Another Explosive Blight
A woman is being disciplined by her church (the 11th largest in the country) for exposing her former husband as an alleged pedophile and consumer of child pornography.
“It would be hard to believe that the events of the past five months had happened had I not experienced them myself. The discovery of Jordan’s pedophilia and use of child pornography was an indescribable shock and triggered a thorough upheaval of every aspect of my life. While I have been upheld by the grace of God every step of the way, I have wondered many times whether it is possible to fully recover from something like what has happened to me. And during these months, what has become even more troubling than the issues that have come to light in Jordan’s life has been the consistent refusal of the pastors and elders of The Village Church to respond in a way that takes into account the seriousness of the situation at hand.”
We will wait and see what Matt Chandlers response is to this incredibly well documented and well written expose…
Oh boy
This stuff is LONG … can you give a point by point summary that is a little more than the post or can you edit one into the post?
Really important story.
Very very disturbing…
BD,
In fairness, this has to be read to be believed.
This woman provides complete documentation.
The basis is this.
She and her husband were missionaries overseas when she discovered her husband using child pornography.
Concerned not only about the betrayal in her marriage but the safety of children she reported the offenses.
The Village Church has sought to protect the perp, stop her from getting divorced, stop any publicity of possible dangers, refused to let her resign from membership, and placed her under church discipline.
The alleged perp is not under church discipline.
I’ve never seen anything like this and to see it documented is chilling.
Michael,
I was making my way through this… and YES … this stuff is horrible.
No winners there so far.
The amount of Christian-ese and church-imposed law that is used to cover one person’s crimes is disgusting. Karen Hinckley is phenomenally brave for standing her ground in the face of a complete church failure.
No wonder we need a Savior.
apparently, the potential damage to peripheral personnel in the church is more pressing than revealing real damage done to children. Cowardly and inexcusable.
Seems to me,
All the church needs to do is admit that a crime, not just a sin, has been committed and they need to let the authorities release them from the mess they are in.
What am I missing? Why is the church acting this way? Do all divorces come under such scrutiny or is it because of her position?
I would advocate for the man to get help and even to be loved by the body of Christ but discipline is in view for no other reason than to remove him from his missionary appointment. He is by definition under discipline by virtue of that.
one would think that these churches could at least be as proactive as our public schools are… get the accused perp out of the pulpit and out of the building… we look at the proliferation of the openly sex-deviated and debate whether it is wrong to say it’s **wrong** – it’s kind of like looking at the face of a child with chicken pox and saying all those spots are just terrible, completely ignoring the plague …
what really troubles me the most is that our society is permeated with in your face sex and violence… we dismiss it by saying, “oh, it’s always been like this; we just hid it.” no it wasn’t always like this … we the Church – or at least, those who claim such, have got to face up to the fact that these aren’t the good old days and it’s not the anomaly anymore
now i’ll ignore this thread and all the emotional comments these threads generate – having vented my own
these ‘ministers’ are mandatory reporters and apparently have not fulfilled their duty. This is not a crime that gets dealt with in-house.
BD,
This is the fruit of the “membership covenant”…
Michael,
Such is among the reasons that we eschew such covenants. No policing the faithful with adjudications of their sins/crimes
what happens when the church violates its end of the ‘membership covenant’ bargain?
“what happens when the church violates its end of the ‘membership covenant’ bargain?”
They discipline someone …other than themselves.
Someone has to be disciplined, damn it…
the reason I asked that is a covenant, by definition, is an agreement between two parties that spells out the duties and obligations of both. Seems like a lop-sided agreement to me…or one that is grossly self-serving.
a repentant child-porn/abuser would want to cooperate with authorities to ‘expose the deeds of darkness…’ one would think
TVC – another church w/leadership proving that if there is a Holy Spirit, he has left the building.
Tell me again, how Jesus loves the little children of the world…..
Having looked through all the emails in that link and so forth, obviously we all know and agree that what her husband did was terrible and wrong. And Karen’s response, whether right or wrong, is understandable. I don’t fault the church for wanting to help both of them – he needs healing and so does she from the effects of his sin. Honestly, it would have been easy to just throw him under the bus completely. But at the same time, one has to wonder whether they really are taking this fully seriously. As BD noted, they shouldn’t have said he wasn’t under discipline – by the very nature of the fact that they removed him from missions and children and also apparently require him to check in with staff and be accompanied to attend service sounds like at least some form of discipline to me, so I don’t know why they would say he wasn’t under discipline – it makes you wonder. But my real concern with this isn’t as much the church’s actions towards him, but Karen. You know, the church may be right that she moved awful quick in her actions (i.e. getting annulment) and I’m not sure their counsel towards her to slow down was entirely unwarranted. However, it is entirely understandable why if that was the course she is taking (or even if it wasn’t, honestly) and if he is going to remain at the church, why she would want to separate from that church. Her letter expressing her heart on that was clear and I didn’t sense any real malice in it from her – she even stated point blank that she recognized that both of them needed healing, but that she didn’t feel it was best for anyone for them both to be cared by the same Body. And that to me makes perfect sense (at least emotionally – I can understand why she would feel that way). The church’s subsequent action where they put HER under discipline is where it seems they went completely off the rails IMO. I’m going to assume that they probably meant well – wanting to see a full healing and restoration across-the-board – but all it ends up looking like is that they are blaming the victim. However, as Michael noted, this can be an issue with the membership covenant thing. Because, yes, when you look at the portion of their covenant, it does basically seem that she agreed to seek reconciliation and submission to the elders before making hasty changes (i.e. annulling her marriage). And she seemingly didn’t do that. But for them to go after her, especially given the way they dealt with her husband, just leaves a bad taste. Basically this story is just one big tragedy from start to finish. And if anything, as Michael mentioned, it highlights the concern with a membership covenant.
Child p0rn is illegal; she needs to call the cops.
She needs to divorce him ASAP for the sake of any children.
(Maybe she did, I didn’t read the article.)
If the man is a pedophile he needs to be locked up.
She needs to keep her own kids out of his reach, if they have kids.
Who cares what that stupid “church” thinks about any of this. Just leave.
Wow.. Just……… wow.
