How Bad Is It?

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175 Responses

  1. Jean says:


    I want to gently distinguish one statement. Before the pandemic there were IMV two economies. In one economy, the one for certain fields (e.g., finance, technology, health care), the economy was excellent. In the other economy, the one for miners, factory workers, hospitality industry workers and other similar laborers, the economy was tough; people were living paycheck-to-paycheck, struggling to pay for health care and housing, not saving for retirement and carrying credit card and other debts.

    The pandemic has only magnified these two economies. The economy for served by the wealthiest 10% is widening its gap over the bottom 90%. However, it is the economy for the 90%, which was not great at all before the pandemic, is now falling apart for millions of Americans.

    You’re right, no one is really talking about the un- and under-employed who are in businesses and industries that either are not coming back or will be coming back in a much leaner form. Either no one is talking about this, or the people in the know are not being honest with the American people.

    There have been some fiscal measures to support people in need temporarily, but much of that is expired or expiring. What then? I hear politicians talk about motivating people to return to work, but there has been tremendous job destruction, so even a highly motivated worker, if in a damaged industry, may have no job to go back to.

  2. Michael says:


    Economically, we’re in over our heads and frankly, I’m terrified when I think about it.
    My point is that I think we’re past the point of working political solutions and only God can bring the wisdom and will to address our crises.

  3. filbertz says:

    I am ‘amen-ing’ your post in its entirety. Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit says the Lord.

  4. prodinov says:

    I live in Kenosha, my apt windows look out over the Carnage on Sheridan, 2 blocks from the shooting last night and 1 block from the Courthouse. There remains a small grouping of rioters, most if not all from outside the area. Watching live feeds from a local, and keeping tabs considering we have 2 children, we are connected and what we are seeing is total fear and chaos that could easily be attributed to 25-50 individuals. (The media is exploiting this therefore what you see and read are not necessarily the full picture). A county of 100,000 that are in total fear from 25-50. What do you think is coming at election time? Within 100 yards of my place are 6 churches, most dating back over 100 years. Methodist. Catholic. Non-Denominational (they purchased the old building), Universalist, ELCA, Episcopalian. They had crews out yesterday putting boards up on all windows street level. It is crazy. So how bad is it? Bad. If it can happen in this small township, it can happen anywhere and probably will. Being so close and hearing the noise/chatter throughout the night, I remain at peace, no magic bullets, no prayers that are unusually strong (most are unusually weak minded), but to think that I walk these streets, I ride bikes with my boy, I walk to the library, all within 2 blocks and to see the eyes of fear in people. That is what terrifies me. Multiple the 25-50 in 40-50 cities, the nation could fall based on 2000-3000 demonic people bent on destroying democracy. I say Demonic because when you watch for hours the few groupings of people that curse, taunt, spit, threaten the police, this is not done by normal people. There is a force that comes from the realms of the spiritual world ready to devour our faith, our trust, and to implant a fear that makes us distant from He whom gives us comfort. Making it short-sorry-there is talk on the police scanner today that certain people are filling up gas cans to bring into Kenosha tonight. 3-5 cars. If so, the damage done by such a small group is what we should all worry about….we spend trillions fighting wars with the highest caliber of weapons, and yet we subject ourselves to a force that is roiling our faith. Remember when you see these forces knee with their hands up in the air, “Don’t Shoot” Don’t Shoot”, this ploy is nothing more than to have police take down their guards and/or for the media to talk about how peaceful they are. Tell that to those in Israel if a suicide bomber is approaching ready to take out hundreds, yelling “Don’t Shoot” “Don’t Shoot”. The demons are on the prowl.

  5. Michael says:


    Thank you, my friend…now to convince the rest…

  6. Babylon's Dread says:

    The question is proper… How bad is it?

    I think it is irretrievable. Unfortunately I think words no longer work and that is why violence is in our streets. I am more concerned about the embedded powers ignoring of that violence in hope of co-opting power from it. When Ferguson MO broke out in violence and POTUS signaled that it was justified. Now that virus has taken root. Our lawmakers are lying and will only be appeased by changing administration. When that happens they will soon, very soon be outflanked by the left.

    Language is the only veil that precludes violence and it only works when it is morally backed. When it fails power is the only antidote.

    We in America have foolishly allowed totalitarian politics to wed with capitalist economic power and the looming struggle is rather hopeless. The beast rides the prostitute to great effect. The church will not defeat this power it must self-devour under judgment. The church survives in such eras.

    I have two questions;

    Jean, how do you see the church as being a hope in this hour. I hear nothing good about the church anywhere from anyone. So what church, where and how?

    Michael, how do you get an economy without this tiered outcome? Neither capitalism nor marxism has provided it and while I would advocate the former over the latter it is not without perils. Unchecked wealth is no more salutary than unchecked state power.

    I would actually argue that before covid all sectors were faring better than now. Covid like the previous mortgage bubble has only served to transfer wealth to the wealthy. What solutions?

    How bad is it? Worse than we have even fathomed.

  7. Em says:

    Praying for your family from here, Prodinov…. 🙏

  8. Michael says:


    I think you have pointed out something very important.
    It’s a very small number of people keeping a very large number of people in fear.
    Why we don’t address the lawlessness of that few is beyond me.

  9. Em says:

    Not addressing the lawlessness? Could it be because only bullets will stop them? Not words? Dunno…, but frightening and sobering times

  10. Michael says:


    I think you reversed who you are directing your questions to.
    I’ll address the church.
    There is a remnant…and if a large part will publicly disavow political influence and lead in seeking the Lord…that is this countries only hope.

