Complementarianism Gone Crazy: Kevin H

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44 Responses

  1. R'as al Ghul says:

    Because it is so much easier to cry Havoc to keep the wimminfolk in line than to confront the abusers and corruption in the church (see the SBC as Exhibit A on that). Yet another reason why Calvary Chapel needs to end up in the dustbin of history.

  2. Bob Sweat says:

    😞 Sigh!

  3. Bob Sweat says:

    Graves should be wearing a wife-beater T-shirt.

    I see this kind of sh#T and i’m so happy I escaped CC years ago.

  4. bob1 says:

    Somehow it seems to me that ideological extremism like this always overplays its hand.

  5. Captain Kevin says:

    Oh brother! I wonder if any other CC pastors will have the cajones to speak against this, or at least a message that softens the edges.

  6. Muff Potter says:

    Nowhere in Scripture does it teach a hierarchy of who can do what, based solely on plumbing received at birth. Lemme’ repeat that, NOWHERE does it teach any such thing.
    Just because Paul (writing to his protege in Ephesus) sez such and such, DOES NOT mean that it must be applied to all times and to all spaces in the Church universal.

  7. Kevin H says:

    Muff,

    I did not write this article to debate complementarianism/egalitarianism. I respect those who see differently, but I don’t want to get bogged down arguing over something that is not the point of the article. Also, being that the large, large majority of the church throughout it’s entire history has subscribed to complementarianism, I do not feel the need to defend it, as there are tons of other resources out there that do a much better job of it than I would ever do.

  8. Kevin H says:

    CK,

    I highly doubt there are any CC pastors, at least those in the Calvary Chapel Association, which is assumingly all the pastors in attendance at this conference, that will have the cajones to speak out against this. Ken Graves is a big shot in the CCA. Joe Focht, arguably the most powerful of all the pastors in the CCA, hosted this conference and it was his church which produced and put out the social media clip promoting and glamourizing Graves’ words. The example was already set with Brian Brodersen as to what happens when one doesn’t walk lock step with the powerful figures of the CCA.

  9. R'as al Ghul says:

    Joe Focht is just the Capo of an East Coast crime family as I see it and Ken is his Made Man.

  10. Reuben says:

    Like the Catholic commencement address being very Catholic, Ken’s words are very Calvary Chapel. I downloaded Joe’s sermons almost every Sunday back in the day. I’m overly familiar with him. This is company hat stuff. My level of disinterest in the church grows every time I hear things like this.

  11. Michael says:

    In a weird coincidence, I had watched this Flintstones cartoon the night before Kevin sent me this article.

    Graves has always been a caricature of “biblical masculinity”…insecure men lap it up.

    The thing I did notice is how much these CC elders are aging…

  12. Steven says:

    It’s stuff like this that reinforces my gratefulness that we left (even though the scars certainly still remain) and we still struggle to find our place in our new church.

    I can hear all the “defenses” coming to him with the “You didn’t hear his message,” or “focus on the message, not the ramblings.”

    Or (worst yet) “that was a great teaching and you are wrong for being critical.”

    Or: “How dare you be critical of such an amazing man of God. Don’t touch the Lords anointed.”

    And stuff like that.

    This drivel was poppycock from beginning to end. For a teacher from a movement that expounds “just teach the text,” more time was spent OUTSIDE the text than in it.

    On a dude note: he should change careers to cartoon or video game voiceovers.

  13. Steven says:

    And no one in CC will dare “touch the Lords anointed.” By daring to question it.

    Even If they have any ability to critically think.

  14. Michael says:

    Steven,

    The real way that many CC teachers of this generation comes from Jon Courson…”read and ramble”…

  15. R'as al Ghul says:

    The problem is all the rambling distracts from the topic and would make people who actually cared about it want to leave. Such things would never be tolerated in a business meeting or professional presentation.

    For Courson and his imitators, all I can say is a quote by WC Fields: “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.”

  16. Bob Sweat says:

    Oh yes, those all familiar phrases: “He is a great teacher.” , “Touch not the Lord’s anointed.” The last quote was in reference to a king.

    I remember how many of the men in the CC that I attended felt Graves was their hero. Graves and MacArthur are examples of complementarianism gone wild.

