A Christian Martyr?
I wish I didn’t have to write about Charlie Kirk or his death.
I didn’t pay much attention to him when he was alive…as soon as someone spouts conspiracy theories about the 2020 election or claiming that white people are being replaced by invaders over the southern border, I relegate them to the list of people I choose to ignore.
However, there is a new narrative being propagated that I simply can’t wish away.
That narrative is that upon his assassination, Kirk became a Christian martyr.
That…is simply not the case.
Kirk did not die because of his faith, he died because a twisted human couldn’t handle his political convictions.
He may be a political martyr and a symbol for Christian nationalism going forward…but he didn’t die because of his proclamation of Christ.
Claiming that he did is claiming that all he believed and expressed was approved of by God…and that’s why it is being asserted.
His assassination is already being used to suppress the voices of any who oppose Trump, his policies, or his administration.
Political violence is a direct assault on American democracy…using an assassination to suppress your political opponents is a bloodless act of political violence.
There is nothing in either of our political parties that remotely resembles traditional Christianity or the Christ…in fact, both sides are contributing to an environment that may produce actual Christian martyrs…who die resisting all their lies about the faith once delivered.
Charlie Kirk’s death was a horrible tragedy for his family and supporters and a criminal act that will justly result in the execution of the perpetrator.
Whatever else it becomes will be determined…
Russel Moore speaks wisely, as usual…
I think Christians are looking for a martyr, and they found one in Charlie Kirk. I was never overly impressed with him, and I didn’t believe in much of what he stood for. I think Christians who feel “persecuted” (and we don’t know what persecution is in this country) are looking for a rallying point. I have grave concerns about another Jan 6 government take-over attempt, where harmed “patriots” storm the CDC because they didn’t rescind the childhood vaccination protocol (or something similar). The fact that the government is going after free speech issues concerns me , even if I find what Kimmel said abhorrent. At some point, someone will have to stand up to the current administration, and it may get quite ugly.
Linn,
As usual, you speak well and wisely.
You would think that calmer voices would prevail after such a tragedy…but that’s not happening.
I probably (certainly) liked Charlie Kirk better than most of you, and I do believe he was killed for his beliefs, which were informed by his understanding of the Scriptures, which is different from most here and me too, in some cases. I did cringe at some of the things he said. I didn’t follow him closely because in my mind he belonged to Calvary Chapel Land and Orthodoxy has enough right-wingers to keep me occupied. In the past few days I’ve watched quite a few of his Q and A videos and I was impressed enough with most of his responses to gladly call him brother and even martyr.
But people are going nuts. There’s one loud group claiming Israel was behind it because, they claim, Charlie was going soft on Israel. Others are claiming it’s a false flag operation and it’s really right-wingers who killed him. Myself, I think this guy just wanted to impress his romantic interest, nothing more than that.
People are reporting that their churches were packed last Sunday. Ours was fuller than usual. If Charlie’s death gets people into church, this is a very good thing, assuming they are there for the Lord and not for the Cause. Orthodoxy has been experiencing the Surge for over a year now, not related to Charlie Kirk. Churches that used to baptize a few people every year are now baptizing 50 at a time. I think most conservative churches are also experiencing sudden growth. As I say, it’s got to be based on genuine repentance and not politics.
I think we are experiencing a revival, it’s just not coming from the direction or the people that was expected. May all come to a genuine faith in Our Lord no matter what political beliefs they hold.
Xenia,
” If Charlie’s death gets people into church, this is a very good thing, assuming they are there for the Lord and not for the Cause. ”
There is the heart of the matter.
Only time will tell…
I didn’t know much about Charlie Kirk until the shooting. So, over the last week I’ve been doing some research. He seemed to be very intelligent. I came across a message he gave earlier this year to pastors at something called the FAITH FORWARD conference. The speech was called, “Be a true church, not a trembling church.” What he shared I couldn’t get on board with, as it felt like he was trying to manipulate pastors to carry out his own agenda/vision. Honestly, he sounded a little like Mark Driscoll. Sorry, Charlie, but I’ll let the scriptures inform me of what a true church is. I believe the intention is probably good, but there are some lines that can’t be crossed.