  11. Babylon's Dread says:


    If the police stop them the left will demonize the police. We are already at war. We are already praying for a strongman to bind the enemy. God help us…

    I wonder if a thousand unarmed nonviolent believers could take to the streets and stop this… but they must be willing do die and we’d normally rather kill than die.

    Thank you for this report. I am off social media or I would spread it everywhere.

  12. Babylon's Dread says:


    I did — correction welcomed

  13. directambiguity says:

    Babylon’s Dread,

    We are in a Housing and stock market bubble now. I think a depression is coming.

  14. Michael says:

    “I wonder if a thousand unarmed nonviolent believers could take to the streets and stop this… but they must be willing do die and we’d normally rather kill than die.”

    I think you’re on to something.

    When Antifa came calling here last week, they were greeted by the community…and they knew they did not dare get out of line.

  15. Michael says:


    You are one of the most brilliant minds I’ve encountered, a man of the Spirit.
    Will God not show men and women like you a way forward in the Spirit of God?

  16. prodinov says:

    Babylon, many of the businesses have owners/supporters/ with high caliber weapons protecting their turf. Last night, one such business 1 block from the shooting had 4 men on the roof ready to fire if rioters approached. News feeds have not established, but the deaths of the 2 last night was said to have been from what the media calls vigilantes. Not even….these are people protecting their property. Unfortunately Wisconsin is a State that fails to recognize those rights. Will be interesting to see what happens tonight and the next few, because more locals are weaponizing up and ready to defend themselves. My place has 12 units. One of the residents is a former 30 year veteran of the police force….should a group attempt to break down the secured entry door, this guy has multiple weapons loaded and ready to use. So, there is hope, but unfortunately, our country has already gotten to a point that fear is the underlying emotion and that is why we are all concerned and know that “bad” is “bad”.

  17. Babylon's Dread says:


    Surely He will.

  18. Michael says:


    We’ll keep you and your family in prayer.
    I thought my town might be ground zero for the pushback against the violence…sadly, it might be yours.

  19. JoelG says:

    “You are one of the most brilliant minds I’ve encountered”

    No argument from BD

  20. JoelG says:

    Good grief turn off the news and live in your circle.

  21. directambiguity says:

    Trump is sending in National Guard and Federal law enforcement. That should settle things down.

  22. Michael says:


    If I had my way I’d just hole up with the cats and play Words With Friends.
    However…I’m a pastor and I’ve never seen the kind of depression and anxiety everywhere we see today.
    The first thing I tell people is to turn off the news…but that’s not enough.

  23. JoelG says:

    Okay. I deal better in particulars than abstraction. There’s not much I can do about what’s “out there”. But I can only focus on what’s “at hand.”

    Yes I know EO think I’m a heretic but it’s still good advice.

    I’m going to take my own advice and leave you alone to do your job. I appreciate all the helpful words over the years. But for my own sanity I’m going to shrink my world.

    Thank you Michael

  24. Michael says:


    You help me do my job better.
    I understand if you need to go, but you’re always welcome here.

  25. Bride of Christ says:

    My 93 year-old-father and my brother live in Wisconsin. They are constantly telling me that I need to leave California because our state is becoming too dangerous to live in due to homelessness, fires, overcrowding, etc. Yet it seems no place is safe any longer in the U.S. My family goes back generations in this area of the midwest as my family still owns Jackson island in the Mississippi river which was purchased in the 1800s. This is America’s heartland and my heart breaks for the residents who are living in the midst of this turmoil. We truly all are interconnected, and yet we have never been more divided it seems. I will be praying .

  26. Babylon's Dread says:


    “No argument from BD”

    Crumb-snatcher Dread

  27. Michael says:

    Bride of Christ,

    I do not recall this kind of division ever…and we have to find ways to overcome it.
    It starts with prayer.

  28. Xenia says:

    I had to leave that Zoom group I mentioned a while back. They have left off discussing gardening and are now wanting to discuss ways we can support Black Lives Matter. These are upper class educated white women who are so full of self-loathing that I’m surprised they don’t spontaneously combust.

  29. Michael says:


    I think on of the great PR campaigns of our time has been to hide the beliefs of the BLM organization to the degree that not supporting it seems racist.

  30. Babylon's Dread says:


    This is the world I shrunk to … no social media no other blogs… preaching and PP

    Lean and Mean Dread

  31. Michael says:


    Thank you…and if you need a place to park written thoughts…you’re always welcome to write here.

  32. Bride of Christ says:

    My brother’s next door neighbor in Wisconsin passed away two years ago and an auction was held in his property while we were visiting there. Over 200 guns were auctioned off, all owned by this one elderly man. I think most people there own at least one shotgun in Wisconsin. Folks here in California don’t seem to own so many guns. I wonder, are all those guns floating around changing the dynamics of the protests? Are they making people there safer? Or not?

  33. Bride of Christ says:

    Xenia, Just another perspective on supporting BLM. I have a dear, close friend who has a husband that recently fell at age 64 and became paralyzed with a neck injury. They moved to Chicago to go to the Shirley Ryan Spinal cord rehabilitation clinic. She says many of the medical attendants there that care for her husband’s needs are African American . She calls them ” angels” ,and she has personally asked them how she, as an upper class white woman, can help support Black Lives Matter. Many important essential workers who are vital to our country ‘s well-being are minorities and people of color. Why shouldn’t we support them? I don’t think it is evidence of “self-loathing”_ but a recognition of how interconnected we all are.

