Have We Really Been Born Again?
“My most troubling thoughts are that we simply don’t actually have a regenerate church.”
One of the pillars of our community posted this and it has me thinking…the thought has crossed my mind a lot the last few years.
Before we reflect on that, let me share some personal thoughts.
I get really nervous before i teach every week, almost to the point of getting sick.
After the weekly service about all I can do is lay down with the cat and try to recover.
Why?
“Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged more strictly.”
(James 3:1 NLT-SE)
I have multiple thousands of dollars invested in software and books and classes and I am usually using them right up to the time we start the service.
I really want to get it right…”it” being what God wants to speak to my folks at that time from that passage.
That’s my job and I feel like I’m standing on holy ground when I do it.
My problem, from the beginning of my teaching ministry to now, is how little the church looks like what people who follow Jesus should look like.
In my opinion, the Sermon on the Mount is the central teaching of our sacred writings on Christian thought and behavior.
It’s the standard I strive for and the standard I uphold in our church.
I preach through the Gospels often… I want myself and my folks to be constantly engaged with Jesus.
Despite the miserable failings of their pastor, my church looks a lot like disciples who live the way they worship.
It isn’t easy for them or me …Jesus is always alternately comforting and confronting us and we wrestle together to embrace Him and His teachings.
All our energy is on trying to follow Jesus and care for each other as we are able.
That doesn’t leave much time for culture wars or politics.
I have felt the need to address all forms of idolatry, especially in regard to nationalism and politics…but only because those are the issues that caused Israel to miss her Messiah.
My greatest fear is that the church is missing Him again.
I fear that the real church looks so foreign to the current church that the current church will decide the true church is it’s enemy.
There is a lot in the culture that grieves me…there is sin in the church and in my own soul that grieves me more.
These are the things we need to discuss…the sins of the world are obvious, but judgement will start in the house of God.
Make your own application…
I taught a ton of wrong despite the fact that my fear was also teaching wrong. I’m stuck on this remnant thing now. I can’t imagine what that looks like, except I am inspired by Joel Brown. I don’t know what he preaches, but if it causes people to go do what he does, he is probably teaching right.
I only taught people that God hated them.
Creating disciples seemed to be what Jesus was about, so you are probably teaching right.
And I don’t know if I have ever been born again. I don’t even know what that means anymore.
I’m seeing now that I missed God through 12 years of supposedly preaching him. I don’t know what kind of damage that caused people. That blood is on my hands. I feel like I have to be judged for that. Maybe being broken to nothing but the clothes on my back was the punishment.
I’m rambling now. Apologies.
Reuben,
we missed because we were poorly taught.
We taught the rules to get into the club and we taught hatred toward those who weren’t.
It was a false god.
I’m fortunate that most of my people have been with me from the beginning…and I can explain where I was wrong and why.
The main thing I want them to know is the love of God in Jesus Christ…
George Barna used to worry me. His conferences were the most discouraging events conceivable. His survey results undergirded them. Basically no matter what the subject the church would survey pretty much exactly like the world on behavior but not on beliefs.
Our self reporting was damning. We divorced as often, got addicted as badly, and evidenced unbelief as thoroughly as anyone. There simply was no difference.
Then I began to see the deconstructing that led to defecting that led to sheer apostasy.
Then there is the whole issue of what is even true. I listened to Brian Zahnd and Michael Brown debate atonement. Those two are absolutely not preaching the same Gospel. At least not in any coherent sense.
Evangelicalism has had enough 9/11s that any moment the building is going to collapse. Trouble is the good guys in that story did way more evil than the bad guys.
It is a good question. Do we have an unregenerate church?
Is it I LORD?
“Is it I LORD?”
I feel the weight of that every week…not as I preach ,but as I study…examining myself even though I examine myself with much grace…
This platform has aged me as I wonder what to say to those who come here…what does Jesus have to say to the church today?
I do not want to strike the rock when I was told to speak…
Have we really been born again? Yes.
Has nothing to do with behavior. Only with gods goodness.
Josh,
I think it has a lot to do with certain behaviors.
Primarily, it deals with how we engage with other people…do we love the brethren and love our “enemies”…are we following Jesus in seeking and saving the lost or I we seeking to destroy them ?