A few years ago (maybe even now?) Christians were quoting Jordan Peterson (a Canadian philosopher0 like he was the smartest man on the planet. Except-he wasn’t even a Christian! It bothered some people that he wasn’t a Christian, and they debated him. When that didn’t work, he seemed to “disappear” from being emphasized in evangelical circles.
All that to say is that a certain kind of Christian is always looking for the next guru. Perish the thought of reading and studying God’s Word!
So true that Kirk wasn’t a Christian martyr, but rather a political one. The sad thing is when so many Christians are now propping up Kirk as a Christian martyr and making him out to have been such a great Christian, there are so many others seeing this who had big problems with Kirk and we’re offended if not even hurt by him. A good number of these people are unbelievers. So they look at all of this and think, if this is what Christianity and their Jesus is all about, then I don’t want to have anything to do with it
I know a bit about martyrs… He is not a Christian martyr, full stop.
ttps://mereorthodoxy.com/augustine-charlie-kirk?utm_campaign=13660601-Mere Orthodoxy | Weekly Digest&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8vcd4JVGbTbRQ4NFQ_Cz4h4wPS9gAmdKgz5fd66iRgTOCp3W8er8T7MecHR8IZM7EriDSPI8e9930Z6r2V4iLis7i6WQ&_hsmi=381070073&utm_content=381070073&utm_source=hs_email
A link to a thoughtful article.
What I see happening is people are coming out of the woodwork trying to cash in on the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
Books out in less than 24 hours. Dozens of songs, podcasts, news flashes. Even a so-called expert blaming the body armor that he was wearing. It’s becoming a three-ring circus.
Buy the collectible glow in the dark plastic bobble heads before they all disappear. There really is a sucker born again every minute.
A Super Bowl-sized funeral seems to be part of the plan. TV coverage: on and on it goes.
Thank you Xenia,
He is a political martyr whose faith fueled his dogmas and definitely contributes to his death. Martyrdom is its own murky mess. I knew on first read that Foxe’s Book of Martyrs was hagiography told as biography.
Jim Eliot was a missionary but I don’t think he got killed because of his actual faith rather his faith created the risk. To the killers he was just a threat.
Stephen was a definite martyr for Jesus but there was plenty of politics woven in.
Even Jesus was killed for his theology of temple and his dangerous views of kingdom. You might call it his aberrant nationalism.
But I’ll stop poking bears. Like most I paid little attention to him. He was a phenomenon. He was appealing to students when they’d been captured by ideology. He loved Jesus and reminded me of the zeal of the 60s and 70s. I’ll bet he was not terribly far from Michael’s earliest faith.
But he was MAGA and his policies on nation and boundaries were MAGA. I think he was likened to antichrist in his thinking here. And he was said here to be worshipping another god — perhaps a national idol.
I love him, love his beautiful witness, his clarity, his thoughtfulness, I love that he left us better – though not less divided. Jesus comes to mind.
Politically – above all – I love his devotion to Free Speech – republicans have joined democrats in parsing that to fit their own agendas.
But I wish he wasn’t gone. He was in my city a month ago and I chose to stay home. No regrets but Charlie was beautiful and complex and we need him. Nevertheless we cling to a kingdom that cannot be shaken.
I Am Charlie Kirk Dread.
Linns link is good.
https://mereorthodoxy.com/augustine-charlie-kirk?utm_campaign=13660601-Mere%20Orthodoxy%20|%20Weekly%20Digest&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8vcd4JVGbTbRQ4NFQ_Cz4h4wPS9gAmdKgz5fd66iRgTOCp3W8er8T7MecHR8IZM7EriDSPI8e9930Z6r2V4iLis7i6WQ&_hsmi=381070073&utm_content=381070073&utm_source=hs_email
Michael,
Thank you for fixing the link!!!
I resonate with the good Doctor of the church, from the Mere Orthodoxy piece. We’d all be the wiser to heed his counsel:
We do not seek vengeance upon our enemies on this earth …. We love our enemies and pray for them. Hence, we desire that, by making use of judges and laws that cause fear, they be corrected, not killed, so that they do not fall into the punishments of eternal condemnation. … Repress their sins, therefore, in such a way that those who repent having sinned may still exist.”_
If during Obama’s presidency, a similar high-visibility public assassination had occurred, in which Obama’s controversial pastor; Rev Jeremiah Wright, was the target …assuredly, the familiar ring declaring a status of posthumous ‘sainthood/martyrdom’ would be heard while conferred upon the victim …(for callous political gain)
(“Never let a good crisis go to waste”) Rahm Emanuel, Democratic strategist/adviser to the Obama administration)
However, as we now see …very divided ideological camps would reflexively emerge, expressing opposing sentiments over Wright’s particular brand of Liberation Theology, and whether his voice inspired hatred, or hope.