People are so dumb. I knew a lady with 2 cute kids and there was this creepy single guy who always wanted to babysit girls at his house, always wanted to sit girls on his lap, was always volunteering to work in the Children’s ministry, was always carrying girls around on his shoulders, had paintings of young girls in his house and generally exuded an aura of extreme creepiness which a few of us picked up on immediately. We warned the mothers; they didn’t believe us, thought we were being mean to their dear friend who was so kind to babysit for them, especially single moms. I warned the pastor; he thanked me but told me to be careful not to besmirch his character. After warning that pastor, the guy was still at church holding little girls on his lap. A few confronted him; he always had a slick answer. I wrote him a letter telling him what I suspected were his proclivities; he responded with a very slick letter telling me that I was the sick-o.
I have no idea how that all turned out because I left that church many years ago. I never caught him doing anything that I could call the cops over or but I would have for sure. I had my eye on him though and warned everyone he came in contact with.
Many people are blind to this. I don’t know if they are naive or just don’t want to believe it.
And then there was: http://www.tmz.com/2015/05/21/josh-duggar-admits-molestation-statement-resigns-confessed-sex-scandal-wife/
I hope that some of the more sane around here realize that none of these bad acts make any kind of statement against the Christian faith. They speak only to bad acts of the individual Christians.
The beauty school nearby had an event today where all $ for haircuts will be donated to the Center for Missing & Exploited Children. Came home from my cut to read this. If you discover child p#rn on a computer, please call law enforcement. Sometimes important info is found that can rescue a child!! Not only might a child be saved, but a family may find a missing loved one. Shame on TVC for having the most screwed up priorities ever!!!!
I was having a good day too. Now, not so much.
This doesn’t surprise me. When church expectations drive outward behavior and don’t address the heart of sin, this is what happens. How many times have those in church leadership covered up sin (perhaps they practice the same things?) and punish the whistle blower? And these folks in leadership think they represent the heart of God? They have a rude awakening coming.
I hope the wife is well, like I said on the other board, I am sorry this happened to her and I hope she is safe. All the other stuff I was going to rant on and on about would not be helpful.
I have a dozen thoughts about this, yet I’m struggling to put any of them into words. But they are sacrificing a person on the altar of their structure, and dispensing mercy as a wage only to those who meet obligations first. For if they are so damned pontifical on enforcing her “covenantal” membership, then they can be equally pontifical in releasing her from it in a spirit of gentleness. Then maybe they would have earned street-credibility to “love her” and pray with her once there were no strings attached.
Seventeen years ago I was a part of CC Albuquerque, and saw and experienced how a structure comes before people. But a couple of years ago I spent a year in a very small church in which I again saw and experienced how a structure comes before people. It need not be a mega-church.
Please tell me I’m not the only one who’s shaking his head in utter disbelief.
Larry,
The dark side of Christiandom that churches sweep under the carpet would creep you out if you knew the half of it.
Respected big shots have some hidden things that they have crushed others over if they were to reveal them publicly.
I have heard stories from sisters that would topple some well respected men if they ever got out.
Alex had an interesting post that shows what can happen when the sheep of the church don’t pay attention to their shepherd …
http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/calvary-chapel-pastor-james-flanders-arrested-for-murder-of-his-mistress-who-gave-birth-to-his-child/
Xenia is right, she is the voice of reason as usual.
Just a thought before bed,
The leaders of the Village Church are way too savvy for this to be the whole story. No doubt they are stepping on their own feet with the church discipline stuff … but they are not straight up dumb enough for the information provided here to be the whole thing.
If the dude is a child p0rn guy then the authorities are in the mix on some level.
I still support the lady in her freedom to walk anytime she wishes but something else is bound to be going on here… We have one side of this stuff … and yes there is plenty to debate and eschew in these bits but there is surely more …
Simple solution for that church and pastor: Sue the victims for defamation…then whatever non-denomination or denomination that backs them can simply say “well we don’t know who’s telling the truth” and biz goes on.
NO ONE circles the wagons like the Buffalo Bills….err, I mean cult-like evangelical church sects like Calvary Chapel and whatever this flavor of “church” is in the article….
You know, there comes a point where I’m almost glad to see the Secularists and Liberals and Gay Agenda etc have their way with the so-called “church”.
If “God” is real…he’ll judge ‘Merica not b/c of the outsiders and “evil gays!” but b/c of cult-like corrupt (morally and literally) churches like Calvary Chapel and this Village sect.
Wow, didn’t know that about Josh Duggar.
Hey, at least the dude manned-up and copped to his sin unlike certain pastors and also the dude in the article of this thread.
I see glimpses of “Jesus” these days…but rarely from the so-called “church” and Church Inc.
Here is another recent example from some Agnostic friends of mine:
“Some of you may remember last November when I was crushed by a jury decision that was going to send a foster kid to prison, instead of college, based on judicial representation and a guilty verdict based on association. Everything was against him based on blind speculation and stereotype. Well, the judge, who took heat from the DA and the press, saw through the situation. And along with the probation departments recommendations, sentenced Damarrea to 4 years probation., instead of the three years prison he was facing. Everyone involved with this kid knew the crime wasn’t his nature. When he was in jail awaiting trial, his jailers would tell me, “he doesn’t belong here.” But several in the community insisted on vengeance and “justice.” The second charged in this event has yet to go to trial. That happens this summer. And with the verdict will come society’s due. This past February Damarrea was released from custody and moved in with me. He worked his butt off in school, where he had additional support systems, like Niels Burgess, and he graduated five weeks early. Guys like my brother Mike Jeffus took the time to get to know D, as they would walk shelter dogs early mornings before Damarrea went to school. Today, we went down to Huntington Beach, where a good man, and coach, will take him as part of the Golden West College football team. He is traveling with another friend from Visalia who was interested in coming along for the ride as well–he signed on as a quarterback at the college, who is excited to have him. They were No. 3 in So Cal last season. June 8th they will move in together. And in four years, after college graduation, we will move to expunge his felony–and it will be granted–and Damarrea will become the new American Dream.
This picture is from his first trip of his life to the beach today, with his friend and teammate Adam.”
No money for this, no fame, no “Ministry!” to build, no Brand to cultivate, no guilting folks into giving their hard-earned money “for Jesus!” and no fake just-enough “good works” to show your professional “Ministry” is somehow doing the work of “Jesus”…just enough so you can make a great Career of it and live a very good standard of living or even get rich and famous from it.
Again, if “God” is real…he’ll judge ‘Merica alright…but it won’t be b/c of the “evil gays!” and outsiders like these Agnostics…it’s be b/c of YOU so-called Christians and so-called “church”…and may his Judgment cut deep and burn bright.
Agreed with Xenia @ 19.