I think the Ten Commandments still apply as well…
I believe that those who are truly born again will show signs of growth in how Scripture defines it-love of God and neighbor, obedience, joy in worship, etc. If that’s not happening, and if God isn’t disciplining like the good Father that He is (Heb. 12:4-13),I have my doubls. Over the years, I have had several Christian friends totally abandon the faith and live the way they want, totally oblivious to what God would have to say. That’s when I begin to wonder about their salvation. However, I’m not in charge of that so I’ve never accused anyone of not being a Christian. I trust the Holy Spirit to convict them, but I have been known to ask “how is your spiritual life going?” Often, these friends have told me they don’t believe any more.
Josh and Michael underscore why I don’t know if I am saved. Faith without works is dead, salvation is free but costs you your entire identity and life… It just goes on and on. There are so many qualifiers to salvation that I feel like if I have not had it personally revealed toe by God himself, I have no freaking clue what I am.
I’m banking on the prodigal son story. Son acts 100% like a jackass, Father throws him a party.
If there is any bit of it based on performance, I don’t even want it.
Reuben,
The grace part is so important. Without God’s help and grace working in our lives, we can’t do it. As we yield, He works in us and bring us closer to Himself. It’s Ephesians 2:8-10 in action. I’ve been a believer for 53 years and I’ve struggled with many things, but as I’ve looked to God for help and guidance, He has always been there for me.
He totally checked out on me for a while.
I’m sorry. I don’t want to be disrespectful to you guys and your beliefs. I shouldn’t talk about the inside issues. My apologies.
The performance isn’t about salvation…it’s about whether the presence of God in your life makes a difference and you’re willing to try to obey God…none of us do so well, but it matters to us when we don’t.
Most Christians I’ve met not only didn’t care, but used the cover for treating people poorly.
Josh ,
He appears to check out on all of us at some time…or so the circumstances would indicate.
Josh, I’m very interested. I feel like we could talk this stuff for a week or two. Keep going as long as they keep letting me post! Haha!
It has often been said, but it is nonetheless true. One can find three words as a summation of the essential teachings of Jesus: “come”, “go” and “follow”. “Come” and “go” remind me of the centurion, “a man who sat under authority who says go and come and do this” to his subordinates. He does not say “follow”. It is not said because it is not a word used between masters and servants.
In the teaching of Jesus, the words “come” and “go” are often associated with promises. “Come to me all who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.” “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations and low I am with you always even till the end of the age.”
“Follow” is much more complex. It is usually spoken as a call to discipleship, that is, a positive call to follow Christ to follow him in the way that he has set forth for each of us as individuals. Follow me, he says to some, and I will make you fishers of men. To others, the call entails selling possessions and giving to the poor. For all who heed the call to discipleship, however, the command to follow will mean self denial and the taking up of a cross.
The call to follow is not a command issued by a master to a servant, “for you were called to freedom.” The call to follow is not so much a command as it is an invitation; it has everything to do with choice. Much of the church has made the decision, the choice, not to follow… and it shows…
That’s good stuff, Duane. And I hope you are doing better!
Duane,
Thanks for that…those were the words my enfeebled brain was looking for.
The rub comes from what it means to follow Jesus.
We’ve too often defined it by what you don’t do…smoke, drink, chew, or go with girls who do.
I think that rather than those metrics, it means living a life of sacrificial love and obedience to the ethics of Jesus as told through the Gospels….even if in doing so you smoke, drink, and chew and find company that does as well.
Good conversation. I’ve rarely doubted my salvation, but have failed as a disciple more often than not.
Come. Go. Follow. I like that. Thanks Duane.
Michael,
“I think that rather than those metrics, it means living a life of sacrificial love and obedience to the ethics of Jesus as told through the Gospels…”
Yes, but it’s a choice to live that sort of life. The early church recognized that heresy, as well as apostasy, were choices. What we are seeing in the church today is the result of a choice that has been made. In my mind it is the choice not to live a life of sacrificial love and obedience. It almost has to be a choice because it is so diametrically opposed to what Jesus teaches us in the gospels. Just as heresy is the choice to set aside the rule of faith, apostasy is a choice in its setting aside of the gospels and what Jesus clearly taught. In other words, the salt has truly lost its savor and become worthless…
“Jesus clearly taught. In other words, the salt has truly lost its savor and become worthless…”
I think for 12 years of ministry, I was the “Lord Lord, did we not…(Name that service)” guy. I tried sacrificial love and obedience. I thought I was actually doing it. I should have seriously questioned if I was saved to begin with. I taught wrong, I did not hear from God, there were no lasting fruits. Like Josh said, if it was works based, making the right choice, I failed. I can’t be saved if that were the case. I turned against God as hard as I could. So I did the jackass thing too.
