the balance every time we do bad and putting them on when we do good.
That’s not only non scriptural, it’s just plain silly. God is not an accountant.
He doesn’t have a giant score board up in heaven marking down every single thing we do or not too and then tallying it all up in the end, right at the moment we die, to see what the score was.
I don’t know alot….but I do know that!
Just curious —
Are there any ex-Catholics on here who are having nightmares and PTSD-like experiences from trudging through SHW’s brand of Catholicism?
No SHA, Jesus is head of the church. period.
King of the kingdom and all that.
The pope is only in charge of the Catholic Church. We owe zero alligenance to him and all the allegience to Christ, the one true King of heaven and earth.
The pope is no more a representative of Christ on earth than I am or anyone else that claims to be a christian. It’s just not biblical nor does it even make sense to think that Jesus literally had a set of physical keys that he handed to Peter and said…”here, watch these till I get back would ya?”
This has been an interesting thread. At least I understand a bit more about what the RCC teaches and why people get so upset by it.
Luth,
This explains much bloody church history that the RCC carried out against Lutherans and other Protestants.
***********
No, and it also does not explain the much bloody church history that the Reformed Protestants carried out against the Catholics.
Torture and Capital Punishment
In past cultures, both civil authorities and religious authorities regarded heresy as a terrible crime and it was punishable by torture and death. Some used these punishments as a means to “persuade” heretics to recant their heretical beliefs in order to save their souls and also to prevent them from leading others astray by their heretical teachings.
Torture and killing have a long track record of “acceptance” starting with the Israelites, who at God’s command, killed the inhabitants of the promised lands which God gave them, in order to prevent the Israelites from adopting the pagan beliefs of the people in the lands that they conquered and also as punishment for the sins of the pagans in the lands that they conquered.
1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
We see another example in the Jew Saul, a devout Pharisee, who later became St. Paul. He tortured and killed the early Christians. This was done to keep the Jewish religion “pure” and free from heresy.
Acts 26:9-11
9 “Indeed, I (Paul/Saul) myself thought I must do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. 11 And I punished them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.
Unfortunately, civil authorities and some members of the Church also later continued this “legacy” of capital punishment for heresy until it was finally outlawed in the 1800’s. Until then, heresy was a capital offense punishable by death. Protestant reformers also killed Catholics and others as punishment for this same reason.
According to Scripture, anyone who committed heresy (taught a different gospel other than the apostles) was accursed.
Galatians 1:9
As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
2 Peter 2
In order to prevent heretics from continuing to believe in and/or teach heresy, they used torture and also threatened death and also killed in order to try to persuade them to recant of their heresy and thereby save their souls.
They thought it necessary to use torture and death in order to save the souls of heretics.
Mark 9:42-48
“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
Matthew 18:33-35
Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
It is not prudent to use our present 21st century standards to judge ancient Jewish and past Christian (Catholic and Protestant) punishments for heresy. This is what they learned from their predecessors and they continued it until it was finally outlawed in all the “civilized” countries.
It was done in good faith in order to prevent a greater evil “heresy” which renders a person’s soul lost for eternity if he does not repent before death. Saving souls was the most important thing to them. How they are saved was not.
It is difficult for us to understand their way of thinking since we were never immersed in their beliefs about torture and capital punishment which they learned from those before them and those persons learned from those before them, all the way back to God commanding the Israelites to kill those persons who did not believe as they did.
Dusty,
Thanks for the info. 🙂
SHW, are you cutting and pasting your comments from other sites?
SHW,… 🙁 I just found a site that has much of what you have posted here… word for word…what is up?
MLD,
How does that sit with you that you don’t even need to believe in Jesus as Messiah?
**************
Abel did not believe in Jesus as Messiah, neither did Noah, etc., and yet Noah and others were righteous. They lived before Abraham was chosen by God. Genesis 7:1
Cornelius was a Gentile and he was righteous. Acts 10:29-31
We do not understand God’s ways. Isaiah 55:9
MLD,
I”ll go with Patrick Madrid’s explanation from now on!
Dusty,
Please explain.
SHW, how do you know what you believe if you can’t use your own wording to defend it? I am really sad that you were doing that…but then again…you know everyone who has engaged in conversation with you have used their own knowledge of what they believe…not relying on someone else work/research to argue points. God’s word is solid in their hearts and minds.
SHW,
Are you really saying that murdering fellow believers, even if they’re deemed heretics, is acceptable before God? Really? Let me hear it from your lips. Don’t equivocate like you did in your last post.
I find it highly ironic that you cite the Bible when it fits your preconceived points of view, but you ignore its authority in the life of the church. Are you really saying that God wants His followers to kill other of his followers? Are we supposed to emulate every action recordded in Scripture? Again, don’t equivocate — yes or no? I shudder to think what the world would be like under your type of Catholicism. Would we even be allowed to read the Bible by ourselves.
Yes, there were Protestants who killed Catholics — and that’s shameful and horrific. But again, don’t play revisionist historian and equate the opposite.
Here’s some of the fine Catholic actions that have occurred in history — and this is only one time period!
‘In the 1100s, Arnold of Brescia was excommunicated, hanged and then burned. John Wycliffe of England translated the bible into English, and his followers were later hunted down and killed. John Hus from Prague was excommunicated then in 1415 he was captured and burned, despite the fact that he had a letter of safe passage from the Emperor.
But eventually the weight of the reformers grew strong enough to survive, but only at the cost of millions of lives as the Protestant Reformation battled the Catholic Counter Reformation in towns and fields throughout Europe. Martin Luther’s 95 theses, nailed to a church door, set off a fire storm of violence and blood. German princes managed to fight Catholic armies to standstill by 1555, which resulted in the Peace of Augsburg. Protestant “heretics” were allowed to live in Germany, but that level of tolerance was not extended to other countries.
Unfortunately, that “peace” didn’t last – from 1618 to 1648 Europe experienced The Thirty Years’ War which left Germany a wasteland after millions and millions were slaughtered. Catholic armies under the leadership of Catholic Emperor Ferdinand II kept defeating Protestant armies, but then made the mistake of trying to eliminate Protestantism completely, engaging in terrible repression and persecution…
Catholics Killing Protestants
In France, the largest Protestant group was known as the Huguenots. They were mercilessly persecuted, and King Henry created a heresy court known infamously as The Burning Chamber because that was the standard punishment for heretics. On the night of August 24, 1572 – known as St. Bartholomew’s Day – Catholic soldiers swept through Huguenot neighborhoods of Paris in a foreshadowing of what would happen to the Jews under Nazi rule.
Thousands were slaughtered in their homes and other massacres timed for the same night occurred in cities across France. In response to this, Pope Gregory XIII wrote to France’s King Charles IX: “We rejoice with you that with the help of God you have relieved the world of these wretched heretics.”
Pope Pius sent Catholic troops into France to aid in the repression efforts, ordering the army commander to kill all prisoners. Pius, unsurprisingly, was later canonized as a saint. In the Catholic Church, sainthood is an honor which goes not to the nicest person or to someone who has aided humanity, but to those Catholics who have done great deeds to advance the cause of Catholicism. As a result of such treatment, Huguenots fled France in large numbers. One group reached what would later become Florida – and when they were discovered by a Spanish expedition, all were killed.
In Flanders, all heretical Protestants were ordered executed and thousands were burned at the stake. But queen Mary was merciful to Protestants who recanted – instead of burning, the men would be killed by a sword and women buried alive. Philip II, Spanish king and also ruler of Holland and Belgium, was positively obsessed with eliminating Protestantism and ordered that all prisoners be killed so that there would be no chance that they might escape through neglect or mistakes. The Duke of Alva was sent in and began what became known as the “Spanish Fury” in which thousands of Antwerp Protestants were killed and almost all “heretics” in Haarlem were massacred.
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blfaq_viol_reformation.htm
explain?
ok
—————————————
SHW said,
“It is not prudent to use our present 21st century standards to judge ancient Jewish and past Christian (Catholic and Protestant) punishments for heresy. This is what they learned from their predecessors and they continued it until it was finally outlawed in all the “civilized” countries.”
—————————————–
Web site: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:l1FBzeoYyi0J:forums.catholic.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D283644%26page%3D17+%22It+is+not+prudent+to+use+our+present+21st+century+standards+to%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
said,
They thought it necessary to use torture and death in order to save the souls of heretics.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm
It is not prudent to use our present 21st century standards to judge ancient Jewish and past Christian (Catholic and Protestant) punishments for heresy. This is what they learned from their predecessors and they continued it until it was finally outlawed in all the “civilized” countries.
maybe I am wrong…maybe I am the only one who does not think this is right.
but I would really rather hear what everyone has to say for themselves…I could go to the other sites if I wanted to know what they think about any given subject.
I am SHW on that website. It is my post. 🙂
Luth, SHW,
Are you really saying that murdering fellow believers, even if they’re deemed heretics, is acceptable before God? Really? Let me hear it from your lips. Don’t equivocate like you did in your last post.
*********
Apparently it was since God told the Israelites to kill all the inhabitants of some lands.
Apparently it was since Saul, a devout Pharisee, murdered and persecuted Christians.
Do I personally think that Christians should now kill others in the name of God? No.
But, the Muslims today still believe that they should kill in the name of Allah/God and so they do.
glad it is your own work. I am sorry that I accused you of wrong. I am sorry.
it is still true that people here are VERY solid in their faith and beliefs. 😉
Dusty,
Well, I did cut and paste it from my own file on my computer, so you were partly correct!! 🙂
it was/is not acceptable before God to murder.
Apparently it was since God told the Israelites to kill all the inhabitants of some lands.
Apparently it was since Saul, a devout Pharisee, murdered and persecuted Christians.
SHW,
Are we Muslims? Because they kill, then we can, too? Wow.
You really need to read your Bible more closely. Context, context, context.
Old Covenant, New covenant.
Does the Bible ever commend what Saul did? No. Saul was spiritually blind until the Holy Spirit opened his eyes and after the Lord saved him, he no longer killed people.
Are we Muslims? Do they follow Jesus?
bella, as far as reinventing the wheel…what if a pastor or teacher grows in their faith? if they only use what they wrote years ago…then the new insight, wisdom gained through the years will be for nothing ‘cuz they are still using what they thought in the past…
how many of us still think the way we did when we were say 20? or even 5 years ago? haven’t we grown? learned? changed our thinking ‘cuz it was wrong?
bella, thanks. it is a picture of a yard statue that I found on line….I was going to purchase the statue but lost the link and have not been able to find it again…but I did find and bought a similar statue a few weeks ago…I thought about updating my avatar but am sentimentally attached to the picture I already have – silly I know.
Well, everyone, it has indeed been fun, but I need to get back to my normal routine.so I will say “Adieu.”
If anyone would like to get in touch with me to ask more questions (one at a time, please ;)), you can email me at studyhisword101 -at- yahoo.com (don’t want pesky spam trawlers getting my address) I will most likely always remain in the 101 category, but God loves me anyway.
One more verse for you:
1 Peter 4:8
🙂
Since history has been brought up in the last several posts, just thought I would note the irony for you all that SHW has been quoting Scripture after Scripture as authority for her views in support of the church that did everything in its power for over 1000 years to keep the knowledge of the Scriptures out of the hands of the people, including killing those who might seek to translate the Scriptures into a language actually spoken and read by the people.
Luth, I should have said Paul killed, not murdered. In Saul’s mind he was killing in God’s name. God will judge the Muslims and everyone else. I prefer to let God sort it all out.
Dusty, I always read my stuff and make changes.each time before I post. And, some are definitely important changes.
I think I have now replied to every post referring to SHW and if I have not, please accept my sincere apology.
I like having SHW here. But I’d like having her here an awful lot more if she showed any interest in understanding protestant Christianity. No one on here has time for someone who thinks they know better or is disrespectful of other brothers and sisters in Chirst, no matter what church they belong or don’t belong to.
Stuff she’s said so far about the Reformation is quite shallow and on the level of sound bytes. I’ve heard similar shtick from other Catholic apologists on the radio, etc.
I’d be much more interested in having a Catholic here who’s interested in dialogue and understanding, not polemics. Most folks here are quite solid in what they believe. This is definitely not a ‘swallow and follow’ site!!
I’ve always thought of PP as similar to Touchstone Magazine, where folks from Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodoxy dialogue, learn from each other, and find areas of agreement, of which there are many.
SHW isn’t going to convert anyone here. That’s not what PP is about.
That’s my take.
Michael?
my take on it, well first SHW Trent, V1 and V2 dont match and all have “apostolic” authority despite all the hand waving at Catholic Answers. I have great respect for Catholics and Catholic spirituality, as for the corporate end of the spectrum, not much. As for the rest of the conversation, I got lost at “Adam and Eve and Sin entering the universe after the fall”. Of course anyone who has been here long enough knows that about me. I do hope you all have a fine evening.