If there has been a crime committed, it needs to be reported to the authorities. They need to investigate if this guy has committed any additional crimes than what he has admitted.
The church needs to step up and protect the kids that may have been in contact with this guy, including offering counseling for families impacted. They also need to let Karen leave and let her know that she has their support if she needs it. They also need to fess up and say that they were wrong and that they are reviewing their membership policies and state that people can join or leave their church at will.
And pastor needs to stop texting the victim…..
Alex,
Can you explain this? “If “God” is real…he’ll judge ‘Merica not b/c of the outsiders and “evil gays!” but b/c of cult-like corrupt (morally and literally) churches like Calvary Chapel and this Village sect.”
Are you saying as Americans, your wife and kids, or my wife and kids will be judged because of something that is happening in a church in Texas?
Have you really thought this out?
MLD, it’s a social commentary on the “GOD IS GOING TO JUDGE ‘MERICA B/C GAYS!!!!” Crowd.
It rains on the just and unjust. The places in the world with the highest Quality of Life and the place with the lowest rate of natural disaster….are pretty Agnostic in the former and Atheist in the latter.
I think it’s a bunch of b.s. that “God” would specifically judge ‘Merica and not others…but playing devils advocate…if “God” were to actually specifically judge ‘Merica…it wouldn’t be b/c of what the “outsiders” and sinners are doing…it would be b/c of the corruption and abuse and lying and getting rich and famous from selling the Gospel and Jesus that the so-called “church” is doing…
Evangelicals (and Lutherans for that matter) are some of the blindest most self-focused Group in humanity…from the doctrine that doesn’t acknowledge there were other verifiable Languages and Cultures on the planet that predated the Hebrews…to the fact that the “Bible Belt” is the “most judged” geography on the planet in terms of Natural Disaster…while Estonia (atheist) is the most calm place on the planet in terms of Natural Disaster….and the Agnostic and Liberal Christian european nations are the highest Quality of Life and “happiest” places on the planet.
Xenia’s 19 is spot on!
And yes, the pastor needs to stop harassing the ex wife and let the woman pick up the pieces of her life and move on.
Yea, I think it’s a little premature to call this an “explosive blight.” Although it is well documented, it doesn’t show what is going on behind the scenes. I see nothing wrong with the membership covenant items she had agreed to that the pastor reminded her of.
We don’t know yet what “church discipline” means in this context. It could be their attempt to help her if she is not seeking godly council and making rash decisions in the midst of her pain.
It is clear from the pastor’s texts that they (at least) he isn’t viewing her as the problem and is trying to restore relationship.
I believe most of the time these cases the leadership is in the wrong and the sheep are being victimized and stepped on. I’ve been one of them in the past and have seen it done to those close to me, so I am sensitive to it. But I don’t think we should automatically assume that isn’t an exception.
Alex,
“from the doctrine that doesn’t acknowledge there were other verifiable Languages and Cultures on the planet that predated the Hebrews…”
Did you make this up? The Tower of Babel story tells of different languages and cultures before the Hebrews
You cannot keep throwing up strawman arguments.
How many of you “Pastors” would stop your “Ministry” merry-go-rounds and help a troubled kid like Dammarea that my Agnostic friends really helped above? How many of you would do it for no money, no kudos…but just to help a human being in need of some good leadership?
Michael is about the only one I know who would do something like that. That is telling of the rest of you posers.
You only do “ministry” if it benefits your Brand and your personal-support mechanism which is your church franchise. As soon as whatever project you decided to help became difficult or didn’t fit your program you’d cut and run in the name of “ministry” to keep the show going and keep the money and support flowing. That’s how your “ministry” works in real truth and in real life…seen it a zillion times.
Very very very very few of you would do anything near what those Agnostics do on a regular basis…to your shame. You teach real sermons all the time…and they speak loudly of your True Belief….
Most of what you pastors and followers prattle on and on about means nothing, it’s a waste of time.
When push comes to shove…the truth of your real “ministry” is fake and selfish and plastic fruit. That is the “church” today in large measure…not all, but the vast majority.
Wow! you must be exhausted after having traveled the country visiting and evaluating the vast majority of churches. I applaude your pompous attitude.
Alex,
Your friends helping Damarrea, so wonderful, so, what’s that word that God uses when He looks at creation?
Oh yeah, “good”. =)
I’m heartened to have read it.
Thanks Alex
i remember a story that i heard years ago about a dedicated Christian who worked among the down and outers (one of those people Alex says don’t exist), he was trying to help an habitual drunk – time after time picking him up “out of the gutter,” cleaning him up, getting him on his feet telling the drunk, “God loves you.” No change and these efforts got tiresome to the point where, as he was again removing the filthy clothes and cleaning the guy up, he told him again, “God loves you, but God help me, I do not.”
#44, #40,#36, etc. i’m tired of Alex’s blanket condemnation of the Church – always with a caveat-so-called… he hasn’t got a clue about what sacrificial labors the institutional churches do outside his own narrow, traumatic yes, but narrow experience…
Alex, yes, God loves you and folks here proclaim their love for you, but right now, God help me, i do not
Membership covenant or not, any wife, Christian or not, should end her marriage ASAP in one way or another, if she were to discover child porn on her husband’s computer, only after notifying the police. And, please don’t go the “mercy and forgiveness” route with these monsters. I would counsel a wife to let God show mercy as He pleases, but for her sake and the protection of her children, send this guy up the river. We can’t forget what Jeses said about those who harm the “little ones”. Personally, I don’t think child molesters and those who delight in child porn can be rehabilitated. If they can, let it happen behind bars, far from society. They are as close to being “reprobate” as any other sort of people.
Alex, I don’t think you have a lot of experience with churches. You have attended a few CC’s and maybe a few other churches but I don’t think you have much experience with liturgical churches or very small neighborhood churches. I suspect most of what you think you know about churches comes from your online reading. I think I can say this with some degree of confidence because I have attended many churches all over the country and have only caught a few fleeting glimpses of the abuse and plasticity that you claim pervades most churches.
So a warning, to you Alex and to anyone else here who gets most of their Christian news from the Internet: It is mostly a delusion. If you think you know something about churches in America based on the Internet, you don’t know very much at all. What do you know about the nine Baptist churches in my town? About the RC and EO parishes? About the small Methodist and Episcopal churches here? About the ethnic Hispanic and Tongan churches? You know nothing.
* You don’t know about the care given to a woman in our parish who is succumbing to dementia, how she is driven to appointments and helped financially.