  34. Michael says:

    Bride of Christ,

    I think we’re all opposed to racism in any form.
    I’m also opposed to Marxism and the destruction of the family…two pillars of the official BLM organization.

  35. Xenia says:

    Bride of Christ,

    BLM is a Marxist terrorist organization that is run by sexual perverts. I am sure the wonderful people who help your friend’s husband would not be in agreement with most of what they preach. Dislike of BLM does not equal dislike of black people. In my town which has a very large African American population, the black churches do not support BLM.

  36. Xenia says:

    From the BLM About/What We Believe page:

    We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

    We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).

  37. Xenia says:

    The thing is, after years of indoctrination from the liberal media and liberal universities, most younger Americans are ready to believe we should dismantle the nuclear family and embrace a queer-affirming network. The groundwork has been laid, with Hollywood playing a leading role.

  38. Xenia says:

    By “Hollywood” I mean the entire entertainment industry which includes music, movies and television, including Netflix and the whole evil empire.

    Which most Christians refuse to give up, claiming “It’s just entertainment.”

  39. Bride of Christ says: ‘Politifact/ Blacklives Matter a Marxists Movement?’says this, Black Lives Matter has broad support and not everyone identified as a Marxists. According to this article SOME of the founders identified as Marxists. It also states that the organization is rapidly evolving and changing. My Harvard educated son-in-house -law is half African American with a Black father. His sister is a tenured professor at an American public university I plan to call my daughter today and see what this highly educated young man and his equally educated sister know about Black Lives Matter. I will definitely let you know how they feel. He comes from a strict Seventh Day
    Adventist Christian family, and they are church going people and they don’t drink at all. We had to order non alcoholic champagne for their wedding two years ago!

  40. Babylon's Dread says:


    I am in agreement with your posts… this is the culture into which the Gospel was sent in the first century we are back to our beginning

  41. Babylon's Dread says:

    I would no more support BLM the organization than I would throw my child in pit of vipers for babysitting.

  42. Michael says:

    Thoughts I posted on Facebook…

    Spurgeon said that we should never speak of hell without tears in our eyes…I would say the same should apply to speaking of civil war…we have to be better than this…

  43. Michael says:

    Yes, human life is more valuable than property. However, property often represents lives poured into creating and sustaining life for the owners and the community…wanton destruction of property is the destruction of lives, hope, and community…

  44. CM says:


    But this time around the Christians want to use the levers of political and earthly power to change and transform the culture. And this is why it is doomed to fail.

  45. CM says:

    The failure to stop same-sex marriage and abortion in the US are exhibits A and B that prove this.

  46. Babylon's Dread says:


    This time around?

    The levers of power are only available after a consensus has been reached. We are trending far from a Christian consensus over marriage or birth so … once again… I have not asserted any such thing. Nor do I think it is within reach.

    People must reap the whirlwind before they ask for help.

  47. Em says:

    Question … Are slogans and our walk as Christians compatible?
    Of course people of various skin hues all matter. But…
    When you reference BLM (not the Bureau of Land Management 😏) you are referring to a slogan/organization that has been hijacked. It hides people planning to destroy this Republic. Yes the organization matters and we’d better stay heads up! ! ! IMHO

  48. Jean says:

    What’s better people who hide their plans or a POTUS that openly tries to destroy this Republic?

  49. Jim says:

    I understand that most, like Jean are focused on jobs. I guess I’m blessed by genetics and environment, but all I see is opportunity. I started my last business, which is still thriving, in Q4 2007. I just started another one in a completely different market.

    My neighbors are hanging around the pool, and when I suggest that NOW is an excellent time to learn a new skill set, they say things like, “yeah, I’ve been thinking about learning guitar”. Learn to code has become a meme with negative connotations, but really, learn to code.

    Making money is a simple equation-find a need and fill it.

  50. prodinov says:

    Update for Kenosha. At approx 3 pm, a caravan of approx 20 vans/trailers/etc parked out front of our building. Tarps covering everything. Antifa has arrived. They are mainly from California and Washington (d/n see Oregon). This is a bad bad group. Curfew has been moved up to 7 pm until Sunday. Supposedly we have 500 more National Guard troops arriving. This group out front has about 60 members as I can count. (I did offer water-they graciously accepted-hopefully our building remains off limits.) But they are actually putting body armor on. So…Kenosha might not be as peaceful as I was expecting tonight. We might become the battle ground. When it gets dark, this group will cause trouble, weapons, explosives, anything to divide. The guy that seems to do the best live feeds on the ground is via facebook, Mercado Media as he follows the minute to minute going ons here in Kenosha. But earlier today, aside from this group out front, there are lots of vans circulating with out of state license plates. If evil money supports these groups, then they are here to make Kenosha a hotspot, worse than Portland I fear. So….maybe if I improve my prayers, we can remain safe….thank goodness for Phoenix having his weekend prayers so if I fail at words, I can pull some of the wonderful prayers from the Church Fathers.

  51. Xenia says:

    May God have mercy on you, your family, your neighborhood and your town, prodinov.

    Giving a cup of water… that was a good thing to do, even if it doesn’t protect your building.

    God bless you and keep you safe!


