Covid Controversies

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45 Responses

  1. Em says:

    Well thought out and expressed – IMHO, Michael

  2. Michael says:

    Thanks, Em.

    That video is very informative, in my opinion…

  3. Dan from Georgia says:

    I have yet to watch this video, but I can tell you that being willing to be wrong and being willing to changes one’s mind is ok in my book. The people I worry about most are those who put a foot down and will NOT change their view NO MATTER WHAT evidence to the contrary are put before them. The second tier of people I fear most are those who make EVERY DAMN THING in life political…and they are usually a subset of the first group.

    OK, I was in the group that looked down on “alternative therapies”. However, if we are to be honest and open, by all means TEST these alternative therapies to see if they are beneficial. But will that ever happen or be allowed? For the record I am vaccinated and will get a booster, not because I am a sheep, but because vaccines work for most people, and I don’t want to end up on a ventilator in the hospital or dead.

    Lastly, if anyone here wants to get religious on me and say I am living in fear and that “Jesus is their vaccine” so you are better than me…come to Newnan, GA and let’s “talk”…

    /rant

  4. Dan from Georgia says:

    …sorry I tend to get a little combative when people get “religious” with me.

  5. Michael says:

    Dan,

    Amen!
    I learned a long time ago that being proven wrong was a blessing…because I learned something new and grew in my ability to think.

    I am seeing the effect of the politicalization of everything in my own family…and it is damnable in every way.
    Baptizing everything isn’t much better…

  6. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks Michael! Those who are not teachable tend to not be humble either.

    Understatement. Of. The. Year.

  7. josh hamrick says:

    I’ve written an article on the same topic, and will post it in its entirety here:

    Talk to your doctor. Don’t listen to me, Michael, or any conspiracy you can find online. Go to your Dr. ASk them what to do. Follow said advice.

  8. Linn says:

    A friend of mine lost a cousin in his 40s to COVID over the weekend. He had no comorbidities, but he was the only person in the family unvaccinated because he hadn’t gotten around to it.

    I will leave my comments there.

  9. Michael says:

    Josh,

    Unfortunately, I have a bunch of doctors…and they don’t agree.

    I have never given counsel here other than to get vaccinated if you can…and do ask your doctor.

  10. Michael says:

    Linn,

    I’m pro vaccine.
    Had three shots.
    I still have questions.
    Don’t you?

  11. Stephen says:

    Hear hear! You echo my thoughts exactly.

    Because you state things so well, I only have one comment to add:

    1). The push for vaccines for kids is due to the potential spread to adults. It has ZERO to do with concern for children. This could be tied into some other agenda or interest (political, pharmaceutical, etc) but Moho, that’s a likely bottom line.

  12. Michael says:

    Stephen,

    I think that’s probably right…

  13. josh hamrick says:

    You can also ask your DR about your children as well.

  14. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I get the impression that you think I shouldn’t write on this topic.
    Help me understand why…

  15. Kevin H says:

    It is so frustrating getting information in this whole thing that is not tainted (or suppressed) by some agenda. And sometimes the taint can be huge.

    I try to stick with those that can be strongly gleaned from significant data and guileless logic. Things like:

    While given that a minority of people do have legitimate medical concerns and complications in regards to vaccination, I do try to point out to the rest of us that the overwhelming amount of data we now have clearly shows that vaccination reduces the chances of getting COVID, considerably reduces the chances of getting seriously sick, and greatly reduces the chances of death. And the logic flows from there that even if one personally doesn’t have many comorbidities that would place them at high risk, the vaccine does reduce the chances of contracting COVID and so it follows that, if vaccinated, it then reduces the chances that you could spread it to somebody else who may be more vulnerable. This is the main reasoning for vaccinating children, although then in their case, if reducing the spread to some degree is worth the side-effect risk we would place on our children.

    As for the masks, which is another highly controversial piece of COVID, I speak to the logic of how they reduce the spread of the virus (just like how we have forever been taught to cover our mouths and noses when coughing or sneezing to combat the spread of all other germs) and how that we now have many studies indicating the effectiveness of masks (which we didn’t have at the beginning of the pandemic). I also speak to the fact that we have no credible or verifiable studies showing that masks, or certainly not masks alone, cause any significant level of harm.