Luth,
Pretty much agree with you….although the flood of posts and their length makes dialog difficult.
I will also confess that this has created a crisis of conscience in me…I can’t stand to see justification by faith denied and mangled while being replaced with soul killing works righteousness and legalism.
I’m not nearly as ecumenical as I thought I was…
SHW:
You said:
“Yes, mankind was created to have dominion over the earth, but then man sinned and got kicked out of the garden. How much dominion does mankind actually have now?
Now, because of Adam’s sin, mankind has to deal with the demons:”
and…
“What or Who do you think causes the storms and other disturbances on the earth? Perhaps it is the demons.”
Both of these statements contradict your previous statements about Satan already having control over the earth, but not the garden. Oh and God never took dominion or rule away from man kind over the earth, we just stink at it because of our sin. And I think you might also find scripture has something to say about who causes both blessing and calamity. It’s worth a read.
London:
decaf it is.
Guitar guy:
Your right about this:
“So, at the end of all these discussions, is anyone free, joyful, dancing, singing? Anything beautiful created? Anyone fed? Healed?”
And the answer is no!
Since we all seem to know and agree that there must be fruit that follows a believer the problem stems from the fact SHW is blossoming from a different tree, and quite possibly a different crate to carry the fruit in. Therefore I get no kick out of discussing apples and oranges with SHW.
SHW:
I got to give you credit, you are the most patience, determined and Teflon coated poster I have read here on PP. You have generated over 600 responses and that has to be a record. I don’t think Skip H or maybe even Todd B got such a crowd.
Night.
AV,
They did not have printing presses in the early days. Most people were illiterate because they were poor. That is why Catholic churches had stained glass windows — to show the gospel in pictures.
A Bible took a long time to print by hand letter by letter and so they were very expensive. There were Bibles translated in the native languages of a few of the peoples but not most of them yet at the time of the Reformation. The Reformation is the time period in which the printing press was invented and printing became revolutionized and books became inexpensive enough for ordinary people to buy.
Bibles were burned because they had major errors in translation. People were killed because that is what both Catholics and Protestants did back in those days.
You seem extremely bitter against the Catholic Church, and if this is so. I am sorry for your pain. May God bless you and keep you close to His Heart.
“You have generated over 600 responses and that has to be a record. I don’t think Skip H or maybe even Todd B got such a crowd”.
Bob…on that you would be mistaken. There was a time when that was pretty much just an average day. 🙂
Lute #243
I wondered that too.
I’m not nearly as ecumenical as I thought I was…
Michael,
):
LOL. I’ve had similar thoughts.
I can’t tell you how many times while reading these threads that I thank God for His mercy and His glorious salvation that is totally GIFT.
Totally.
Gift.
Totally!
Luth said, “I thank God for His mercy and His glorious salvation that is totally GIFT.
Totally.
Gift.
Totally!”
‘cuz it is always worth repeating. 😉
You seem extremely bitter against the Catholic Church, and if this is so. I am sorry for your pain.
——————————————————-
I said somewhere before that I would be accused of Catholic-hating. Now it comes out.
The revisionist history in SHW’s 11:15 is staggering.
Just…staggering…
Are these blatant lies (despite all that has been written about the need to live rightly before God), or is there really this much ignorance.
I’m not going to sleep well tonight.
another voice, why will you not sleep well? we know you are not bitter.
another voice, thank you for what you said on the other thread….it really touched me.
Bella, you too…thank you.
I have read in detail most if not all SHW’s posts and what got me fired up wasn’t that I disagree with her on doctrine , which I do for many of her positions, it is the handling of scripture and the mixing of fables and human traditions with them.
If the proof texts provided are examined, even in the most casual way, one will find most are poor and out of context. There is also the inability of SHW to be able to decide if a text is literal, metaphorical or anthropomorphic in nature. When challenged to put these text into the context of the authors, culture and history she is unable to do so.
The easiest example I can give is the idea of Jesus receiving, carrying and then passing on literal keys to Peter. First of all the scripture reference to keys is a “word picture” of one who has been given the authority over something. It is the same as the idea of “binding and loosing” scripture, a common 1st century rabbinical terminology used for one who has authority to make decisions.
A good example of such binding and loosing authority in the NT church is in Acts chapter 15. James, the head of the church, had the responsibility to make a determination about gentiles and how they were not bound by certain Jewish laws.
The sad part is SHW added to scripture by saying that the “keys” were given to Peter, something which is not clearly spelled out in scripture. Additionally the same Acts 15 scripture, mentioned above, would imply that James, not Peter, was the head of the newly formed church.
I would also worry when things are said like, Jesus possibly believed there was an actual portal or gate into the underworld. While it is true during the 2nd Temple period some rabbis did record this as a possible belief, at no point is there any indication that Jesus held such a belief and to suggest otherwise is merely spreading fables and mis-information.
Over all I am disturbed by SHW and her speaking with authority about doctrine when there are so many weak and untrustworthy holes in her presentations.
Dusty, it bothers me that anyone so loyal to their church would be so deliberately blinded to the truth of its history, or otherwise so deliberately deceitful while posting in the name of Christ. I see no 3rd option though.
I don’t know which of the two is the case here – but either one truly saddens me. Plus, it gets me thinking about the atrocities done in years past to our true brothers in Christ who refused to toe Rome’s line of thinking and obedience. John Wycliffe comes to mind in this context. Such memories further sadden me.
As has been stated many times, by many posters – we are officially anathema to the Roman Catholic Church. All this talk about “God will judge Luther’s heart” is completely at odds with the messages here about Rome having the keys to the kingdom and being the one true church on earth. The Pope and the church he runs damned Luther to hell.
Now that either should mean something in SHW’s world, or she should just say that the Popes of the past went too far and took upon themselves power and authority they do not have. Of couse, in admitting such a thing, what does that say for the current Pope and his future successors or for the RCC in general.
another voice, thank you for what you said on the other thread….it really touched me.
—————————————————
You are welcome. It was a sincere pleasure to say it
And on that positive note, time for bed. 🙂
‘As has been stated many times, by many posters – we are officially anathema to the Roman Catholic Church.’
If that’s true, then I don’t really see much of a basis for dialogue with SHW here.
I echo what Bob and AV said in their posts. Her reply to me earlier about the fact that the RCC didn’t exist until the middle of the fourth century was a propagandistic brew of obfuscation, nonlogic and ignorance — whether willful or not, I can’t judge.
One thing that saddens me is that SHW is promulgating an authoritarian, preReformation Catholicism. She’s kind of stuck in the 1100s. The fact is — and this is just one example — many Catholic theologians today admit that Luther’s reforms were right and necessary. But you’ll never hear that from a Catholic propagandist. They appear just want to score points.
Very interesting. Especially now knowing that SHW is a Catholic Apologist and an expert. That emphasizes the equivocation on the issue of “conscience” and “the will is good” and the eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil…and original sin.
During my cursory foray into Catholic Theology and Apologetic the weak issue that jumped out was “conscience”…and the inability by Catholics to take a firm stand on that issue…yet such an importance is placed on a person’s “doing what they believe is right according to their conscience.”
Let me explain:
When challenged on the issue of “conscience” and when man received his conscience:
SHW first said “When he was created. A person’s conscience is what gives him the ability to choose between good and evil.”
SHW then said, “Please forgive me for not reading all that you posted about conscience. I get brain freeze when I try to understand scholarly writings such as those.”
This is a Catholic Apologist who has all the answers making that statement.
Then SHW said, “Perhaps he did not have a conscience yet. Your guess is as good as mine!”
So now it’s a guess…to minimize and deflect (my opinion) away from a critical error in Catholic Theology and Apologetic.
SHW then said, “Adam chose to please Eve rather than to obey God. He did not know what the consequences would be, otherwise I am sure, he would not have eaten that piece of fruit.”
SHW then said, “Actually, your guess is most likely better than mine!”
“Conscience” defined: “Conscience is an ability or a faculty that distinguishes whether one’s actions are right or wrong.”
One doing what they “believe” to be right or wrong is a critical part of Catholic Theology. Hierarchy of sin and the examples given regarding people of other religions that don’t believe in Jesus as Messiah as getting some sort of pass if they truly believe what their conscience tells them. It places the importance on a man’s “conscience”…and his decisions based off of what he believes is right or wrong…rather than what God defines…through God’s Law…of what is right or wrong.
In other words…Catholics appear to believe that ignorance is a defense of the Law. Rather, IMO, the Bible is clear that Jesus Christ is both the Cornerstone and the Stumbling block…and that ignorance is no defense of the Law…and that man’s conscience is not the determinant…it is God’s Law…and the only way to satisfy God’s Law is Faith in Jesus Christ our Messiah.
Actually Luth…I hope SHW sticks around. It will, after dissecting more issues, clearly define the differences and one can make the decision as to whether those differences are primary or secondary.
I’m hoping the PP family will think about the following regarding the issue of man’s “conscience” and “morality” and determining Good and Evil…vs. God’s Law.
If Adam was created with his “conscience”…then what are the implications related to Catholic Theology (or any Theology or belief system for that matter)…and “chose” to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil…made the decision in his mind to disobey God’s command…and ate of the Tree anyway…and became “like God”…
If Adam was not created with his “conscience”…but rather gained his “conscience” AFTER the decision he made in his mind to disobey God’s command…and made that decision not knowing what he was doing was wrong…and then ate of the Tree and gained the Knowledge of Good and Evil…then what are the implications?
There is no third option. Adam either knew what he was doing was wrong or he didn’t…when he made the decision in his mind to disobey God’s command.
“Conscience” is a critical issue.
“CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema. ”
More from the Council of Trent on Justification:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/counciltrent.html
And ion the sacraments:
http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch7.htm
We should have a contest to see who is anathematized the most times by Trent.
SHW,
In your 6:33pm, you wrote:
>>The truth of Jesus’ Church does not depend upon the sanctity of its members. What is amazing is that even though there were many horrible popes, bishops, and priests who sinned grievous sins; the Holy Spirit prevented them from teaching error. If these evil persons did not repent before death, then they will also be punished in hell like Judas.
This is the silliest thing I have read on this blog in a couple of years. The ‘Holy Spirit prevent them from teaching error’, they had to teach error because the popes contradict each other and contradict the clear teaching of the word of God. Let me ask you this, “Do you walk around with ear plugs and your hands covering your eyes?” You would have to do this to believe this kind of blatant propaganda. Just a cursory search on the internet of papal edicts and their contradictions would have revealed the error of your doctrines.
Here is a website if you would like to examine these things:
http://www.biblebb.com/files/cathinfo.htm
SHW…a question for you.
Is it a really a rule within the RCC that all popes/priests, etc. are to remain unmarried and/or celibate?
If so, how did that come about?
It obviously did not start with Peter as he was married.
Why am I not allowed to change my mind when someone convinces me that my idea was wrong? Isn’t that what spiritual growth is all about?
I have never ever claimed to be an expert because I am not. Posting on just one other blog does not make me famous nor does it make me an expert especially since it is a Catholic blog and I am Catholic.
I simply thought that I was being courteous by answering your questions in the best way that I knew how, using Scripture alone which is your standard, and I actually thought that you were interested in learning what a faithful Catholic really thinks and believes instead of what other Protestants believe Catholics think and believe.
Every Scripture is true. If two seem to contradict, then a person’s understanding of them needs more study.
For example:
James states that “……we are justifed by works, and not faith alone.”
This is true or else nothing else in the Bible is true.
And so is this:
1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
Goose,
I would be pleased to answer your question, but it would be better for all if I did not answer it on this blog.
studyhisword101 -at- yahoo.com
SHW,
Evidently, you didn’t consider what I wrote earlier about faith producing works, but that if you try to base your salvation upon works (considering those being meritorious or salvivic) then you will be lost for eternity??? James’ point is that genuine saving faith produces works…
Geez, you just cherry-pick scripture after scripture that seems to prove one of your points without considering at all the context of them.
JimB
1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
If you do not continue in them, then you will not save yourself and those who hear you.
Paul’s ending advice to Timothy has given the church a famous, and on the surface enigmatic, saying: “Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers” (v. 16). The opening line is an exquisite summary. “Watch your life” refers to the fivefold example of godliness commanded in verse 12: “in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.” “Watch your … doctrine” references his preaching and teaching (v. 13), which are to be exercised since he has been gifted for ministry (v. 14).
The balance of life and doctrine is the key to spiritual success. Doctrine has everything to do with life, because what we believe about God determines how we live. The more we know about God and his workings, the more we will love him, and the better we will serve him. Do you love him now? Will you love him less if you learn more of him and his Word? The great need of people today is to know more of God—to know more doctrine. Doctrine is the most practical thing in life!