  17. Bob Sweat says:

    I should add that my roots in Quakerism has caused me to draw a line in the sand regarding Jewish culture and gospel truth. Just an opinion. Kevin calls me a heretic 😁.

  18. Jean says:

    If half or more of women have a job, how is the kingdom of God advanced if your message to them is, by working, “You’re doing life wrong”?

  19. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    Michael, in retrospect “read and ramble” sounds like a guy who was up here for awhile. It was amazing to demonstrate how if you cut out all the rambling asides about sweet real estate deals and the guys who made it possible one of the guy’s sermons went from about 81 minutes to a mere 27 minutes.

    CC may have a culture that has mastered the art to an unusual degree but it does seem symptomatic of a few necks of the proverbial woods. 🙂

  20. Muff Potter says:

    Kevin H wrote @ 6:12 am:
    ” but I don’t want to get bogged down arguing over something that is not the point of the article.”

    That’s like saying let’s have a discussion about pennies, butcha’ can’t mention copper.

  21. DavidH says:

    I saw Ken Graves speak at a CC Men’s Conference in the early 2000s. He babbled for about 45 minutes. What I do remember his story about his Bible holster. “You have to be armed with the Word.” He was shilling them at a booth. He struck me as an overbearing blowhard.

  22. Captain Kevin says:

    I spent almost 30 years in CC’s, and never once listened to Graves. Seems I really missed out. 🤣

  23. JR says:

    Wow!
    What happened to praying for people instead of back biting? God will deal with him and me and you . I think of the letter Paul wrote to Timothy exhorting him and encouraging him he also calls out some people in a loving way. Some of the comments I left that church because or this guy or group hey great I pray God has blessed you and is causing you to grow in your walk. There’s no place for coarse words in the comments let’s walk in the spirit the battle belongs to the Lord. Amen brothers and sisters 🙏

  24. Michael says:

    JR,

    Public criticism of public figures is not back biting.

    We’re called to judge those in the church.

    Second, when you start your own site, then you can police the comments.
    Your Christianeze is more profane to me than cursing…

  25. Janet Linn, BrideofChrist says:

    I read this article yesterday and just a few hours later read an article dated May 24 in the New York Times with the header ‘Women Have Gotten “Too Mouthy,” Says This Republican Senate Candidate’. Royce White, a former pro basketball player won 67% of the vote from delegates at Minnesota’s Republican Convention on Saturday. There seems to be quite a bit of this same sentiment being expressed. I can’t help but wonder what White and Calvary Chapel Pastor Ken Graves plan on doing exactly to take away women’s voices? At Calvary Chapel Vista I was told from the pulpit by a church leader that I had no right to vote. Instead, I had to vote however my husband ordered me to vote. After 30 years of attending this church, I left after that day. The leader who spoke that day was Debbie Bryson, wife of George Bryson.

  26. Michael says:

    Janet Linn, BrideofChrist,

    Back in the day, Bryson was our #1 self proclaimed enemy here.

    Trust me when I say that neither he nor his wife should have been speaking on family issues…

  27. Jr says:

    Praying for you Michael 🙏

  28. Kevin H says:

    So sanctimonious there, JR.

  29. Janet linn BrideofChrist says:

    I was married at Calvary Chapel North Park (Horizon Fellowship today) by Pastor Bill Goodrich. He’s now on the CC Association Board, I believe. That was 45 years ago! I was 21 and I had just graduated from SDSU the month before. If I had heard that CC was against women voting I’m sure I wouldn’t have been married there. I went on to teach school for 35 years and I taught about US Government and the history of voting rights. I taught boys and girls that it was both a right and a duty to vote. Debbie Bryson taught that wives had “no right to vote, even if you think that you do”. This was in front of 300 women in the main sanctuary of our church -I’m sure there’s a recording it somewhere. Debbie Bryson led the Women’s Study there at CC Vista about seven years ago. I’m sure that the lead pastors thete were aware of what she was teaching. It certainly shocked me at the time, enough that my husband and I both stopped attending. Anyways, have a beautiful day! And thank you again for this site!

  30. Bill barry says:

    Did anyone watch the whole study? I did and it was a tribute to God creating men an woman equal and in need of each other. Don’t let one line determine your view of this man,instead give him the benefit of the doubt.Yes, the short line could be interpreted as sexist,but having listened to several of his studies over the years, he is not sexist.Many women go to his church because of his strong encouragement for men to love their wives like Christ loves the Church.