I feel God working in my life now, but it took losing everything. I mean everything. I have no choice but to trust God. That makes me a follower I guess, but I still don’t know. How did I get saved? If I am? Did I not continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling before? What is it that says I am in?
The only answer to that I have is that I have to live in a state of complete denial of self in order to be a disciple.
Salvation is not free. It costs you your entire life. The works are not a choice, they are an imperative. It is the marker that you are saved.
We tend to tell others how to behave,
not how to be saved.
Back to the remnant thing, it has to be marked by a state of utter self denial. The works are what make the remnant set apart. The works are only possible by a state of self annihilation. Wholly exchanged for the will and purpose of Christ Jesus.
I don’t know how to be saved, JD. I am trying to work it out. It’s not as simple as a confession and Romans Walk.
“Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.”
“ Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”
Total self denial, works. That is salvation as far as I can tell.
Sorry I haven’t been able to contribute to an important discussion.
Having read through the comments, it’s pretty clear we need to start from square one.
The first principle is that Gods primary attribute is love and all His actions are compelled by His love for His people.
The big picture is a complete re-creation of heaven and earth that will result in heaven and earth becoming one place with both humans and the created order able to flourish as originally intended.
His people are the mechanism through which He works…we are little “incarnations” sent into the world to save it and eventually be transformed into His image as the kingdom comes.
How do you get there?
You believe in Jesus.
If you believe in Him, the works will follow…
The Gospel is good news.
The gospel most of us have heard is that Jesus loves you, but He’ll also fry you if you don’t believe properly.
So…we respond out of fear instead of love.
No parent wants that…at least not a sane parent.
For someone to actually live the Christian life as we’re supposed to…with joy…we first have to settle the issue of whether we believe that we are loved.
For some of us, that’s a life long process.
“Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?”
Jesus replied, “‘You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.””
(Matthew 22:36-40 NLT-SE)
Again, the basis of the faith is love.
You are loved and called to love God and others, even your enemies.
We fail to do so often, but grace covers…
The first step to saving faith is knowing how loved you are…it’s easy to believe in someone when you know you’re loved.
The object of our faith is Jesus…not caricatures of Jesus but Jesus who is revealed in Scripture…most of us have only been exposed to caricatures of him created to further someones agenda.
Thanks Michael, I know you are busy. I guess I still don’t know if I am saved or not. I guess the point I am trying to get at is the markers are self denial and works. That seems Biblical. If you can do that, you are saved. To be a mini incarnation.
Reuben,
I have no doubt you’re in the kingdom.
The marker is love…that sometimes plays itself out in self denial and good works.
The way it’s supposed to work is that we give back to God and people what’s been given to us…because we live in such a broken world, often what’s been given to us in the name of God and love is really twisted…so that’s what we end up giving back.
“A mini incarnation”.
Exactly.
“the markers are self denial and works.”
And I’m not interested in that. That’s the guy I grew up learning about, devoted my life to, and served as sincerely as I possibly could. When my life fell apart, he checked out too. And I don’t mean he seemed absent, I mean he was absent. No show. Not a peep.
When I gave up on denying myself and performing the works that would prove I was saved, this other guy ran down the street to meet me. Wrapped me in his finest robes and threw a party for me.
I like this guy a lot better.
Do I ever deny myself? Sure. There lots of different reasons to deny myself at different times.
Do I do nice things? Yep. Probably even moreso now. I just like being nice.
But nobody is keeping score. I mean, people are keeping score and wondering if I’m really saved and all that, but the one who matters is not keeping score. He likes me. He made me.
I don’t think the Bible prescribes asceticism, though some embrace it as a spiritual practice.
Self denial is part of discipleship, part of what it means to follow Jesus.
Self denial for the sake of others, fueled by love… is part of what it means to be a Christ follower.
Again, getting into the weeds on details on these issues isn’t what I need to be doing…but 🙂
I think self-denial is misunderstood and the brand of self denial preached from the vast majority of Christian pulpits can’t be what God intended.
