Confessions of a “Homophobic” Pastor
Our brother Dr. Alan Hawkins has written a compelling article on the church and same sex marriage.
We are honored to repost it here.
Confessions of a “Homophobic” Pastor
A friend posted on my Facebook page that he is a gay man.
It was a plain and somewhat courageous admission on a Christian pastor’s page but his example has emboldened me to give you grounds for rejecting me up front. My title might shock some, but by any realistic definition a gay person would consider me to be homophobic. No, I do not like the ascription but it is better for me to admit it and deal with it. In other words get the ugly stuff right up front.
Since I will admit that there are many things about homosexuality being normalized that disturb me you could ascribe the phobic word against me. Often, people who do not know how to be civil or engage in healthy conversation resort to name-calling. Because I intend to enjoin a discussion, let me say up front that if you come at me with accusations and abuse, you will simply be removed from any discussion on this page. Calling anyone a bigot will be received as if you are using an epithet and you will be blocked. Either discuss with civility or be banished.
Of course I know gay people and frankly I do not know any that I do not care about or regard with love. However, my love has never resulted in my endorsement of gay relationships or of homosexual love. So if you are gay my heart is not closed to you, but we will come to an impasse if blessing your relationships is required of me. Your dilemma is feeling that I am rejecting you for something that for you is unchangeable. Mine is dealing with the collapse of an authoritative basis for faith if I do. For you the revealed truth is based in your constitutional makeup, for me the revealed truth is in an authoritative scriptures. I care deeply about my loved ones who are gay. I pray and hope to have ongoing relationships of love and peace with them. I desire to actually listen and hear them giving every opportunity to change my mind. My deepest faith conviction is still that as the follower of Jesus I am to love all and that I never have the right to condemn people. That judgement is God’s alone.
The great problem is that embracing homosexuality as virtuous would be to deny everything I understand about revealed faith and the scriptures which are the foundation of my life. Thus, I have to deny my faith to embrace as virtuous what I believe to be forbidden. This is no small matter. I am not being asked to place homosexuality in the ranks of other sins or even of my own sin. What is being asked is that homosexuality be seen as virtuous. That is a volcanic distinction and re-assessment.
I know many believers that have made that journey, some have kindly and often privately told me as much. While I acknowledge their freedom I do not acknowledge their wisdom, understanding or propriety. In other words, I think they are not dealing with the full consequences of the collapse of an authoritative Bible. This issue will shred and perforate the scriptures until you are left with a text that you simply cannot trust. Authority is the central issue of life and a source of authority is vital.
The legislative testimony used to seek legalization of gay marriage centered on one theme. They claimed that their private happiness was of no consequence and caused no harm to those who opposed them. The reality is that the full force of jurisprudence, education, media and a all other cultural powers must now rally to the task of rooting out all opposition. Public dissent will be as unsavory as the Confederate flag in the White House. Already, religious speech is being equated with hate speech. Already, parents are facing children who have been won over by these forces and see the parents as hate mongers. So frankly there are some things to be “concerned” about if you reject the Supreme Court decision. Frankly the phobias are at the gate.
Michael:
“They claimed that their private happiness was of no consequence and caused no harm to those who opposed them.”
This is the key sentence in the whole thread.
There is nothing “private” about the whole process.
This was a huge hit during my teen years. It’s no wonder we boomers have destroyed so much of what was “good and right.”
But it has a good beat and you can dance to it!
Lola
I met her in a club down in old Soho
Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like Cola cola
C-O-L-A cola.
She walked up to me and she asked me to dance.
I asked her name and in a dark brown voice she said, “Lola”
L-O-L-A Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Well, I’m not the world’s most physical guy,
But when she squeezed me tight she nearly broke my spine
Oh my Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Well, I’m not dumb but I can’t understand
Why she walk like a woman and talk like a man
Oh my Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Well, we drank champagne and danced all night,
Under electric candlelight,
She picked me up and sat me on her knee,
And said, “Little boy won’t you come home with me?”
Well, I’m not the world’s most passionate guy,
But when I looked in her eyes,
Well I almost fell for my Lola,
Lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
Lola lo lo lo lo Lola lo lo lo lo Lola
I pushed her away. I walked to the door.
