Hell Freezes Over

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131 Responses

  1. Heart it, the guys were collegial and having a good time. Then I quickly switched away to Josh & G’s Drivetime Station on Pandora 😉

  2. Who’s the creepy looking guy in the middle?

    I mean, he’s probably handsome, but that picture is rough.

    Also, I just for the first time noticed the facebook, twitter, and like buttons. Has this been going on for a while ? 🙂

  3. Michael says:

    I just activated the buttons…

  4. Gotta say, the Hipster plaid, the ironic look on Don Stewart’s face, I think this is a classic “neener-neener” photo op.

    Photoshop time!
    (You just sang that to MCHammer, admit it)

  5. Bob Sweat says:

    No Hawaiian shirts? This photo isn’t real! 🙂

  6. Nonnie says:

    I was really happy to see this posted by a friend of mine on FB, who works for CCCM. I hope this will shut up some of the Smith lover/Warren haters that I know. I really like how you put it , Michael; “similar theology, but different emphasis.” Both men love The Lord and are doing what they believe God is calling them to do. I love it!!

  7. Papias says:

    Chuck and Rick look like their going to cut a tree down after the show. 🙂

  8. the problem I have with waren is he is on the council of foreign relations…….help me out here. and I’m glad someone like Paul had the nts to speak out whats wrong with the cc’s from the top on down

  9. from this corner says:

    those shirts? at least one of them looks way to upscale and pricey to do any tree cutting in it – won’t say which one 😎

  10. voigt51steve says:

    Don Stewart the forever yes man…. didn’t even need to be in this picture.. I can say if he was confornted in person alone about this he would shake his hesd yes but will back chuck no mater what.. I am really confused and wonder how long cc’s will head down the slippery slope.. You can bet one thing a major shake up in CC’s is coming.. and I just a peon sitting in the bleachers

  11. Tim (the former) says:

    Josh –
    You probably figured it out by now, but the guy in the middle is Don Stewart.

  12. Tim (the former) says:

    I’m not sure why, but I have a comment in moderation. It may have to do with the fact I changed my name…I didn’t want to be confused with the other Tim who was on the other day on the “Things I Think” thread. If it would be helpful, I could just change my name back to Doulos, which what I used to go by waaaay back in the day.

  13. Don’t know Don Stewart. I’m sure he’s not so creepy looking in real life. I just noticed the CC sweatsuit. Oh boy.

  14. ( |o )====::: says:

    If the slippery slope is toward reform and balance with less speculation about “end times”, then by all means, grease the skids!

  15. Reuben says:

    Steve Voigt,

    Exactly what kind of major shakeup in CC is coming?

    I agree a shakeup is coming, but it has nothing to do with Rick Warren.

  16. Fly on a Wall says:

    I don’t know much about Rick Warren. I guess I shouldn’t bash the guy without knowing much about him.

    He did write THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE, a decent book. Never read the whole thing, but the gist is scriptural.

    Here’s the thing: I’ve run into people who attended Saddleback, it was nearby where I lived, and they’re crazy. Sheer fanantics. Everything is about Rick Warren. AND they keep talking about the PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE, not talking about Scripture.

    Does he really warrent that kind of celebrity-dom? Should he assume the position of Apostle Paul?

    And I’ve seen TV appearances from him, and all he talks about is YOU HAVE A PURPOSE FOR YOUR LIFE, EVEN IF YOU’RE CRIPPLED, POOR, A NERD, UGLY, etc…. Ok, he’s on TV, not the Pulpit, but that’s the gist of his messages, all the time!

    Smells a lot like Emerging Church marketing. Let’s target the marginalized and make them feel like someone loves them. <—- exactly what Jesus would do BUT it was to save them and to show Jesus' heart. NOT to add numbers to his church.

    God help Rick Warren. He sure does have tons of influence. I hope he's using it for God's glory.

  17. Fly on a Wall says:

    I wonder what MLD has to say about Rick Warren? He hasn’t responded yet. 🙂

  18. steve voigt says:

    Ruben Warren is a symptom and I just heard the shake up that was will not be.. This whole thing does not pas the smell test

  19. Lutheran says:


    I think Rick’s message about having purpose in life resonates with many people. A bridge for many to consider Christ.

    Personal purpose and values, to me, are a “common grace” thing. You don’t have to be a Christian to discover that living by a set of values is, well, valuable and can help you lead a fulfilling life..

  20. Alex says:

    I tend to agree with Fly on this one…I’m personally more concerned about Warren’s celebrity and idolization than I am about his ecumenicism and “feel good” message.

    The thing that sticks out most to me in that pic is you’ve got two multi-gazillionaires and an alleged (or two) adulterer…answering questions about the bible, while ignoring clear abuses and corruption in their ranks and claiming “no responsibility, we don’t get involved in stuff, we don’t exercise control” which is lying…and ongoing lying…and lying is “an Abomination to God” “liars are doomed to eternal torment” “devil is the father of lies” etc etc.

    No thanks, I think I’ll get my bible answers from someone more qualified, like Michael Newnham or many of the fine folks on here.