  52. Michael says:



  53. Bride of Christ says:

    Em, ‘What Would Jesus Do” – WWJD – is a slogan that still inspires and guides my life after 45 years of being g a Christian. “Black Lives Matter” is a positive, life -affirming slogan. I taught in San Diego public schools for over 30 years in schools that were 65% minority children – Pacific Islanders, Hispanics, and African American mostly. I loved and nurtured them all as they all mattered to me as precious children of God. I don’t want to see the police defunded but I do believe that there is racial bias and discrimination in the U.S. God willing, I will someday have a grandchild of mixed race as my architect son-in-law is half Hispanic and half African American and my daughter is of Swedish descent. She graduated from UCLA after being awarded a n academic based merit scholarship from the University. She was hired by an international firm that sent her to live in New York City, LA, San Francisco and even to Hong Kong for 6 months. Even the Calvary Chapel she attended for her entire childhood was 60% Latino. Her class mates, her church friends, her UCLA friends and her co-workers are from a variety of different races. We raised her to be color blind, and I believe most young Americans today like my daughter, will not tolerate racism. I think this is why over 50% of Americans support Black Lives Matter to some degree. There are militant groups involved in BLM, I am sure, but there are also white supremacist groups among today’s Republican Party and many evangelicals still support the Republican party. We Christians have one foot in the world and one foot in heaven which makes things pretty complicated. We are both citizens of Heaven and American citizens.

  54. Xenia says:

    The sentence “black lives matter” is certainly a true sentence.

    The organization, whose aims are clearly stated on their web site and is clearly demonstrated by their actions, is incompatible with Christianity.

    Don’t conflate the sentence and the organization, which is exactly what they want you to do.

  55. Jean says:

    For some reason, every time a black person is murdered in cold blood by the police, and the protests become riots, then what we are told is “BLM ” or “Antifa.” But who is talking about the white racists who are actually infiltrating the demonstrations and using the demonstrations to perpetrate murder and race war?

    Who is talking about Kyle Rittenhouse? Why was he allowed by the police to just drive away last night?

    I think white America needs to look a litter closer at what is actually happening. And ask yourself this? If my unarmed son was shot 7 times in the back at point blank range, in front of his wife and children, how would you feel. How would you feel about the police and your government?

  56. Michael says:

    Bride of Christ,

    The slogan and the desire behind it is positive and true.
    I affirm with you that we have huge racial issues in this country and this may be an opportunity to address them in a meaningful way.
    There are also those who are taking this as an opportunity to change things through chaos and anarchy…which I cannot and will not affirm.
    We have created a terrible mess and I don’t see a way out…

  57. Xenia says:

    Jean, I know my first impulse would not be to burn down my city.

    How about you?

  58. Jean says:

    All kinds of vile things are professed by all kinds of people in America. But who is actually shooting people? I am not aware of a single charge of gun violence by anyone associated with BLM. On the other hand, I am aware of several cases of gun violence or using a vehicle to run over people attributed to right wing and racist people.

  59. Michael says:


    My attitude is colored by what almost happened in my city and what prodinov is going through.
    I don’t see how positive change can come through this…but it’s clear that it will birth more violence.

  60. Jean says:


    I can’t say for sure, but when I hear of these stories I cannot deny that if I was in the shoes of a father or brother or son of one of these victims, I could see myself capable of the very worst instincts of man. I cannot fathom a police man shooting an unarmed white person 7 times in the back at point bank range. I can’t fathom a police man kneeling for 8 minutes on the neck of a handcuffed white man. They treat black people like worthless animals with no human dignity. I cannot say that I would regard them as human beings if I was of the black race. Just being honest.

  61. Bride of Christ says:

    My daughter’s wedding was three day affair as the couple rented a grand house in the Mountains with a stunning view for three days with pools, a guest house, green house, antique barn and an entire hillside filled with horses, donkeys, and llamas. There were two caretakers who lived on the property – a Hispanic man, and a native Hawaiian gardener. They told us that the 150 peop!e who attended the wedding were the nicest people that had ever held a wedding on their mountain. my daughter had 12 bridesmaids – two were Black, one was from India, one was from the Philippines, two were Asian and two were hispanic. Her wedding cake was baked and delivered by a high school church friend born with only one arm.Their wedding party was made up of a group of accomplished, beautiful young people from all over the world. I was washing dishes with the staff preparing for the wedding and I guess I shocked them by doing that! That weekend on the mountaintop felt like heaven with all of God’s children celebrating a wedding in beautiful harmony. If only we all could live in such beautiful harmony.

  62. Xenia says:

    Jean, that’s an honest answer for sure.

    I understand anger. But I have no sympathy for the groups of anarchists that have co opted the situation for their own nefarious purposes.

    If you are on Twitter, watch the on-the-spot videos of Andrew Ng.

  63. Xenia says:


    If only we all could live in such beautiful harmony.<<<

    We won't see this until heaven.

    And it is not the goal of BLM, which is to cause division and anarchy.

  64. CM says:


    But you do realize that prodinov was either completely wrong about the circumstances of the 2 people getting shot (and the implication of who did it) or was deliberately misrepresenting the facts of the shooting of the 3 people (2 fatally)? What is worse, it turns out Rittenhouse was known by the police and he was a member the local police junior cadet program. So you have an alt-right cop groupie and wannabee get his hands on an AR-15 (which he could not get legally on his own) cross state lines hang out with the militia types in Kenosha during the riots, get attaboys from the Kenosha PD, start killing people in cold blood, and then was allowed to leave with no response from the Kenosha PD. Sound about right?

    prodinov: I am officially calling bulls*it on your earlier post regarding the 2 people shout fatally. Maybe members of the Not F*cking Around Coalition (NFAC) will show up and exercise their 2nd Amendment rights as a bunch of blacks openly carrying AR-15s like did in Stone Mountain in July. Unless of course you think the 2A only applies to whites and you can’t have those uppity blacks have those rights?