On the other hand, godly lifestyle has everything to do with maintaining doctrine because if we do not live according to what we know of God and his Word, we will either disbelieve or will attempt to change his Word. This is exactly what has happened with so many who have departed from the faith.
So we need to “watch [our] life and doctrine.” What am I like? Am I consistent? How is my “speech”? How is my “life”? How is my “love,” my “faith,” my “purity”? How is my “doctrine”? Is it truly Biblical? Or is it secularized or syncretized? Do I really believe what I say I believe? And am I believing it more as time goes on?
This is all so important for your ministry because if you “persevere in them … you will save both yourself and your hearers” (v. 16). Paul is being instructively enigmatic here because he taught again and again that salvation comes only through God’s sovereign mercy and grace. He left no doubt—we do not and cannot save ourselves. His point is that those who persevere in life and doctrine will persevere in salvation.
Timid Timothy was in a tough spot—pastoring a church that had not called him—ministering to a people who despised his youth and inexperience. But he succeeded 1) because he was godly in character, 2) because he focused on the Word, 3) because he exercised his gift, 4) because he worked hard, and 5) because he carefully watched his life and doctrine.
Such lives work out their own salvation (Philippians 2:12). They save themselves and then save their hearers. How is your “life”? How is your “doctrine”?
Hughes, R. K., & Chapell, B. (2000). 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus : To guard the deposit. Preaching the Word (118–119). Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.
Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
“But in this way, we shall be told, all are cut off from the hope of salvation; for who is there that is not chargeable with some of those sins? I reply, Paul does not threaten that all who have sinned, but that all who remain impenitent, shall be excluded from the kingdom of God. The saints themselves often fall into grievous sins, but they return to the path of righteousness, “that which they do they allow not,” (Romans 7:15,) and therefore they are not included in this catalogue. All threatenings of the judgments of God call us to repentance. They are accompanied by a promise that those who repent will obtain forgiveness; but if we continue obstinate, they remain as a testimony from heaven against us.”
John Calvin, Calvin’s Commentaries (Complete) (trans. John King; Accordance electronic ed. Edinburgh: Calvin Translation Society, 1847), n.p.
SHW,
I would like to ask a BIG favour.
Today, can we have a scripture fast and you just share about yourself WITHOUT posting bible verses?
What really works around here is if you come and engage as a person.
Are you a male of female? Married? Kids? What do you do for a living? What part of the planet are you on? Do you like coffee? What’s your favorite meal?
SHW, I approached you with an open mind. I have challenged others on here pretty stringently as well. I once told Michael emphatically that the Swiss could use Calvinism as cheese…it has so many holes in it. I am in a process of exploring and proving that claim as well…
I want Truth. I beg God for it. I did not mean to insult you…I was surprised to discover that you didn’t have an answer regarding conscience…and surprised to learn of a serious error in Catholic Theology…which I’ll explain further. I hope you’ll continue to interact with me to discover Truth.
I do apologize for offending. In Michael’s case…when I made the statement…I was doing it in pride and was a bit miffed at him.
My words could have been phrased nicer and I could have given you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincerely seeking on a journey (like the rest of us) as well…and not trying to convert us to Catholicism.
Here is a critical issue:
“Man has free will…and man’s free will is to do good.”
“God is Sovereign.”
Dusty shared a riddle yesterday (or was it the day before?). In order to solve the riddle…one has to look (at glance) a seemingly incompatible list…and find a Greater Truth that satisfies all on the list.
The question was “what is greater than God?”….Nothing.
If you believe that the premise of the riddle is a True premise…than naturally one has to find what is the Greater Truth when competing ideas are present.
In the case of the riddle…it was clear that for the riddle to be “True”…the only answer one need worry about was “what is greater than God?”…and naturally the answer could be applied to the rest of the list…and still be “True”…
Regarding SHW’s supposed misuse of Scripture, let me say this. When I was an Evangelical, we always arranged certain scriptures in a certain way to achieve a certain result. That is to say, certain verses could be arranged to demonstrate the doctrines of the Five Solas, for example. Folks get used to seeing these verses used in this way and assume that this is the only way they can be arranged and fall off their chairs when they see them arranged differently.
It’s like having your living room furniture arranged the same way for 40 years and one day you come in the room and everything’s in a different place. Heresy!
I experienced this first hand when I began reading Orthodox books. I saw verses used to support ideas in ways that were quite new to me. Who rearranged the furniture? I never thought that little table could be used to hold up that vase. But look how nice it looks!
I am not a Catholic though. Sometimes in these discussions I find myself sticking up for the Catholic side because we do have much in common but I am not a great fan of Catholicism.
This principle can be applied to seeking Truth in Scripture…under the assumption that applying “Reason” is appropriate…and functioning under the premise that God Is…is Truth.
I haven’t seen anybody here arguing for sin.
On the contrary, if we knew the truth about sin we would know that we have no righteousness in or about ourselves and are wholly dependent on the finished work of Christ.
The questions before the house are quite simple…did Christ accomplish the salvation of the elect or didn’t He?
Can I look to the Cross for redemption or must I somehow combine my own righteousness with His work… when my righteousness is filthy rags?
Is grace freely given or earned by works…which would nullify grace completely?
It’s simple and I’m bone tired of the discussion for now.
I’ll let the more holy work it out from here.
In the Bible there are many competing ideas.
What is the Greatest Truth?
God Is.
Who is God?
The Father, the Son (Logos…the Word) and the Holy Spirit.
How do we “know” about God?
The Word.
What does the Word say about God? What are His attributes?
Out of all of God’s attributes…what is the one attribute that MUST be True for Him to be God…and have the ability to fulfill ALL of the things in the Word?
This may be heresy but the reason I gave up Bible memory verses at a very early age in my walk is because I could not just focus on one or two verses that left out the context of the entire paragraph and often chapter. Context is EVERYTHING.
Instead, I just read and reread Scripture, like listening to a song over and over until whole paragraphs are lodged in the memory.
As a result, I can often quote you huge sections of Scripture but need Strongs to help me remember what chapter in what book I am quoting 🙂
(The smiley should be the red-faced embarassed one but I don’t know how to make that one)
Believe,
You did not offend me. You were kind and I appreciate that.
I was simply answering questions to the best of my knowledge. I was sharing what I thought and believed. You made me think and because of that, I changed some of my beliefs. Thank you for your help.
I do not want to answer any more questions on this blog since I make some people unhappy when I do.
( | o )====:::,
Thank you for your kindness in asking.
Many blessings to you.
How’s this for ecumenism?
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation
Concurrently, let’s start another premise:
“Man has Free Will and (from the Catholic Encyclopedia) “This is impossible because evil as such is not contained within the scope of the adequate object of the will, which is good.”
1. Can man have Free Will…as understood and expressed by Catholic Theology and Doctrine…and God still be God with all of His attributes in tact?
2. Can Man’s Will be Good and not undermine a Greater Truth?
SHW…I really wish you’d keep sharing and ignore those who are bothering you…at least keep lurking and reading…I can email you privately if I have a specific question.
The Catholic Encyclopedia is pretty extensive and a good resource (to see the Catholic position on most issues) for me so I can ask and answer my own questions…
Buster,
If I was a pagan or Lutheran, or Orthodox, etc. and then I learned what the Catholic Church taught and as a result of my knowledge, I believed it to be true, but I refused to join the Catholic Church because I still prefered being a pagan, then I would not be saved unless I joined the Church before I died.
This is what it actually means, but I am sure you will not agree. 🙂
1 Timothy 4:16 was written AFTER Christ’s death on the cross.
“Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
Save in what sense?
There are other options than salvation from hell.
Like being saved from the unsavory consequences of bad doctrine in this life, like chastisement from God, or the temporal judgement of God.
Over and over again (Especially in the Gospel of John) the only condition presented for salvation from hell, is faith in the finished work of the cross by the Lord Jesus Christ on our behalf.
SHW,
If I wanted to stop your posting I could.
If there are those in the community who wish to engage with you and you wish to do the same, then I’ll trust that God will keep His elect from any error.
AB,
Good to see you!. 🙂
to skate close to the edge here …
adding anything to the “finished work of Christ Jesus” on the cross can, perhaps, be visualized as being given the finest piece that Michelangelo ever sculpted and then set about decorating it…
our works should be concerned with its display and care – nothing we can do will add anything to its value or our prestige
Em,
Amen…
SHW said, “If I was a pagan or Lutheran, or Orthodox, etc. and then I learned what the Catholic Church taught and as a result of my knowledge, I believed it to be true, but I refused to join the Catholic Church because I still prefered being a pagan, then I would not be saved unless I joined the Church before I died.”
Yes. This is the critical error in the Catholic position, IMO.
It places man’s “knowing” and “man’s conscience” and man’s perception of “right and wrong” and “morality”…which is subjective…above God’s Law…which is Absolute.
Good to see you too Michael. 🙂
Just to be clear, good teaching may indeed save some from hell, but only teaching that lines up with the whole of teaching on a subject.
In the catholics case, their view of soteriology compels them to deny salvation as a present possession from both Paul and Timothy.
In other words, in their view, both Paul and Timothy were “works in progress” – working towards their salvation.
In the case of 1 Timothy 4:16, which is a pastoral epistle, I believe the larger context is his teaching believers correctly within a sanctification context. Failure to do this properly would be damaging to both him and his fellow believers, but faithful teaching would “save” them from this damage.
We have to be careful in exegeting salvation passages properly because it is possible to have a truncated view of salvation. Salvation biblically is broader than just salvation from hell and has to be determined by context.
EM – I saw a show years ago about the controversy with restoring Da Vinci’s Last Supper. Your post reminded me of that.
Of course there, they are just painting over where he painted, not trying to add anything new to the finished work.
AB,
If this thread keeps going, I’m going to repost that every fifty comments.
That is a very important word for this discussion.
Most or even all of you on this blog think that the pope’s claim (that he and his Church have been given authority by God to correctly interpret Scripture) is ludicrous and so some of you ridicule him.
However, some of you do the exact same thing. Some of you read the Scriptures claiming that the Holy Spirit guides you and as a result, anyone who disagrees with you is in error.
You have made yourself like the pope by believing you are infallible, thinking that only your interpretation is the correct one, yet you refuse to recognize this fact.
I am glad that the pope is not a hypocrite. He’s not afraid to make the claim publicly that he actually believes that he and his Church have been given authority by God to interpret Scripture and I also do not see him ridiculing those who do not agree with him.
“You have made yourself like the pope by believing you are infallible, thinking that only your interpretation is the correct one, yet you refuse to recognize this fact.”
I don’t believe there is anyone on this site who believes that…we are open to correction…from the Scriptures.
Believe,
Romans 2:14-16
Michael,
You are open to correction by your new interpretation of the Scriptures.
SHW – “I do not want to answer any more questions on this blog since I make some people unhappy when I do.”
Ah, but that’s the nature of this blog. Someone’s always unhappy with what someone else is saying.
If we all stopped talking cause someone else didn’t like what we were saying, the place would be empty.
You’re not being rude in your responses and you’re answering honestly as far as I can tell. I do agree with Grendal though that it would be nice to have a bit of a break to just get to know the person behind the scripture linking.
What else do you do with your life? Have any hobbies that don’t include Bible stuff, where’s your favorite vacation spot, who’s your favorite band, that kind of stuff…
Michael,
When your interpretation changes, does that mean that the Holy Spirit taught you error the first time you interpretated?
AB,
You should give up your graphic arts and be a pastor (or use them while you pastor), you are always square on when dividing up the word of God!
“Knowledge” is not Absolute Truth.
“Wisdom” is where Knowledge and Truth intersect.
Is man’s “knowing”…man’s “conscience”….man’s “knowledge”…man’s “understanding” gained from his experience during his Vapor…necessarily “Wisdom”?
No. It is not “necessarily” Wisdom unless his “knowing” intersects Truth.
Is Truth still Truth when separate from man’s Knowledge or Knowing?
Yes.
JimB,
AB can’t give up his graphic arts anymore than he could give up breathing. It’s “both/and” 😉
“When your interpretation changes, does that mean that the Holy Spirit taught you error the first time you interpretated?”
That would be no.
It means we grow in grace and knowledge on the journey.
Okay then,
My name is Marie. I am 55 years old and I live in AZ. I am married, but we were not blessed with children. My husband is a great guy and he works in agriculture.
I am ill with rheumatoid arthritis so I do not have a regular job, much to my disappointment. I do volunteer work when I feel well enough to do so.
Most of my hobbies are no longer possible, but I liked to skydive and I was a certified scuba diver, and I liked hiking and horseback riding, playing softball, basketball, etc.