BTW: I see nothing praiseworthy regarding distorted scriptural views from the gaggle of NAR ‘apostles’, charismatic prosperity pimps/prophetesses advising Trump.
I abhor seeing political/influential public media figures who weaponize public discourse and ‘hide behind the first amendment’ …discharging wicked inflammatory rhetoric, tacitly INTENDED to radicalize impressionable sympathetic minds …and trigger unstable personalities to respond with acts of violence.
BOTH parties are equally guilty of employing distorted hateful exaggerations that dehumanize political opponents as ‘The Enemy, The Anti-Christ, Nazi, Tyrant or Fascist’.
“Nazi” or “racist” …They both represent time-proven slanderous gifts ‘that keep on giving’. You’d think that tactical usage of these mudslinging slurs would be totally played out by now (Mere sight of the words cause my eyes to glaze over, as I promptly dismiss credibility of the author)
Our preexisting biases short circuit potential for truly balanced discernment, and virtually blind us toward ‘our team’s’ moral failings …while a hypercritical state of arousal, quickly spotlights the opposing team’s’ (allegedly outrageous transgressions)
“Martyr” is exactly the word the pastor used at my church last Sunday, as I described in detail in a comment on the Sept 11 “Reflections post. I’m completely baffled why but I intend to ask him.
Charlie Kirk Was a martyr to the Idol that is Christian Nationalism with Trump as their Lord and Savior. To call him a martyr and thereby evoke people like Stephen, Polycarp, and others makes a mockery of all those who actually died for their faith. If Kirk held a political office, he would be a 21st century version of Huey Long. (Which Trump is also emulating). As it is, he is more like Malcolm X (Which was not called a martyr by most folks AFAIK).
In what way is he like Malcolm X?!?!?
Dr. Gupta is one of our finest New Testament scholars…and I agree with his assessment of this matter:
https://nijaykgupta.substack.com/p/if-you-are-elevating-charlie-kirk
A foremost scholar citing SNOPES? Repeatedly? Where do I go to surrender.
DEI Dread
The Snopes links have direct source citations in them…which I understand is irrelevant if you wish to dismiss all Dr. Gupta said.
Michael,
The article is misleading at best, it certainly is not scholarly – though he takes swipes at Kirk on that basis. I won’t let attempts to smear Kirk as a racist pass. It isn’t true. Inflammatory? Yes, he was, but so are you and me.
I acknowledge his MAGA brand – that’s enough to banish him here. That man was your brother in Christ and I don’t think you would have hated him. I sure don’t think you’d have found him like these fraud preachers.
And please SNOPES? It’s just a shell game that uses data.
From the earliest centuries, the Fathers taught that martyrdom is not defined by the manner of one’s death but by its cause. Origen was plain: “It is not the death that makes the martyr, but the cause for which one dies.” Cyprian of Carthage cautioned that even those who die while bearing Christ’s name, if they die apart from the confession of His faith or the unity of His Church, “are not crowned.” For them, the issue was never sentiment but witness. Martyrs were those who, like Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna, were killed precisely because they confessed Christ when commanded to deny Him.
By that measure, there is no evidence that Mr. Kirk’s death was the result of persecution for the sake of the Gospel. That he professed Christian belief is known; that he was targeted because of that confession is not. His death appears to have arisen from the world of politics and ideology, not from hostility to the faith itself.
We may rightly mourn his death as man. We may pray for his family and commend his soul to the mercy of God. Yet we do so without calling him a martyr. To apply that title here would be to empty it of its meaning and diminish the witness of those who, across the centuries, gave their lives solely because they would not cease to proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Alan,
This long simmering situation has and is creating incredible stress in my soul.
The MAGA ethos is incompatible with the teachings of Christ…I don’t know any other way to parse it.
