Before I Go…

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32 Responses

  1. Crusader says:

    Relating to Mike Kestler, a few weeks ago on the web site of The River Christian Fellowship, the links to the previously-recorded Sunday morning Bible studies that were done by Pastor Dave Rose were pulled from the web site. That raised a red flag at the time that something was up.

  2. OCDan says:

    Jesus warned of us of this. How they love the titles, the garb, the places of honor. Sure, they will serve, maybe, but at what cost to others. Jesus freely gave up His life. These types of men will serve, but not if it means they have no where to place their head.

    Even sadder is that there will be those that follow these types of men and even defend them.

    Michael, you are right, How long, O Lord?

  3. Em says:

    and saddest of all, IMV, is that these men caught up in the ‘game’ are so far from the God they well may think they represent… or maybe the saddest of all is that a Holy God has to wade thru this muck to seek and save His lost ones

  4. I have no idea who Kestler is and barely have an idea what this recent hubbub is about, but why in the world are they wearing Albs and Stoles?

  5. OCDan says:

    Perry, all for show. Let everyone know how spiritual we are.

  6. OCDan,

    But CC is generally against sacramental vestments. This is why it doesn’t fit.I could see if they were becoming Catholic, Orthodox, or Lutheran maybe, but not CC.

  7. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Perhaps these guys are just Shriners in different out fits – abs and stoles instead of the Fez.

  8. Josh the Baptist says:

    Maybe they are a dance crew?

  9. Papias says:

    Which proves that you CAN TOUCH THIS….. 😉

  10. Paige says:

    Perry, I have seen a number of long time CC attenders drawn to liturgical churches. I do think the uber casualness of the CC style is very good for many, but for some, the longing for formality, ritual, litergy and garb leads them to these sorts of practices…. My personal little element of this is the old version of the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer. I like it.

    Or, my cynical self says that some love the adoration and awe of the lay folk when wearing ‘holy’ garb. IMO

  11. meme says:

    Hey Mike, go FROCK yourself! 😉

  12. says:

    And why is John Oliver allowed to “touch the Lord’s anointed” and so blatantly ignore the Moses model?
    Seriously, is our only standard of accepting criticism (in the church) is that those being criticized must sanction it?
    I watch that and think it’s loopy (examples John shows), but I’ve also lived in the South where many people fall for it (not that the South is the only place).
    I knew some who heard of antics in CCs and wonder why I and other fell for it.

  13. Scott says:

    I heard a new movie is coming out called, Meet the Frockers. Starring, Mike Kestler.

    On another note, I’m expecting news to drop in the Yohannon story of his concubines. When you have an abuse of power and money like this, the other is usually not far behind.

  14. Scott says:

    Also, how any pastor in CC could send one more dollar to KP after reading the oath of allegiance he requires those being ordained in his church is beyond me.

    That’s the kind of stuff Jim Jones started with back in the day. It’s very disturbing to me, especially since I came out of the sheperding/discipleship movement of the 70’s.

  15. j2theperson says:

    ***Or, my cynical self says that some love the adoration and awe of the lay folk when wearing ‘holy’ garb. IMO***

    I don’t know what the pastors wearing the garbs think, but as someone in the pews of a liturgical church I can say that I’ve never seen this adoration and awe which you wonder might exist. One of the purposes of priestly garb is to maintain uniformity and keep attention off of the specific individual performing the priestly duties as well as to remind the person performing them of the weight of their role and the responsibility they have to conduct themselves in an appropriate manner.

  16. Abs and Stoles serve a better purpose than Greg Laurie spending $200 plus each week for a new shirt that he wears only once. Even if he gives the shirts away (which he may do) it is still for the attention.

    My pastor wears his black clericals as his sinful self and is covered by his white abs as God covering him in at the pulpit and altar.

    Stoles have little decorations on each side – one time we bought the pastor one with the California Angels logo on one side and the NO Saints on the other … his 2 favorite teams.(not for altar use)

  17. Tim - Doulos says:

    MLD –
    “My pastor wears his black clericals as his sinful self and is covered by his white abs as God covering him in at the pulpit and altar.”

    Your pastor must have good abs for you to point it out. I didn’t know Lutherans worked out so much. 😉

    In all honesty, I have no idea what Abs are in regards to vestments. I did a quick Google search, but didn’t see anything. What are they?

  18. Josh the Baptist says:

    Glad to see they don’t also sell the pointy hat 🙂

  19. Em says:

    in defense of the tradition of clerical robes… historically, every office had a uniform – from the king on down… they do have a psychological affect on the masses and it’s a good one, if there is understanding of the significance and if the “significance” is a legitimate and honorable one, i.e., salute the uniform, if not always the person in it

  20. Em’s observation is quite accurate, it’s why in the West men wear suits & ties and have assistants and underlings to get work done,
    and artists wear daubs of paint, chalk, pastel, and anything we want 😉

  21. Nonnie says:

    The clerical garb could be written off as cultural, but the way the leader is demanding their complete subjection to him is deplorable. Also I was appalled, when I read about way staff, especially women have been treated in GFA.

    As for Mike Kestler having claimed back his “Senior Pastor” title……well anyone who sits under his teaching and gives money to his “ministry,” then they deserve what they get.

    Ironically, some people will be more upset about pastors wearing clerical robes than they will about an adulterous pastor.

  22. Em says:

    in defense of suits and ties – not all suits are “empty” … but it is a sad truth that it seems to be a law of nature that it isn’t always the cream that rises to the top … just talking at the breakfast table about the unique skill to take a bow and get a promotion because the guys under you worked their tails off with skill and intelligence – intelligence and skill that is of much more value than the skill of “looking good” and promoting self

  23. Em says:

    Nonnie’s #22 … amen from this corner

  24. Josh the Baptist says:

    My ole bud Steven Furtick use to say “Dress for the job you want, not for the job you have.”