I fell to the floor. I got down on my knees.
I looked at her, and she at me.
Well that’s the way that I want it to stay.
And I always want it to be that way for my Lola.
Lo lo lo lo Lola.
Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls.
It’s a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world,
Except for Lola. Lo lo lo lo Lola.
Well I left home just a week before,
And I’ve never ever kissed a woman before,
But Lola smiled and took me by the hand,
And said, “Little boy, gonna make you a man.”
Well I’m not the world’s most masculine man,
But I know what I am and I’m glad I’m a man,
And so is Lola.
Lo lo lo lo Lola. Lo lo lo lo Lola.
Lola lo lo lo lo Lola. Lola lo lo lo lo Lola
To be clear…I did not write tis.
This is by Alan Hawkins.
http://www.johnstackhouse.com/2015/07/01/on-trusting-god-rather-than-freaking-out/
Another perspective…I’m somewhere between John and Alan…
But, you are a glutton 🙂
I am a Glutton-o-phobe 🙂
Agreed that homosexuality is not normative…not a design that was intended or the perpetuation of the species.
Is it “immoral”? An argument could be made that it is a “religious sin” and not a “moral sin”…but it could be a moral sin.
Even taking a hard-line and calling it a moral sin…is it any worse a sin than pride, lying, greed, hetero-lust or fornication? No. Is it worse than gluttony? Probably not.
Most mainstream conservative Christians and Muslims and even many conservative Jews etc believe it is “sin” and immoral. OK. That is their right…to hold a religious Moral Opinion.
What they do with that opinion is another matter.
The mainstream “church” caved long ago on Divorce and on p0rn watching and on fornication etc etc.
Would it make it all better if homosexuals just said, “OK, it’s sin…so what, let us get married like all the other sinners you let marry”
“So if you are gay my heart is not closed to you, but we will come to an impasse if blessing your relationships is required of me.”
This one’s pretty simple, as the estimated population of the planet is 7 billion and counting, simply stop seeking the “blessing” of any human being and be your own person. Go to the bible on your own, read the bible in context, book by book, story by story. Pray just like the persons in the bible prayed, crying out to an unknown Creator, and count on this God to meet you and be with you, ongoing, throughout all of your life. Above all, pay special attention to Jesus, in the 4 gospels. Come to your own conclusions and stop being dependent of a “blessing” from any pastor, priest or person…
…except when they point out to you that you’re being a jerk, then take that one to heart and do something about it.
Then, do a google search of the phrase “religion is like a…”
———–
http://36.media.tumblr.com/22039925ba21a6c778bedd4ab6bf6d62/tumblr_nqpzvdLrie1sh491mo1_1280.jpg
long hair is considered “shameful” by the letter writer Paul
This is gold:
“The great problem is that embracing homosexuality as virtuous would be to deny everything I understand about revealed faith and the scriptures which are the foundation of my life. Thus, I have to deny my faith to embrace as virtuous what I believe to be forbidden. This is no small matter. I am not being asked to place homosexuality in the ranks of other sins or even of my own sin. What is being asked is that homosexuality be seen as virtuous. That is a volcanic distinction and re-assessment.”
” I am not being asked to place homosexuality in the ranks of other sins or even of my own sin.”
I disagree…in practice and example the evangelical church is much more gracious to the other sinners in its Leadership and in its pews.
Look around you the next time you’re in service….gluttons, fornicators, liars, greedy, prideful you name it…and that’s just the Pastors.
But, who knows, maybe Putin and Russia have it right and maybe I’m wrong on that issue. Maybe we need to engage the Culture Wars and draw firm lines and go to war.
I forget that this is the only forum where G-man and I meet…
I have no issue with the man’s words. I agree that no one needs my blessing.
However it is not possible to live in a world of laws and not have some form of human blessing upon your actions. Seeking court protection is seeking blessing.
Good point Dread.
In practical terms our collective “Morality” is often defined by the Courts and societal opinion.