  65. Jean says:


    I agree with your 100%.

    I think black men have a duty under God to form their own armed militia to protect their own people, as long as the white judicial and law enforcement structures fail to do so. Just my opinion.

  66. prodinov says:

    Actually CM, the live feed from last night indicated it was “business” owners who shot….so more information was forth coming….the difficulty with live feeds, the dark night, and still the unknown. Either way, it is 6 at night, darkness comes in 2 1/2 hours, and we already have a gathering of hundreds 3 blocks away. Furthermore, if you review the Kenosha Police feeds, it seems that there are statements now being made that the police knew in advance there were gun toting white militias so that the police could drive the protesters/rioters toward that group. It is factual? Hard to say. But here is a fact…my children exhibit signs of fatigue and stress. There are some outward signs that indicate this is impacting them. That concerns me….but either way…I am at the epicenter and if you care to have more updates, this could become a war zone tonight for the purposes of evil.

  67. CM says:

    That is what the NFAC is all about. Of course all the usual Trump leg-humping supporters will whine and b*tch like little girls when they do show up. I guess they can’t stand the fact that blacks are exercising the same 2A rights under the Constitution like everybody else and obviously don’t want them to get too uppity (makes it tougher for them to be bullies I guess).

  68. Michael says:

    Ok, this is getting out of hand.
    Violence simply begets violence and if we have much more from either side we’ll going to lose a lot of people.

    I do not believe prodinov was intentionally misleading anyone…I know how hard it is even in a small town like I live in to know exactly who is doing what.

  69. Michael says:

    If we can’t deal with each other as Christian family, this thread will close without further warning.

  70. CM says:


    The fact that Kenosha PD drove those rioters and protesters TOWARDS the militia group shows they are complicit in the violence and are allied with the militias. This violates the cardinal rule of demonstrations and riot control where you keep antagonistic groups SEPARATED. If confirmed, the Kenosha PD will be in a whole world of hurt and rightfully so.

    IF I was the governor, I would remove the Kenosha PD from riot control duty completely and use WI National Guard, WI State Police, and whatever county LEO agencies to do it. Kenosha PD can cover the parts of the city far removed from the disturbances.

  71. Dan from Georgia says:

    My comment will probably be passed over in this discussion at hand because it has nothing to do with BLM etc etc. Last week I made the fateful decision to engage someone online…they were posting conspiracy stuff on a Christian website then complained that their posts were being moderated and then proceeded to slam to website hosts.

    So….I challenged them. I didn’t attack them. They proceeded to post multiple posts calling me everything a person could be called on a blog without being censored.

    So of course this is typical online behavior of many on the net, I know that. What floors me is that people professing to be believers are so vile in their relations with others. Basic Christian decency is tossed out the window and the fruit of the spirit is mocked.

    I just mention all this to illustrate just how bad it is today. I rarely confront people online or in person and this is a big reason why. Many operate with no conscience or sense of what the right thing to do is.

    Lastly, I was offended a bit, but overall felt more sorrow and a bit incredulous the disparity between a profession of faith and the fruit of their life.

  72. Michael says:

    “Basic Christian decency is tossed out the window and the fruit of the spirit is mocked.”

    Dan, that is eating me up as well…especially the mockery of Christian ethics…

  73. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I agree with Jean – all men (people) have the right to form their own protection militias to protect their families and neighbors.

    But you know, this may be bad but not unusual. During an 18 month period over 1969 / 70 there were 2,800 bombings by militant groups. History tells it all – the same claims of deep state coverup – the release of the Pentagon Papers etc. The Black Panthers were more militant than BLM and much better armed.

    The church in relation to government – no different – Billy Graham was the Falwell, Jeffress, Franklin Graham of his day. He was so closely aligned with presidents (especially Nixon) that you would think they were mating..
    His continual antisemitic remarks to “join in” the crowd were dastardly — and he denied them for over 20 years.

    It’s all the same dance through history.

  74. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks Michael. It’s all made worse when the individual doing the mocking and abusive behaviors is a professed believer. Of course that is something I don’t have to convince you of. Peace of Christ to all here.

  75. Xenia says:


    IF I was the governor, I would remove the Kenosha PD from riot control duty completely and use WI National Guard, WI State Police, and whatever county LEO agencies to do it. Kenosha PD can cover the parts of the city far removed from the disturbances.<<<<

    I think you are right about this.

  76. CM says:

    For all those people who complain that the Democrats don’t denounce the rioting and arson, perhaps we can ask them if they will denounce Trump supporter and shooter Kyle Rittenhouse?

    Unless they wish to parrot what Trump said about “Good people on both sides.”

  77. Xenia says:

    Things have gotten so serious that Steve W. and MLD have returned to the blog!

    And I am glad to see them both.

  78. Michael says:

    I’m going to say this one last time.
    This will not be a forum for partisan pissing matches .
    Do not test me…

  79. CM says:

    Who knows, maybe if Rittenhouse is able to post bond, maybe he can make it in time to be a guest speaker at the GOP convention on Thursday. /sarc

  80. CM says:


    I will stop. My last comment and your crossed in cyberspace.

  81. Jim says:

    Doggonit, CM was so close to changing the minds of the 100’s of Trump lovers who post here.

  82. Michael says:

    Does anyone have any spiritual observations or theological principles from Scripture or history to help us through this?