All decent people, (Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist) will at some point deny ourselves for the greater good. Its just one of those common, core things, that we all know is true without having to be told. Like do not murder. Natural law, I suppose. Murder was wrong long before Moses wrote it down. Self-denial was necessary for a healthy society long before Paul talked about it. We all teach our kids to share their toys, etc. This is all self-denial, not distinctly Christian, but necessary for a peaceful and positive existence.
The self-denial taught from pulpits, and somewhat rooted in the bible, is that I was born bad and have to deny myself daily to keep from spreading my evil to the the world. Everything I do and think is bad, because at my core, I am bad from the beginning.
Again, I see where this comes from the bible, but it can’t be how our creator actually thinks of us. Unless he thinks he screwed up.
Josh, that’s exactly the self denial I grew up with. I agree with all of that.
Self has always been a 4 letter word. To have it is to be a stench to God.
It is super easy to get the impression that we were created sick, and ordered with the threat of eternal punishment to be well. It’s just as Biblical. There is literally no origami required to make scripture say that.
The greatest evil I could have ever committed in my life was teaching people exactly that. Sure, it was shrouded in sky candy, offers of mansions and wings, but the threat is what mattered, because we were inherently filthy. We were born dead to God. Pure evil teaching. It ruined people’s lives.
Right. And it just doesn’t make sense. It couldn’t possibly be how a good god thinks about his creation or how he wants them feel about themselves.
Not if our understanding of the word “good” means anything.
And so, if that is the god we know, the answer is always, yeah this life sucks, but we’ll et to spend eternity with him in heaven!
Is he gonna change in heaven? Or do you have to feel awful about the very core of your being for eternity too?
Does that sound like heaven?
There really are other ways to look at those biblical texts…
The early church and many groups outside of evangelical fundamentalists affirm both that we are made in the image of God and the reality of a malevolent force . We remain image bearers despite what sin has done to not only humans ,but the whole creation.
Not really though. Because when we are answering “Have we really been born again?”, the measurements are have we denied ourselves enough, have we behaved in a certain way…
At the end of the day, no matter which group you belong to, there is always another hoop to jump through. Another commandment to keep, another level of self-denial, to be really saved.
The answers to the initial question imply that we must act good enough to born ourselves again. I for one am incapable. I tried my best.
Josh,
The title comes from my observation that much of the church is not following the ethos of Jesus Christ.
We hate each other and our perceived “enemies” and despise those on the margins of society.
We have replaced the kingdom of God with the kingdoms of men and defend them in the name of Jesus who plainly told us that His kingdom is not of this world.
It’s not a question of which works we do, it’s a question of the heart…
“The answers to the initial question imply that we must act good enough to born ourselves again.”
Boom! Yep. Works based salvation doesn’t work unless we are saving ourselves. Jesus was spotless. We are to be in such a state of self denial and works that we incarnate spotlessness. Outright impossibility. Jesus blood did nothing if it is incumbent on us to be mini-Jesus. We were saved from nothing. We just changed our life’s direction to self denial and works as the imperative gesture to gain entrance.
It gives me such a headache, but still, it has to be fleshed out. What God do I serve? Am I good enough? Will I ever be good enough? Can I call myself a disciple and do works that are of the mind of God?
Reuben is about to get me saved again. Preach it bro! 🙂
Ha!
I am about to give myself an aneurysm…
Salvation is not based on works, but on the finished work of Christ that enables us to be received as adopted children of God.
Self denial becomes second nature when led by the Spirit.
This doesn’t mean the self is evil…on the contrary, it bears the image of God.
We’re “good” enough because we’re in Christ who is the ultimate good.
Sometimes the only good work I do in a day is to be decent to the clerk at the store or people who interrupt me when I’m doing something …it’s not a life of striving to find the next thing to do.
It’s like trying out for the NFL straight out of Junior High… What an impossible thing.
I still question what salvation actually is. I don’t have anything but God to lean on. My selfish drinking took absolutely everything away. I drank till everything was gone. I have this “Obama Phone” to type this out on, and I got that for free. I trust God for the most basic things, like food. I can’t see as far as sky cake because tomorrow is the next step. I feel God. God feels nothing like the one I have known for almost 50 years.
Maybe God saved me from all that transpired from July 22, at 11:02 a.m. but I did nothing like self denial and works for that to happen.
Kevin needs to write another controversial article. My head is spinning.
Sorry, Reuben, I’ve got too much to do this weekend to be controversial, too. 🙂