  21. Alex says:

    Don Stewart should have repented and honored his commitment to his wife of 20 years. He has not repented, he is still in sin, that is if the bible is “truth” and to be taken simply. CC denies the “simple” interpretation they profess through their in-your-face actions, so really they are as Liberal as the ELCA only CC acts as Selective Fundamentalists against Gays and Women, while twisting and explaining away the “simple” “literal” meaning of Scripture to grace-over a guy like Don Stewart.

  22. Alex says:

    If Don Stewart is qualified to host a popular CC Radio Program followed by legions of Chuck-ites, then women and homosexuals are qualified as well.

    Hey I’m all for a Liberal interpretation of Scripture…at least the Liberals are more consistent and don’t claim to be Fundamentalists who interpret the stuff “simply” while contradicting themselves in practice on a ton of issues.

    I’d rather be an honest heathen than a lying hypocrite any day.

  23. we are entering a cleansing a purging period in the CC’s. Something will have to change as it do some thirty yr ago.. ove the vineyard.. Mike if you get my email on this I would love to talk to you one on one steve

  24. Chile says:

    A purging period in CC?

    What would they purge? Who would “They” be?

  25. Alex says:

    Pastor’s Perspective

    “We’re taking your calls now…”

    [Phone rings…ring…ring….]

    [In smooth Don Stewart radio voice]: “You’re on Pastor’s Perspective…what’s your question?”

    [Alex Voice]: “Hey guys, this is Alex Grenier…[background noise…Chuck Smith barely audible…’oh that f*** a****hole again]

    [Don Stewart, in Jerry Seinfeld “Newman” style]: “What’s your question….Alex”

    [Alex Voice]: “Um, what do ya’ll make of Luke 16:18 Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery? Are we to take that “simply”…or are there loopholes or something?”


    [Don Stewart]: “Next caller please!…”

  26. Anne says:

    My Pastor’s Perspective fantasy was having Smith and Warren discuss who would Jesus sue – when is it biblical for christian’s to use the courts as discussed here yesterday.

  27. Anne says:

    The only lawsuit I’m aware of Warren being involved in (doesn’t mean there aren’t more) is the attempted federal lawsuit trying to prohibit him from saying God/Jesus during the inaugural invocation. Big difference v. for $$ or covering abuse.

  28. DavidM says:

    Glad to see that The Lord is apparently whispering in the ears of a select few (voight51) about what He is going to do with an entire movement (“we are entering a cleansing, purging period”). Regardless of the Smith/Warren radio program, I always find it interesting, if not amusing, when someone has an “insight” into what God is about to do among thousands of people.

  29. Reuben says:

    Steve, the purge of Vineyard, or actually just John Wimber, and anyone who thought experiencing God was ok, was not a good thing. It was Chuck’s ignorance.

    Sure, I used to think it was brilliant that Chuck kicked them to the curb. I was a part of Vineyard as well, and experienced the “experience”. It was a bad experience. My mind has changed about a great deal of things over the years.

    The philosophy of ministry (CC and Vineyard) was essentially the same. The theology was essentially the same. The church government structure was worse with Vineyard, but it had a bad foundation to begin with, which again, was Chuck. Chuck made a stand back then, not all that different from his more recent stand, that if you were into that “experiencing God” drivel, don’t go away mad, just go away. The fact is that anything the Pope Chuck does not like, he just shrugs off as “not of us”, and CC puppets proceed to demonize it.

    Pope Chuck rubbing shoulders with the great Rick Warren is like Tony Stewart rubbing shoulders with Jeff Gordon. Who gives a crap. They all do the same thing. This is not momentous. This is not even worthy of being news. It was ODMs who demonized Rick Warren, drawing parallels with his use of Bible Translations and use of meditation to fornicating with the devil and conspiracies of Rome and Elvis-Monroe-Moon Landing-conspiracy. LHT is silliness.

  30. Lutheran says:

    ‘Who gives a crap.’

    That’s my take, too.

  31. voigt51steve says:

    Ruben you and I are on the same page… I mearly meant to convey the Vinyard is much better doctrinally that warren and if chuck was willing to put the vinyard to the curb why isn’t he doing the same with warren… I’ve been around a few yrs and the things I see are bothering me very much. And I am not alone as many cc’s pastors feel the same.. there has to be a time of seperation.I am not a gret keyboard warrior. but I can hold my own on face to face word for work. ZI hav no special insites… I am getting things first had as they are transpiraing thats all.. In the end we all must follow God’s word even if that means pulling the plug from Chuck and any cc’s that follow him

  32. voigt51steve says:

    david I am not at liberity to say now.. and ruben I have no insite as your consending apppy means but I am getting up to date info as I am posting and it goes deeper thatn you or anyone knows.. all I can say at this time is to keep chuck afnd the whole thing up in prayer

  33. DavidM says:

    voigt51, no disrespect intended, it is just that I have seen a great deal of this “insight” over the years and it is kind of offensive. It is not to say that God won’t “purge and cleanse” CC or any movement. The difficulty I have is when an individual seems to speak for an entire movement. I have been with CC for over 40 years and have seen a lot of inane crap put forth as “insight” for the movement when little of it has ever materialized. I suppose that can occur in any denomination or movement, so in that way, CC is not unique.