  83. prodinov says:

    I wish i did considering I thought tonight was going to be calm….since I received minor criticisms, I am following tonite live stream. , this is one group by a black videographer following them as they head to the courthouse. CJ and Mercado were at the Courthouse and heading to find the group to film. There are 4 Videographers do live tonight….they are saying it could get ugly….so yes….prayers are needed….

  84. Bride of Christ says:

    I just wanted to add…I did finally get a call back from my daughter who was too busy at work to return my call right away. Her husband is half black half Latino and a Harvard educated architect, also a seventh Day Adventist Christian. His sister is a tenured English Literature Professor at the University of Arkansas in Fayetteville, and also Seventh Day Adventist Christian. They all live witinin one mile of each other and see each other every week. They told me that there is a lot of disinformation on the internet in order to discredit the Black Lives Matter Movement. They donate money to the organization. I know that this may not matter to most. The disinformation campaign in the internet swayed and changed our last election, that is a fact. Even Facebook admits it hapoened, and our VIA as well. You can’t believe everything you read on the internet, folks.My daughter and her peers have master’s and doctorate degrees from the best universities and have lived all over the world and are the most computer literate and internet savvy people in the world. Part of my daughter’s job is to meet with the press from all over the world for the international financial company she works for and write financial reports for investors which are on the internet. These people understand the world better than us old timers. I still support Black Lives Matters.

  85. Jim says:

    Not sure if it’s any help, but the book of James addresses the issues.

  86. Xenia says:

    Bride of Christ, I read what BLM themselves have written on their own web site and I find much of it to be incompatible with Christianity.

  87. Michael says:

    Bride of Christ,

    You can read for yourself on their website…they’re not shy.

  88. Michael says:

    I’m closing this down.
    I’ll be following the live stream and praying for the peace of Kenosha and prodinov and family.

  89. Michael says:

    Reopening to hear from prodinov…

  90. Babylon's Dread says:

    I would love an update on the situation in Kenosha and to know how last night unfolded. The networks are terrible at covering these things cable and otherwise as far as I can tell. Politicization of news has to be at an all time high in America

  91. Michael says:


    I have absolutely no tolerance for snark and I’ll not ask for civility again.

  92. directambiguity says:

    Michael, it wasn’t snark the guy made his case based on their credentials, not facts.

  93. Michael says:


    I emailed him…

  94. Michael says:


    I am very tired and I’m not a nice person when fully rested.
    We’ll deal with each other gracefully or people will disappear from the site.

  95. prodinov says:

    Kenosha served as an excellent example of a peaceful protest after curfew that had sufficient lawful agencies maintaining order. I am hoping that this avoids future disruptions nationwide. Here is my take: some are rumors only. The group that would be labeled “Antifa” or other alt right names, were parked out front of my building, 50-60 total. They were putting on body armor at 4 in the afternoon. They got in their caravan and left at 6 pm and never appeared anywhere in the protest nor march. I heard that they were warned to leave the county or risk arrest since they had gas containers in their vans/trailers, and yes, I myself saw that, so whether the gas cans were for their vehicles or trouble, they left and never came back. The protesters last night were different from those of the night before when 2 were killed. The night before there were some extreme individuals that I described as demonic and bent on amplifying fear. In original response to ‘How Bad It it…”, my fear was always thinking that if some semblance of control was not implemented, this would serve as small town American and spread rapidly between now and November 3rd. Watching how my 2 children have reacted is what we all worry about, can fear become an avalanche to anarchy? This is not political. Last night, the group that marched were peaceful, and wanted to be heard. But no chaos occurred. This is a hopeful sign. The National Guard and police remained respectful and in most cases, on the perimeters to avoid threatening those who wanted to march. Our family was in bed by 11 pm, and at no point did we wake again with noise, gunfire or other disruptions. So…protesters and law agencies can find neutral ground. Families like mine desire to see justice. But we also want to live without fear. Fear of a molotov cocktail being thrown thru our window, or a gun toting madman potentially letting loose a trigger happy AK….I do not have answers….but when I seek forth Godly counsel, and pray for wisdom, I tend to hit a brick wall, which is why I share some common ground with Phoenix. Where is God? Where are those that seek unity? I know that God has a master plan, but the pain that results from our sins can be quite amplified via what our country is experiencing now. I try and remain optimistic, but there is this crushing weight of events in our country nationwide that should cause us all to weep and keep asking God to intervene whether we be on one side or the other politically. Meanwhile, life here in Kenosha is cautiously returning just within the last 12 hours.

  96. Babylon's Dread says:

    Thank you for that hopeful and clear response

  97. Michael says:

    Thank you for responding, prodinov…glad you and yours made it through.

  98. directambiguity says:

    NFAC shot each other last time they assembled. Probably not the best to call on.

  99. directambiguity says:

    CM calls Rittenhouse an alt-right cop groupie and prodinov calls antifa alt right, I’m so confused.

    But I’m glad things in Kenosha have settled down and prodinov and his family is safer.

    And Michael and Xenia are correct about BLM.

  100. Everstudy says:

    My frustration with this whole mess is the fact that so many are so quick to jump to conclusions with so little information and willing to justify or overlook evil because it makes their side look bad.

    Looting happens when a murder suspect kills himself… because people on social media said the cops shot him.