* You don’t know how our deacon’s family allowed a hoarder woman from our parish to live with them (and she is difficult) for weeks after the death of her husband.
* You don’t know how food is taken every Sunday to an elderly woman who is now deaf.
* You weren’t there yesterday when Fr. G. came out after Liturgy (yesterday was Ascension) to bless my new (used) car and to pray for me, a very shaky driver.
*You never saw people giving the crazy man a ride home from church every week.
* You don’t know of the parishioner whose spare room is always available for travelers.
* You didn’t observe the parishioner who drives the homeless woman to her chemo appointments.
Etc.
All you see are the scandalous headlines and you are not savvy enough, Alex, to separate the wheat from the chaff.
God loves you Alex, and so do I. 🙂
Its I hate all believers Friday…….I guess.
well said, Xenia
Xenia points out a deep reality that has to be embraced, that the non-evangelical churches, the “mainline” ones which are more about the liturgy, almost nothing about the personality in the pulpit, are far more effective in mercy & benevolence, all grassroot, all because the “paritioners” are truly the “body of Christ” being His hands, His arms, His feet motivated by the simple impact of love received, love multiplied.
And, yes, whenever any of us wants to hear the worst about any group, all one has to do is look at what bubbles up from the swirling puddle of poo that is “media”
I don’t understand how the church can discipline her over her “marriage”. The membership agreement she signed said, “I will seek to preserve the gift of marriage and agree to walk through the steps of marriage reconciliation at The Village Church before pursuing divorce from my spouse.”
But she didn’t seek a divorce. She sought an annulment–an annulment that was granted. So the church is basically disciplining her for leaving a marriage that never occurred. It never existed, so there was nothing to preserve. I don’t understand how church discipline in this case is acceptable or allowable under the membership contract.
Additionally, they quoted other parts of the bylaws at her as reasons why they would not accept her withdrawal. As a member she agreed “to submit to the elders and other appointed leaders of the church and diligently strive for peace and unity within the church”. And she also agreed “to do the following should I leave the church for righteous reasons–to notify the appropriate staff member on the campus I attend; to seek another church with with which I can carry out my biblical responsibilities as a believe [sic]”.
I looks like she did all of those things. As she said in her resignation letter, she recognized that she and Jordan both needed to heal and for his sake (not simply her own) she was going to leave the church so that they could both seek recovery separate from each other–which was the healthiest option. Her very act of leaving The Village Church was a way of diligently striving to seek peace and unity within with church. And she seems like she was submitting to the elders; she was trying to follow the rules and maintain peace.
Honestly, the bylaws seem to broadly and unclearly written than I can’t imagine they would hold any sort of legal weight. Define what it means to “submit” to an elder. Define what it means to “diligently seek”. Explain in what circumstances those things must occur. It just seems like a load of badly written bullcrap. I can’t imagine The Village Church actually consulted with a lawyer regarding their membership agreement or had a lawyer draw it up because the end product seems very unlegally binding.
Gotta love Mike Hucksterby’s response.
“Good people make mistakes.”
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
The modern evangelical church idolizes marriage, placing the preservation of a marriage over the safety and sanity of the persons involved. There is the legal aspect of marriage = doing business as xyz, then there is the spiritual union, apparently planned by God, a so called type of Christ and His Bride, blah blah blah….
When a partner in the business, contract or covenant of ‘marriage’ “doing business as…. “violates the ‘contract’ or covenant, the offended partner is free. They are free to divorce, free to move on or free to stay in the defiled relationship. Frankly, in the Old Testament, the offender would be DEAD from being stoned to death, thus completely freeing the offended spouse.
The church today has made an IDOL of ‘saving’ a defiled marriage ‘because God in Christ has forgiven us, thus we should forgive”. I get it…. but forgiving doesn’t necessarily include continuing in relationship. Some people are evil and will never repent. Some wounds are so massive that the relationship will always be dysfunctional. Divorce is not the unpardonable sin. That verse in Malachi is taken completely out of context and used like a battering ram.
The pattern of a church standing with the offending male and either abandoning or shunning or chastizing the offended spouse is long standing and very common. It’s completely SICK. The only consolation out there is knowing that you are not the only one this has happened to.
“The modern evangelical church idolizes marriage, placing the preservation of a marriage over the safety and sanity of the persons involved. ”
Not in Calvary Chapel…cough cough Don Stewart cough cough.
X, wrong, I’ve attended and participated in quite a few Sects…and observed the other Sects in each community I’ve lived in etc.
Calvary Chapel is my primary experience…and very “plasticky”.
Grace Baptist (John MacArthur)…very pious and strictly follow the rules…and some real ministry…but largely like going to seminary within a narrow doctrinal/theological box and largely more about conforming to a “correct doctrine” and then earning your Lordship salvation through personal holiness…but not a lot of real help to people.
Missionary Alliance…good church, they actually help folks in real ways…much more humble and practical than the other two Sects described above.
The non-denom Church of Christ we are members at now…kind of an in-between…has some similar things to CC in terms of putting on a good show…but has much more accountability and financial transparency…and like the Missionary Alliance folks…they really do help people in a tangible way…but have a bit of the Johnny Mac swagger…but not the smugness of the Calvary Chapels.
Of all the Calvary Chapels…I’d say Bob Caldwell’s in Boise is about the best example…Bob Grenier’s one of the worst.
I have observed the Mormon Church/LDS in our community for nearly a decade now…they are much better than the vast majority of Evangelical church sects I’ve observed.
I observed Assemblies of God, Charismatic church sects similar to Dread’s, many of the Seeker Friendlies and Rick Warren wannabe churches, and quite a few different flavors of Baptists.
The worst are by far the more Entertainment-based sects…the best are those that tend to be more boring and less about the Pastor and the show/music and the building.
The Megas are the Least…and the Least are the Megas…ironically.
I’ve observed the Catholics for years…many RCC friends…in both communities I have lived in the longest. Meh. Better than the Mega-evangelical churches but not as dedicated and helpful in the communities I’ve lived in as the Mormons/LDS.
In the areas I’ve lived…the Eastern Orthodox are non-existent…and not in necessarily a good way. I know they are there…but they seem to hole up their own bubble as I never see or hear much of anything about them…kind of like the JW’s…except the JW’s will knock on the door once in awhile.