  34. Alex says:

    In defense of LHT, Debra Dombrowski is an ardent Child Abuse advocate and is very right on that issue and has done a lot of good in that area. She (and LHT) show more concern for the kids than does CC.

  35. Reuben says:

    if chuck was willing to put the vinyard to the curb why isn’t he doing the same with warren

    There is nothing wrong with Rick Warren, so far as Chuck or CC should be concerned. So I guess the question to you, Steve, what exactly is wrong with Rick Warren?

  36. brian says:


    I have discussed this on a few blogs and next to my universalism this would cause the nastiness and even potential violent response. Im not kidding people would get so upset. All government support should be cut and go to either the military (not the soldiers) but for armaments and new weapons and to protect profitable corporations.

  37. steve voigt says:

    @ Ruben that is the 64,000 question

  38. Michael says:


    I don’t have an email from you…were you trying to contact me?

  39. steve voigt says:

    david then you and I have a lot in common and can go back as fare as the luxury cars thing. I have supported chuck and loved him as much as anybody but this time I think he is wrong and I’m jus a peon bleacher sitter blue collar worker and if I can see it how many mre can. I knw many other calvary’s have had conerns and this will just be another to be honest I am staking a shot here but I wouldn’t be blown away if those that are just decide on their own to go on their own.JMO

  40. Fly asked earlier;
    “I wonder what MLD has to say about Rick Warren? He hasn’t responded yet.”

    I have commented on Rick Warren many times in the past. His church is less than 2 miles from mine and his influence is broad. Many in my church have fallen under his spell especially during the heavy Purpose Driven days. I have been trying to correct that in my 7 years at this Lutheran Church 😉

    I think Rick Warren is a fine person and not money hungry as Alex would depict. Several years ago he paid back his church for 25 years salary – does not take a salary from the church now and tithes back 90% of his royalties from his book sales.

    But I do have many theological differences and as I said on the other thread yesterday (or perhaps it was this morning, except for the tongues thing, his teaching is no different from that of any Calvary Chapel pastor – use the Bible as an instruction manual and teach all the Law / Command verses over the gospel.

  41. An interesting side note – about 6 months ago I ran into Rick Warren at our church one week day afternoon. I spoke with him for about 10 minutes, but he had more pressing business… he was picking up his granddaughter who goes to our pre school.

    I asked my pastor about it and he said Warren had been to a couple of the pre school programs and he proudly said – “at least I know that Rick Warren heard the gospel on those occasions.” 🙂

  42. Fly on a Wall says:

    MLD: I used to live/work in Tustin. I fell on hard times, I now live in Henderson, NV.

    I attended Newsong for five years. During my time in the OC, all I heard about was “God has a purpose for my life if I just believe…” I never read the book, it does seem scriptural, Jeremiah 29:11 come to mind, “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”

    I’m inspired by Warren’s giving, it’s a sign that he sees Jesus’ heart. I’m not saying that every pastor needs to do this, but more he sees excess materialism as useless and he’d rather give it away for treasures in heaven. A good sign!

    Maybe I’ll scrounge the few dollars to buy his book. It may cure me of my constant cynicism of anything even-jelly-filled.

  43. Fly on a Wall says:

    There is one thing that always turned me off about Warren. I hate to bring Brian into this, but he posted a YouTube of him speaking to Oprah and there was a guy with no arms/legs and he was saying, “Look at me, I’ve got no arms/legs, but I have a purpose in my life!”

    It’s kinda like Tebowing, hey… if you pray on national television, you too may become an NFL football player like me! Buy my jersey!

    There’s nothing wrong with Warren or Tebow, they’re far holier than me, but it’s how the message is portrayed. That’s what I find disturbing. What kind of message are they sending out? And the people who turn to Jesus because they want purpose in their life, or they see Tebow as a role model… will they understand the gospel was about God who came to earth to be crucified on a cross?

  44. quikstart says:

    The eminent theme bouncing around here seems to be one of accusation, judgment, slander and ecclesiastical fruit picking. Some of these comments reek and smell of pride and innuendo, assumptive guilt based solely on personal agendas and private experiences, oblivious to the fact that the window we peek through is a dark one and the reflections we think we see may indeed be distorted. Agenda driven accusations are by nature suspect and since our own hearts are deceptively wicked how in God’s name can we know truly the motivations and heart of anyone else? God forbid a worldly sinner stumble across these comments…surely they will know us by our love.

    Chuck Smith and Rick Warren are mere men, not sinless, not saints, and not any different than any of us outside of their celebrity, whether we admit it or not…. wretched creatures validated by a grace that transcends the dispersions cast here. When i attempt to express the “good news” to my secular friends it isn’t good news they think of when reflecting on their experiences with “Christians”.

    Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity is what comes to my mind…but then again if some here accepted that truth then their personal agendas and vendettas would vaporize in the bright light of love for another. If we must err and we must…Why not err on the side of love for a change. The cesspool of gossip, mudslinging and rock throwing smells to high heaven and I for one believe heaven is not pleased.

  45. brian says:

    “based solely on personal agendas and private experiences,” when all of it is boiled down and the apologetic fog is waved away this is really what most of our faith experiences rely on no offense.