Slavery is OK in the bible…not OK in our law and society…same with polygamy (though that door is re-open) and same with child abuse and concubines/sex slaves etc….all endorsed as “moral” in the bible and society at one time.
A Friend
The LGBT community does not want us to equate porn with homosexuality — they want their sexuality to be considered normal and ordained by God.
If the matter was one of acknowledging sin and dealing with it as sin the gay community would be fine with the adulterers, pornographers and other such things.
I make no claim to be free of sinful desires… none.
As for gluttony well I have not pursued rights as a class of people and protection by the government thought the lobby would be powerful in that regard.
“The LGBT community does not want us to equate porn with homosexuality — they want their sexuality to be considered normal and ordained by God”
Agreed, but in practice the “church” has already done that with a litany of other sins.
Tell me one glutton you’ve not served the sacraments to….one liar, one fornicator, one greedy person etc.
Love covers a multitude of sins?
“As for gluttony well I have not pursued rights as a class of people and protection by the government ”
Because you haven’t been denied anything as a glutton…except healthcare in some cases…but that got done away with in Obamacare as now insurance companies can’t reject anyone.
…though Michelle Obama and Michael Bloomberg may instate the Fat Gestapo and do something LOL
the human race has a serious disease and it’s killing us – one by one, minute by minute… the diagnosis is: we have sin… it erupts in a variety of conditions:
gluttony is a silly and embarrassing one
murder is a horrible, sudden and final manifestation of the disease – one can’t ever get over being a murderer once the act is done – but, since most of us have murder in our hearts from time to time, if it erupts in the deed, shouldn’t we decide that it is okay …?…
that would be clearly nuts… no need for God’s opinion on that…
melding homosexual practices into the structure of a society will corrupt the innocent and bring the community down… am i right? … time will tell – but God said, “don’t do that! ,,, really, really, really don’t!” and if there is a God, i am right and so is The Dread of Babylon, aka Pastor Hawkins
BTW – homosexual practices are not expressions of love, … they are, rather, sex acts… something that one loves to do for a variety of reasons (kind of like gossip, in that respect) just sayin…
“Seeking court protection is seeking blessing.”
Hardly. Loving v. Virginia was merely the removal of unjust restrictions, seeking non-interference… oh wait, we’re talking about something else…or are we?
Seeking non-interference by subcultures is the key to the discussion.
Muslims are free to practice their beliefs within their subculture, but to impose restrictive Sharia subcultural standards on the greater secular American culture is where most thinking citizens draw the line.
We religious have amazing freedoms to choose to hold our texts as sacred, to band together and discuss, affirm and declare our religious convictions. We rightly choose to practice our faith through our rituals during our gatherings.
What we do not have a right to is an enforcement of our subcultural beliefs on the greater secular culture and society when we are conducting business or the business of government.
One can choose to self-limit interaction and involvement with the greater secular culture and society, and to even invite civil discussion, debate, to seek to persuade, to live by such virtuous example as to inspire awe and draw followers, which is exactly what Jesus had in mind. Once we excel at that we will improve our own lives and those of our neighbors and communities, indeed, the world.
“The purpose of a preacher is to persuade. The purpose of a teacher is to make students ready to engage.”
~Dave Brisbin
or one could just say: the purpose of a preacher is to preach – the purpose of a teacher is to teach… 🙂 sorry, G
thinking… thinking… (yes, i do think about what most folks comment)
does #20’s assertion make a drill instructor both a preacher and a teacher? …
https://youtu.be/xKxvOMOmHeI
Em,
I prefer Dave’s delivery. He’s one of the kindest and wisest men I’ve had the privilege to know.
Also, I can’t ever encourage anyone to put themselves in a place where they have to deal with a drill instructor.
I like Daves way better too.
I hear his voice when I read it
I hear Dave’s infectious kindness as well 😉
“the purpose of a preacher is to preach – the purpose of a teacher is to teach”
…it’s way too much of a non-definition by defining a definition by using a word to solely define a definition, thinking one is being definitive
Yeah, that too.
Well, I am product of the Drill Instructor approach…and look how I turned out, perfectly normal! 🙂
Is it homophobic to disagree that homosexuality is the norm?
