A Conversation
A Conversation
Duane: I know Michael that the two of us have had some struggles with health over the last year or more. For myself, it is made me reflect a bit more seriously on the issues of life and death. In a recent book that I was reading, the author, George Weigel, pointed out the phenomena of the body resisting death. He asserted that he believed this was a remnant of the primordial condition in the garden before sin and death. That is, we were created for life, and not merely life in the physical sense but life with God. This primordial condition was broken by sin, yet the body retains a sense of the original condition at creation. From my own pastoral experience, I know there have been times at which I have felt it right to say to a terminally ill parishioner, “It’s all right, you can let go now”. I’ve said it, however, with the assurance that life is not limited by our span of years, whether or not that span is long or short. What has been your experience?
Michael: I think that author has made a profound observation. Early on in my ministry I was taught (probably by a Puritan divine) that the primary job of the pastor was to prepare his flock to die well. I took that to heart and one of the main ways I judge how well I’ve lived out my vocation is by how well my people have gone on to meet Jesus. Did they go with fear of what lies ahead or did they depart in peace and even anticipation? Before my surgery I had consciously prepared to die…to the degree that when I didn’t, it actually caused me some confusion about what to do now. I had no fear of death itself…my fears were all about the loved ones I’d leave behind. I counted it a severe mercy when my feline companion died before my surgery… My human family had not given me permission to go…which meant I still had some things left to teach them….and to learn.
Duane: As you know, when I received the results of some tests, I made sure that my will was up to date and went over my funeral plans. In the end, the surgery and the treatment were less dramatic than imagined. It did, however, provide a season in which I contemplated my mortality. That was a gift. As one grows older different patterns of life emerge. Most of us, especially in leadership positions, spend our lives in acquisition. That is, we acquire things, relationships and knowledge. This is true whether we are rich or poor. Yet, there is a transition to be made in which, rather than acquiring, we need to spend what remains of our lives giving. My Buddhist friends would say that this is a transition in which one becomes a sage rather than a prince. Finding your place when you’re older is not easy. One has to reassess what is important given the time that is left to you. I think the prospect of one’s own mortality helps in the process. By the way, going through this process during the time of a worldwide pandemic made coming out on the other side even more revelatory! I don’t know about you, but for myself I have become convinced that our Roman Catholic brethren are correct when they speak of a “good death”.
Michael: My concern these days is around the role that the church and clergy play in guiding people towards a “good death”. It seems to me that it requires both a long term personal relationship with your priest or pastor and a known place within a local body. A good death is the result of good discipling …
Duane: It is interesting that you say that. In my recent readings, I came across a list of Corporal Works of Mercy from the Middle Ages. It was basically a list of physical activities that give grace to both the giver and the recipient. The list included the following:
1. To feed the hungry.
2. To give drink to the thirsty.
3. To clothe the naked.
4. To visit the imprisoned.
5. To shelter the homeless.
6. To visit the sick.
7. To bury the dead.
You note that the last one was “to bury the dead”. What was meant by this, however, was more than the mere laying to rest of the mortal remains of someone who had died. It was being present for another person at the end of their life. Moreover, after death it was incumbent to show honor to the person who had died. When I think of how death has been treated during the pandemic, it makes me ashamed. All too often, we set death aside. The rest of the list, might give us pause as well.
Michael: I think Jesus wrote the same list…a life lived in Christian community will include all those acts of grace and end in the last. I notice as well what isn’t on that list…make your own application…
Michael,
I picked out the artwork because in Christian conversation there is always a third…
I love the artwork…and I hope He stays for the conversations here…
Well said, gentlemen. My wife and I have begun writing a series of Bible studies and one we need to do (but will be difficult to write for personal reasons) is on honoring our elderly, which includes this very vital topic of death.
Thank you for expressing it so well.
Thank you, EricL…it’s tough, but necessary…
This is very valuable. Thanks to you folks for contributing this.