    Protests start back up, leagues quit or postpone games and practices. Politicians, athletes and activists, charge, convict, can condemn the police officer … based on one video shared on social media. Now we find out (with video) that a black woman called the police on the man because he was in her house and shouldn’t have been, that the police knew he had a warrant for his arrest, that the police tried to subdue him before he moved to the vehicle, and that he was armed with a knife.

    Words mean things, and people are inspired to goodness and evil based on what is said and who speaks. If politicians, the media, and (now) famous athletes are quick to condemn police before facts are known, people will feel justified to burn it all down.

  101. Babylon's Dread says:

    The New York Times did an article on the shootings the night before… the 17 year old was from across state line and he was armed. He was also apparently an EMT — He did cross state lines with a weapon which is illegal. He was protecting a car dealership with others from rioters.

    He had left the dealership and was prevented returning by the police. Then he was chased down by the rioters. Yes, rioters, when you attempt violence against a man you are a rioter and when you do it against an armed man you are nuts.

    The three men who were shot all had criminal records including a sexual offender and a weapons charge, they also all three were attacking the young man.

    CNN gaslighted the whole thing just like they did with Nick Sandmann — they can’t be taught to be newspeople at this point.

    When police are handcuffed by politicians the people will fill the void. When police are presumed guilty by politicians angry people will riot. No innocent sufferers involved in this altercation. But there’s no way they will get a first degree murder on this young man. It is all on tape.

    Can politicians get back to supporting the law and ‘the process’ and can we please stop calling people who are breaking the law and breaking curfews ‘peaceful?’

    Sooner or later someone either left or right will exert more force than we want them to. The seeds of that hell are being sown.

  102. CM says:


    WI does not have a stand your ground law nor any castle doctrine laws. Also he was not old enough under law to own that weapon under his name.

  103. Babylon's Dread says:


    They do have laws that require you to prove premeditation with murder and they do have self defense arguments. I pointed out that he was illegally carrying. He won’t get 1st degree and I doubt he’ll serve time at all. Time will tell.Like I said there were no innocents on hand.

  104. CM says:

    My take is he get manslaughter on 2 counts and 1 attempted manslaughter, sentences served concurrently. Of course when he goes to prison, he will get passed around by the Sisters (see Shawshank Redemption) like a bag of chips.

  105. Jean says:

    I was thinking about writing a long comment, but don’t have the energy right now, but feel I should say something.

    First, everyone should know from past experience that initial reports are incomplete at best and often contain errors.

    Two, if you favor a certain news outlet, bear in mind that more than likely it is biased in favor of your own biases.

    Three, it has only been an extremely short time since the events of Kenosha actually took place.

    Fourth, so, wait patiently for more facts to emerge. More video, more witness testimony, etc.

    Fifth, learn to distinguish irrelevant facts. Is it relevant if a person in a given situation had a knife? What is a Swiss Army knife like anyone might carry for utility? Did he brandish it? Did a police officer know about it or see it? Was it one the person or in the car?

    Sixth, the dead victims from the 17 year old: Was the fact that one of them had a criminal history relevant? What makes a rap sheet relevant to his killing? Could there be an inherent bias in the criminal justice system that makes a black young men more likely than a white young men to have a rap sheet in America, even though their conduct may be similar?

    Seventh, let’s say in the worst case scenario that the black man pulled out his knife on the armed police officer: Was a point blank shot to the back necessary? If it was, how many? Did the man drop the knife (assuming he brandished it, which we don’t know) after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th shot to the back? What is the goal of the apprehension of a suspect?

    All I’m trying to say, is let’s now be just a mouthpiece for our favorite news outlet.

  106. Michael says:

    Can we please address these issues with some measure of Christian dignity?

    On every one of these comments there are genuine concerns…things we need to discuss…but we need to discuss them solemnly and prayerfully.

    Jean raises some good points, the best being that we need to wait until all the facts are gathered…and we need to consult different media to get a full picture.

    I do not believe the young shooter will do any time…but I didn’t believe that yesterday.

  107. Mike E. says:

    How bad is it? A 17-year-old vigilante is being celebrated as a hero by some folks. The young man probably should actually be charged federally, if it’s true as I read that he traveled over state lines with a weapon it was not lawful for him to possess, then used that weapon to take the lives of two people. The young man clearly chose to insert himself into a violent situation he had no business being present at in the first place. Under whose authority did the young man have a right to use deadly force? How ironic the “law and order” crowd cheering on vigilantism.

  108. Michael says:

    I’m reading the actual complaint…which is different than what I’m seeing in the media…God help us all…

  109. Michael says:

    After reading the charges I don’t know what will happen…but it will not be good in any case.

  110. prodinov says:

    I only live in downtown Kenosha because my wife needed to finish her advanced degree in Chicago and the train station is right next to the courthouse. She can walk. I try not to inject myself too much into the talk because I can only report on how “we” feel that live here and feel “threatened”. But I am anxious to join Dan From Georgia since that is my stomping ground. Curfew did start approx 20 minutes ago. Streets are empty. We expect protesting tonight but the protesters have made joint statements today that state if they identify anyone they do not know, they will report said people as potential suspects for trouble. Meanwhile, businesses remain shut down, boarded up, and people remain indoors. Fear was rampant days ago, and seems less so today from the neighbors I have. The heart ache is no matter guilt/innocent or circumstances, a young man, living in a single parent apartment with his mother, has become embroiled in a life altering event. His firing of a weapon took lives. He may never be the same. Spiritually…it is my hope that the justice system works…and if the young man serves time, that he is able to have a soul wrenching face to face and know that there is a better place, a better time, with a Heavenly Father that will embrace him if he is willing to accept the gift. My heart goes out to him and those who have faced like minded circumstances. In the next 2 months, our country will be faced with potential calamity and the discourse that is present even on this site is this deep sadness that Phoenix has alluded to so many times, it is ripping our souls out, making it difficult to breath, and meanwhile the enemy is prowling around devouring victims….Kenosha is not different. May God help us….and may we all take our opposing political views and take time to reflect on how we can all live lives that matter.