I thought it was only homophobic if there was harassment, prejudice or some form of harm involved.
Since when did it become “phobic” or hateful simply to disagree?
Well London,
First I used quotation marks in the title and I admitted I don’t like the ascription, but I have been accused of it a number of times. Further, a reading of the post shows that I actually admit some “concerns” which is code for fears.
Calling people names is a way of dismissing their voice. I do not mind being called names. Some of them are apt. Whatever people call me I know worse things about me so… But I assure you that my resistance will inspire names… G-man has wagged his noble finger at me more than a couple times and we pass on opposite sides of the street most days.
So… Dread
It was kind of a generalized question. It’s bugging me that people are labeled haters just because they disagree.
As for you and G…I just close my eyes and let you guys battle it out till you’ve gotten it out of your systems.
Oh, and I can call you some names if you’d like 😉
Yes, London it bugs me as well.
We believers have our angry fundamentalists.
Other groups have reactionary radicals… I never find more anger spewed that when I discuss God with atheists or morality with non-christians
Self-righteousness is a human condition … ridding the world of churches will do nothing to lessen it.
As for the names…
Well, I am at your service…
“The LGBT community does not want us to equate porn with homosexuality — they want their sexuality to be considered normal and ordained by God.”
Far too broad. We’re talking about humans, not a monolithic movement. There are some that would affirm the above, others who who don’t care what we or God thinks, culture warrior nazis, who want the govt to impose standards on others, and those who just want the govt out of their business, and mock gay pride parades.
I’m sure I’ve missed some “categories”, but can we please be careful with the brush strokes?
lol. I’ll see what I come up with then.
I have a young friend who years ago started a comic company with an eccentric buddy. They created a comic book character based on the second guy. Their idea was to sell comic books with stories that would help different NGOs. Super nice young guys just trying to make the world a better place. Not very $uce$$fully, but still…trying to do the best the can with the skills and passion they have.
Some gal on social media took offense and is busting their chops about the color of the skin of their character. She’s offended and calling them names. So funny because the sole reason she’s pissed is she believes the guys skin color is wrong.
The irony of being called a racist while being a racist is hilarious and sad all at the same time.
This country has lost its mind.
My way of sorting out Right vs. Wrong / Same Sex Marriage vs. Opposite Sex Marriage / Protestant vs. Catholic vs. Orthodox and all others, is to let them all do things their own way after you have told them about Jesus. Then all of the Iscariots will hang themselves. Either on a tree or by standing on their own ground during the wrath of God.
Friend, i don’t think you are the product of a drill instructor – a wannabe, maybe?
i’ll stick to my guns on preachers and teachers, but i lack abstrucivity…
i’ve had a little experience teaching – my style would best have been called “nudging,” i picked it up from a teacher whose style finally made me realize that i could do college algebra… so if nudging a brain to *engage* fits Brisbin’s model, …. then i’d call that good teaching and very engaging
and IMV preachers who don’t teach are tedious and boring unless they are really, really good story tellers
why did this item come up on this thread in the first place?.
“This country has lost its mind.” London, that statement gives me some hope… now if you can just get the word out lol
God keep
Jim,
I was pretty careful in my blog post …
Appeal heard I do hate broad brushing…
Peace
Happy, personal or public is way over rated I think personal joy is way underrated and even mocked. Deep down I get great joy out of service to folks, I fight it and try to remain miserable or unaffected like a robot but I fail at that. I suppose that too will be on my list of sins come judgement day but. If my personal happiness would hurt another person I dont think I could be happy getting such a choice. Another reason I should fear come judgement day.
“…we pass on opposite sides of the street most days. ”
I do whatever I can to stay on the side of the street with the Samaritan
This thread reminds me of how hard it is to have actual engagement on the content of a post. Michael that must be one of the hardest things about blogging.
The Samaritan is the one who showed mercy.
So is the neighbor the one who shows mercy according to the teaching?
What kind of mercy and loving kindness is it to accept and promote any form of life which is long term bad for others?
The Samaritan took a man who was essentially dead and brought him back to life. How does that apply to this topic?