Gupta was trying to say that with grace.
I don’t question the redemption of you or others here who support this…but I truly do not understand.
LiamtheCat wants me to retire…the cat’s smarter than I am…
Dread, a lot of his favorite art arguments are rooted in racism. He did that because he was trying to provoke.. that’s how he made his money. Now, maybe you could listen to all that he ever said and find some nuance, but he threw those bits out their own purpose. That’s what got the clicks..
Duane,
Thank you…well said.
Duane, You are right. Martyrs are those who are killed for their confession of Christ. I was not an admirer of Kirk, but I am an admirer of Dietrich Bonhoeffer; Bonhoeffer is often called a martyr by his admirers, but it is inaccurate to call him a martyr for the same reason it’s inaccurate in the case of Kirk: he was not killed for his confession of Christ.
Here’s the thing …if someone wants to insist that a person is a martyr, more power to them. But to insist that everyone hold the same view under the threat of condemnation or cancelling is beyond me. It seems that so many people think their opinions carry enormous gravity. I wish we would lighten up so we could actually have real dialogue. Rather than simply vomiting opinions everywhere, how about we practice love…grace…peace…repentance…forgiveness. These are the heart and soul of the Gospel. A little humility would go a long way.
Last month it was Cracker Barrel. What a waste of time and energy that kerfuffle was!
Pineapple Head,
The only people doing any canceling these days is the Trump government, and they are doing it full throttle.
This is the Age of Kerfuffle.
I was not familiar with Kirk, despite seeing a moderate amount of Christian and political stuff from the US. I was surprised that so many Australians were familiar with him. Most here who knew about him (of my Christian friends) saw more of his Christian spokesperson side than the political one so had a more positive view.
One spokesperson I heard praised his courage in debating hostile audiences, celebrating an environment where people and debate difficult topics freely. He quickly pointed out that Trump is shutting down voices he didn’t like.
RF, I’m referring to all the families that are being fractured and the friendships being blown out of the water. I’m talking about some businesses are declaring they won’t do business with people who don’t share their political. Tha,s happening all around me on all points of the spectrum.
RF,
We all tend to have a short memory when we approvingly support the political tactics ‘our team’ is using. However, as one should expect with a new administration, the pendulum has swung back towards the ‘right’.
Links to Kamala publicly defending what is often called ‘Facism, Dictatorial reign, Hitler 2.0, Tyranny, Nazism’.
Rationalizing (weaponizing) use of the Dept of Justice, Law enforcement, Homeland Security agencies to ‘investigate and police’ social media platforms to combat ‘misinformation & hate speech’ (opinions and viewpoints ‘your team’ doesn’t like)
https://x.com/WesternLensman/status/1968510497201795282
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1969046911760887852
Robert F,
You are so right, there is absolutely NO COMPARISON between Bonhoeffer and Kirk.
Bonhoeffer was the real McCoy, Kirk would fold in less than an hour under the Gestapo.
>>> Kirk would fold in less than an hour under the Gestapo.
You don’t know this. You don’t even know what you yourself would do.
I understand that you don’t appreciate Mr. Kirk but there’s no need to make up imaginary stories about him.
Watch the “funeral” on pay per view
https://thedispatch.com/next-250/abraham-lincoln-speech-charity/
As you may have learned from the Daniel Day Lewis movie Lincoln or elsewhere, Abraham Lincoln made it a point to put men in his cabinet who often disagreed with him and with each other, like a good leader should. Today’s president is the complete opposite, to the point of absurdity.
@ Xenia,
I’d probably fold in less than 10 minutes.
Michael,
I was genuinely moved by that inspiring, and timely article concerning President Lincoln (and the reader comments that followed, too).
I had no idea that Frederick Douglass had returned to face his former master …and that tearful forgiveness and reconciliation followed. That noble demonstration of unmerited favor to his former captor …is about as Christ-like as it gets.
Seeing the unusually sophisticated eloquence of Lincoln’s words, illuminates the lofty academic language arts standards of that era, and is a fitting backdrop serving to underscore Frederick
Douglass’s incredibly sharp intellect, that fueled his many impressive personal achievements and priceless civic contributions.
Lincoln seemed to have embodied Spirit-led wisdom and humility, to have successfully navigated two deeply embittered rival factions, through a minefield of countless pitfalls into what would become a historic reconciliation.