    “Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity is what comes to my mind…but then again if some here accepted that truth then their personal agendas and vendettas would vaporize in the bright light of love for another. If we must err and we must…Why not err on the side of love for a change. The cesspool of gossip, mudslinging and rock throwing smells to high heaven and I for one believe heaven is not pleased.”

    In my observation neither seems to care to much that being heaven or those high up in the corporation. Yes I have a personal agenda I want all the crap that got pumped into my head could go away and your right it does smell. l

  46. quickstart,

    First, welcome.

    This community is made up of a diverse group and one key thing we have in common is that we have all been slammed and rebuked, told that we are shameful, that we should be ashamed of our thoughts that we have finally dared get the courage to speak out loud, our fears, our questions and our issues, so your comments are so very familiar and though well intended, are empty rebuke with way too much hyperspiritual religion woven in to try to stifle any of us.

    How about you come off your high horse, chill, be real and start by seeking relationships, engage in give and take, maybe even compliment someone or something?

    This place, Phoenix Preacher, is a long term place of healing, and people who are in process are not pretty because they are scarred, wounded, in pain, and coping, one day at a time. Welcome to the hospital, which is not going to be confused with anyone’s genteel country club.

    I began as I shall end, with a welcome.
    I am the most unattractive here, a universalist, an Emergent, a doubter, one who prefers Jesus and His words over any other thing in our book, so I am probably the most threatening and icky person who will now embrace you and bid you to get to know and love those who frequent the place.

    Beer, wine or Kahlua?

  47. Ixtlan says:

    @25 that was really funny….

    nice sweatshirt Don! Where can I get one of those?

    The Vineyard appears to have a much more level form of governance on their associational level than does the new CCA.

    plaid is hip?

    All that was lacking in this photo was Mark Driscoll…. But that’s only a matter of time.

  48. Fly on a Wall says:

    “Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity is what comes to my mind”

    Firstly, welcome quikstart.

    As for your quote, I think we’re pretty good at dwelling in unity at PxP. As long as you’re not embezzling money from your megachurch, you’ll be fine.

    It’s kinda amazing how there’s so many denominations here, from all over the US and beyond, yet we have very interesting, God-filled discussion. I think they’re great. I’ve never cared for Theology, but I love coming here and reading what everyone thinks from their different viewpoint.

    I think it’s the closest you can get to unity in the body. There’s so many denomination, and every one is valid. I don’t think it’s possible for all Christians to be one big ecumenical church.

  49. ( |o )====:::

    “we have in common is that we have all been slammed and rebuked, told that we are shameful, that we should be ashamed of our thoughts that we have finally dared get the courage to speak out…”

    Whoa, cowboy – watch who you include in that “ALL” – that has never been my situation at all. I have always been treated with the utmost respect and love in all my church experiences. My differences are theological

  50. Fly on a Wall says:

    “The eminent theme bouncing around here seems to be one of accusation, judgment, slander and ecclesiastical fruit picking”

    That sentence is waaaay too many points above my IQ. But in defense of PxP, that statement was meant for me and only yesterday when I told Steve his argument was stupid. Would morally challenged, not well thought out be a better phrase?

    The majority at PxP seems to be much more pleasant to deal with and very fair.

  51. voigt51steve says:

    good input 47.Ixtlan

  52. quickstart,

    ““we have in common is that we have all been slammed and rebuked, told that we are shameful, that we should be ashamed of our thoughts that we have finally dared get the courage to speak out…”

    :: CLARIFICATION :: …with the notable exception of MLD

    For the rest of us we choose to live and thrive, keeping in mind the wisdom of the generation before us,

    “Freedom is in peril
    defend it with all your might”

    “Your courage
    your cheerfulness
    your resolution
    will bring us victory”

    “Keep calm
    and carry on”

  53. ““Freedom is in peril”

    WOW – freedom is not a Christian term or thought at all. G, perhaps you have summed it up for me.

    I used to think that many were just cry babies – but I now see that your group wants freedom from Christ – but the comfort of telling others you are “in Christ.”

  54. MLD,
    You need someone to pick on today, sure it might as well be me.

    E A Db B E A Db B A B
    Hit me with your best shot Fire away

  55. Well, then you will need to explain which freedoms are in peril in the context of these discussions.

  56. No, I don’t need to explain a bloody thing.

  57. AnonForToday says:

    G, I will have to add that I have not suffered in the way so many of you have here.
    But I have seen men and women in the church treat one another with such callousness, and bitterness that it’s hard to reconcile their belief in Christ and their actions. Then I guess I have to look for grace.

    I’m here because I have made plenty of mistakes, probably hurt others too, and I want to grow and learn to walk in grace and truth more today than I did yesterday. I’m here because I love the diversity of Christians here.

    We don’t agree on much, but we agree that we are all sinners and everyone needs Jesus….We can agree that Jesus is Lord….He is the Christ, the Son of the living God…Immanuel, God with us….Jesus, name above all names…..There is no other name by which we must be saved…….I think we can all agree on that.

  58. Alex says:

    quickstart, that was a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. What a load of rhetorical nonsense.

    Basically, a fancier way of saying what I’ve heard a zillion times from those trying to spin the fact the Emperors have no Clothes.