Paige #57, i think your point is well taken… it occurs to me that, if we believe marriage is a model of Christ and the Church, wouldn’t it then follow that a twisted, toxic marriage is an insult to God? Of course, i’m not talking about rough patches and everyday give and take 🙄
X, I know you are more intelligent than that….if you think I’m observant in what I read…I’m 100x’s more observant within the Communities I live in….and those Communities and Areas are very churched…with tons of churchy church folks from different flavors in the Tent…and I am very involved in whatever Community I live in being a business owner and being involved in local politics etc.
I see what goes on, I ask questions, I interact, I observe the true doctrines of real life…and I have a broad sample of experience and representatives to draw on. It’s not the rosy picture you paint, unfortunately…though there is “good” done…it is certainly no better than the Mormons/LDS (and probably not as good) and many Agnostics do as much or better without the quid pro quo and smug attitude of self-righteousness and without it having to be someone connected to the particular Sect and without having to be in agreement with the particular Sect.
Your EO church helps its own folks…which is why I probably have never seen any EO’s in Community efforts in my 40+ years of observing and participating in Communities.
The evangelical sects similar to Calvary Chapel idolize a very patriarchal-dominated marriage…much different than an equal and equitable marriage.
If the wife doesn’t get in line…well “let the unbeliever depart!” and then the male can simply get another younger CCool-aid drinking woman to take the old wife’s place and the new one will tow the CC line and get with the program.
That’s much different than those Sects idolizing a good marriage. They just want the wife to get in line and be a submissive like the good Stepford CC wives I’ve observed many times over.
Again, I never said “the church” doesn’t do anything good…it certainly does in many cases. It also spends most of its time preaching to its choir and wasting money on a lot of other things besides helping folks…and often when it does help folks…it does it in a quid pro quo manner to score points with a deity which is much different than helping a fellow human out of genuine compassion even if that person has nothing beneficial to offer your church and doesn’t agree with your church or your ‘correct doctrine’ or your gospel sales pitch that comes with the help-strings-attached (in most cases).
“Here’s some help to please my deity, to score me some heaven points, to make my ‘ministry’ look somewhat legit and in the hopes you’ll be a gospel-scalp for my ‘I saved them’ wall”…
Alex, there is an Orthodox church in Boise. The priest there is connected with my school.
Your EO church helps its own folks…which is why I probably have never seen any EO’s in Community efforts in my 40+ years of observing and participating in Communities.<<<
Have you asked all the Meals on Wheels drivers and soup kitchen workers and Hospital volunteers what churches they go to? Because if you did you would discover that some of them are Orthodox Christians.
Alex
Of course churches preach to their own. Why do you think they gather each week?
Wasting money? Almost right, but churches in general preach to their people to help others and additionally promote values which promote stable and peaceful communities.
Genuine compassion? It always starts at home so the best place to look is in the mirror, again the choir often hears such preaching.
Correct doctrine? The point of freedom of worship in these USA isn’t to establish doctrine at all. Rather it is the freedom to determine ones own doctrine, as groups and individuals.
Church is a very good thing even if they don’t agree with each other.
You’re so hung up on the tree you missed the forest. One tree does almost nothing to replenish the oxygen in the air while a forest scrubs and brings breathable air for all.
Alex
What’s the difference between a lamb and a wolf?
What they feed on.
Watch out what you eat.
Millstones are very heavy.
“Millstones are very heavy.”
Apparently they’re a mythology as exampled by far too many in the ‘church’
Sorry, not buying that version. The reality is different. Like I said, ‘church’ does some good. It also does a lot of bad and a lot of in between. Far too much of the public image the church propagates is different from reality and more and more folks are aware of that than you realize which is one big reason of the major increase in the “nones’
Again, most don’t really believe the mythology of the ‘millstone’ or they leadership would act much differently.
But, again, there are some decent folks in the church just like there are decent folks outside the church. My position is that all folks in all groups are pretty similar…capable of good and evil…and most ideologies can get along in general (except maybe Islam).
X, agreed, there are many different Sects represented in some of the charity programs…and even secularists and agnostics and even atheists.
A big difference is that many in “church” do whatever good things they do out of compulsion to please a deity and to prove their “saved”-ness and to validate their faith in a quid pro quo dynamic…which is probably not as “good” and virtuous as an agnostic doing good out of pure compassion and no personal perceived reward other than the reward of doing good for another human being.
How many pastors do you know who would eschew getting paid to do “good”….and how many do much other than just talking as the center of focus on a stage with followers who admire them? Not too many…
I know it is uncomfortable for this crowd/group to hear…but that is the reality and that is what others outside the bubble see and know to be largely true, unfortunately.
Alex has become a laughing stock here. He claims to know what others spend their time doing, and how much money they waste. Earlier today he claimed to know what churches in this country do wrong – not just knowing what some do, or many do, but what the VAST majority of churches do.
All the while he goes to church at the abusive CC Boise (abusive in the sense that they have never publicly condemned the child abusers in their system, the pastor refuses to shed the toxic CC franchise label – giving full approval to all bad acts) – and looking at their web site, it seems that they have refused to post their financials or their child protection standards. But Alex is a happy attendee – but will not allow others to be happy attending their church.
Amazing that you can even type your rants with a straight face..
MLD, you’re senility is showing and so is your thin skin LOL
For a guy who has such an easy time dismissing Martin Luther’s hatred of the Jews…you seem pretty thin-skinned and desperate when your church b.s. is called out. Just sayin’
your, I don’t want to offend the Grammar Nazis (not to be confused with the Luther Nazis)
Alex
Good morning!
What’s happening with you? It seemed as if you had turned into a new person of compassion and reason and then just recently the old belittling others self has reappeared.
You are not all knowing, logical and intelligent superior you think you are and in fact you’re more than likely a lot more average a person with a chip on his shoulder than you can grasp a hold of.
You are becoming the very thing you preach against, the lamb has grown into the wolf.
Even worse you are making MLD look good.
Alex,
You are hurtful in your communications.
Does anyone ever tell you that in person?
ANYONE?
Do you ever listen to them?
Just visited an 84 year old elder, a former law enforcement officer and friend, who talked about how hard it is for others in his church to listen to his warning about a specific individual that he had personally seen treat others wrongly (before any of them were around that church).
It strengthened my resolve in dealing with dangerous people who come around the church, even when those with a merciful attitude let that trump the dangerous facts on the ground.
May we as believers be bold where we need to be, and gentle where we need to be, and discerning all the time!
Thanks for this difficult story, Miguelio.
