When Politics Promotes Heresy

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32 Responses

  1. Xenia says:

    Some (note, I said “some,” not “all”) of the people at my old CC would eat this stuff up.

    – Always on the lookout for red heifers and other signs the temple is about to be rebuilt. I always wondered if they planned to go and participate in the sacrifice of oxen or if they would preach Christ, the only sacrifice that saves.

    -Enthusiasm for Jewish feasts in lieu of Christian holidays which they consider to be pagan. Low regard for Christmas, especially.

    – Keeping kosher, keeping the Saturday Sabbath

    – Speaking fake Hebrew

    – G-d

    -Can’t bring themselves to say “Jesus,” it’s got to be Yeshua

    -Visiting the Holy Land but mocking the ancient Christian churches there.

    -Letting a non-Christian Jew bring the message at church.

    -Enthusiasm for Jewish-sounding music (nothing wrong with that.)

    -AND, to top it off, claiming those who don’t see it there way are participants in The Great Heresy, as an ex-CC pastor told me. Yes, according to this guy, The Great Heresy is not believing in an extreme (note I said “extreme”) dispensationalist view of Israel.

    Some (some) of these people quit CC and joined Messianic congregations.

    My old CC did not have a cross up front, we had a menorah.

  2. Michael says:


    It’s a very attractive trap for some evangelicals.

    I’ve looked in vain for anything in her writings or videos affirming that Jesus was the Messiah…

  3. Babylon's Dread says:

    A wave of this nonsense hit our city 15 years ago, reached a zenith about halfway through that. Then the churches experienced the inner rot of the whole thing and became more and more intolerant of it. Now they mostly huddle in their own groups.

    They sniff me out very quickly and run like roaches in the light. Usually, shaking the dust off their feet.

    I have a constant mantra to anyone who suddenly begins keeping sabbath or the feast or eschewing foods. I tell them go ahead but realize the law is never satisfied and will require more and more of them until they either completely become pharisees or they abandon their faith altogether.

    The Law never relents, it never is at peace, it never allows you to say “it is enough” so I say Jesus louder and louder until the demons drive them to leave.

    Of course I exaggerate to make my point.

    Kosherless Dread

  4. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    All forms of “messianic Judaism” are enemies of the gospel.

    I don’t see the difference between this lady trotting out OT passages and mingling the with American politics and those who bring up the Leviticus passages about treating the foreigner and mingling it with politics. I can’t count the times I heard that quoted on the House floor.

    But zI am sure the error of my comment will be pointed out.

  5. Duane Arnold says:

    # 4

    I’ve always had some problems with Leviticus (in context)… I’ll just stick with the words of Jesus in the Gospels…

  6. Xenia says:

    I have seen Messianic Jews eventually deny the Holy Trinity. It seems like the next logical step for them.

  7. Xenia says:

    Actually, I think I am using the wrong term here…. most of these heretics aren’t ethnic Jews at all but there usually follow some leader who is. Hebrew Roots…. that’s the term they were using around here.

  8. Xenia says:

    I think the Sheep and the Goats passage is very helpful for Christians.

  9. Babylon's Dread says:

    In my city they taught that Jesus came to give the Gentiles and entrance into the Law and when he calls for keeping his commandments it means Torah. The thing that helped here is the moral and personal collapse suffered by some of these enlightened teachers.

    Any way you slice this the compelling nature of telling people that God has a favorite people and they can join in. Favored is not favorite, chosen for the redemption story is not chosen for their own intrinsic nature. God favored Israel for the redemption of all not for ascendancy.

    But I preach to the choir.

  10. The New Victor says:

    I don’t know who my mother was watching on tv, but she tried to encourage me to go Jewish “because we forget that Jesus was Jewish.” She also gave me a copy of The Shemitah (or something like that), which I never got around to reading. I suggested that she read Ephesians and get back to me.

    That all being said, I was invited to take part in a Passover dinner by my Israeli friends once. It was interesting.

  11. Michael says:

    I find the concept of neighbor love and mercy for the oppressed throughout Scripture.
    Your mileage may vary.
    I have no issue with extracting truth from the Older Testament…I have huge issues with promoting a heretic to unsuspecting Christians.

  12. Em says:

    YHWH Exists? Strange term to apply to the person of God….. I never thought of the Creator of the universe as existing…. How about simply YHWH IS! ?

    It isn’t so much the exploration of the Faith down thru time as it is your motivation that determines where you end up. …. Just my humble opinikn … dunno, tho, do i? ?

  13. Dan from Georgia says:

    Michael, what is “Tanakh Observant” referring to?…does it mean one has to observe the (Jewish) law to be a “real” or “true” believer?

  14. Michael says:

    I believe so…

  15. Dan from Georgia says:

    Yeah, a friend and I met one of these people once at a friends yard party. Funny how they always have to work into conversation their errant beliefs.

  16. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Well these people are no more dangerous than dispensationalist rapture crowd who would foist upon the church a Jewish kingdom raised at the end of time to renew and fulfill the old covenants with Jews and to complete their salvation experience with 1,000 years of blood sacrifices in the rebuilt temple before their king sitting on his throne.
    In fact, poor Jodell sounds harmless.

  17. Em says:

    Yep, gotta watch out for us Christians of a dispensational millennial reign of Christ over humanity view – be warned cuz we’re out here lurking in the bushes like snipe hunters ?

    The ever watchful MLD will save you from us, tho…

    The easily baited Em sez. ?