    I also speak to the very, very inconsistent and often disingenuous ways that people suddenly have tried to make masks and vaccines a religious freedom issue. These things would only genuinely apply to some small minorities such as Christian Scientists or Jehovah Witnesses.

    Beyond these things, I often find it very hard to find unbiased, transparent, and credibly-informed material and opinions.

  16. Michael says:

    Kevin,

    I wouldn’t quibble with anything you’ve said here.
    I would say that wearing a mask (which I do whenever I leave the house) is really hard on those of us with heart and lung conditions.
    I don’t go out much as a result and that has its own implications.
    I still think it’s the right thing to do.

  17. Kevin H says:

    Michael,

    I get that it’s hard for some and I’m fine with allowing for medical exemptions for mask wearing for people with legitimate conditions. The difficulty then becomes how so many then try to abuse the “medical exemption” thing when they have no real problem that would preclude them from wearing a mask. It just makes it all the harder then to try to put such things in place. People and their attitudes are just screwing up everything.

  18. Michael says:

    KevinH,

    People that have that much impairment (like myself) are the ones who need the mask the most…

  19. Kevin H says:

    Yes, not an easy solution. At the very least, the mask is more for protecting others than it is yourself (unless you have something like a proper fitting N-95 mask that is meant to also primarily protect the wearer). But the masks do still offer some small measure of protection for the wearer.

  20. LInn says:

    Michael at 12:17,

    I have many questions, but, as of now, vaccines. good hygiene. masks and social distancing seem to be the best way to combat this thing that we don’t understand. I am just tired of the endless debating, fault-finding. Christmas “newsletters” from friends that are anti-vaccine manifestos, etc. I was cornered by a parent at Sunday School last week about why my preschoolers were wearing masks on the playground (my church has a mask policy due to a medically fragile child). I felt like telling him to stuff it, but I explained that it was too hard to keep the masks straight for the 10 minutes we were out there. I’ve chosen to give it a rest and wait for some more definitive answers.

  21. josh hamrick says:

    Michael, we need fewer voices, only the most qualified, and preferably, locally connected to speak on this. Mountains of competing conspiracy theories only further resolve the idea that anyone’s guess is just as good as mine. Actually it’s quite simple. Go to your doctor. Local in person doctor, not youtube doctor. Ask them what you should do. Follow their advice.

    Now, I don’t have to worry about what the governement is trying to do to me, or the pharm companies, etc. I talk to a person who knows me, my medical history, and is far more qualified to an opinion than me.

  22. Em says:

    IMX… and FWIW….
    Doctors/physicians fall in two categories…
    Researchers and the ones who rely on pharmaceutical organizations for their info

  23. Jean says:

    “Covid Controversies”

    No controversy here.

  24. Michael says:

    Linn,

    I agree that for those who cantata them, vaccines and the other preventative measures are a good thing.
    However, we now have millions out of work and the threat to remove millions more.
    There are side effects and injuries.
    There are the other issues I’ve raised.
    I think they’re worth hearing and discussing.

  25. Michael says:

    Josh,

    In a perfect world, fewer voices, but educated and informed ones would be ideal.
    That’s not the world we live in.
    Any medical issue should have your own doctor as your primary source.

  26. Michael says:

    Jean,

    That is no surprise as you’re certain about everything.

  27. Jean says:

    I’m not certain about everything, but I also don’t consider uncertainty a virtue.

  28. Jean says:

    “In a perfect world, fewer voices, but educated and informed ones would be ideal.
    That’s not the world we live in.”

    That is the world I live in.

  29. Michael says:

    Uncertainty is not necessarily a virtue…but when certainty disallows questions, it is a deadly vice.

  30. Michael says:

    Jean,

    “That is the world I live in.’
    Then you have no television or internet.

  31. Jean says:

    You are welcome to your world. I simply am reporting on my world. I don’t have time for TV and internet experts.

  32. Michael says:

    and you are welcome to yours.