MLD, I don’t really care to overly defend CC Boise b/c I believe that Bob Caldwell…while good with his CC franchise…won’t do anything in his own Non-Denomination when it comes to the abuses of his co-Pastors who are endorsed by his Brand.
You can, however, get the financials and child protection policies rather easily from CC Boise, they don’t put it on their website. Far cry from not being able to get that info as is the case with the vast majority of CC’s and other similar Sects.
We decided to stop attending CC Boise b/c 1. My wife (while she likes Bob Caldwell) can’t help but think of the tacit abuse being perpetuated by even the good CC guys by their non-concern for so many known abuses and abused people. 2. Our kids didn’t really care for it. 3. We decided that it was a fool’s errand to try and make any changes to CC from within as a non-Moses Pastor. CC Senior Pastors are the only people with any real Power in that Sect…and a lay-person…minus a true miracle…has zero chance…and my belief in true miracles these days is pretty low.
Take your shots all you want…I am fine with it as long as I am allowed to respond in-kind and treated differently through being censored while you are allowed to take your shots.
Bob, there are times I am able to stomach the b.s. that passes for the macro-church public smuggery and holier-than-thou attitude (which you all have in spades)…and there are times my Conscience goes, “wow, these folks are effing delusional and sure lie a lot about their supposed fragmented and dysfunctional ‘faiths’ which are really a bunch of competing businesses, competing Gurus and competing Apologetics all competing for soul-scalps and numbers…and this resembles the Jesus of the Gospels in what way?
The freedom of expression and the action of expression is important to defend in a non-Theocratic society. You can hate it and attack it…but again, remember that sword cuts both ways and as I watch the Gay Agenda come to Power…I am torn as to whether I should join them in their hemming in you guys in light of your thin-skin and hypocrisy in not tolerating the opinions of others…or if I should defend your right to disagree and to push back…even when they say your speech is “HATEFUL!” and that you are “WOLVES!” etc.
JTK said, “You are hurtful in your communications.”
So are you, according to a large growing Consensus in the US every time you preach against Homosexuality and call it “sin” and “wrong” and “an abomination” and “evil” and blame it for destroying ‘Merica etc.
Which way would you have it?
You can cut the irony with a big knife….
Keep exampling your contempt for pushback and disagreement as ‘hateful’ and abusive etc….others follow along and notice quite the irony in your calling for “Freedom of Religion!” when it comes to all the “hateful” stuff you regularly hurl toward other Groups…
Hey, keep it up…I swear Christians are their own worst enemies.
….this also, ironically dove-tails (pardon the CC pun) with Michael’s homeless beer lady story…your smugness and high-horsedness and pride blind you from seeing the connection I’m sure. You carry the attitude and worldview that you are doing everyone else a favor with your particular flavor of christianity and you look to others as projects or victims or “if they just conformed to my particular version of religion, they’d be normal and good like me!”…when if fact you and yours are as in need of the real Jesus and in need of the help probably more than most segments in Society…
Again, your collective examples and actions speak louder than any words you will ever speak or type on a blog…and your bubble doesn’t allow you to see past your collective noses.
I am no better or worse than any of you…I just see things from a very different perspective now that I’ve survived the meat-grinder and dysfunction and cognitive dissonance of the general “faith”/Apologetic.
My final comment on this one…
If you can’t take the heat when disagreement and strong pushback and speaking against many of your practices based on a differing interpretation of the bible and the christian religion and it is labeled as “HATEFUL!” and “YOU’RE A WOLF!” and it should be banned and censored….
…then I suggest you all stfu about all the garbage the “hateful” “hate speech” that flows from the mouths and pulpits and blogs etc in your Bubbles when it comes to your speech and sharp criticism of so many others.
…careful what you wish for and example…b/c the day is upon you where you will need allies in the “Free Speech” debate…and I’m about done with typical “christians” on this one. Maybe it would be good for the Gays and the Liberal PC Police to have their ways with you since you are such duplicitous hypocrites.
So what about your Eagle pastor? – he is the same kind of scoundrel you rail against. Yet you excuse his thoughts and actions
He favors nepotism
I am sure that he is a ‘fundamentalist bigot’ and will not marry gay people
How many other things do you think I could list, just by looking at his web page?
The ECC pastor doesn’t make it a pet issue…but he is solidly in the “Hate Speech” Camp…and I would defend his right to strong criticism of other Groups…though I might be inclined to monitor your church’s sermons and public expressions and send the info in to Gay Groups b/c you’re such a jerk 😉
Where do you work again? Do they have a “hate speech” policy with regards to their agents/employs? 😉
MLD, what is your personal position regarding Gay Marriage? I think you’ve expressed in your “speech” quite a “hateful” stance toward it…no?
LOL
….but don’t disagree strongly with the blog horde or it’s “hurtful” and “hate speech” and you’re a “wolf” …see how that shoe feels on the other foot?
My position is that gays have the same rights I do – they can marry – but just like me, they can only marry persons of the opposite sex.
So what is the issue – do they want a special ‘right’?
I don’t think that a father should be able to marry his adult, consenting daughter, and I don’t think brothers should be able to marry their sisters and I am really against inter species marriages – but that does not mean that I hate the people. Why in your mind does opposition to something equate to hate?
Do you hate me because I oppose things you are in favor of? Do you “hate” gun control people, or do you just have a difference with them?
Alex wrote: I know it is uncomfortable for this crowd/group to hear<<<
You are mistaken in this. None of your postings are making anyone here uncomfortable. We are secure in our faith.
1. We feel bad for you as a person;
2. We are annoyed that so many God-affirming posts get derailed and Michael's edifying articles get derailed;
3. Frankly, we are bored.
Alex, you can monitor my pastor if you want. In my near 10 years at the church, the topic of gay marriage or even abortion has never come up in the pulpit.
I brought up at our board meeting the other night if we needed to start doing anything to protect ourselves in the same sex marriage issue – the entire board including the 2 pastors said no.
Alex, here is the issue – you said earlier “…now that I’ve survived the meat-grinder and dysfunction and cognitive dissonance of the general “faith”/Apologetic.”
You don’t understand, you are “he meat-grinder and dysfunction and cognitive dissonance of the general “faith”/Apologetic.”
if i were a moderator here (thank you, faithful mods, whoever you are) i would shut the door on this gymnasium that has reached ad nauseam, and lock it
#95 – yeah, what Xenia said … again
There are no moderators anymore.
There hasn’t been anybody but me for ages.
I simply can’t and won’t be on here 24/7.
Alex…take a breath and let others breathe.