I also liked to garden; however, now I read a lot, mostly mysteries, keep up with household chores, and I spend time with husband and friends and I also post on Catholic.com when I feel lup to it.
🙂
Jim B and ( | o )====::: ,
Thanks for the kind words.
I guess I have always felt that it was the duty of every christian to be students of the Word especially on the most important topics.
But I don’t really see myself as uniquely gifted to pastor as a full time profession.
I see many here who do indeed have that gift such as you Jim.
I think many of you here are extremely qualified to deal with the errors of Rome.
I think Buster and AV may just be getting warmed up! 🙂
Michael,
So, you are open to other interpretations besides your own? If so, then I would agree that you are on a faith journey, trying to grow in grace and knowledge.
SHW…
Romans 2 (the whole passage)
What is the Greater Truth here?
Here are the competing truths:
You’ve got things attributed to God and also to man.
Assuming God Is…God must necessarily be preeminent to man, His creation….so…what is attributed to God in this passage:
1. God will rightly judge sin.
2. God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance.
3. On the day of wrath God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
4. God will render to each one according to their works.
5. God will give eternal life to those who obey.
6. God will mete out wrath and fury for those who disobey.
7. God shows no partiality.
8. God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
9. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.
10. His praise is not from man but from God.
SHW,
You are correct — I do not agree. The anathema says nothing about it applying only to those who believe it to be true, but still refuse. It says that anyone outside is bound for hell. It was only in recent history that your church decided that it should try to soften its image, so it tried to be more inclusive and moved away from making broad judgments about those not in the church. The problem is that they have to to try to align all those prior pronouncements about heretics with the new, friendly approach. And it has to be done without admitting any contradictions, so you have to reinterpret the old decrees, and insert words that were not originally there, or create elaborate explanations that soften the blow.
And you are bound to those interpretations — any independent assessment is irrelevant. You cannot change your position to be anything other than that which the church teaches.
I would guess that that is a comfort to you. There might be a sense of relief to some in not having to make such judgments continually. I can admire the level of faith required for such a commitment, in the face of what I see as great contradictions, but it is not “faith alone” that will save, right? 🙂
This playing field (PP) is very uneven: you are trying to use logic to sway our positions, yet you have made yourself immune to this. Any admission of error on any matter that is an official teaching of the Church will cause the entire system to collapse for you. I can admit error and move on. I can admit that I was not correctly listening to the Holy Spirit. I can accept reasonable correction from my brothers and sisters here (and benefited from that in the past).
I accept responsibility for my past errors. You, by your complete assent to and faith in the Catholic Church, will be responsible for all of the errors which it has made, and that you deny. I hope that you will escape that judgment.
SHW,
First of all thank you for sharing a little about yourself…we sometimes forget we are talking with real people who share more in common than not.
When I study the Word I do so prayerfully…and when teaching I consult many sources then pray some more.
I arrive at conclusions, but I’m always open to correction through the Word and through the Holy Spirit.
Believe,
According to Scripture, God desires for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, and it also states that Jesus died as a ransom for all.
So, if a person, through no fault of his own, has no opportunity given to him to learn the truth and to accept the truth and he also dies in this state of spiritual lack; in your view, is he automatically damned because of his ignorance?
Marie,
Thank you for sharing your life with us. It helps us to know about you because then we will treat you with more respect and consideration. I am sorry to hear about your illness and struggles. I will pray for you and your husband in these. BTW, I too am an AZ product, growing up in northern AZ, and doing most of my college education in Phoenix.
Buster,
I know you mean well, but you are telling me exactly what my Church taught in the past and what it teaches now, and frankly, this is puzzling to me. Why do you take it upon yourself to be this authority?
You were not in the Catholic Church 500 years ago, discussing with and helping the pope while he was composing his writings in order to make sure that 500 years into the future that every single person would understand accurately.
People do not agree on the interpretation of Scripture right now and they have not agreed for centuries. You think Paul meant one thing and others think he meant another thing. It is not fair to single out the pope for bashing when you really do not and cannot know what was in his mind or intention when he wrote those words.
SHW…
Now, what is attributed to man:
1. Man has no excuse.
2. Man condemns himself my passing judgment on another because he practices such things himself.
3. Man will not escape judgment.
4. Man’s hard and impenitent heart stores up wrath.
5. Man will receive the judgment according to his works.
6. Those who obey God will will receive eternal life.
7. Those who do not obey the truth will receive wrath and fury.
8. Restated: Man (Jew or Greek) who does evil will receive tribulation and distress.
9. Restated: Man (Jew or Greek) who does good will receive glory and honor and peace.
10. All man who sin without the law will perish.
11. All man who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
12. (Man) The doers of the law will be justified.
13. Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
14. Gentiles show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.
15. Jewish teachers of the law teach the law yet violate the law by their actions.
16. Obeying the law is of value unless you break the law.
17. A Gentile who keeps the law will condemn a Jew who has the law but breaks the law.
18. No man is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
Thank you Michael and JimB. I pray for all here on this blog, too. 🙂
SHW…
What is the Greatest Truth found in this passage? What necessarily MUST be true (in order of succession) for God to Be…
Better stated: Go down the list and sort it out as what necessarily MUST be True to support the premise that God Is.
If there is something that appears to violate the premise that God Is…by violating one of God’s Attributes…then it must be false…or our interpretation must be wrong…otherwise our underlying premise of our entire “Theology” is disproved.
If a truth does not violate our premise that God Is…then we need to sort in order of Greater Truth to lesser truth and work through the information in that manner.
It’s tedious…but if we want to apply man’s logos to The Logos…this is kind of how it works.
Believe,
14. Gentiles show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.
********
Who judges these conflicting thoughts? God
What standard does He use?
Michael,
RE: If there are those in the community who wish to engage with you and you wish to do the same, then I’ll trust that God will keep His elect from any error.
**********
Are you implying that I am not one of God’s elect? 🙂
SHW…your assumption is that the greater truth here:
“14. Gentiles show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.”
Is the standard God uses to judge.
Is that necessarily the Greater Truth here in this passage?
We’re skipping ahead…you have to build the foundation before you can add the walls and the roof. 🙂
Let’s start from “God Is” and work our way down…
…or work our way up 🙂
Dusters…can you post that riddle again? It will help me to illustrate the process so there is better understanding of how this process works…
Believe,
No, I am not assuming that at all.
Even if I do not know who God is, He will still judge me when I die.
SHW,
Not implying that at all… 🙂
I have to go tackle a large stack of work now…
SHW…that’s not what I meant…I meant was there is a process and if we start answering questions before their turn in the Greater Truth process…it gets confusing and makes things more difficult.
We’ll answer that question…but it has to be in its proper order or the “house” will not be constructed properly.
Believe,
I already know who God is. 🙂
Who judges these conflicting thoughts of the Gentiles? God
What standard does He use to judge these Gentiles?
Is it the same standard that He uses for Believe and SHW?
SHW…after reviewing both lists “God” and “Man”…what do you see as the number one truth contained in this passage from our two lists.
Hint: It’s in the God column.
Greater Truths:
1. God will rightly judge sin.
If the Greater Truth in this passage is that “God will rightly judge sin”…God is Just. God is Judge.
We know who God is…what is sin?
God is God and therefore He judges all people: Jew, Gentile, and Christian, according to His own thoughts and His own ways regardless of how any one of the Jews, Gentiles, or Christians thinks He should judge.
Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia defines as “sin”:
Nature of sin
Since sin is a moral evil, it is necessary in the first place to determine what is meant by evil, and in particular by moral evil. Evil is defined by St. Thomas (De malo, 2:2) as a privation of form or order or due measure. In the physical order a thing is good in proportion as it possesses being. God alone is essentially being, and He alone is essentially and perfectly good. Everything else possesses but a limited being, and, in so far as it possesses being, it is good. When it has its due proportion of form and order and measure it is, in its own order and degree, good. (See GOOD.) Evil implies a deficiency in perfection, hence it cannot exist in God who is essentially and by nature good; it is found only in finite beings which, because of their origin from nothing, are subject to the privation of form or order or measure due them, and, through the opposition they encounter, are liable to an increase or decrease of the perfection they have: “for evil, in a large sense, may be described as the sum of opposition, which experience shows to exist in the universe, to the desires and needs of individuals; whence arises, among human beings at least, the suffering in which life abounds” (see EVIL).
According to the nature of the perfection which it limits, evil is metaphysical, physical, or moral. Metaphysical evil is not evil properly so called; it is but the negation of a greater good, or the limitation of finite beings by other finite beings. Physical evil deprives the subject affected by it of some natural good, and is adverse to the well-being of the subject, as pain and suffering. Moral evil is found only in intelligent beings; it deprives them of some moral good. Here we have to deal with moral evil only. This may be defined as a privation of conformity to right reason and to the law of God. Since the morality of a human act consists in its agreement or non-agreement with right reason and the eternal law, an act is good or evil in the moral order according as it involves this agreement or non-agreement. When the intelligent creature, knowing God and His law, deliberately refuses to obey, moral evil results.
Sin is nothing else than a morally bad act (St. Thomas, “De malo”, 7:3), an act not in accord with reason informed by the Divine law. God has endowed us with reason and free-will, and a sense of responsibility; He has made us subject to His law, which is known to us by the dictates of conscience, and our acts must conform with these dictates, otherwise we sin (Romans 14:23). In every sinful act two things must be considered, the substance of the act and the want of rectitude or conformity (St. Thomas, I-II:72:1). The act is something positive. The sinner intends here and now to act in some determined matter, inordinately electing that particular good in defiance of God’s law and the dictates of right reason. The deformity is not directly intended, nor is it involved in the act so far as this is physical, but in the act as coming from the will which has power over its acts and is capable of choosing this or that particular good contained within the scope of its adequate object, i.e. universal good (St. Thomas, “De malo”, Q. 3, a. 2, ad 2um). God, the first cause of all reality, is the cause of the physical act as such, the free-will of the deformity (St. Thomas I-II:89:2; “De malo”, 3:2). The evil act adequately considered has for its cause the free-will defectively electing some mutable good in place of the eternal good, God, and thus deviating from its true last end.
In every sin a privation of due order or conformity to the moral law is found, but sin is not a pure, or entire privation of all moral good (St. Thomas, “De malo”, 2:9; I-II:73:2). There is a twofold privation; one entire which leaves nothing of its opposite, as for instance, darkness which leaves no light; another, not entire, which leaves something of the good to which it is opposed, as for instance, disease which does not entirely destroy the even balance of the bodily functions necessary for health. A pure or entire privation of good could occur in a moral act only on the supposition that the will could incline to evil as such for an object. This is impossible because evil as such is not contained within the scope of the adequate object of the will, which is good. The sinner’s intention terminates at some object in which there is a participation of God’s goodness, and this object is directly intended by him. The privation of due order, or the deformity, is not directly intended, but is accepted in as much as the sinner’s desire tends to an object in which this want of conformity is involved, so that sin is not a pure privation, but a human act deprived of its due rectitude. From the defect arises the evil of the act, from the fact that it is voluntary, its imputability.
SHW…now we need to define “sin”.
Our definition of “sin” must not violate a Greater Truth in Scripture.
Believe,
I have no desire to be a theologian. 🙂 I need KISS in my own life (meaning me as the second S, of course).
Anyone on here addicted to Sudoku? I am guilty. Just one more game…..:)
My husband is better at them than I am.
This is often why we throw verses at each other and use terms like “sin” etc. and never get anywhere…because until you really break it down…and agree on definitions and really hash out each individual item from God Is…on down…it is difficult to find Truth.
One item out of order…one item that violates the order of Greater Truth can make competing truths difficult to resolve.
There will be issues where it’s a “tie”…so to speak…because they are either equally competing truths or we just don’t know…like the Trinity.
SHW – I like myserties too! Embarrassingly enough…I like the really cheesy ones most of all. You know, the ones that are pretty much on the level of “murder she wrote” 😳
Caroline Hart and Earlene Fowler are a couple of my favorites. Totally mindless but fun way to spend a bit of time.
When I was a kid, Encylopedia Brown books were my VERY favorite. I loved those books!!!
SHW said, “I have no desire to be a theologian. 🙂 I need KISS in my own life”
I here ya…then just believe with Child-Like Faith…but make sure you believe that God Is…that Jesus Christ is the Messiah…and Salvation is through Faith in Him.
If you want to participate in traditions and do good works…fine…just don’t put your Faith in them.
Also, pray to God that you are one of the Elect and beg Him for mercy…and when you share the Gospel…make sure to tell people Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
‘You have made yourself like the pope by believing you are infallible, thinking that only your interpretation is the correct one, yet you refuse to recognize this fact.’
Wrong. No one has done that. Here’s a suggestion: Put up or shut up.