  31. JR says:

    Bill 👍💯

  32. Too much Drama says:

    Here’s my observations about this pastor based on this one video. I know nothing about him, nor have ever read or listened to any of his speeches.

    My first impression is he represents the world. He says he represents Jesus and then is tattooed up like the world. I’m not against tattoos, but have to ask the question of those who say they follow, represent Jesus and yet have to be cool like the culture of the world.

    Second impression is he says a lot about the bible and yet never really teaches the bible.

    In Genesis the words translated into “suitable helper,” multiple times, literally means, “a helper who pushed against,” “ezer neged.” A woman, a man’s wife, was never, in God’s design, meant to be walked on, trashed talked about, nor bow down to man.

    This man, Graves, impresses other men by his looks, voice, demeanor and yes “manly” tattoos. He draws men to himself. As my wife likes to say, “where is God in this?”

    I think he’s just more entertainment in the name of Christianity. Follow Jesus instead!

  33. Idahoan says:

    I confess I didn’t watch the whole sermon, only the last few minutes, so maybe he answered my questions earlier… Where exactly does scripture reveal that men (in general) are wired to be head of “the home” and women are wired by God to be the heart of “the home”?

  34. Kevin H says:

    Bill Barry,

    One main point from my article that you failed to grasp is that this one line that you say “could be determined to be sexist” (and I would say the ramifications were far worse than that), was taken and promoted and glamourized. That short part of his speech was taken, clipped, had dramatic music added to it, and was published on social media for all to see.

    You say the rest of the study was just fine (although TMD in the very next comment also listened to the whole thing and found it superficial and wanting), but they decided to take the one bad part and promote it. Again, this is so indicative of the troubles of the American evangelical church today, which was the premise of the article. Bad or even dangerous theology is given, but not only is it given but is done so in a very commanding, authoritarian, dramatic way, and then it is taken and promoted for all the world to see, likely because it was done so both dramatically and by a high profile pastor.

    So many expansive troubling traits of the American evangelical church wrapped up in one small instance of abysmal teaching.

  35. Kevin H says:

    TMD,

    “This man, Graves, impresses other men by his looks, voice, demeanor and yes “manly” tattoos. He draws men to himself. As my wife likes to say, “where is God in this?””

    “I think he’s just more entertainment in the name of Christianity. Follow Jesus instead!”

    Yup.

  36. Reuben says:

    I don’t personally care what he looks like or the fact that he was born with a low voice or has tattoos… I wasted half an hour scanning the “sermon”. As was said, there was not much there. But the end proved it was a “sorry, not sorry” diatribe. I am not going to watch the whole thing. I am all too familiar with the “complimentarianism” of CC. It was company hat stuff. So was the end. Frankly, I could have spent an hour watching South Park and learned more. I’m so sick and tired of the church bitterly clinging to Pauline doctrines. I am so sick and tired of CC apologists. I’m so sick and tired of the church. Show me who Jesus is. I don’t know the god of Ken Graves. Or the god of Joe Focht and his KJV only antics. I don’t know the CC god.

  37. Reuben says:

    And let me be clear, Ken Graves didn’t say anything any other CC guy would or has said, he just didn’t candy coat it. At least he is honest about the company line. This is nothing new or shocking. It’s the same knuckle dragging crap postulated from CC pulpits since forever. Mars Hill too. Hell, for that matter, SBC.

  38. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    Christian Rock Hard is still an amazing episode. 🙂

  39. Muff Potter says:

    Idahoan @ 10:06 am,
    I’m with you.
    Nowhere does it say any such thing.

  40. Reuben says:

    WenatcheeTheHatchet, that was a great episode

  41. Kevin H says:

    Reuben,

    “This is nothing new or shocking. It’s the same knuckle dragging crap postulated from CC pulpits since forever. Mars Hill too. Hell, for that matter, SBC.”

    Yup, and that’s the overall point of the article. This type of thing is not special to CC, but is common in the American evangelical church.

    Thus, however unlikely, my call for change at the end.

  42. Reuben says:

    I’m sorry for kinda losing my mind there, Kevin.

    I don’t like Complimentarianism. I don’t like CC apologists. Should have just left it at that.

  43. Kevin H says:

    Reuben, no problem. Your words were true.

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