MLD, we all are…which is further proof of your smug attitude and the general attitude of the group on here…very much like the Pharisees…very much like the attitude Michael expressed in his article about the Homeless Woman and the beer story (that was an incredible illustration and analogy of the general “christian’s” attitude in society today). I fully cop to being an a-hole and I don’t try to couch it in christianeze and backhanded slight-of-hand.
Michael, fair enough. I’ll give the folks a break for awhile for your sake, not theirs.
Yet I recall MLD once posting here that he always gives homeless people money, no questions asked.
In fact, MLD could not have written Michael’s article because MLD’s first impulse is not to ignore a homeless person who is asking for money but to automatically reach for his wallet. He has also stated that he doesn’t care if they spend it on alcohol.
Alex, serious question and I promise to accept, and not to respond to your answer.
Why do you continue to go to fundamentalist type churches? Why have you not chosen to go to any kind of church that is in full agreement with your views – such as the bible does not necessarily have relevance today – that it’s social norms do not live up to 21st century society. That it is hate to not allow gay’s in the pulpit or to not allow gays to marry and a whole host of issues.
I am sure that you could walk into any ELCA – PCUSA or Episcopal church and relieve any contrary or as you would say cognitive dissonance.
I am sure they abound in Idaho.
Remember, Alex, that the Christian who initially ignored the homeless lady was Michael who you hold up as the only Christian you know who really cares for the down and our (or words to that effect.)
MLD, who you call a Pharisee, would not have ignored the woman and would have given her some money, not caring how she spent it. And you can’t say MLD is trying to please “his deity” because his theology doesn’t work that way.
Some of that may be true, but he is still an LOL and no better than me or anyone else. Just sayin’
And speaking of more “explosive” stories…just discovered some very serious allegations on my blog that I didn’t notice before with all that is going on. Someone posting as “steve smith” is making some SERIOUS allegations about molestation and child porn in a Calvary Chapel affiliate (the author claims) in SoCal.
I sent the specific allegations to those listed by Calvary Chapel as “official Oversight” and those pastors are mandatory reporters.
Bad bad stuff if true. The hits just keep on coming.
I get inundated with this stuff and can’t keep up with it all…but the CC guys like Steve Wright say nothing is wrong and “Oh it’s just ONE bad apple!”…no, not true, this stuff is everywhere in CC…and folks wonder why I’m not a happy camper most of the time with “the church”
MLD not Michael above…just to clarify.
Alex,
Answer your phone.
I wouldn’t let that Horizon post sit there without any documentation…that’s a lawsuit waiting to happen.
I didn’t make the comment, someone posted it to my blog.
Alex, if Michael dies without finishing his book, it’s going to be your fault… only slightly jesting… Michael isn’t supposed to be here today, is he?
FWIW – i’m working on a re-write as i sit here today and aware that it is exhausting – BTW – i owe Michael a thank you for nudging me on to locate this used iMac a few years back… the editing capabilities are terrific, but still exhausting – not like sitting here on the Phoenix Preacher just mouthing off whatever pops into my head 😆
CC guys like Steve Wright say nothing is wrong and “Oh it’s just ONE bad apple!”…
————————————————————
Alex,
Your continued insistence to attach my full name to false statements and false beliefs which I neither have expressed or held can be motivated by nothing else but your desire to make sure my name is associated in internet history and searches with claims of indifference or even tacit support for child abuse and pastoral sins – and thus damage my reputation. You have succeeded in getting a lot of defamation about me in the search engines.
I could muster dozens of people, from this very community, who not only would call you out on this tactic but with give me the highest character reference in these sorts of matters.
At some point the “hurt people hurt other people” defense falls flat. I no longer engage you in this or any other forum, yet your personal obsession with me and repeated false statements about me are not unnoticed and I would suggest it is not a wise course of action given your current legal situation – if you’re seeking to prove that you only write what is true and write to warn, as opposed to a personal vendetta to defame and destroy against those you deem somehow your enemies.
I highly suggest you get some counsel on this and refrain from future statements.
i’m not a psychiatrist, nor i do i wish i were one… but i do wish i could find a rationale that would make me sympathetic to Alex… his comments on this thread are not even coherent… either i’m simply not sophisticated enough to spot his agenda or he really needs help… God, You know
#112 Pastor Steve has a case IMV
aaand
MLD is an asset to the Faith, a bit of a pompous, smug Lutheran… but, believe it or not, i think we should all be a bit smugger than we are about our privileges in knowing the God of our redemption, even if we are all mixed up on the details – smug and humble would be nicer, i guess… can one be smugly humble or humbly smug…
smug is a really weird sounding word
speaking of being “smugger,” which rhymes with “Dugger”
it seems to me that the Dugger son is a candidate for forgiveness and restoration – losing his job? his family losing their income stream, too? unless there’s more to it than a 15 year old growing boy going out of bounds for a season? must all be about the money again… to quote brian… again
Em,
Think about the frustration of three brothers who have sworn they were abused by a pastor and the church will do nothing.
I’d be worse than Alex…
We live in an age when people who seek a new church will search the internet for news about that church and its pastor.
The easiest thing in the world for me to do would be to go back to the private sector and the income I used to make there. I left that world, and its financial rewards, to serve the Lord, His church, and the least of these.
Our church is in a poor neighborhood. Homeless sleep on our doorstep. I used to take the time here to chime in when the discussion was about churches not helping the poor in their community, and to respond to the criticisms – but that no longer is really a battle I wish to wage on a blog. People can think what they want and meanwhile we will still minister where we do, to whom we do.
I do not concern myself with my paycheck. I served for less than an average of $1700 a month for the first 5 and a half years I pastored this church. I was blessed we could afford that given our other expenses. Unlike a lot of pastors, I actually can do something else out there in the real world.
However, if I left, the person who tried to take my position would inherit many financial obligations. For starters, the tens of thousands of dollars still being paid out for each of the next several years to my predecessor. Next, one of the most loyal, faithful servants of the Lord imaginable, our 20+ years assistant, who is suffering from an incurable, degenerative disease. I (and the church) are committed to him as long as he has need. We have a few others on the payroll too. Add in multiple missionaries around the world, and the orphans, lepers, poor and outcasts they support. And of course a mortgage (also inherited from my predecessor) and the associated expenses in keeping the doors open so that over 1000 worshippers of the Lord can continue to worship, fellowship, learn and grow here. In the last week we had THREE deaths of immediate church family and the church has rallied around all concerned. Not to mention the many sick and hurting folks that make up our fellowship
I already have one person spreading lies and false information about the church I serve (i.e. the people I love) and about me. However, his influence is closed and not open, internet fodder that unsuspecting, unknowing visitors or newcomers might read. But needless to say, if I was the sort open to abandoning the above responsibilities and obligations I have willingly placed myself into…I would have split in the first year.