  25. j2theperson says:

    There are plenty of people who wear suits and ties and who do useful, meaningful, and necessary work. And there are plenty of assistants who are not “underlings” and who do not do all of the work and who are not oppressed or ill-used by the people in suits whom they assist. I say this as the underlings of a man who wears a suit.

  26. j2theperson says:

    I will also add, my boss who wears the suit and does business-type stuff, is a million times better of a boss than the one who was an artist and did artsy-type work. You can be a horrible person and be an artist. You can be a horrible boss and be an artist. What you do for your work has basically zero to do with how you are as a person and how you treat other people.

  27. Paige,

    Given that I am Orthodox, that is not exactly a newsflash or in itself problematic that ppl leave CC or CC clones for liturgical bodies We have a ton of them at my parish in HB in Costa Mesa’s backyard. What does seem problematic is that they are engaging in liturgical and sacramental vestments which are at odds with CC teachings and attitudes. So it strikes me as either one of two things. Either they are in theological transition or its all for sanctimonious show. You can guess which option I think is the more probable.

  28. The suits I love are the ones who get dirty, who lead by pitching in, flat organization, serve all by asking for those with proven talent in an area take on goals and projects, check in often, collaborate.

  29. Shaun says:

    The robes and church polity issues don’t bother me much. Maybe they should, but they don’t. I support all kinds of ministries that are different doctrinally, but still teach salvation by faith in Jesus Christ. I never presumed GFA was exclusively a Calvary thing just because KP speaks at the pastors conference, just like I don’t believe Franklin Graham is Calvary just because he spoke at a pastors conference.

    I am curious about the transubstantiation, but not sure it is a deal breaker for me. I support Voice of the Martyrs, but they are historically Catholic.

    I don’t like the oath of ordination – it seems as if it is more concerned in your obedience to KP then it is to God. Don’t get me wrong, everyone should honor their pastor and give him the benefit of the doubt – but that honor should never be demanded. When I hire people I expect them to honor God above me. I hope they defend me, I hope they like me, but I don’t demand it.

    I don’t like the financial issues – but admittedly as I have tried to wade my way through them I am sure I don’t understand half of what I am reading. I had to look up “smurfing”, NGO’s, and Corpus funds. There is a long list of forms that mean nothing to me. Having dueling accountants go at it is not really helpful to me (especially when one is reviewing public docs, and the other has full access). Here is what I have discovered:
    – smurfing is just carrying cash into the country without declaring it – presumably to prevent taxation, seizure, or tipping your hand that you are doing missions work. I have discovered that other missions organizations larger than GFA do it regularly, and consider it the same as smuggling Bibles or lying on your paperwork to gain access to a closed country. I am not sure I like any of it, but maybe I am naive.
    – NGO – Non-Governmental Organization. Apparently GFA has more than they are reporting, which is bad, somehow, in relation to money and reporting. These may be used to hide money? I really have no clue.
    – Corpus Fund – a fund that you cannot use the money from, only the interest. GFA has $21 million dollars in this fund and is only allowed to use the interest. This is a great idea that sustains the organization for years to come – if the funds were given with this as the purpose. I have no way of knowing, but I do know universities and scholarship funds get these donations from time to time. It is a way to make you donation perpetual. I am for it (and believe it explains nearly half of the money that is just sitting in accounts).

    I don’t like that I have to do all this research. I wish GFA would just answer these questions clearly. I realize that they believe every answer is going to be followed with two more questions and they see those questions as never ending. The thing is, I am not a reporter – I am a donor. When I have spoken to them on the phone they have been cordial, but I always feel like the guys I am talking to really only know some of the information – and in that one area he can be clear, but the rest is little more than opinion. I have asked for written answers, but they are so afraid someone is going to use them against them they just want to talk. It is very frustrating.

    I don’t like that the diaspora group is unwilling to accept the offered confessions and attempt at reconciliation on a one on one basis. I get that they believe the confessions don’t fully encompass all the problems, and that they should come at a joint meeting of both the American and Canadian boards, but a letter to the group and individual emails is more than many people will ever get from a large organization. Take it as a goodwill offering and begin working in these slightly restored relationships to seek full repentance and restoration. I have done this many times in my own life and found it to be a very fruitful way of proceeding.

    I don’t like that the GFA is not getting credit for policies that have changed since this began (no more “smurfing”, allowing attendance at other churches, more open campus). A changed policy is both a admittance of past action (confession) and a promise to do differently in the future (repentance).

    I don’t like that people want me to have this very complicated issue figured out today (please defend GFA or please defund GFA). Honestly, I have spent hours on this and I will not make a decision until I am sure that I have the facts. I can’t focus as much time as Warren or even Michael. I read through the links as I get time, try to understand them, and pass them on to our elders for prayer and discussion when we have time. That is what I can do – please be patient. I am glad you have it all figured out, but I don’t.

    I really don’t like that I am nervous about posting this because my past experience here has shown that opposing views will be attacked and mocked.

  30. Michael says:

    I’ll give you credit for responding at all.
    I’ll work with Warren on helping clarify some of these concerns.

  31. Em says:

    #30 – at one time long years ago i had to wade a ways out into accounting waters… i learned that if you give two different accounting firms your taxes, they will come up with two different amounts – due or refund … our tax code is right out of Alice’s rabbit hole and i wonder if some corporations (NGOs and non-profits, too) haven’t gotten smart enough to work this to their advantage

    to their credit, i as an individual have had to deal with the IRS and found them accurate and patient… ‘course my finances are pretty simple – not much to debate

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