If the ISIS killer/be-header from the videos were to be caught what would or should be done to him and is this an application of the Samaritan, who is our neighbor, teaching?
The point is tossing out single biblical ideas is a whole lot more difficult than any of us would like. Homosexuality and all deviant sexual behavior is not good for humanity, but loving your neighbor is good.
What was the sin of Sodom and how did it play out in their sexual practice?
49 “Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.
50 “Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.
Wow is this saying our “abominations” are a result of our selfishness and lack of concern for others? My needs are more important than the needs of my neighbor?
I’m not “homophobic” just recognize the movement for what it really is, self and lack of mercy (hesed).
“Is it homophobic to disagree that homosexuality is the norm?”
Agreed, it’s not homophobic to acknowledge fact.
From a purely scientific evolutionary perspective…homosexuality serves no biological purpose to perpetuate the species and is akin to a psychological issue.
It is not normative in the species and is an anomaly….about 3%.
If the species ever became 97% homosexual…it would likely die off and go extinct….unless it evolved and became asexual and could reproduce without male/female biology.
G-man wrote @ # 19 :
What we do not have a right to is an enforcement of our subcultural beliefs on the greater secular culture and society when we are conducting business or the business of government.
Which is precisely why the Founders of our Nation wisely ensured that the spheres of religion and government remain separate and that neither is allowed to meddle in the affairs of the other
It’s important to remember that these protections go both ways. Preachers will be never be compelled by force of law to perform same sex unions in their places of worship if their conscience forbids it, nor will their free speech rights to preach against homosexuality from their pulpits ever be infringed. Not on these shores not ever.
BD,
It is the single most frustrating part of this media, especially when you have written carefully and thoughtfully as you did here.
I contemplate retirement a couple of times a week.
The precept that will keep you writing is that we write for the lurkers, not for the commenters.
Muff,
Your #47, precisely.
Michael:
I know from experience when a teaching is given I want the listeners to hear one thing and yet somehow they hear something completely different. You know, that’s Okay.
While your purpose may be in one direction the resulting turns and the ensuing exchanges may be God’s purpose after all.
When G, MLD, “Friend” and all the others write, I read and listen.
Quite often I strongly disagree, but reading and hearing their debates has benefited and broadened me personally and I thank God for such exchanges, even when they are frustrating.
Oh, and you’re too young to retire.
as a mostly lurker, thank you Michael and BD.
my post about the Samaritan is a response to Dread’s astute observance that we are on always on “different sides of the street.” He’s right and I have no problem with his observation. He views me as “wagging my noble” (sarcasm noted) finger, when all I did was to speak my mind. Dread chooses to take a provocative tone and I simply think he comes off as a buffoon.
When he used that image I immediately hearkened to Jesus’ story about the lawyer and the priest who strutted down the street and crossed the street to avoid the unsavory person in need while the Samaritan, without fanfare, didn’t think twice about engaging the stranger and even paid for short term food and lodging.
Jesus made a big thing about how we do our religion.
With fanfare or quietly?
Jesus was about quiet.
Quiet is about influence, one person at a time, face to face, eye to eye, or at least one interaction at a time.
Bob,
Thanks for what you just posted
Thanks Bob, I appreciate your input and pushback as well, I think you add a lot of value here…as much as those you mentioned.
“enforcement of our subcultural beliefs on the greater secular culture and society”
Heterosexual marriage was hardly a function of the Christian subculture that is revisionist history to an insane degree.
Further, I live in a world of persuasion and not coercion… Never have I coerced anyone to anything.. not publicly or privately… coercion is demonic.
People are free to make their decisions.
I realize this issue has rapidly gained momentum. The masses who made a majority that did not endorse gay marriage have been won over by the drumbeat of media and now by court action. They will all suddenly become moralist … like our national leaders who got elected sniffing the wind on the subject and now chide opponents as bigots and haters.
Politics is a game of winners and losers… it is generally a zero sum game
This issue is decided. I actually said that long ago.
So be it… to the margins I go with my primitive mind.