Mine is one for the long haul – and certainly until most of those obligations cited above have concluded. The internet is a dangerous place and while most everyone here in the community rolls their eyes at Alex’s rants, the fact is I do have on occasion people come up to me and ask me directly about something he has written that they stumbled across by being on the top of a google search. And I think we all know that for every one person willing to ask, there are multiple people who also read but don’t.
I’ve said my peace, and explained my motives and do not have the slightest concern over proving either my integrity, my commitment, or the truth and openness of ANYTHING I have ever written or said, in public or private.
***it seems to me that the Dugger son is a candidate for forgiveness and restoration – losing his job? his family losing their income stream, too? unless there’s more to it than a 15 year old growing boy going out of bounds for a season? must all be about the money again… to quote brian… again***
He may well be a “candidate” for forgiveness but I would be careful about characterizing what he did as a 15 year old boy going out of bounds for a season. 12 years on one of his victims is still a minor. That means he was a 15 year old boy fondling girls who were no more than 5. That’s pretty sick and twisted. He wasn’t pushing boundaries with a 13 year old–someone who was close to him in age and for whom it might be normal for him to be turned on by. He was sexually molesting little girls who were 10 years younger than him and far too young for a normal 15 year old boy to have sexual feelings about. Pretty sick as far as I’m concerned.
#114 thank you, Michael… you know far more of the details of Alex’s past than i – years back i followed the saga here to an extent
one of the things that trip people up when they look for a reason to believe in our God is the horrible inhumanity to the innocents…
i’ve lived a long time, was a child and raised four of them, so i do have some familiarity with what they go through to navigate to adulthood, so many are not blessed to have a protective human advocate standing over them – they take terrible hits from cowardly adults – killers of souls and bodies, as well – and they never see justice in this world, let alone comfort and healing…
i think, to believe in our God, absolutely necessitates believing in the devil, in a spiritual war in progress now…
why? a question that won’t be answered in this life, but the day comes for every cowardly abuser when he (or she) stands before ultimate and unavoidable judge… the lover of the children…
i’m not sure Alex, the adult, is fighting a war that is his to win… and his abuser, if not in denial, is not as clever or as fortunate as he thinks he is…
if we really grasped that we’d know why we are told to pray for those who wrong us
thanks for the info, J2 – it would be hard to navigate as a Dugger offspring, i hope things work out for all of them
“Think about the frustration of three brothers who have sworn they were abused by a pastor and the church will do nothing.”
I think I would word it a bit differently. They were abused by their father / stepfather, who just happens to be a pastor.
But does this sound right – if it were me and my father?
MLD was abused by his father who worked at General Motors and the company will not do anything about it.
Also, I swear I will never buy a car again, or I will never buy a GM product again. Better, I will now write a blog telling everyone why GM products are bad products, why they really do not deserve to be called automobiles or better yet, why folks who own GM products are aiding and abetting child abuse.
I don’t think so.
Last time I checked, God had not set moral and ethical standards for GM workers.
I’ll be blunt.
I’m not going to have much discussion or debate on this matter.
You and Steve have made yourselves clear…now this is done.
Steve, there’s a bit more to your story…and there are folks who would counter any testimony you gave…especially about your version of who things have gone down at your CC.
…don’t play me the fool and don’t believe for a moment I don’t know what your veiled threats are and don’t believe for a moment I’m not well-prepared to deal with you in court.
Civil rights lawsuits are already in place with a Calvary Chapel-connected Prayer Breakfast that local Sheriff’s have gotten cozy with.
This will be a trend…dealign with these often corrupt too cozy relationships between Calvary Chapel and Government Agencies.
I’m speaking with the attorney who is bringing that lawsuit and will be helping give information about the cozy relationships and Agenda to infiltrate those Government Agencies and influence them.
Calvary Chapel targets these agencies through a very specific plan that can be shown over and over again and is very common in CC. The civil rights lawsuits will help correct this. Separation of Church and State is an important and necessary issue.
You can prattle on all you want and take your shots. It only motivates me and focuses me and makes me more resolved. This is a Marathon and not a sprint…it’s a life-long Cause and I’ll keep chipping away, chipping away, chipping away.
Good to hear your CC folks read the blog. I should probably repost that article about John.
Steve Wright said, “Your continued insistence to attach my full name to false statements and false beliefs which I neither have expressed or held can be motivated by nothing else but your desire to make sure my name is associated in internet history and searches with claims of indifference or even tacit support for child abuse and pastoral sins – and thus damage my reputation. You have succeeded in getting a lot of defamation about me in the search engines.”
There are others who post as “Steve” and you have made that same/similar statement many times claiming, in essence, it’s just one bad apple etc.
You are part of Calvary Chapel Association and a co-pastor with other fellow CC pastors and the bible says you are partly responsible due to your inaction…or do you disagree with the bible?
I’m ready for you and CC, come at me bro and know that the battle will be very long, very hard fought and it will help uncover more of the bad dynamic in your Sect/Semi-Cult church system.
Alex,
You do not realize how irrelevant your words are to the body of Christ in general and to CC in particular.
Since I do not share the “Alex bias” that Michael holds, I have no problem saying all of your statements above are fabricated and are crap.
Your civil rights lawsuit, which I am sure is in your mind only will never go anywhere. Private citizens are allowed by law to be both members of a church and to be involved in civil government – the fact that they pray and plan together means zero.
Are you going to also be suing a bunch of mailmen (government employees)who are friends who gather for lunch and pray together?
You my friend have reached the looney edge.
This is done.
There is no profit in further strife.
MLD, it’s not “my” civil rights lawsuit…it is a current court action being taken in Visalia b/c a Sheriff attached himself to a BG/Tony Perkins City prayer breakfast….and you’ll see more of a push for Separation of Church and State in the near future with similar events and similar cozy relationships between taxpayer-funded agencies and churches like CC etc.
Just clarifying the record Michael. I’m not going to engage Steve Wright or MLD any longer on this thread…what they say doesn’t really mean anything anyway…what is is and what will be will be.
http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/spiritual-life/5-indicators-of-an-evil-and-wicked-heart.html