    Like G and others said, it is the “leadership” and the church who judges those outside the church (often) and it is the “leadership” and the church who put themselves in the place of judge and jury when it comes to dealing with those who challenge them or buck their supposed “authority” (though they lie when it comes to liability and claim no authority/responsibility in many cases).

    Leadership and the church should be judging…themselves…and they don’t…but they do judge the world a lot (those evil homosexuals! etc, while gracing over adulterers and child abusers in their ranks).

    Not buying what you’re selling quickstart. I know what the bible says and it doesn’t say what you’re saying it says with regards to these issues…not in word nor in the example of Jesus and who He railed against: The hypocritical religious and political leaders of the NT days…as well as the Money Changers.

    Today’s Pharisees: “We are all 100% independent in CC! Chuck Smith is not responsible! He has no authority! He exercises no control!” (all lies btw, he has in spades over many issues and situations he just doesn’t want legal liability so he lies)

    Paul the Apostle, the bible: “so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.”

    Paul the Apostle, the bible: “Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.”

    Today’s Pharisees: “Don’t judge!”

    Paul the Apostle, the bible: “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?”

    Paul the Apostle, the bible: “Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present.”

    Paul the Apostle, the bible: “Expose the deeds of darkness” “rebuke them publicly” “warn others”

    Matthew the Apostle: “Tell it to the church (local and universal)”

    Today’s Pharisees & Money Changers: “A worker is worthy of his hire! It’s OK we hide our finances and make $100K a year to $Millions a year off of Jesus! (perks, travel, housing allowance, salary, book royalties, lucrative radio assets, Castles etc etc)…but we’re doing it for the Lord! It’s “ministry!”

    Paul the Apostle, the bible: “Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit.”

    Paul the Apostle, the bible: “In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up.”

    Jesus Christ to the Pharisees who were the Religious/Political Leaders of the NT day: “You snakes! You hypocrites! You fools!” basically, you jerks!

    Paul “judged” and Jesus Christ “judged” and we are commanded to judge things like abuse and corruption in the church by hypocritical religious leaders.

    To assert otherwise is to ignore the bible you claim is “inerrant, infallible, inspired, perfect! Word of God etc” in both word and example.

  59. Alex says:

    G said, “I am the most unattractive here…”

    I beg to differ 🙂

  60. Xenia says:

    “we have in common is that we have all been slammed and rebuked, told that we are shameful, that we should be ashamed of our thoughts that we have finally dared get the courage to speak out…”

    No G, not ALL. Some. Certainly not me.

  61. Xenia says:

    In fact, if I may be so bold to speak freely here (and have the courage to speak out), YOU, G, have slammed, rebuked and attempted to shame me more than any CC pastor ever has.

  62. Papias says:


    First of all, its nice to see you again. Your voice is valued.

    Second, I apologize if I have been slow in defending you and your contribution here. I am sorry.

  63. steve v says:

    @ Ruben.. I have missed many messages here but to answer your question what is wrong with Rick Warren.. Do I really have to answer that? He is a weeker friendly motivational speaker.. more likt the Christian tony robbins.. Did fail to mention he is on or was a member of the Council of Foreing Realtions.God will do the seprating in the end.. But When I talk to many CC pastors they have the same conderns as I so am not the long ranger…It not a time to bash and I do not intend to do so. But paul named names and called people out when needed.I have spok my opnion here and will entrust the LOrd to sort it all out. Suffice it to say some very close people in cc (costa mesa) are very concerend

  64. Xenia,
    “In fact, if I may be so bold to speak freely here (and have the courage to speak out), YOU, G, have slammed, rebuked and attempted to shame me more than any CC pastor ever has.”

    I repent.
    I was wrong to do so.
    I was unkind.

    When you can find it in your heart to forgive me, that will be pretty nice.
    Until then, no pressure.

    Please do not, from here forward, be concerned when you see me pop in. The very last thing you or anyone else should feel is unsafe because I visit or comment.

    These days my biggest project is me, and making peace with the fact that I allowed my journey to become toxic and have any ill effect on anyone else in my path.

    May your peace and quiet soul be multiplied.

  65. Xenia says:

    Oh, of course I forgive you, G. And Papias, there’s no need to forgive you at all as your presence on the PhxP has been admirable in every way.


  66. Thank you, Xenia.

  67. The Council on Foreign Relations, I remember that for some reason I am supposed to be afraid of them.

    I decided to look up the Wikipedia’s list of notable members of The Council on Foreign Relations. First entry, Roger Ailes (Chairman and CEO of Fox News)


    Ok, now I’m really confused.

  68. …Dick Cheney?
    …Newt Gingrich?
    …Rupert Murdoch?
    …Condoleezza Rice?

    I’m further confused

  69. Back to work.
    It’s less confusing

  70. Bob Sweat says:

    Thank you G!

    Comments like #63 drive me away from whatever conservatism I have “left”, no pun intended. 🙂

    I’m so sick of hearing Rick Warren get slammed!

  71. Seems to me, Bob, it would be a good thing to be a member of the CFR so as to have a voice and influence, even a comedic one in my case

  72. mrtundraman says:

    Rick Warren is the only person who could fill Chuck Smith’s shoes. That’s the solution, bring CC into the SBC via Warren.