Candidly, I’m over the sport of debate. I pop in here because I genuinely like Michael and many of the people here. I love his thoughtful musings and his attitude that thought he believes that he does he remains “a work in progress”.
gotta step away, wishing all a profound sense of awe at being part of this beautiful thing we call “The United States of America”
G-man
That was impressive …
So quietly powerful I am in awe of how you find yourself the hero of the red letters.
You should thank God that you are not as I ….
Buffoon Dread
No Dread, I readily admit I am a work in progress, I just choose not to be an attention addict while I deal with my stuff.
Honest question, how do you square the words of Paul when he wrote,
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/11-14.htm
with
https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xtf1/v/t1.0-1/p160x160/1513708_10153551208799156_5275419779192580906_n.jpg?oh=79d41e96dff1786fdb2a1eb9735875d2&oe=561BF2DF&__gda__=1444902153_c44a737f15ee5e3c89538036b38c728a
G-man
You managed to ridicule me with another subtle name calling
You managed to wag that finger again
You managed to call up eisegesis of Paul to add to your ridicule narrative
You managed to get my profile picture after blocking me on Facebook, that’s a little creepy.
You managed to do it all with the humility of “honest question”
I laughed so loud they threw me out of the support group.
What must I do to be saved good sir?
In case G-ster hasn’t told you all he solved the problem of the loss of an authoritative Bible by jettisoning his long ago, perforations notwithstanding.
His use of Paul to taunt me was another brilliant underlying ploy. Whatever he is, he is not a dummy. But,
There is no need to answer a man who has no interest in the question he asked.
He was just working out his stuff.
BD,
At some later date we will have to have a discussion of the real crux of the issue in house.
That being, what do we mean when we say the Scriptures are authoritative?
You have argued in the past that inerrancy asks too much of the Scriptures.
It is a easy definition, however.
How do we define ‘authoritative”?
You mistake my asking an honest question with finger wagging.
Your public profile picture is shown on the link you published above. Not creepy at all. Right click your picture you will see “view image”, that’s where I got the link.
Subtle name calling? Hardly. You’re coming off like someone who has no self awareness.
About Paul, I remain with the greater majority of average readers who read a guy like Paul as having good & bad to say and retain the right to question what clearly doesn’t make sense in a casual conversation over a beer.
The honest question remains, how do you square the 2 links I posted?
Michael,
Inerrancy is a recent addition in terms of modifiers to the authority of the scriptures. In my mind it was a bridge too far and a modifier that required too many qualifications to sustain.
The doctrine of scriptural authority was given to us by the Reformers, though the church prior to them was not without a belief in scriptural authority. The canonization process alone was a question of authority.
It is enough to say that the scriptures are inspired by God and that they are definitive as the rule of faith. To deny matters as vital as the creation of man in the image of God and as male and female is to assault a matter of such significance that we are left with massive problems to sustain credibility.
The issue at hand is validated on the lips of none other than our Savior who defined marriage quite clearly as male and female. His position was so strong that in the matter of divorce and remarriage he staked out the strictest ground of the debaters of his day.
To deny scriptural authority is to ultimately leave one without foundation to believe the narrative pointed to Jesus as LORD and Savior.
I can say more but that is a start
Dread,
one more time, let’s make this simple,
how do you square the words of Paul when he wrote,
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/11-14.htm
with
https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-xtf1/v/t1.0-1/p160x160/1513708_10153551208799156_5275419779192580906_n.jpg?oh=79d41e96dff1786fdb2a1eb9735875d2&oe=561BF2DF&__gda__=1444902153_c44a737f15ee5e3c89538036b38c728a
BD,
I believe I concur with all that thou hast written. 🙂
Especially the part about losing the foundation…
We will have to explore this in greater detail later…
G-man
Answer my question and I will answer yours
What authority do the writings of the Apostle Paul carry in your life?
Was Paul from God or was he elevated by the church?
You did it again… you are absolutely brilliant … the well of your scorn is deep sir.
Cluelessly Dread
G,
How long is “long hair.”? An approximate will do.