  18. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, it is a warning – just as Michael’s post was a warning.

  19. Dan from Georgia says:

    gotta love the snipe hunt!

  20. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I only shoot clay snipes.

  21. Michael says:

    There is zero comparison that can or should be made between dispensationalists and Christ denying heretics…and no further comparison will be allowed here.

  22. bob1 says:

    There is zero comparison that can or should be made between dispensationalists and Christ denying heretics

    Totally agree. How ridiculous!

    While I’m not a dispie, I sure have benefitted from the writings of some of its authors and professors.

    They do write about a lot of topics other than dispensationalism. Plus, my understanding
    is that it’s evolved and not everyone is on board with all of it.

  23. Michael says:


    I’m not a dispensationalist and have real differences with them theologically.
    However, they are my brethren in Christ.
    You are correct…there are lots of flavors in the dispensational camp.

    Onstott appears to be a heretic.

  24. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    bob1 – it is the reason I was specific in my designation – dispensation / rapture theology. If they write correctly about Jesus and salvation etc fine. But when they have redeemed Christians in the temple performing blood sacrifices – well, I draw the line.

    That’s fine and others can give them cover.

  25. CM says:

    Just an observation…

    Seems to me all these “Hebrews Roots Movement” people are falling into the error of the Judaizers. The apostle Paul had some choice words for them, i.e., they might as well cut the whole thing off or something to that effect….

  26. His Kid says:

    I hesitate to comment since there are some pretty strong statements here. I can’t speak about the lady who wrote the book (never heard of her) and I will avoid the topic of politics. My comment is only about the term “Tanakh Observant.” The people I know and love that are “Tanakh Observant” are Orthodox Christians whose beliefs are no different from mine or (I suspect), yours. The Hebrew word “Torah” is more correctly translated “teaching”…not “law,” and they find great joy learning all that they can about our Father’s teachings. They *observe* God’s *teachings.* It has nothing to do with trying to earn salvation or pay for their own sins, or putting themselves “under the law.” It is an act of love and a deepening of their relationships with their Father. It is really a gut-punch to hear my friends labeled heretics when I know for a fact that their love for, and their commitment to Jesus is deep and beautiful. I don’t deny that their are a lot of crazy ideas floating around all along the Christian continuum these days so I understand when people respond negatively to what they are seeing and hearing out there concerning some of these movements. But I would encourage all my brothers and sisters in Christ to be more cautious about using a broad brush to describe anyone in the Body of Christ. Love and Peace

  27. Michael says:


    Good to see you.
    This woman specifically states that one of her objectives is to convert people out of Christianity.

    While I do recognize that there are Messianic Christians, I personally think that whole sub section is problematic theologically, even if the people aren’t.

    If they affirm Christ, they are family…

  28. His Kid says:

    Thanks, Michael. As I said, I can’t comment on this woman, and I can’t really comment on the theological perspective because, frankly, the movement is all over the place theologically–but I also see that in what we would call mainstream Christianity. This blog has been one that has consistently reported on those who have taken Truth and twisted it for their own gain. So, it is a real challenge to walk truthfully and faithfully in Christ these days–it’s not just the Hebrew Roots Movement. It’s everywhere. But many who are diving deep into the Hebrew Scriptures are discovering that ALL of God’s teaching points to Jesus and there are beautiful and amazing insights to be found. I have learned much from watching their spiritual journey and I can tell you without a doubt–they are family.

  29. Steve says:

    The spiritual gift of biblical discernment in America is absolutely essential now more than ever. Unfortunately, many of the evangelical Christian churches have adopted a business model of governance and most of these kinds of spiritual decisions are turned into financial decisions instead. When this happens every possible heresy within the church manifests itself. As Xenia pointed out that in her old CC many there would eat this stuff up. My experience was the same and since for the most part CC follows the CEO business model for church governance, they really have no way to guard themselves against such dangers. They basically frown upon the ancient creeds which serve this exact purpose.

  30. Kevin H says:

    I believe I have commented here a couple times before about Reggie White when it came to this subject, but I’ll go ahead again, anyway. Reggie was an NFL great and is my all time favorite football player. He was also a minister who was very bold in proclaiming Jesus Christ and the Christian faith. Before his sudden and unexpected passing in his sleep at only the age of 43, he had become very serious about some kind of form of Messianic Judaism.

    He gave up being a pastor and stopped preaching and proclaiming the Christian faith in such a bold and frequent fashion and instead sequestered himself in study of the new beliefs he was taking on. He had only started speaking a little bit publicly about his new beliefs before he passed, but I got the impression from the things he did say that he was now saying to be a real Christian, one had to adhere to this whole new set of beliefs and had to reject a lot of their previous beliefs. He spoke as if he had found out who God really is and was ashamed for previously misleading so many people most of the rest of his life.

    It was a shame where Reggie White ended up at and how his new beliefs had a significant and detrimental effect on his proclamation of the Gospel. I do believe that those who adhere to Messianic Judaism can still have a saving faith, even if the term Christian is rejected. However, there does seem to be a lot of traps and snares and dangers in adhering to such beliefs.

  31. Michael says:


    We used to have one of those sects on here all the time trying to snare people…demanding that I debate them, etc.

    Once someone is snared it’s like trying to talk to a faithful JW…

  32. Kevin H says:


    I think I kind of remember that. It may have been when from when I first started reading at the PhxP or maybe even when I read through some of the archives at that time when they were still available. I do kind of remember somebody who was quite audacious and aggressive about these types of beliefs.

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