  73. Reuben says:

    Steve Voigt, please understand, I did the anti-Warren bit for many years, as a dyed in the wool CC guy. I don’t buy these silly associations and labels created by fear-mongers like Jackie and LHT. CC hillbillies feared his success and the fact that all the people in their churches were reading HIS book.

    If Warren took over CC, I would laugh, and still not care. But you guys would hide under rocks from nothing, and that is pathetically sad and disturbing. Warren aint gonna make you worship the devil or take yoga classes. Get over Warren.

  74. Reuben says:

    I handed out the book, “Deceived On Purpose”. I wish I could take every copy of that toilet paper back. Not a shred of validity in it.

  75. Just for the record, I haven’t been slammed, rebuked, shamed or anything like that by church either.

  76. Alex says:

    Derek said, “Just for the record, I haven’t been slammed, rebuked, shamed or anything like that by church either.”

    I have, it was a bit surreal. Had the wrath of God called down on me from “glad God is on my side” Chuck Smith. It would probably have affected a mentally weaker person quite a bit. My guess was that Chuck crossed a line and God would deal with him…he got word of the cancer not long after…go figure.

  77. Alex says:

    Pastor/Prophet/Guru speaking from a big pulpit like CC Costa Mecca is a big deal. Imagine being a regular joe and hearing “that guy” say that basically you’re doing the work of the devil and that God is going to get you. It’s a pretty nasty thing to wield the power that way…but Chuck did it w/o breaking a sweat and no apology or repentance to date.

    I think Michael summed up Rick Warren well. HIs reverse tithe is better than most, he could be a hundred millionaire, instead he’s just a $10 millionaire.

    I dunno, I just don’t think any of these guys (or any of us for that matter) are doing God any favors. I think we have journeys and paths and God uses different folks to do different things and that sometimes we do bad stuff and sometimes good stuff and that the devil still does his best work inside the church and among its “leaders”…often.

    Dunno. I just don’t think any of us were to be as important as Rick and Chuck are viewed and worshipped as.

  78. erunner says:

    Is mrtundraman Doug Gilliland? If so, why has he been allowed back here?

  79. Derek,
    That is great and I’m glad you have not had to deal with it. It gives me hope that you won’t have to either. You’re probably a far wiser man than me, and you probably possess a keen sense of impulse control. 😉

    Have a great evening

  80. from this corner says:

    should we worry about the people trapped beneath the ice? or wasn’t anybody in there? is it solid enough to play hockey, yet? not a good place to drill a hole and fish, i guess 🙄

    sorry, but the original topic doesn’t grab my attention at all and i keep seeing the heading and getting these pictures in my head …

  81. I say bring back Mr Tundra Man. I rarely agree with him, but he does liven up the place. 5 yrs in exile is long enough … if he treats Michael with some respect. 😉

  82. Alex says:

    If me and Steve Wright and MLD can play nice and get along…so can Doug and Michael 🙂 (OK, maybe not 😆 )

  83. erunner says:

    There’s something wrong with this picture when Alex and Doug are allowed here while so many good people have gone their ways and no longer post here. I thought Alex was gone for good yet he’s back.

  84. Michael says:

    I lifted the ban on everybody with the reboot.
    If Doug and Jim Jr. want to in react with the community with respect and grace then I’m willing to offer it to them.
    I hope that those who have left for one reason or another choose to return as well.
    I hate giving up on anyone or being at enmity without end…we have to try and live what we claim to believe.
    It may not work…I understand that going in.

  85. erunner says:

    I’m sorry but having both Alex and Doug active here represents a huge step backwards for this blog.

  86. Can’t we all just get along? I think I will change my name to Kumbaya Man 🙂

  87. Ruben I am trying to figure out a short cut here so I can remember you reply.. I have bad hands and have to make my post short.. I have never had to get over warren as I was never into him. IMO he is just another seeker friendly guy.. I guess what had me so concerend is awhile back chuck had his own son chuck jr on pp.. now jr lost his church or was pulled off because of his emergent leaning… I have talks with sever pastors in private and just asked if I was missing something and now warren comes on.. It hurts to see the man and the fellowship I have been invloved with take such condirectory positions.. To answer one fellow her about insite I have no special discerenment but have a front row seat to some things I have never spoke about..In the end like Annianis sai if its of God you cannot stop it and if its of man it will fizzel out… my new version:) oops I think it was Gammiael that said that.. I will love Chuck and alway consider him my senior pastor but when it comes to the fork in the road I have to go where I feel the Lord has showed me.. I fully understand Chuck is not in the best of health,and age is coming upon him,along with excess weight and I sure he is very tired at times.. Yet he presses on and I appalud hime for that.. Ok I’m gon my limit and will just look in from now on…

  88. Alex says:

    Thanks Michael. I’m committed to playing nicer with the personalities of the community here. I am inspired to do so by your example.

  89. Jim Jr. says:

    “he got word of the cancer not long after…go figure.”
    That you said this leads me to believe that you believe there is a causal connection between chuck getting cancer and his disagreement with you.

  90. Alex says:

    JJ, I dunno. Chuck and many in CC are the ones who have taught and hold to a Doctrine of Divine Retribution. I just had a weird feeling when he said it, knowing his Doctrine and practice of “Touch not God’s anointed” and the stories he and others have told of how God has smitten the enemies etc in the past…and I find it ironic that he learned of the cancer a month or so later.