Dave,
Lincoln and Douglass are two of my favorite historical figures and I too was moved by both again…
This somehow reminds me of what Desmond Tutu and Mandela did in South Africa, with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
I’m pretty sure other countries have established similar endeavors.
Somehow also reminds me of Christ the Reconciler. He has reconciled us to God and hopefully to
one another. Some would say this was a major part of His plan and mission.
https://dal.ca.libguides.com/IHRL/TRC
Bonhoeffer was not a martyr by the historic definition Duane gave us. Happy to see that discussed but I never have thought he was.
I understand the desire to overcome merely political partisanship for the sake of civility; but even if you don’t believe we’ve reached that point yet, there must be a point at which the difference becomes one not of different political approaches to common problems, even when hotly disagreed, but of basic moral matters which go to the heart of what it means to be a humane society, or a follower of Christ. This is why Bonhoeffer insisted, during the time of the Nazi controlled German Christian movement, that there was “no salvation outside the Confessing Church.” You may not believe that we are at such a moment right now, and you may believe my use of an illustration from the Nazi era is absurd or sensationalistic, but I don’t see how you can in good faith believe it is impossible that such a point might be reached in our country. It already happened once in our Civil War; many of us believe we are at such point again in our present situation, a dividing line that words alone cannot erase.
I am very saddened by what I am reading here. Have you no compassion at all? I can’t see it.
Charlie Kirk was a rock solid Christian. I have listened to him for years and have only heard him educate with facts backed by scripture in truth and love.
I stand with Xenia, we serve the same God. God of Heaven and Earth, Creator of all things, mighty and strong, truthful and good, Savior, King or kings and Lord of lords. The same God Charlie served.
Charlie is a martyr for his faith in Jesus. He is an American hero for free speech. No one is elevating him to god position. The nation is grieving. And all you all can do is criticize and judge?
Why don’t you instead offer up prayers for Charlie’s family, his children, for the youth that are now giving their lives over to God in light of their interaction with Charlie. Have you seen all the testimonies of young people who have turned their lives around and are now followers of Jesus because of the compassion he showed them when he spoke truth to them? I have. There are thousands. trans – who de-transitioned, pro-abortion girls – now pro-life, sinners – now followers of Jesus…
Think of me what you will. I pray for you and love you. but know I am deeply saddened and heartbroken by your callousness for the death of a fellow believer and lack of sympathy for those of us who called him a brother in Christ.
I am also ashamed that none of you can muster up an ounce of joy that the Lord of our salvation has been lifted up, worshiped and praised and His salvation message has been proclaimed in front of the whole world dozens of times this day. That is worthy of much joy and celebration.
Dusty,
Good to see you.
I think we all have compassion for his widow and children.
Many of us have a different assessment of the things he said and did.
I wish every blessing on you and yours…hope you are all well.
I do love you Michael, my brother, you can trust that will never change.
I tried to not respond to this thread and the previous threads and comments surrounding this topic. But, my concern and love for all here would not allow me to be silent. I struggled to understand where you all were coming from. I believe your collective assessment of Mr. Kirk does not have a foundation in fact and fear it is all secondhand or partial spliced clips. I pray I am wrong. But what I read here was : he is not a christian, he serves a different god, he was bad, racist, … No one has to agree with what he said or did, but questioning his faith when he gave the gospel every compass he went to is not helpful. Charlie Kirk proclaimed Jesus Sod of God, crucified, dead, buried, resurrected on the 3rd day, that all who believe may be saved by the cleansing of Jesus blood.
It is enough that our world is divided by good and evil. We don’t need division between followers of Jesus.
I know you said you do not want to talk to people who hold a differing opinion of the border/deportation issues. My opinion on these are different than yours. As is my opinion of the life and now death of Charlie Kirk and what god he served.
Given your stance, I thought you should know where I stand.
respectfully, love your sister in Christ Jesus
Dusty,
It is good to see you. It is sad that you see what has become of this.
It has been many years since AMERICA has had a true spiritual leader. Ask people and they will struggle to find a candidate. I believe this young man would have matured into that figure.