Thank you, bob1…
This is an important conversation so thank you for posting this. I play a small harp and over the years have played at bedside in hospice situations. Most of the time, I played for those who were “actively dying”…those in the last 24-48 hours of life. People have asked me how I can participate in such a difficult situation. The truth is…I am deeply humbled to be in the presence of those taking their last earthly breaths, and with the loved ones that surround them. My hope is that the music envelopes them in warmth and helps them to focus on the things that are most important…and more often than not, it is an intimate time and space that I can only describe with the word, “holy.”
His Kid,
Good to see you again.
What a wonderful ministry you have…and what a gift you give to those moving on and their loved ones.
It is holy, indeed…
I am scared you know whatless of death.
The usual nostrums from the ‘Christian’ panoply of ‘answers’ no longer works for me.
Rather than dwell on the inevitable (death), I find it comforting to do the best with what I’ve got in the here and now.
In these later years of my life, I find the Jewish view of death more practical and down to Earth than the fundagelical obsession with ‘heaven’, a place that is always something ‘other’ with little or no connection to this here and now.
Muff,
I hear you.
“Heaven” sounds like a quiet hell to me…heaven and earth becoming one place with all my loved ones (mostly cats) resurrected and living here as we were created to live excites me.
His Kid, What an awe-inspiring thing you’re doing. Words are inadequate. It’s much, much more than a thing…
Richard John Neuhaus, As I Lay Dying: Meditations Upon Returning as I am sure you are familiar, written when the great man ‘almost’ died is a similar discussion.
He’s gone now, and I thank God for his writings.
Good conversation, thanks for posting
I’m not sure what entering into the full life of the Trinity will mean, but I’ve come to the conclusion that this is the end that the Church Fathers, over and over again, wrote about and anticipated. It is beyond time, it is beyond place, it is beyond description. I do know, however, that facing the end of all things should motivate us to works of mercy in the here and now…
Good conversation. Thought provoking
I don’t know what the experience after death will be. For the present, after 35-40 years of ministry, I’ve kinda stepped away from it all. As I’ve posted here before, I am at a place of rediscovery in my Christian walk. With out the pressure and expectation of performing and thinking as a pastor, I feel some freedom to explore, and challenge my beliefs to see what is real
While Duane’s list of 7 is noble and altruistic, at nearly 71 years of age, I’ve become more centered on doing things that I’ve wanted to do and bring me some sense of fulfillment.
My health is not good. I’ve survived cancer, two hip replacements, I’m in stage 3 kidney failure, need surgery on my back, have Afib, need a knee replacement, and, and, and.
I wake up each day with a positive attitude but for the first time in my life, since I live in constant pain, while not looking forward to it, the thought of death is beginning to sound like a welcomed relief.
Until then my focus is doing music and, as I understand it, being Christ to people—in some small way—rather than preaching or talking about Him.
As a young believer I was blessed to know a number of senior believers. In many ways they did some parenting that my own parents were unable to do. Of course, they started dying as I hit my 30s, which was very upsetting at first. But they were ready and wanting to go to heaven. Now that I just turned 65, I am hoping that my own life can have an influence as a life well-lived and ready to meet Jesus on the many young people I come into contact with.
OfficerHoppy
We are not the collection of our conditions… Something else I’ve learned.
Thanks Michael, it’s good to know that I’m not alone with dissent from fundagelical ideology.
I hold fast to the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed as non-negotiable parameters up front and on the table.
The rest of the stuff?
I pick, choose, and un-choose according to the dictates of my conscience.
Thank you for posting this. Quite thought provoking and not discussed openly enough. Somehow, though, by the end of the article I was wishing for the conversation to have continued longer.
Duane,
Thanks for that reply to OfficerHoppy. That’s a wonderful revelation
I appreciate this conversation and discussion….been thinking a lot about death recently, as tomorrow is the funeral of my last living parent.
Sarah,
Our condolences to you as we pray for your comfort and peace….that’s a tough one…
Sarah,
Remembered you this morning in prayer in the Daily Office…