    I’m glad he’s in some sort of remission, I really am. I don’t wish cancer or hell or anything bad on anyone, though I’ve wished carpal tunnel on you a few times 🙂

    Btw, Chuck did more than disagree with me, he lied…a lot.

  91. Alex says:

    If Chuck and the others in CC are right about God zapping folks who are wrong and lying in these sorts of situations, then I guess I didn’t get zapped. I don’t think the Divine Retribution stuff happens today, or you’d see a lot more folks getting zapped, I think it was coincidence and I think the remission is coincidence as well.

    But, if Chuck is correct in his stated doctrine (see the CT article where he warns the reporter about getting zapped by God) then seems to me it would be telling to those that affirm that position that he seemed to have gotten zapped (as it is assumed in that Camp that when something bad happens to someone following an “attack” that it was God zapping the person who was in the wrong).

  92. Chile says:

    Glad I checked in. I see apologies made, commitments to play nice and MLD is changing his name to Kumbaya Man. This is momentous!

    Does this mean I can get an apology from MLD for minimizing and dismissing me by calling me “white noise” the other day?

  93. Chile says:

    … or does Hell really have to freeze over? 😉

  94. Nonnie says:

    I guess G and Josh need to get out their guitars….MLD wants to sing.

    Now that I think of it, wouldn’t that be a sight? 😉

  95. MLD singing Kumbaya?
    Ya, it could happen 😉

  96. PP Vet says:

    C, minimizing and dismissing each other is our love language.

  97. Chile,
    “Does this mean I can get an apology from MLD for minimizing and dismissing me by calling me “white noise” the other day?”

    I didn’t call YOU “white noise” – I used that in terms of your constant comments about CC and all the pastors who have run off with the women and the money – over and over again… we get the picture.

    Kumbaya means never having to say you are sorry. 😉

  98. Back to the erunner comments above about Alex and Doug. Doug made one comment in 5 yrs and Alex has been good lately.

    The only thing that ever bothered me about Alex’s comments were not what he said or who he was talking about – it was that he was trying to force (not persuade) everyone to agree with him and if you didn’t care as much as he cared or if you didn’t care at all you faced his fury.

    What will be interesting is after he is interviewed on that NYT related blog, will Alex dominate every thread over there, regardless of topic for the next 4 years?

  99. I have lots of issues with Rick Warren, his theology, and his methodology.

    Does that now make me bad in some way?

  100. Josh,
    You Southern Baptists just can’t get along with each other. 😉

    I disagree with Warren because of his SBC theology and methodology – what’s your beef with him?

  101. What is SBC theology and methodology?
    Just one point of each will be fine.

  102. You are right – the SBC has no theology… or at least no correct theology.

    How can you ask that? I have book shelves full of books from my 14 yrs with the SBC – commentaries, doctrine and systematic..

  103. So you disagree with everything on those bookshelves?

  104. So, MLD doesn’t believe in the deity of Christ. That’s SBC theology.

  105. Hey, the point is YOU said that you disagreed with Warrens theology (read your #101) , which is baptist theology – you made the first statement, I think you need to explain where you think he fell off the SBC rail. I think he is 100% SBC in his doctrine and theology.

  106. “So, MLD doesn’t believe in the deity of Christ. That’s SBC theology.”

    Well you don’t believe it either I guess – because that is Rick Warren’s theology and you said you don’t agree with his theology.

    I need to go to work.

  107. I’ll requote my #101 for MLD – everyone else here can A.) read, and B.) don’t care.

    “I have lots of issues with Rick Warren, his theology, and his methodology.”

    issues with Warren’s theology doesn’t equal disagree with everything Warren believes.

    MLD said:

    “I disagree with Warren because of his SBC theology”
    “You are right – the SBC has no theology… or at least no correct theology.”

    To which I say, whatever.

  108. Chile says:

    Re: MLD @99

    I seeee …. you, the one who posts prolifically and repeats your stands on several subjects over and over and over …. calls my few posts white noise because you think there is too much of a theme? Interesting answer, but MLD, you really need to get more creative that that … at least, more fair.

  109. Chile says:

    … and though you say you “get the picture”, MLD, judging by your summarization of what you think I’ve been saying, me thinks you do not. I think you are missing the point.

  110. Ixtlan says:

    Sounds like somebody does know much about Southern Baptist history or their theology. Warren does not strike me as a typical Southern Baptist…..

  111. Ixtlan says:

    and I guess I don’t know how to proofread. Make that doesn’t know much about Southern Baptist History or their theology…..

  112. Ixtlan,
    I know that you went to Cal Baptist and had some classes with Rick Warren. I spent last night reading the Baptist Faith & Message (1971) (the whole thing)

    For the life of me, I cannot find a single point that Rick Warren would disagree with or would not teach in his church.

    As to a “typical” Southern Baptist I guess I don’t know what that is anymore – I haven’t been in a Baptist church in a while – my experience was 1983 – 1996. (but if you mean that he is not a mean SOB like WA Criswell. I agree.

  113. Josh,
    Your #109 – quite the job of selective quotation.

    My point was that you become what you hate – you hate Warren and it shows.