‘I am glad that the pope is not a hypocrite. He’s not afraid to make the claim publicly that he actually believes that he and his Church have been given authority by God to interpret Scripture and I also do not see him ridiculing those who do not agree with him.’
It’s a virtue to not be hypocritical.
And Sincerity is a virtue — but truth much more so.
No, the Popes through history haven’t ridiculed those they’ve disagreed with.
They’ve had them murdered.– millions, in truth.
Would’ve been infinitely better if they could have just taken some ribbing! IMHO, they have a lot of ‘splainin’ to do come the Final Day.
London,
I like “Murder She Wrote” mysteries, also. A good escape, plus I can figure out “who done it.” I’ve read C. Hart, but not E. Fowler. I will check her out. Thanks. I must be way too old for Encyclopedia Brown; I’ve never heard of this person.
Confession: I am reading “The Cat Who” series right now. How is that for cheesy?
Believe,
I have found out from recent experience that people on this blog are not interested in things like Catholic definitions, etc., so I do not think that this blog is the best venue to discuss it. 🙂 You will be welcome at catholic.com if you’d like to pursue this type of study.
Also, I do not have the heart for learning every little detail because it reminds me of the Pharisees.
What is important to me is “Am I serving God to the best of my ability?” I want always to be able to say “yes” when I ask this question each night before I go to sleep.
If you’d like to discuss general topics regarding faith like the questions that I just asked you, then I would be happy to dialogue with you. 🙂
Luth,
Yes, as we all will. 🙂
I see a double standard. It was horrible for Catholics to kill Protestants, but it was okay for Protestants to kill Catholics.
Actually, PBS who is no friend of the Catholic Church, did an investigative documentary on the Inquisitions, etc. a while back and they came up with about 12,000 – 13,000 (I cannot remember the “exact” number) total people killed by the Catholic Church, which is 12,000 to 15,000 too many. However, I cannot remember ever seeing a documentary on the Protestant “inquisition.” So much misinformation out there such as Fox’s Book of Martyrs. It is a shame.
SHW,
I know you’re trying to make me admit I’m a pope who is as guilty of the same things I’m accusing the Popes of. But I was given the capacity to make judgments, and abdication of that power is a denial of the responsibility that God has given me. I am responsible for the things I believe. I don’t have an excuse in saying, “I trusted so-and-so to think for me.”
Things are written down to communicate information. It’s only because of a written record that we can reconstruct what was intended by an author, even if imperfectly. That’s true whether it’s the Bible, a Papal encyclical, a love letter or a sudoku puzzle.
I don’t trust the government to tell me what the Constitution means. I don’t trust Chysler to tell me what my warranty agreement means. I don’t trust the Watchtower Society to tell me what was “really meant” by their failed prophecies. I don’t trust Kwame Kilpatrick to explain to me the content of the text messages he sent to his girlfriend.
I don’t trust Luther, Calvin, Chuck Smith or the Phoenix Preacher to tell me what the Bible means. I consider their research and reasoning, and evaluate it.
And I certainly don’t trust the Catholic Church to explain its own historical documents to me. Their denials about their own history are evident enough to me.
An objective reading of the text, in consideration of relevant context, is necessary to determine the intent of the author. I am capable of that. So are you.
This is another example of how the subjects of the Catholic Church are not only dependent on her for interpretation of the Bible, but also of any historical document, event, or tradition. The Church does not allow its adherents to evaluate its stance on anything. It’s all or nothing.
If I make mistakes, I (or someone near me) bear the consequences. If the Catholic Church makes, you bear the consequences, and the whole thing continues to be perpetuated for generations…
In the Garden, when things were good, Adam was given the task of naming the animals. He didn’t defer to God, he accepted the task. He had to make judgments and classify the animals. “Is his one like that one, or is it distinct?” Making judgments is a God-given task.
Accept your responsibility.
London said, “When I was a kid, Encylopedia Brown books were my VERY favorite. I loved those books!!!”
Mine, too! Bugs Meany was such a dolt 🙂
Buster,
You claim that the Catholic Church has lied about her history. When making accusations like that, a person needs incontrovertible proof that the accusation is a just one.
People don’t always understand what they read. What one person thinks another person meant is not necessarily what the first person meant at all.
Christians cannot even agree on Scripture interpretation so as a result some are teaching error and some are teaching truth yet the ones teaching error still always believe that they are teaching the absolute truth and some of these even think that the others are going to hell for thinking differently than they.
I don’t have a clue how any of us will measure up on Judgment Day and so I am certainly not going to condemn persons because they believe differently than I do. I hope to see them all in heaven, including me. 🙂
When I was a kid, it was Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys.
Now, they are updated and “back again,” but they were best the first time around. I also do not like remakes of movies. Have they run out of ideas? I think it boils down to the $ factor and that is why they do remakes. What do you think?
SHW,
Pope Honorius. He was clearly excommunicated for promulgating heresy, yet today they will try to explain it away by saying it was merely his private opinion he was condemned for, or that his error was not speaking up for the truth. The record is plain, for those who look up the source documents. It’s not my interpretation — the Church condemned its own leader.
But I can’t prove it to you, since you already are committed to the Church’s position on the matter.
Buster,
Thank you for the example.
I looked up some source documents on him. It looks like the mutual agreement about him is that he neglected to stop the spread of a heresy, which to me is a just reason to get excommunicated. As for the rest, I will leave it up to God’s judgment since there is no concrete agreement on the rest of the details.
SHW,
Sorry, I’m not letting you off on this one. It far was more than “Neglect.” Pope Leo II later wrote “that he anathematised Honorius because he ‘endeavoured by profane treason to overthrow the immaculate faith of the Roman Church.’”
http://www.romancatholicism.org/honorius-heresy.htm
He subverted the the faith with his “profana proditione.”
This decimates the doctrine of infallibility… unless you ascribe to the doctrine of infallibility…
SHW….
Romans 2
You called out this item from the “man” list:
“14. Gentiles show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.”
Your questions/comments:
“Who judges these conflicting thoughts of the Gentiles? God”
Yes.
“What standard does He use to judge these Gentiles?
Is it the same standard that He uses for Believe and SHW?”
Yes.
“God is God and therefore He judges all people: Jew, Gentile, and Christian, according to His own thoughts and His own ways regardless of how any one of the Jews, Gentiles, or Christians thinks He should judge.”
What are “according to His own thoughts and His own ways”?
Here is the Catholic Position on Divine Judgment:
Divine judgment subjectively and objectively considered
Divine judgment (judicium divinum), as an immanent act of God, denotes the action of God’s retributive justice by which the destiny of rational creatures is decided according to their merits and demerits. This includes:
* God’s knowledge of the moral worth of the acts of free creatures (scientia approbationis et reprobationis), and His decree determining the just consequences of such acts;
* the Divine verdict upon a creature amenable to the moral law, and the execution of this sentence by way of reward and punishment.
It is clear, of course, that the judgment, as it is in God, cannot be a process of distinct and successive acts; it is a single eternal act identical with the Divine Essence. But the effects of the judgment, since they take place in creatures, follow the sequence of time. The Divine judgment is manifested and fulfilled at the beginning, during the progress, and at the end of time. In the beginning, God pronounced judgment upon the whole race, as a consequence of the fall of its representatives, the first parents (Genesis 3). Death and the infirmities and miseries of this were the consequences of that original sentence. Besides this common judgment there have been special judgments on particular individuals and peoples. Such great catastrophes as the flood (Genesis 6:5), the destruction of Sodom (Genesis 28:20), the earthquake that swallowed up Core and his followers (Numbers 16:30), the plagues of Egypt (Exodus 6:6; 12:12), and the evil that came upon other oppressors of Israel (Ezekiel 25:11; 28:22) are represented in the Bible as Divine judgments. The fear of God is such a fundamental idea in the Old Testament that it insists mainly on the punitive aspect of the judgment (cf. Proverbs 11:31; Ezekiel 14:21). An erroneous view of these truths led many of the rabbis to teach that all the evil which befalls man is a special chastisement from on high, a doctrine which was declared false by Christ.
There is also a judgment of God in the world that is subjective. By his acts man adheres to or deviates from the law of God, and thereby places himself within the sphere of approval or condemnation. In a sense, then, each individual exercises judgment on himself. Hence it is declared that Christ came not to judge but to save (John 3:17; 8:15; 12:47). The internal judgment proceeds according to a man’s attitude: towards Christ (John 3:18). Though all the happenings of life cannot be interpreted as the outcome of Divine judgment, whose external manifestation is therefore intermittent, the subjective judgment is coextensive with the life of the individual and of the race. The judgment at the end of time will complement the previous visitations of Divine retribution and will manifest the final result of the daily secret judgment. By its sentence the eternal destiny of creatures will be decided. As there is a twofold end of time, so there is likewise a twofold eternal judgment: the particular judgment, at the hour of death, which is the end of time for the individual, and the general judgment, at the final epoch of the world’s existence, which is the end of time for the human race.
Perhaps you are right. God knows!
SHW,
Will you agree with the councils that Honorius subverted the faith and confirmed heresy, or deny the councils, saying he me merely was a private heretic, or will you refuse to make a judgment?
Will your commitment to truth allow for the possibility that the doctrine of papal infallibility could be incorrect?
Catholic “General”Judgment (as opposed to Particular Judgment):
Those to be judged
All men, both good and bad, according to the Athanasian Creed, will appear in the judgment to give an account of their deeds. As to children that have personally done neither good nor evil, the baptized must be distinguished from the unbaptized. The former appear in the judgment, not to be judged, but only to hold the glory of Christ (Supplement 80:5), while the latter, ranked with the wicked, although not judged, will be enabled to realize the justice of their eternal loss (Suarez). The angels and the demons will not be judged directly, since their eternal destiny has already been fixed; yet, because they have exercised a certain influence over the fortunes of men, the sentence pronounced on the latter will have a corresponding effect on them also (Supplement 89:8).
Object of the judgment
The judgment will embrace all works, good or bad, forgiven as well as unforgiven sins, every idle word (Matthew 12:36), every secret thought (1 Corinthians 4:5). With the exception of Peter Lombard, theologians teach that even the secret sins of the just will be made manifest, in order that judgment may be made complete and that the justice and mercy of God may be glorified. This will not pain or embarrass the saints, but add to their glory, just as the repentance of St. Peter and St. Mary Magdalen is to these saints a source of joy and honour.
Form of the judgment
The procedure of the judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46, and in the Apocalypse 20:12. Commentators see in those passages allegorical descriptions intended to convey in a vivid manner the fact that in the last judgment the conduct and deserts of each individual will be made plain not only to his own conscience but to the knowledge of the assembled world. It is probable that no words will be spoken in the judgment, but that in one instant, through a Divine illumination, each creature will thoroughly understand his own moral condition and that of every fellow creature (Romans 2:15). Many believe, however, that the words of the sentence: “Come, ye blessed”, etc. and “Depart from me”, etc. will be really addressed by Christ to the multitude of the saved and the lost.
Results of the general judgment
With the fulfilment of the sentence pronounced in the last judgment the relations and the dealings of the Creator with the creature find their culmination, are explained and justified. The Divine purpose being accomplished, the human race will, as a consequence, attain its final destiny. The reign of Christ over mankind will be the sequel of the General Judgment.
Believe
What is greater than God
More evil than the devil
The poor have it
The rich need it
And if you eat it, you’ll die?
Buster,
I am not sure exactly what the infallibility doctrine is other than His Church cannot teach error. I do not know the subtleties of this doctrine nor have I studied it so I can’t answer your question with the precision that you would like me to. However, I can assure you that if I find that it is not what I believe, then I would not adhere to it.
If I thought that God was telling me to change churches, I would definitely do it even if it was to one that I had originally thought was in error. Would you do the same?
Believe,
I’ve read other explanations about the judgment also and they do not match this one. Confusing to say the least. I don’t know if there has been a formal ruling on this or not. I refrain from studying this type of legalism because it is too detailed and so is confusing for me and I also do not consider it necessary for me to know in order to be saved.
I think that God will surprise a lot of us on Judgment Day since He knows the secrets of all hearts and He will judge them justly. Perhaps His judgment will not be according to our way of thinking and understanding. Exodus 33:19
I’ve enjoyed dialoguing with you. God bless you. I am not feeling well so I probably will stop posting. You can always email me questions if I do not come back here. I will get them answered even if it takes me a few days to do so.
God bless you, too, Buster!
nothing
Dusty, isn’t that riddle a repeat from yesterday?
Buster, yep…. I cut and pasted it. 😉
SHW,
From the Catechism:
http://www.markandlauraward.com/blog/2008/10/17/the-catholic-catechism-on-papal-infallibility/
Yes, God is a God of truth and non-contradiction, so if any of my thinking or beliefs were in error, I would have to abandon them, regardless of how long I had held them.