I have some hope that as public figure with a clear witness to Jesus he may be the catalyst to many others shedding their inhibitions. The constitution does nothing to limit our free expression of faith as long as we do not ensconce it into law.
Thank you for sharing your conscience. Would love to see others who once posted regularly express themselves over Charlie.
AKA Dread
However Dusty,
It is absolutely essential that people be free to express their conscience and convictions. Don’t want anyone punished for expressing themselves. I am a free speech radical.
Dusty flies in like an angel from heaven.
It’s so good to see you, dear sister.
Dusty!!!!
Dusty!! So wonderful to see you here ❤️ 💖 I agree with you, you put perfectly what i have been feeling about Charlie but was hesitant to express it here. Thank you for your heart and conviction
No one should feel intimidated to speak freely here. Everyone should realize that what we say will be judged and responded to. When we censor our speech, we are losing the freedom to speak. DEI was a free speech apocalypse. What conservatives are doing in retaliation to others is as reprehensible. Let people damn Charlie to hell and leave them alone about it. Let them lie. Let them blaspheme God. Then speak truth as your conscience tells it.
By the same token. Michael can say whatever he wants. BTW, he can also banish those from his blog as he wishes. This is the space he is paying for. Rules of debate always start with turf. Whoever owns the mic or the space WINS.
I’ll let Benjamin Cremer speak for me.
“As a pastor, I oppose political violence. I believe Charlie Kirk should be alive today. I therefore mourn his death and the state of our country that caused it to happen. Erika Kirk’s display of forgiveness rather than retribution and her call to love rather than hate was the most profound and important moment of the service.
As a pastor, I also oppose the blatant display of Christian nationalism at his memorial service by those in political power. The Christ presented there by them was not the Jesus of the gospels, but the figure used to masquerade as Jesus for the sake of justifying the pursuit of power and wealth by any means possible.
I say by any means possible because as was shown today, not even someone’s death is treated as sacred by those in political power. It’s treated as yet another opportunity to justify pursuing power and dominion in the name of Jesus. It’s another opportunity to fuse supporting only one political party and only certain politicians with being a “true Christian.” It is another opportunity for the current president to justify hating his enemies rather than loving them as Jesus called us to. It’s another opportunity uphold domination rather than the gospel of Jesus.
It was treated as a rally, not a memorial service.
So, as a pastor, I mourn Charlie Kirk’s death with those who are mourning today. I also oppose the narrative that his legacy and death is being used to uphold the name of Jesus, especially by those in political power.
It isn’t. It’s upholding Christian Nationalism and Christian nationalism has nothing to do with Jesus.”
Alan,
The people speaking here in opposition to this article encompass the entire life span of this site.
Xenia was here before anyone else…before there was a site.
Dusty was at my side faithfully through the wildest years…unflinching and holding me up in prayer.
You have been a pillar here.
This is painful and sad beyond measure to me.
Still, I have always stood for what I believed the Scriptures and the Spirit spoke…I’m too old to change.
I have no plans to ban old friends, even if they think I’ve lost my way…and maybe my faith.
>>The Christ presented there by them was not the Jesus of the gospels, but the figure used to masquerade as Jesus for the sake of justifying the pursuit of power and wealth by any means possible.<<
That might be true of some but I have to say that Marco Rubio's explanation of the Gospel seemed pretty sincere to me.
I don't follow liberal social media but on my conservative sites I see imported clips of liberals saying really heinous things about Charlie, things that are not true. But I don't judge all liberals by these extreme examples. Likewise, some cringe-worthy things were said at the memorial – it lasted around nine hours- but I don't judge all conservatives by these people, either. And neither should you. 🙂
A lot of people are coming to the Lord thanks to that memorial service. I get it that this is not the type of conversion to Christianity that is pleasing to many here but I have faith that they are coming to Christ as the result of true repentance and faith in Christ and a desire to live a more meaningful life here on earth than the lifestyle today's culture is offering young men and women today. It is especially bleak for young men.
I wonder if followers of only liberal media realize how discouraged, defeated, and disheartened young men are these days. They are continually told humans are the bad guys, especially male humans, most especially white male humans. Everywhere they go they are told they are The Problem. DEI discriminates against them. No wonder they retreat to a miserable life of gaming and p0rnn. Christianity offers them not only salvation but a chance at a meaningful life here on earth.