What if Babs’ hair was the norm for men in Paul’s day and women wore their hair half way down their butt. Wouldn’t that mean Babs was wearing “short hair”
What if you and I compared our hair and your hair was longer than mine – would you have “long hair”?
Again, you don’t get salvation so you end up “splitting hairs”
BD,
Thanks for responding @#41. I guess we just disagree (meaning, YOU’RE WRONG!!!) 🙂
In the comments you said, “coercion is demonic”.
That is the first principle of Christian libertarianism. Welcome!
Jim,
The first real Christian challenge to coercion that dealt directly with the matter belonged to the anabaptists who unlike the reformers were not able to find a haven to protect them from persecution.
Being subject to the assaults of both protestant and catholic the anabaptists resorted to ideas as a haven. They died for the idea that faith could not be coerced.
That is a foundational principle throughout Christendom today…
The libertarians are heirs not originators.
I was in their number long ago in that regard.
Letting people do as they please generally sorts things out. But victims abound.
good reading as always…
i finally listening to N.T.Wright link above – i’d heard it before, but good teaching is worth repeating and i did come away with a thought that will dominate my thinking today – a secular one… if you haven’t considered the danger of the State redefining words, Wright will give you reason to do so
“The libertarians are heirs not originators. ” Agreed.
I don’t spend a lot a time here, but tend to hang out on a Florida forum. I have this bad habit of quoting people out of context and exclaiming, “you’re a libertarian!” It tweaks the Fox News Republicans, which I enjoy far too much.
And G-man
Let me make it easy on you.
My picture is a clear evidence of my latent deviance…
And Paul was getting over his Pharisaism
I may return and take all of that back.
But for now… you win!
the couple called this a horrible ordeal:
“PORTLAND, Ore. – The Gresham bakery that wouldn’t make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple must pay them $135,000 in damages, the Bureau of Labor and Industries ruled Thursday.” from kgw website
wasn’t a cakewalk for the bakery either, i’ll wager
Em,
Who’s to blame in the bakery travesty, the gays or the govt?
that’s an interesting question, Jim … 🙂
Dread,
This not about winning, this is about being welcoming and how we can better engage our family, friends, neighbors and those who are “the other”.
I don’t care about what Paul wrote about long hair because that simply proves his writings have to be read & understood in the cultural context of the writer & readers back then, so they don’t necessarily apply today based on science and cultural refinement.
Have a celebratory weekend, rejoicing in our freedom.
Peace
Oh I so DO get salvation, sealed forever by the finished work of God that nothing can add to, subtract from, take away or diminish the family bond that Jesus illustrated when He told of the ever patient, rich father who patiently endured one child’s inability to grasp his continued privilege & blessing while hilariously running to embrace his other child when that ones self realization prompted him to beg for any mere place at all in his father’s domain.
That is the depth of salvation, my salvation, your salvation.
“…his writings have to be read & understood in the cultural context of the writer & readers back then, so they don’t necessarily apply today based on science and cultural refinement.”
As with the words of Jesus, and yet you make the words of Paul words of less relevance because of culture.
Jesus spoke of purposeful and methodical division of family units, even though he created families and gave them primary importance. Jesus put doctrine, the Christian faith above family and culture.
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https://youtu.be/4Lk2KHajp4Y
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Paul and hair and hats indeed takes some fleshing out … You knew I would agree with that. I knew you would not say Paul was from God.
As per welcoming our LGBT family “honest question”
What will welcoming the bi-sexual family look like?
Presumably this step is in order if we are to be consistently welcoming.
Dread,
Great song, between us fellow longhairs, Crosby speaks for both of us
Great question.
All I know is God does His greatest work when individuals are welcomed to Him, and He works out the rest.
About a song…
http://davebrisbin.com/2015/07/03/a-perfect-song/
AF. @46. My earlier post was meant to say homosexuality is NOT the norm.
Was typing on my phone and didn’t proofread
Hey Dread,
Anyone tell you that you look like Rob Ryan?
thinking on other’s thoughts here… without Paul would the Gospel have reached the Western World? … oh, i know, God would have found a way 🙂
Solomon,
Many
Em,
It was indeed Paul.