SHW,
You need a gravatar! One of these might work…
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&rlz=&=&q=pope%20hat&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi
I probably need a friendlier one…
http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=flower+puppy&aq=f&aqi=g5&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
all i can offer here is WOW! I am amazed at the discussion/comments and i am by some considered an (over) educated person (lots of alphabet letters after my name, my Phd, aka ‘piling it higher and deeper’, hangs over one of my commodes)
i function on a few things to get through my day to day SSDD…
1. saved by grace: by NO action of my own other than acceptance and confession, SALVATION which i am humbly and eternally grateful for…perfect love casts out fear, fear is not of love i grew up and was raised w every breath of my life in FEAR in the ‘perfect’ home,being as near as i could be the ‘perfect’ child,student you list it
2. Centorian, Michael, Dread, Sarah et el you all must live in Oakhurst,CA which is God’s country as you all identify as your residence 🙂
Buster,
Thank you for the info on gravatars. Since I am not the pope, I will not be wearing his hat. 🙂
How do you add a gravatar? Thanks.
Believe,
We know that Jesus promised to give (approve) the crown of eternal life to persons who love HIm, so how can we know for sure that we really do love Him so that we may be assured that we will receive this crown after we die? James 1:12
I said in an earlier post that perhaps the demons exert influence over our weather and natural world so that earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc. harm us. This idea was ridiculed. Why do you think that this is impossible?
400th!
(At least on part 2, 750th-something if you count part 1).
I’ve had nothing to do with this thread, but couldn’t resist the chance to be # 400.
mama*bella,
RE: I reject the idea that says we must pass an “obedience test” (as you put it) to enter Heaven.
***************
10:12-13 of Romans “For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Here, Paul is repeating the prophecy of 2:22 in Joel and he is explaining that this prophecy has now come to pass.
“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” However, Mark states in 16:16 that you must believe and be baptized in order to be saved.
Since we know that both of these are the Word of God, then both of these are true. So now we know that we must call on the name of the Lord, believe, and also be baptized in order to be saved.
Now, if we look at 7:21-23 in Matthew, we see that Jesus states that not all persons who call on His name will be saved. Why not? Jesus tells us why:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'”
These persons called on the name of the Lord, but He still did not grant them entrance (He did not approve of them so He did not let them enter into eternal life). Why didn’t He allow them in even though they were calling upon His Name?
He did not let them in because they denied Him by their disobedience to His commandments and this is explained in 1:16 of Titus.
So, a more complete picture of Christ’s gospel is this:
We must call on the name of the Lord, believe and be baptized, do the will of the Father in heaven and also we must not be disobedient to Him if we desire to enter into eternal life after we die.
SHW,
You have to create an account at this site, and upload an image:
http://en.gravatar.com/
Did anyone answer you on the blushing smiley? I think it’s colon-oops-colon (without the dashes). Let’s see if it works: 😳
SHW,
““Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” However, Mark states in 16:16 that you must believe and be baptized in order to be saved. ”
Even though I believe in infant, and believer’s baptism, I don’t use Mark 16:16.
You do realize that these are disputed verses? (Mark 16:9-20)
SHW…very good stuff.
“So, a more complete picture of Christ’s gospel is this:
We must call on the name of the Lord, believe and be baptized, do the will of the Father in heaven and also we must not be disobedient to Him if we desire to enter into eternal life after we die.”
We’re getting really close to some good Truth here…
Question: Does man through his “Free Will, which is for good” according to Catholic Theology, have the capacity to “do” all of this and save himself?
Better stated: If confronted with a choice to do Good or Evil…and if man’s “Free Will, which is for good”…was pure…pre-sin…would man make the choice for Evil?
And better stated: Why is it that if man’s “Free Will, which is for good”…man often chooses Evil?
Conscience is a critical issue.
“The laws of conscience, which we pretend to be derived from nature, proceed from custom. ~Michel de Montaigne”
What is the standard for Good and Evil?
In Catholic Theology…and in the theology of “man as god”…Conscience is a relative, subjective issue when gauging Sin and Good vs. Evil.
What is Sin?
What is Good? What is Evil?
If man’s “free will which is for good” is good…then why did Adam choose to make the decision in his mind to disobey God in the Garden?
When did Adam get his “conscience”…was Adam created without it? Did Adam get his Conscience when he ate of the Tree?
If “knowing” something is wrong…for it to be wrong…is the Standard…and “Free will, which is for good” is good…then how did Adam choose Evil?
If Adam didn’t “know” his disobedience was Evil…then how can it be counted as Sin to him…and he be kicked out of the Garden?
Why did Adam have to necessarily get kicked out of the Garden?
Are Sin, Good and Evil Subjective or Objective? Are they Relative or Absolute?
Authority is also a critical issue.
Who is preeminent? God or man?
MLD,
You do realize that these are disputed verses? (Mark 16:9-20)
***************
I bet every verse of Scripture has been disputed and/or rejected by someone!
Another critical issue…can man do anything to save himself?
We can believe, be baptized, do all the things on the list…does that necessarily guarantee Salvation…because we did something?
Or rather, is Salvation a supernatural event…does God Regenerate someone because they do all of those things…or does one do all of those things because they have been Regenerated?
Believe,
Too deep for me! But, I do know this: Exodus 33:19
God had mercy on Rahab, the Gentile. As a result of her obedience to His prompting to do good, she and her family were saved. 2:25 of James
We cannot be possibly be saved apart from Christ. He is the Vine and we are the branches as stated in 15:4-9 of John.
RE: And better stated: Why is it that if man’s “Free Will, which is for good”…man often chooses Evil?
Man often chooses evil because man prefers to serve himself rather than to serve God. He loves himself more than God. Man has made an idol of himself. He has put himself before God. Exodus 20:3 Man would rather live in the flesh rather than in the Holy Spirit.
If man truly loved God, then he would do God’s will (good works) which God had prepared for him as stated in 2:10 of Ephesians.
Believe,
You’re going to wear her out! One question at a time!!!
Better stated…can man do all the things on the list…have a “good heart”….jump through all the hoops…on his own?
The angels didn’t require a Savior…one third fell…but two-thirds didn’t. They are “sons of God”…they supposedly have “free will” according to Catholic Theology.
Buster,
Thank you! No, I had not learned how to make the 😳 until you told me. Is there a list of these emoticons for our use?
I have not received the confirmation from Gravatar yet so I will have to wait on that.
Believe,
RE: Another critical issue…can man do anything to save himself?
He can “help” save himself, but this means that he is choosing to stay in the state of grace which he received from God alone. He chooses to obey God’s commandments and this is why he continues to remain in the state of grace.
One example: 1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”
Two more: 2:15 of 1 Timothy and 4:8 of 1 Peter. Good works are equated with love. Love fulfills the royal law.
The issue goes to preeminence.
Who is Sovereign…God or man?
When you have competing Truths…which is the Greater Truth?
Meaning…which Truth can be true without the other Truth being violated…and thus not True.
John 6:37-39
Can God be Sovereign and man still have “free will” in connection to this verse…meaning…can man “choose” against God if the Father has chosen him?
No. Man cannot have “free will” in the manner that Catholic Theology states for this Truth to be true.
“But what about man’s will? Man can believe and be saved and do all these things and obey, etc etc and is guaranteed heaven.”
John 3:16″For(AA) God so loved(AB) the world,[i](AC) that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not(AD) perish but have eternal life. 17For(AE) God did not send his Son into the world(AF) to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18(AG) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not(AH) believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19(AI) And this is the judgment:(AJ) the light has come into the world, and(AK) people loved the darkness rather than the light because(AL) their works were evil. 20(AM) For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light,(AN) lest his works should be exposed. 21But whoever(AO) does what is true(AP) comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
That “whoever believes in Him…”
Does that necessarily mean that you are guaranteed if you profess belief and do all the things on the list and follow all the requirements…that you are necessarily guaranteed to go to heaven?
Or, rather, could it mean…in the context that only God Regenerates His Chosen…that they are the only ones capable of True Belief in Jesus Christ the Son of God…and have been given the ability to believe and do all the things on the list because of the work of Jesus Christ and the empowering of the Holy Spirit.
The John three passage can only be true and not in conflict with the other passage if one takes the interpretation of the second example.
SHW said, ““Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.””
Can this still be true in the context that God Regenerates His chosen?
Yes, it can. It can be interpreted as an instruction to the Elect to continue in the doctrine.
The comment about “you will save both yourself and those who hear you”:
If the interpretation that this is a proof text for Salvation and that man “saves himself”…then that unravels the entire Word…it negates God’s Sovereignty and His preeminence to His creation…and thus cannot be true.
If the interpretation is that this means, in the context that God has Regenerated His chosen…and empowers them to do all the things in the doctrine…and that they will naturally do it…if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck…it’s Chosen…then this can be true and not contradict the Greater Truth.
God’s chosen still require instruction and are still called to obey. God is Sovereign and Man is Responsible can both be True in the context that God does the complete work…man is Regenerated by God through Faith…and then is transformed into a New Creation and then naturally does the “list”….
Antinomianism doesn’t disprove God’s Sovereignty…it merely proves those who fall into that mindset weren’t His chosen after all.
The chicken or the egg?
God Is.
Man is secondary.
For the Bible to be “true”…from a man’s logos perspective…God must be Sovereign and His Chosen must be Supernaturally Regenerated by God (through hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ)…and then they “believe” and do the “list”…naturally…as a New Creation.
If man has “free will” and “save’s himself”…then it disproves God Is and renders the Bible illogical.
Believe,
We know that Jesus promised to give (approve) the crown of eternal life to persons who love Him, so how can we know for sure that we really do love Him so that we may be assured that we will receive this crown after we die? (1:12 of James)
************
“Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”
Jesus has promised eternal life to the people who love Him. “Love” is the requirement necessary in order to receive the crown of eternal life. (13:13 of 1 Corinthians)
What type of “love” for God is required in order for us to be approved to receive the crown of life when we die?
Jesus tells us in (14:23-24 of John): “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him…..Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.” (1:20-23 of Jude)
“Obedience” to His commandments “proves” that we “love” Him. “Obedience” is the type of “love” that is required in order for us to inherit eternal life.
What does Jesus say about people who claim to know/love Him, but they do not also obey/keep His commandments?
In (2:3-5 of 1 John), Jesus states: “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.”
Jesus states that the people who truly know Him and love Him are the exact same people who obey His commandments.
Jesus states that the people who claim that they know (or love) Him, but who do not also keep/obey His commandments (as proof of their love for Him), are LIARS.
Jesus calls them liars!
People who do not keep/obey His commandments are people who do not love Him! They are Liars.
“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.” (5:3 of 1 John)
Jesus also explains plainly to us what happens to these liars when they die:
“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (21:8 Revelation)
All of these lying people are thrown into the lake of fire for eternity.
And, this is why, when these “Christians” call out “Lord, Lord” on Judgment Day, He will not know them and He will not let them enter into heaven.
(7:20-23 Matthew) “Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4
“You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” (2:24 James)
Believe,
Since God desires for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all, then He makes it possible for all of them to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:3-6
Are all of them saved? No.
Why not?
Because they use their own free wills to choose to disobey Him. God saves only the people who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 1:8
“We know that Jesus promised to give (approve) the crown of eternal life to persons who love Him, so how can we know for sure that we really do love Him so that we may be assured that we will receive this crown after we die? (1:12 of James)”
How can “we” do all the stuff and love Him from our “free will” and “save ourselves”?
Logically, if God Is…we cannot have “free will” and “save ourselves” and God still be Sovereign. There are competing Truths. We have to go with the Greater Truth.
All of the verses you listed can still be true…even if God Regenerates His chosen…and man doesn’t have “free will” and “save himself”…the million verses give instruction to the Elect…the Chosen…of what to do…and God has transformed them and empowered them with the Holy Spirit…and the “know” Him…so they do the list.
If man has “free will” and “saves himself”…it renders a long list of Scripture untrue…there is no way to resolve the competing truths and have God remain preeminent to man.
How does one know they are Saved? It is an innate peace that one has….and also read your long list 🙂
See the difference? Your long list is merely instruction and validation of the supernatural miracle that occurred when God Regenerated you and empowered you with the Holy Spirit and you became a New Creation.
Your long list is not a “to-do” list to “save yourself”…it is God who has “saved you” and transformed you into a “New Creation” and is an instruction manual so you know how to operate your new “you”…
BTW…Michael…I owe you a big apology. I cannot disprove Calvin’s Theology. I’ve been trying…and I can’t seem to do it.
Believe,
You’re still young… 🙂
Calvin was a man of the book and a man of history…in my opinion what is today called
“his” theology was Pauls theology and Christs theology.
The Romanists hated him because he could quote the church fathers against them…from memory.