  114. Chile,
    What can I say – I am horrified and sorry that the CC pastors you ran into during your life have turned you into a broken person.

  115. PP Vet says:


  116. Alex says:

    MLD said, “have turned you into a broken person.”

    Disagree, I think we’re all “broken” to some degree or another and folks like Chile are simply dealing with the set of circumstances they’ve endured and witnessed in one of a variety of healthy (and normal) manners.

    Usually Denial is the least healthy manner in which to process such things…though Denial and Delusion are the opiates of the masses with regards to many things…and our politicians and religious Leaders tend to thrive on the weak who are easier to manipulate and control.

  117. Alex says:

    I want to alert the Moderators that what MLD said above is a “trigger” and the result of calling Chile a “broken” person in a pejorative way engenders a negative response and takes things down a bad path.

    If the goal here is “change” then I would encourage you that MLD’s recent post re: a member of our Group should be noted and I am asking MLD to refrain from that sort of rhetoric as addressed to a specific person in the Group.

    If it’s OK, then I’ll respond in a similar manner and back we go to the “who’s a bigger a-hole”…and I always tend to win that contest 🙂

  118. PP Vet says:


  119. Jim Jr. says:

    I don’t Think i Agree with that Assessment

  120. I originally said up at #99 that I got her point “comments about CC and all the pastors who have run off with the women and the money…”

    She said forcefully that I did not understand – so I said that I was horrified and sorry for her present condition.

    Big deal.

  121. from this corner says:

    MLD is wrong … too tired to figure out who’s right this morning, but you don’t declare someone a broken person to their face and in public 😀

    that said, perhaps it depends on what broken means… some of us beg God to break us … well, not us, but the stuff that hangs on us that needs breaking off at least …

    sitting here waiting for my potential buyer and her home inspector to arrive – hoping that she isn’t expecting to bring her whole (nice) Walmart entourage and turn them loose here … my realtor’s advice was “just lock up what’s important to you” … say what? that’s a lot of drawers and cupboards

  122. from this corner says:

    post script – should have said that, for me, it’s a privacy issue – i’m not worried about them stealing stuff … yikes? is that pride? pondering

  123. PP Vet says:

    Double (as in bowling)

  124. from this corner says:

    reading the thread this a.m. brought to mind something that the Southern Baptist pastor told us when we were considering joining a Kansas church … he said that all the S.B. (1961) churches are independent in their governing policies, including some that held closed communion … sounds like a blending of C.C.s and Lutes 😆
    course they all held to full immersion baptisms, hence my double submissions – double standard?
    i’ll quit now … but to tell the truth, it’s easier to sit here and type than it is to read 🙄

    love those emoticon things, which i understand are very naive and passe, which is strange as they are so useful – resisting the temptation to pontificate on all the useful stuff that is now passe

    God keep

  125. from this corner says:

    speaking of turkeys and bowling – as PP Vet is doing _ didn’t i hear somewhere that they bowl **with** turkeys (frozen ones)?

  126. mrtundraman says:

    I don’t have any particular problem with Rick Warren. His methodology was to identify the need and meet it. His plan was to create an anonymous mega-church in Southern OC where people could choose to get more involved if they wish. Houses were being built on the hillsides by the thousands and many of these new people needed a new church.

    The problem I’ve had with it is how people take his model and try to transplant the same model based on a very specific demographic into their own rural area, for instance. Saddleback Sally and Saddleback Sam (or whatever he named them) doesn’t work well in a country church where you have to deal with old and young, rich and poor, healthy and sick. When you are in a new community mostly made of yuppies you have a blank slate that most “legacy” churches don’t have.

  127. Chile says:

    MLD, that is uncalled for. You may have a habit of not acknowledging when you cross the line and think it your right to proceed as a bully, but you shouldn’t. It speaks to your character.

    Demeaning one because you view their opinions as that of a “broken” person, makes you shallow and lacking in love. If you truly think I’m speaking from a place of hurt, then your labeling me in a demeaning way is horrendous.

    It’s one thing to banter back and forth with some snark and a focus on a specific topic that the parties involved agree to dissect -something I can handle to a greater degree than quite a few others- but it’s another thing to attack one’s personhood because you don’t like their point of view.

    I still enjoy thoroughly your discussions on infant baptism, end times, the Gospel being central to all sermons and more (even with some snark,) because it helps to add those sides to the conversation. But while you are a broken record on those topics, I do not show disdain towards you as a person calling you “white noise”, even though you state those same opinions regularly without fail, far far more than I ever have stated my opinions. Do you not see your double standard?

    Nor have I pointed out your “broken” tendencies in your consistent bullying tactics at going for the jugular when others back you into a corner. When one is characterized by such actions, that shows the heart of a truly b-r-o-k-e-n person who needs to lash out to protect themselves. I have noticed this and actually care about what drives such behavior in you; but I have not demeaned you because of it.

    For once, would you respond with a sincere apology minus the attacks. Show me there is really a Christian under your tough man exterior.

  128. Chile,

    Your comment was the last on a thread with a 7 hour gap between comments – I missed it.

    I apologize for my broken comment.

  129. Chile says:

    Thank you.

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