We went to the Monterey Aquarium last week when it was free for county residents. Everywhere the signage was "Humans Bad." I agree that we humans need to do a better job caring for God's creation but what effect do you think this has on children? Do we see large numbers of young people trying to escape their humanness with trans and even worse behavior? "Humans bad, I will pretend I am a non-binary dog." People want to escape this culture of death and it is not surprising they are attracted to a courageous young man like Charlie Kirk. I am not aware of any other youthful role model that so effectively addressed this situation.
Most of the inquirers, catechumens and new baptized that are coming to our little parish are young men. They want Jesus and they want to live a meaningful life.
Xenia,
My main sources of information actually promote themselves as conservative outlets.
I do know how discouraged young men are these days…I live with one.
The main source of his discouragement is the fact that for most young people the old American dream of owning a home and affording a family is a pipe dream for them now…a fact that is ignored while we are distracted by the culture wars while the rich get richer.
I am 100% against killing of all kinds. Political violence is never the way. When this man dies, we all lost.
But he wasn’t at all what his fans are now making him out to be. I’d rather not discuss it to be honest, but it seems conservatives are going to force this to be the dividing line…you must take a side over this NOW…and I will never be on a side that continues to tie Christless rhetoric and actions to the person of Jesus himself.
Josh,
He was a remarkable human. He was a genuine believer. He was by all accounts remarkably integrous. He was a very good human. He was also a conservative activist. I like him more than I wanted to. Your bombastic claim is not received and all you have to do is be quiet if you really don’t want to discuss it.
But exercise free speech and damn him all you like. I heard him say he doesn’t care what people think of him. He’s beyond caring now.
What I like is all the people who are talking about the simplicity of Jesus. And somehow his life provoked it.
The worship of Jupiter is alive and well to this day.
Michael, I don’t think young men become Christians in the numbers we are seeing today because they can’t afford to buy a house although I agree that this adds to their feelings of hopelessness.
The idea that people can’t afford children is, in most cases, false.
The brand of Christianity presented by the nationalists does have appeal to young men.
It gives them defined enemies (liberals, immigrants, people of color, LBGTQ, uppity women)…and speaks in the glorious terms of warfare.
I don’t think it reflects the ways of Jesus.
If you can’t afford a home, you can’t afford kids…
Alan, my point exactly. Why do I have to damn him?
The simplicity of Jesus…as viewed through American right-wing politics. This IS the Jesus of White Christian Nationalism.
I sincerely hope Charlie is with Jesus now, and he sees how wrong he was about so many things that he talked so, so much about.
>>>If you can’t afford a home, you can’t afford kids…<<<
A lot of young people who say they can't afford kids (and I know plenty in real life)
– Eat out (fast food, usually) every day
– Have Uber Eats, etc. often
– Have many subscriptions to streaming services
– Often have the latest iPhone
etc.
As for me and my husband, we lived in substandard housing when we were young. Our first baby had exactly 3 little outfits, bought at the discount store. No stroller, no high chair. We were, and still are, a very happy family. As my husband was faithful to his job, he advanced and we could afford more things. The last kid actually had a stroller! So Americans, like humans in all places at all times, can raise a family with modest resources.
I have been aware of Charlie Kirk for several years. I have listened to numerous videos. I believe he was a believer, and I appreciate his testimony. That said, unless I have missed it, would someone please explain how they reconcile his call to follow Jesus with the many remarks concerning African Americans?
Additionally, I agree with Michael’s comments regarding Christian Nationalism. I find that in total opposition to the teaching of Jesus.
“He did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best for them,” the president, who was the final speaker, said of Kirk. “That’s where I disagreed with Charlie. I hate my opponent and I don’t want the best for them.”
Bob,
Good to see you…it’s old home week on the site.
It’s not just the comments about African Americans…it’s the comments about Jews, migrants, non traditional women …
This was the quote of the day :
“If we could just figure out how to bring the Holy Spirit into a Trump rally … we just did it!”
One of the TP staff
The quote Bob brought was my other notable quotable. It shows the true difference between the two friends. POTUS is a work.
I was however shocked that DT could be in a room where he was not the object of the praise. Didn’t think he could.