He was fallible as was Luther as are all of us… but he was a godly genius as well.
If you want to see his work against Rome I suggest his “Letter to Cardinal Sadeleto” .
SHW…you quoted this verse:
1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man [1] Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
Who is “God our Savior”…it is Jesus Christ…Jesus is God…our Savior. The Father is not our Savior…it is Jesus. The Holy Spirit is not our Savior it is Jesus. The Three are God.
The Father does the giving to the Son…”all that the Father gives Me…”
God the Father gives the Son the Chosen, the Elect…and Jesus promises that He will not cast them out and will keep them.
Christ is a ransom for all and only the Elect and Chosen have the ability to believe and have Faith that is saving Faith because they have been Regenerated by God…man is incapable of Regenerating himself. Regeneration…being Born Again…becoming a New Creation…is supernatural and and act done by God…just as God created Adam.
That is the only interpretation that is logical and keeps God as Sovereign and can still be true.
Your interpretation makes many verses in Scripture untrue…and makes God’s Will subservient to man’s will…so we have to go with the interpretation that fits the Greater Truth…and can still be true.
Remember the riddle:
What is greater than God (only one option here for the riddle to be true)
More evil than the devil (only one option here for the riddle to be true)
The poor have it (lots of options here that can answer this question and be true without violating the greater truth)
The rich need it (lots of options here that can answer this question and be true without violating the greater truth)
And if you eat it, you’ll die? (lots of options here that can answer this question and be true without violating the greater truth)
When you have conflicting interpretations…which of the various interpretations submit to the Greater Truth found elsewhere in Scripture…and can still be true. There is your answer.
I goofed…here’s the correction:
Remember the riddle:
What is greater than God (only one option here for the riddle to be true)
More evil than the devil (only one option here for the riddle to be true)
The poor have it (lots of options here that can answer this question and be true in answering this question…however only one answer that doesn’t violate the greater truth)
The rich need it (lots of options here that can answer this question and be true in answering this question…however only one answer that doesn’t violate the greater truth)
And if you eat it, you’ll die? (lots of options here that can answer this question and be true in answering this question…however only one answer that doesn’t violate the greater truth)
….and of course, the one answer that is correct that doesn’t violate the Greater Truth…yet still answers all the questions correctly is…”nothing”.
Believe,
You asked if works/fruits are necessary in order to inherit eternal life.
Jesus gives us an example:
12-14 Mark “Now the next day, when they had come out from Bethany, He was hungry. 13 And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. 14 In response Jesus said to it, “Let no one eat fruit from you ever again.” And His disciples heard it.”
Finding no fruit, He cursed the fig tree. What happens to the tree?
20 Now in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. 21 And Peter, remembering, said to Him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree which You cursed has withered away.” 20-21 Mark
7:19 Matthew “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
What happens to this dead tree? It is thrown into the fire to be destroyed. James 2:20
However, since God desires for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus came as a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:3-7, He also keeps calling them until the moment they die, hoping that they will repent. 2 Peter 3:9
“He also spoke this parable: ‘A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8 But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’” 13:5-9 Luke
SHW…using Parables as proof text is flimsy. Parables are intentionally the way they are. Read what Scripture says:
Matthew 13:
The Purpose of the Parables
10Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11And he answered them, (J) “To you it has been given to know(K) the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12(L) For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not,(M) even what he has will be taken away. 13This is why I speak to them in parables, because(N) seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear,(O) nor do they understand. 14Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
(P) “‘You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
15For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears(Q) they can barely hear,
and(R) their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and(S) understand with their heart
and(T) turn, and I would heal them.’
16But(U) blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17(V) For truly, I say to you,(W) many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
What interpretations can be made from the Parables that doesn’t violate the Greater Truth?
The Parables can have an innumerable amount of interpretations applied to them and still appear true…however there is only one Greater Truth.
God Is.
SHW…did you ever consider and think on the Trinity?
Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall not pass away. 36″But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.”
What is the interpretation that doesn’t violate the Greater Truth…that can still be true from Scripture and not make untrue a big chunk of verses regarding God’s Sovereignty?
Re-read 1 Timothy two three through seven (and the entire chapter for that matter) and re-read 2 Peter three nine (and the entire chapter for that matter).
Ask yourself these questions:
Who is Jesus? He is God.
Is He distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit…yet is still God?
Who is God the Father? He is God.
Is God the Father distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit?
The Trinity…as I mentioned earlier in our conversation…is impossible for us to understand. What we can understand is that God Is.
It is not the Bible that is untrue…it is our limited ability to understand complex spiritual realities like the concept of Eternity vs. finite time…Physical Realm vs. Spiritual Realm…and the Trinity…that make it very difficult for us to comprehend Absolute Truth.
Michael,
RE: Calvin was a man of the book and a man of history…in my opinion what is today called “his” theology was Pauls theology and Christs theology.
The Romanists hated him because he could quote the church fathers against them…from memory.
****************
The early church fathers could think and teach whatever they wanted to think and teach until and unless they found out later that it contradicted promulgated doctrine. If their earlier thoughts and preaching did not match promulgated doctrine, then they had to refrain from teaching their earlier beliefs. How was doctrine determined? At Church Councils.
An example is given in Scripture: Circumcision.
Some thought “yes” Christians should be circumcised and some thought “no” they should not. This first council in Jerusalem, with Peter officiating, decided “no.”
James, bishop of Jerusalem, then immediately tells his own flock this binding promulgated decision because he is the head of the local church in Jerusalem and so it is his job to do this. After this council in Jerusalem, everyone in the whole Church had to adhere to the decision. The subject was closed.
Paul was not at this council:
16:3 of Acts: “Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek.”
There are two men named Cephas. There was the Apostle called Peter (or Simon or Simon Peter or Cephas), and the other Cephas who was one of the 70 disciples. Paul mentions both of them in Galatians. (It is translated incorrectly in the KJV and others.) The original Greek is translated correctly in the RSV:
RSV
2:7-14 of Galatians “but on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised [8] (for he who worked through Peter for the mission to the circumcised worked through me also for the Gentiles), [9] and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and
they to the circumcised; ……[11] But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
Latin:
Latin Vulgate Gal 2:7-14 “ sed e contra cum vidissent quod creditum est mihi evangelium praeputii sicut Petro circumcisionis Gal 2:8 qui enim operatus est Petro in apostolatum circumcisionis operatus est et mihi inter gentes Gal 2:9 et cum cognovissent gratiam quae data est mihi Iacobus et Cephas et Iohannes qui videbantur columnae esse dextras dederunt mihi et Barnabae societatis ut nos in gentes ipsi autem in circumcisionem……Gal 2:11 cum autem venisset Cephas Antiochiam in faciem ei
restiti quia reprehensibilis erat Gal 2:12 prius enim quam venirent quidam ab Iacobo cum gentibus edebat cum autem venissent subtrahebat et segregabat se timens eos qui ex circumcisione erant Gal 2:13 et simulationi eius consenserunt ceteri Iudaei ita ut et Barnabas duceretur ab eis in illa simulatione Gal 2:14 sed cum vidissem quod non recte ambularent ad veritatem evangelii dixi 2 Cephae coram omnibus si tu cum Iudaeus sis gentiliter et non iudaice vivis quomodo gentes cogis iudaizare”
Translation Note: Petro is Peter the Apostle; Cephas and Cephae are Cephas the disciple.
There were other people named James and John also within the original 70 disciples. These three names were common names in those days.
Did Peter eat with the Gentiles? Yes. Even before the council convened, he ate with them boldly and he was severely criticized for it (11:1-3 of Acts). He patiently explained why he ate with them and then that was the end of the discussion. (11:4-18 of Acts)
That is quite piece of historical and Scriptural revision.
I side with Calvin;
“This is another thunderbolt which strikes the Papacy of Rome. It exposes the impudent pretensions of the Roman Antichrist, who boasts that he is not bound to assign a reason, and sets at defiance the judgment of the whole Church. Without rashness, without undue boldness, but in the exercise of the power granted him by God, this single individual chastises Peter, in the presence of the whole Church; and Peter submissively bows to the chastisement. Nay, the whole debate on those two points was nothing less than a manifest overthrow of that tyrannical primacy, which the Romanists foolishly enough allege to be founded on divine right. If they wish to have God appearing on their side, a new Bible must be manufactured; if they do not wish to have him for an open enemy, those two chapters of the Holy Scriptures must be expunged.”
John Calvin, Calvin’s Commentaries (Complete) (trans. John King; Accordance electronic ed. Edinburgh: Calvin Translation Society, 1847), n.p.
“It is finished” declared Jesus on the cross.
What is finished? The Old Covenant.
Why is it finished? Jesus completed it (He fulfilled it).
“Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” (24:44 Luke)
(5:17-19 Matthew) “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” (31:31-32 of Jeremiah)
Jesus fulfilled every jot and every tittle of the Law of Moses and so the Old Covenant is no longer in force. He has made it obsolete. He replaced it with His better covenant. Hebrews 7:21-22
(8:13 of Hebrews) “In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” (The Old Covenant temple with its animal sacrifices is not actually destroyed until 70 A.D.)
Jesus replaced the first covenant (Old Covenant) with His New Covenant at the exact time of His death. He ratified (put into force) His New Covenant by His death. He made peace between God and man by His death on the cross. Ephesians 2:13-17
(9:16-18 of Hebrews) “For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.”
“It is finished.” Jesus finished the Old Covenant by His death on the cross. He also ratified His New Covenant by His death on the cross.
The Old Law of Moses is no longer in force. The Royal Law (of love) has taken its place.
Michael,
Catholic propagandists are quite adept at historical and Scriptural revisionism.
If you can’t dazzle ’em with brlliance…
Luth,
The problem they have is that once someone studies beyond their Roman enclosure the whole thing collapses like a house of cards.
The interesting thing is that their best scholars don’t try to sell the historic revisionism…
Believe,
God is sovereign. He chose to give mankind free will as a gift. Why? Because He wants people to freely choose Him to be their God. He wants to be in eternal fellowship with people who love Him for who He is (their Creator).
God created the angels. The angels who loved Him for who He is did not rebel against Him. The angels who did not love Him for who He is chose to rebel against their Creator and so they fell away from the grace in which they were created. None of the angels will ever get a second chance. They were given only one chance to prove their love for Him. Whatever choice they made is permanent.
God created Adam. Adam freely chose to disobey God. Adam fell from grace.
Since mankind was created lower than the angels and so it did not have the angels’ intellect, etc., God decided to give it another chance to spend eternity with Him.
God desires for all men to come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all.
God is not double-minded.
Since it is God’s desire that all men be saved…., etc., He will not prevent any person from obtaining salvation if this person loves Him and works righteousness. He also will not force any person to love Him and work righteousness and thereby be saved against his own will.
Who does God save?
Acts 10:34-35 “Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”
This is really enough on this subject, Okay? 🙂
SHW said, “God had mercy on Rahab, the Gentile. As a result of her obedience to His prompting to do good, she and her family were saved. 2:25 of James”
Or rather, God had mercy on Rahab…and the result was her obedience.
Michael,
RE: The interesting thing is that their best scholars don’t try to sell the historic revisionism…
**********
The best scholars do not always agree and perhaps more times than not, they disagree. However, in these types of things, there is no incontrovertible proof for either side. Believe what you want to. I will do the same. 🙂 God does know the truth and that is what matters because we will all find out His Truth on Judgment Day.
SHW said, “This is really enough on this subject, Okay? 🙂 ”
It’s a hard thing to let go of and realize that we are not God and that we have nothing to do with Creation or the New Creation…I know…I’ve been fighting it for a very long time…and poking at it from as many angles as my limited finite man mind can come up with.
…I’ll respond to all of your questions…for now, I have to go for awhile…and in the meantime I pray the Holy Spirit directs my answers and grants me the ability to answer according to God’s Will.
SHW…I also don’t want to give the wrong impression…
There are Wheat and Tares…and I do not assume to know who God has Regenerated and who He hasn’t. There are some who clearly are not the Chosen and Elect. They deny Christ. Those who claim Christ…I don’t know…I am not God.
Fruit can be counterfeited via man’s volition. The only works that will be counted as righteousness are those done by a person who God has supernaturally Regenerated and is saved by Belief, Repentance and Faith in Jesus Christ our Messiah.
I imagine that there are those God Regenerates from a variety of Theological positions that have Christ as their Messiah…whether or not they add a bunch of stuff to it. God will save who He saves…and His Elect will be guided by the Holy Spirit to the Truth.
I have a friend who was raised in the Mormon Church…and read the Bible along with the Book of Mormon. This person, I believe (though only God knows) has been Regenerated by God supernaturally…while reading the Gospel of Jesus Christ in their Bible…even though all the other “stuff” was piled on around them. This person ended up leaving the Mormon Church as God revealed more of Himself to them…and as the Holy Spirit directed this New Creation to a different place.