  33. Linn says:

    Michael,

    I think I’m just tired. It may be because I work in a school where we have constant testing, constant reminders for kids to be masked up, frequent absences because students have COVID, etc. After all that mental effort to remember all the protocols, I’m more than happy to let other people do the discussing. I do keep up by reading articles and listening to responsible journalism, but sometimes I just like to leave COVID alone for awhile.When the pandemic first began, the choir I sang with (through a differen church than the one I attend) went online. I was thrilled that we would still be singing, until the rehearsals turned into 90 minute long COVID discussions. I just couldn’t do that all the time, especially when I was adjusting to online learning and some quite traumatized students. I know enough-that some people are negatively affected by vaccines (I know a person who contracted Guillaume-Barre and is still recovering his walking function), that there may be some government over-reach on requiring vaccines (except it just takes one person to infect a whole bunch of people), and that we have a long way to go to discover what makes COVID tick. I also seem to be living my life, and I am trying to focus a bit more on that (while still keeping every COVID school requirement to the letter!).

  34. Steve says:

    Kevin, If you believe the vaccine could hurt you, why is that not a religious issue? As a Christian, is not our body the temple of the Holy Spirit?
    Likewise I’ve heard a million times that we should get the vaccine as an act of loving our neighbor? Is that not a religious plee? If you don’t want the vaccine because you don’t think it’s safe and there are no long term safety studies on it, why would any Christian object to their brother or sister getting a religious exemption from the mandate? That I don’t understand. Everyone`s conscious is different, so respect that. The tyranical unconstitutional mandate is the problem not the religious exemptions.

  35. Kevin H says:

    Steve,

    This is where the consistency issues come into play for those who want to make the COVID vaccine a religious issue. Vaccines have been around for more than 200 years now. There are a bunch of them that long have been mandated for participation in various segments of society (school, military, etc.). Every single one of these vaccines carries some manner of risk when taking them. And yet, there is scant any history of objection to any of them by Christians based on religious freedom or “conscience” issues.

    If Christians are to be consistent and genuine, they should have been making the same arguments against all these other vaccine requirements over all this time. But they haven’t. At the very least, Christians who are now arguing for religious freedom against COVID vaccination should be doing the same against all other vaccine requirements. But they aren’t.

    These matter of facts pretty much demonstrate the fallacy of religious objections that Christians are now making against the COVID vaccine.

  36. jtk says:

    Michael, I stand with you.

    Why do I have to have it all figured out and have to have a hill-to-die on level conviction? It’s the NOVEL Coronavirus and we are still figuring out so much.

    I’ve lowered the internal and so far kept the external drama immediately around me low.

    My local church has done great in that regards, not sure of all the reasons why.

    But it’s like everyone else DEMANDS a loyalty oath.

    I know people whose entire family is all in them NOT getting the vaccine, and another family that is even preachier and more manipulative about them getting the vaccine.

    An acquaintance just told me;
    people are trying to get me to drink 2 different flavors of Kool Aid and I’m just out here trying to find a drink of water!

  37. Alex says:

    Like you, I don’t know the truth about this pandemic/endemic or about vaccines. So I do the best I can. All of those in my household have been vaccinated w/ boosters, except my 8 yr old granddaughter. We are waiting on more info to make a decision about vaccinating her.

    One reason that I wish everyone who medically can would get vaccinated is because of the impact those who become sick with Covid have on our hospital systems. My daughter has cancer. We must go to the ER/ hospital a lot. These days, that is a chaotic, frustrating, maddening experience, with poor care, and it is all because of Covid. Healthcare workers are going crazy and burnt out. ERs cannot find beds for their patients who need to be hospitalized – why? because the limited beds are overrun by Covid patients – my daughter spent 4 days in the ER (with grossly inadequate care) recently because there simply was no bed in her hospital or hospitals for 100 miles around.

    Further, there is a ‘no visitor’ policy in ER and hospitals due to Covid infection fear. This means that I (or anyone) cannot visit my daughter at all when she is hospitalized. I cannot tell you how awful that is on family.

    There are pastors in our area who are openly and vocally anti-vaccine. Their cries of “Freedom, not fear” infuriate me. One pastor [Calvary Chapel], unvaccinated, just spent 2 weeks in ICU on a ventilator, pulled through and is now home. I know him well, and hoped his experience would change his mind. No, he now is loudly proclaiming that his experience is evidence that God will preserve those who get Covid as an example of His wish to thwart the government who uses Covid to enslave the people. His people follow him blindly.