It’s not just the comments about African Americans…it’s the comments about Jews, migrants, non-traditional women …
True
Since my daughter is married to an African American, and I have three grandchildren who look more black than white, I’m a little more sensitive to his words along those lines.
Bob,
I don’t think Kirk was a racist at all. However, I can see how his words have been construed as such. He stood in public constantly and invited challenge. I am sure he addressed your exact concern many times. No person in America made themselves more available to be called on the carpet than he. He got killed for the public characterization of his words as being hateful and fascistic. Don’t think history will validate those claims. Don’t think his public record does either. But he has an Advocate so I won’t be that. It’s irrelevant he’s dead because at least one person bought it.
Just this one more thing Bob. We’ve spent our whole life watching incongruence in people around us. We’ve found plenty of it in ourselves. A forty year old Kirk would have looked at himself and wondered about more than a few things. Each decade brings a new iteration of ourself that looks back and shakes the head in lament.
I’m not crazy about all that he said but I cannot invalidate the man by the things I see and wish he’d see too.
We have to find a way to build a better world and do it together. He was motivated above most things to “save the country.” I actually get it. So do you on perhaps different terms.
I won’t fight you over this thing or your viewpoint. We can say our peace and move on.
Thank you, Alan.
I’m not the same man that I was even 10 years ago. I have said and done many things that I wish I could take back.
We will never know how much, if anything, he might choose to walk back on. It’s a shame that those who have immortalized him will never find out.
Lot’s to think about in this conversation. I’m still trying to investigate and formulate to some degree. thre are also othere things of greater concern in my own life right now.
My 2nd Masters is in Christianity and Classical Studies. I was a wonderful program taught by a very conservative and controversial professor. One statement he said once was; “In your 20’s, if you are not a liberal, you don’t have a heart. In your 40’s if you are not a conservative, you don’t have a brain.” While can pick that statement apart from many angles, I understand (which I will keep to myself) that vein of thinking. However, I would add that in your 60’s, if you are not a moderate and do not see the folly of either extreme, you might not have a brain or a heart—or at least you are not as well read as you think.
I might need a trip down the yellow brick road Pstrmike to get that solved.
Courage Dread
dread,
I’ll join you.
The fear of death
The fear of man including ostracism from family friends or other social groups
The fear of losing privilege and just plain old anxiousness driven FOMO
Are unsheltered, unhealed, unexamined and often unredeemed vulnerabilities that can be subtly but steadily exploited by the prince of the power of the air through the presence and arguments of the influential and powerful ; even among the most notable among us.
“ Notable”could read “noble”
Vic
What’s this post about. Why? Responding to anyone?
Xenia,
The same memorial service where these “Christians'” true lord and savior Trump and his minion Miller turned into a MAGA campaign rally and rants to not be Christian do the opposite of what Kirk supposedly believed as part of his faith? That memorial service or was it a Nuremberg meeting using the corpse of a young man for political power and gain? Meanwhile Kirk’s wife is either a useful and willing tool for Trump and MAGA’s little Bund movement or completely naive.
And people here wonder why I became an atheist and anti-theist and walked away from the crock of shit that is Christianity….
Ra’s,
I understand how so much false Christianity could drive a person to disbelief, bit just because there are several counterfeits, does that negate the possibility that a true Christianity exists? It seems a shame to give up on faith because fakes exist. I’m very likely being too simplistic, just responding to your comment.
Pstrmike: “However, I would add that in your 60’s, if you are not a moderate and do not see the folly of either extreme, you might not have a brain or a heart—or at least you are not as well read as you think.”
I’m 63 and that’s exactly where I’m at.
Michael, that quote by Ben Cremer pretty much sums up my thoughts on all of this.
Xenia do you post anywhere else?
I’d love to see if there is possibly theological and generously civil conversation.
Alan,
While I would never want anyone to not find places where they are comfortable…I’ve waited for a long time for someone to explain to me how MAGA is theologically compatible with the teachings of Christ.
If you post that somewhere…let me know.
Alan, no, this is the only place I post. I have FB and X but I just make inconsequential comments on those platforms. Sometimes I step away from here for a time.
100% he died because of his Christian faith. He walked his talk, and he was hated because of it.
Is he some sort of a little god we place on a pedestal because of it? No, but we should all take a lesson in counting the cost.