Believe,
SHW said, “God had mercy on Rahab, the Gentile. As a result of her obedience to His prompting to do good, she and her family were saved. 2:25 of James”
Or rather, God had mercy on Rahab…and the result was her obedience.
***********
Merciful God gave Rahab two choices. She chose to obey Him, rather than to disobey Him, and so she then hid the two messengers sent by Joshua and as a result of her own free will choice to obey God, she was rewarded with life for herself and her father’s household. Her family was thus spared from slaughter.
%%%%%%%%%%
Hey, all I wanted to do on this forum was to give an actual Catholic’s opinion on some things. Many Protestants insist that Catholics believe in a “works-based” or “works only” salvation rather than a “faith only” salvation which the Protestants believe in.
We Catholics believe in a “faith plus works” salvation (faith working through love) and anyone who claims we believe otherwise is distorting what we believe and this cannot be pleasing to God. Disagree with what we really believe, not your false notion of what we believe.
I will be happy to give my idea of what a specific Scripture passage means (and why) if anyone should ask me, and I will also be happy to listen to your idea (and why) of what a specific Scripture passage means. No arguing though, okay? It is best to agree to disagree in Christian charity toward each other rather than to argue. Share ideas, but not tempers. 🙂
Believe,
I am not qualified to answer your questions and I never will be. It is not God’s purpose for me to know the answers to such “deep” questions!
(2:8-9 of Ephesians) “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
God saved me by His grace alone. I accepted His grace when my parents chose to have me baptized when I was eleven days old. Now, as a result of His grace and mercy, I am required by God to do His will (remain in His grace) until I die if I desire to enter into eternal life with Him. Romans 12:1
My purpose was decided by God before the foundation of the world and this is what God commanded of me:
(2:10 of Ephesians) “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
I must do the works which He prepared (His will) for me to do if I desire to enter into eternal life. Matthew 7:21-23
Believe,
You are hitting on something vitally important here…our obedience is in grateful response to the grace we have been given, not a fearful obeisance to a harsh authority.
SHW…I really like you. 🙂 Please stay a part of the PP family. We can discuss and not argue 🙂
“I must do the works which He prepared (His will) for me to do if I desire to enter into eternal life. Matthew 7:21-23”
My position is rather, I will enter in to eternal life because I am a New Creation who God has Regenerated by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ…which He has given me…I will do His Will because I am a New Creation…I am not a New Creation because I “do” His Will.
We cannot “create” ourselves.
We can agree to disagree…and one day we will find out for sure 🙂 …and only God knows who His Chosen…His Elect are…not me.
I’m surprised this thread is still going.
Sometimes I almost start to agree with SHW and then a twist is entered in and I can’t.
I believe, with my whole heart, that God chose the RCC church to do His work. Because of the world wide Roman conquests and after-wards, the domination of the Holy Roman Church, God took His very words to the entire world to read and hear about His grace and compassion. It is no wonder Paul wanted so desperately to get to Rome and preach the Gospel there.
However, even a cursory scan of the history of the RCC church reveals a politically corrupt, perverse and wicked leadership. Men who stood behind the mantle of “holiness” and dominated people for their own personal gain. Too often in violation of the very scriptures they claimed to hold soul authority over to interpret to a hurting world.
But, what about such and such? She/he was an absolute saint who wouldn’t/won’t lift a finger of hate or aggression to anyone or anything! Every organization from Buddhist to Watchtower has such fine and admirable people, why even atheist have people who would embarrass the average church goer by their qualities. But these do not, nor will ever excuse the excesses of false teachers, prophets and leaders who use their power to subjugate others for their own personal desires.
I will never submit to the doctrines of these men nor the organizations they represent. Yes I feel strongly about the RCC.
I have to leave my blood boils over the subject.
SHW, to put a tag end on this… as you have righteously tooted your opinions of the one true church according to your in depth knowledge of traditional Catholicism or some such… i have grown weary following them (gave up half way thru this thread)
as i type i am aware of a late middle-aged woman (Protestant) whose husband has left her and taken up with a younger devout R.C. woman – she is instructing the man’s son in your faith. He’s learning to say the Rosary and that Jesus is a Saint among Saints (we’re not, of course). She’s a good and holy, devout woman who won’t sleep with the boy’s father until he’s divorced from the boy’s mother and free to marry in the church, which, of course he will be free to do, since only the sanctified marriages (by the church) count with God… legalism! but she is playing by your rules…
Bob and Em,
People can say that they are Christian or Catholic or Lutheran or whatever they choose to call themselves. This is a free country. We do not have laws preventing people from calling themselves whatever they want to call themselves.
Many Catholics will continue to call themselves Catholic until the day they die (because of their baptism in the Catholic Church) and they do this even though they have not set a foot in any church, Catholic or otherwise, for 50 years. Are these persons living a Catholic life? No.
Many Catholics and this is due to their own bad actions, are denying the faith that they say they believe in. God judges and knows who is abiding in Him and He also knows who is not.
The things that you see bad Catholics doing is not what my faith teaches us to do. They call themselves Catholic, but they are liars. They are disgusting bad Catholics who do not follow their religion and they cause great scandal. They pick and choose what they want to believe in within the Catholic religion (if anything at all!) and then they do just whatever they want to do. They do not really care about what the Church teaches or how much they are displeasing God.
(1:16 of Titus) “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.” (1 John 2:4-6)
These so-called Catholics are fooling themselves and apparently also many others (including non-Catholics) since you believe that what they do is actually what my Church teaches them to do!
What does St. Paul say to do about these evil “brethren?” I agree with him!
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 “I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”
So, I do not spend any time with bad Catholics unless I have to.
Michael,
RE: You are hitting on something vitally important here…our obedience is in grateful response to the grace we have been given, not a fearful obeisance to a harsh authority.
**********
(Romans 12:1-2) It is reasonable for God to demand obedience from us since His Son humbled Himself in order to redeem us from Adam’s sin as His kindness to us. The kindness of God is His grace. (2:7 of Ephesians) We must continue in this kindness (grace) if we desire to enter into eternal life when we die.
“Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.” (11:22 of Romans)
(1:16-18 of 1 Peter) “because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”
This is why Paul states: “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;” (2:12 of Philippians)
Unbelief.
What is it? What or who is an unbeliever?
(5:8 of 1Timothy) “But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.” (2:20 of 2 Peter)
An unbeliever is a person who has denied the faith. We know that some unbelievers are people who never believed in Christ (or God) at any point in time. But, how does a person who is a believer deny the faith and thereby become an unbeliever as a result of this denial of faith?
We have a good example in Scripture:
The writer of Hebrews warns us that we must remain faithful to God’s commands if we desire to enter into eternal life or else we will end up like the Israelites. The Israelites who fled from Egypt were made to wander in the desert for 40 years until that generation all died. That generation was not allowed to enter into the Promised Land because they adored the golden calf and this is called the sin of idolatry.
Moses, who did not adore the golden calf, also was not allowed to enter into the Promised Land although he was allowed to gaze at it from a distance shortly before he died. Why was Moses not allowed to enter? Disobedience. (34:4-5 of Deuteronomy)
Moses disobeyed God when he struck the rock twice instead of speaking to it as God ordered Him to do and so as a result of His disobedience, he was not allowed to enter into the Promised Land. (20:7-12 of Numbers) God said that Moses disobeyed Him because he did not believe Him. Moses denied the “power of God” when He disobeyed Him. (3:2-7 of 2 Timothy)
If you believe God, then you will choose to obey Him! If you do not believe God, then you will choose to disobey Him. Obedience is belief and disobedience is unbelief.
(3:7-19 of Hebrews) “Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:
“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Belief is equated with obedience. Unbelief is equated with disobedience.
(13:43 of Acts) “Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.”
If you believe God, then you will choose to obey Him! If you do not believe God, then you will choose to disobey Him. Obedience is belief and disobedience is unbelief.
If we desire to enter into eternal life, then we must obey God’s commands. We deny the faith when we disobey God. (1:16 of Titus) (5:3-7 of Ephesians)
Sin is disobedience to God.
(6:7 of Galatians) “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.”
God freed us from our sins when we were baptized. We (our souls) were washed, sanctified, and justified through baptism. (1 Corinthians 6:11) Baptism spiritually regenerated us (we became holy, 3:5 of Titus) and because of our holiness we became sons of God. (4:6 of Galatians) Because we are sons of God, we now have hope of entering into eternal life when we die. (3:7 of Titus) Hope is not a guarantee.
So now that we have become God’s children through baptism, we must continue to sow our fruit to holiness if we desire to enter into eternal life.
(6:22 of Romans) “But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.”
(6:8 of Galatians) “For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.” (7:19-24 of Matthew)
(8:34 of John) “Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.”
(1:10 of 1 John) “If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.”
We all sin, so will any of us enter into eternal life? Yes. (13:23-28 of Luke)
(6:16 of Romans) “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?”
(5:16-17 of 1 John) “If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. ….…. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.”
If a person sins “sin not leading to death after baptism,” he grieves the Holy Spirit, but not to the point where the Holy Spirit is insulted and so He continues to abide in your soul. Since He is still present within your soul even though you have sinned, you still retain the sanctifying grace (Holy Spirit’s presence) within your soul. (4:29-32 of Ephesians) It is the Holy Spirit’s presence within your soul which guarantees you eternal life. If He is still abiding within your soul at the exact time of your death, then you are guaranteed to enter into eternal life after the last judgment. (5:5 of 2 Corinthians)
“Sin leading to death” grievously insults the Holy Spirit and as a consequence of this insult, He leaves your soul. Without Him (your guarantee) living within your soul at the time of your death, you cannot inherit eternal life. (10:26-30 of Hebrews) Instead, you are destroyed by the consuming fire of God. (12:28-29 of Hebrews)
(5:18 of 1 John) “We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.”
The person who chooses to obey God is the person who keeps himself in the grace of God. When Satan tempts him, this person resists the temptation and he chooses to not sin. (5:8-10 of 1 Peter)
There is a great difference between “sin leading to death” and “sin not leading to death.” “Sin leading to death” is called mortal sin because it causes the death of spiritual life within the soul (33:12-20 of Ezekiel) and “sin not leading to death” is called venial sin because it does not cause the death of spiritual life within the soul. A person who sins “sin leading to death” is now called a son of disobedience. (5:5-7 of Ephesians)
(24:16 of Proverbs) “For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.” Large numbers of venial sins on the soul do not ever equal even one mortal sin.
There is a difference of degree and therefore a difference in the severity of punishment between venial sins and mortal sins. However, venial sins do weaken us spiritually and so we may more easily sin again and even sin worse sins if we do not nail these venial sins to the cross as soon as possible. (6:10-12 of Ephesians) (5:24-25 of Galatians)
Jesus gives us an example of the degrees of sin and their punishments:
(5:22 of Matthew) “But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.” NIV
If you die with unrepented mortal sin on your soul, then you will not enter into eternal life. The Holy Spirit cannot live in a soul that is defiled with mortal sin. If the Holy Spirit is not abiding within your soul at the time of your death, then you do not inherit eternal life. (3:16-18 of 1 Corinthians)
When a person repents of his sins, then Jesus removes the guilt for that sin because His sacrifice on the cross has infinite merits and they cannot ever be depleted. (20:22-23 of John) (2:1 of 1 John) (6:10 of Romans)
After a person has repented and confessed his sins, Jesus forgives him, but he still must atone for all the harm that his sins have caused others. (33:13-16 Ezekiel)
He may atone for them by prayers, fasting, alms, doing good to his neighbor, etc. (9:3 of Daniel) (24:17 of Acts) Love covers (atones for) a multitude of sins. (4:8 of 1 Peter) (25:34-40 of Matthew)
If he has not completely atoned for them by the time that he dies, then he will be put into prison until they have all been atoned for completely/perfectly. (5:25-26 of Matthew) We call this prison purgatory because sins are purged by the consuming fire of God. (3:14-15 of 1 Corinthians) After he has been purified, he will then be approved to enter into eternal life. (1:28 of Colossians) (3:12 of Philippians) (3:2 of Revelation)
“Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.” (1:12 James)
I have been shown that I needed to add more Scripture and explanation and so I have done so. Revelation 3:2
Now, that I know better, I can do better. 🙂
If interested, you can read the improved version at: http://www.members.cox.net/studyhisword/SinDisobedience.htm
There are direct links to Biblegateway.com for every Scripture reference that I listed that I did not already quote in its entirety.
I will be adding “Unbelief” and “It is Finished” to the website when I have time. I will post the addresses for them on this forum in case anyone is interested (if allowed to by Michael).
Hosea 4:6 “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.”