  38. arthur says:

    Kevin @5:30: trying to make all vaccines the same (and the arguments for or against them) is disingenuous. The other vaccines that have proven track-records of success actually PREVENT one from getting the disease. Not so with this vaccine. Additionally, all of the other vaccines were tested over long periods of time before being used or legislated in the institutions you mentioned. There has been so many lies, so many contradictions from the very beginning of this that no one should question whatever decision any individual makes. To each his/her own. FYI, I abhor pastors who try to influence their congregants in either direction. Rom.14:23 says anything not of faith is sin. We must be OK with the choices made individually by people. I have taken the counsel given by Josh repeatedly: ask my doctor. He is a friend, a believer, and is treating patients who come to him with a 98% non-hospitalization rate. He is also risking his standing in the medical community for doing so. THAT is one more thing that makes this vaccine different.

  39. Kevin H says:

    Arthur,

    I could contend some of the points you made while agreeing with others. But here’s the only relevant matter concerning what I have actually addressed – What does any of that have to do with religious freedom?

  40. Everstudy says:

    Kevin,

    From what I understand, the religious freedom aspect comes from the point of view that if the vaccines are created by utilizing genetic lines from aborted fetuses, they would be violating their religious conscience by using the vaccine.

  41. Kevin H says:

    Everstudy,

    I have come across that argument, too, multiple times. But again, it comes back to consistency. There are many other vaccines and medications that have been developed through aborted fetal cell lines, some probably from the exact same line as the COVID vaccines. But the same Christians who are balking at the COVID vaccines for use of the aborted fetal cell line reason have never said a word about these other vaccines and medications, and many have even gotten the vaccines and used the medications, even to this day. Maybe many were previously unaware, but even as this awareness is now being made greater, there is nary a word said about these other vaccines and medications.

    So, again it is a consistency issue. If people truly believed it to be a religious freedom issue and a violation of their religious conscience, they would then be protesting and speaking against these other vaccines and medications. But they aren’t.

  42. steve says:

    Kevin, I believe the strongest defense of the religious exemption for the covid 19 vaccine is that all of these vaccines were developed at warp speed, bypassing many safety protocols and are only emergency use authorized with no long term safety studies. Take the fact that Big Pharma is motivated by greed, we may not exactly be getting an unbiased scientific understanding of adverse side affects. These vaccines are nothing like the standard ones required in public schools today. As a Christian you can make a very strong religious argument that being forced to be jabbed with something that is basically experimental may not be so good for the body. There is nothing inconsistent about this, other than the inconsistencies coming out of the CDC from day one.

  43. PM says:

    @10:59

    But where in your scenario is the religious part of a religious exemption? I don’t disagree with being concerned about the speed of development but there isn’t a religious principle to rely on.

    I grew up in a church with a contentious objection to serving in the military. They were consistent in this belief(turn the other cheek, no lawsuits, etc.). Now that I’m 30 years removed from that fellowship, I couldn’t just refuse military service if there was a draft. I don’t have a visible demonstration or affiliation to support a CO position.

    Same with vaccines, without a demonstrable opposition to all vaccines, a religious case for refusing this vaccine will be hard to make.

    I strongly support your personal choice to vax or not. But most of the people now claiming religious exemptions don’t have leg to stand on.

  44. Steve says:

    PM, a religious belief does not have to be recognized by anyone other than the person who holds it. But from a Christian perspective, you can easily look at your body as being a temple of the Holy Spirit and not wanting to take poison. Im glad you support choice to Vax or not Vax but the issue comes in when there is mandate to get vaccinated or loose your job. That is the situation many are in including myself. I work 100% virtual from home with no chance of infecting anyone but the government with their mandate insists I get vaccinated. There is no choice but declare religious exemption, loose your job or get vaccinated. This is tyranny.

  45. PM says:

    I’m in California and also wrestling with the OSHA ETS for 100+ employees. The ETS provides language to accommodate remote workers, but companies or the state may impose stricter regulations. The ETS is poorly thought out and I expect CAosha to swoop in and try to one up the feds with their own standard.

    I’m a proponent of vax personally(for me and other adults) but believe there are good alternatives for those who choose not to be vaccinated, or can’t be vaccinated. Our business managed through three waves, 2 before vaccines were an option. Even now, vax rates are under 60%. With distancing, masks, and other safeguards, we didn’t have any Covid spread or clusters (going on nearly 2 years).

    I hope you are able navigate this issue without loss of your job. A religious exemption still doesn’t feel right to me but pragmatically, if that is the only option available then I don’t blame you for trying.

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