  111. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks prodinov! I do feel some safety and security here in western GA (Newnan), but when the city of Minneapolis (my old stomping grounds) lit up a few months back and the protests spread nation-wide, there was a fear that I would be woken up at night to the sounds of police cars and fire trucks. It’s sad and almost unbelievable to see the Minneapolis I left in 2009 is the same Minneapolis in 2020.

  112. Michael says:


    Well said…thank you.

  113. Mike E. says:

    Prodinov-I agree with your stance of compassion for the boy and hope also for his salvation. I note, respectfully, the lack of a statement of compassion for the lives of the fallen. However, in the spirit of Christian love, I choose to believe that was simply an oversight. I understand emotions are running high and I certainly can’t know or appreciate what it must feel like to have your family threatened in this way. I only make the statement because those killed were loved by God and their families. I thought it proper to acknowledge them in a call for compassion.

  114. Jim says:

    “Sixth, the dead victims from the 17 year old: Was the fact that one of them had a criminal history relevant? What makes a rap sheet relevant to his killing? Could there be an inherent bias in the criminal justice system that makes a black young men more likely than a white young men to have a rap sheet in America, even though their conduct may be similar?”

    Jean, yes, the inherent bias in the “justice” system makes your scenario more likely. In this case, the man in question was white and jewish. He did 12 years for sex with a minor, and was a reg offender.

    The two shootings caught on video were clearly self defense, and the shooter was on his back, with no means of retreat. I think the only crime we know the 17 YO committed was underage possession, which is a BS law anyway, and probably a misdemeanor.

    The problem I have morally is that guns are for protecting people, not property. Insurance protects property. Whatever their motive, these clowns should have left their guns (and themselves) at home.

  115. prodinov says:

    Mike E., Absolutely. The problem is comment boards. You start typing and it can be challenging to hit all cylinders. I comment very seldom for this very reason. When it is all said and done, I have faith that we all desire a more balanced world with the ability to show compassion and do so without the “fear” aspect. Phoenix wrote last month a touching story “Super Secret Power”. A young 19 year old black girl from Milwaukee took that story and at some point release it on that power Phoenix talked about “love”. The young are so innocent while we adults are cynical. May we all regain some of that innocence so the wild cats will follow us, the wild cats that have suffered wounds and abuse.

  116. Mike E. says:

    Thank you Prodinov. May our holy God be a refuge to all in Kenosha tonight.

  117. Michael says:


    Someday I hope we can share that girls work here…

  118. Dan from Georgia says:

    Meant to say “isn’t the same Minneapolis in 2020”.

    Thanks for the thoughtful comments here recently guys.

  119. Babylon's Dread says:

    That 17 year old is in jail because the governor of WI won’t do his job. That has become policy. It is also why those two are dead and the other is injured. When a vacuum is left open something always fills it. Law and order will always always find someone to step up.

  120. Mike E. says:

    No, BD, that 17 y/o is in jail because he made deliberate choices to act as an extrajudicial officer and broke several laws doing so. That is vigilantism and that is immoral and wrong my friend. That is not “law and order.” That is anarchy. Instead of law and order, I call for the rule of law. I do agree the politicians are adding to the problem.

  121. bob1 says:

    That 17 year old is in jail because the governor of WI won’t do his job.

    That’s total BS. Can’t you post an original thought that isn’t just an RNC talking point and justifies vigilantism?

    “Rule of law”? Your whole post is chillingly Orwellian.

    Up is down/
    “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.”

  122. That “kid” came armed, looking to commit violence. Self-defense I the moment or not, he committed the acts that he desired to commit out of his heart. And we know what the Bible says what comes out of the heart, including murders.

    The politicians are also complicit to a lesser degree. CHOP/CHAZ in Seattle was shut down after two black kids were shot to death, and a third seriously injured by “free zone” types. God help us in November, no matter who wins the presidency.

  123. Babylon's Dread says:


    I’m just peacefully exercising first amendment rights.

  124. CM says:


    And people are peacefully exercising their 1A rights to say you are full of excrement.

    Though technically that is not the case here, as this is Michael’s forum. So he is not obliged to honor 1A rights at all (same goes with Google, Twitter, Facebook, etc.). But then I suppose you are just peachy with Trump , Josh Hawley (Senator – MO (Luddite)) and others going after those tech companies the same way as Elizabeth Warren.

  125. Michael says:

    “And people are peacefully exercising their 1A rights to say you are full of excrement”

    This is not working out.

    I do not know why we do not have the ability to hear what people are saying.

    When the state allows unchecked violence in the name of progress, someone will try to restore the social order.

    We have months of cities under siege…and to some folks, particularly of the age and lineage of BD and myself, what we are seeing was inevitable and will grow worse.

    Every perspective on this blog is also unfortunately from the white political spectrum…people of color may well have a different take.

    Try to hear what people are saying..or I’ll have to exercise my rights as a property owner.

  126. Babylon's Dread says:


    I don’t think we know each other but I am much worse than you imagine so be at peace.. One thing sure on the streets of Kenosha there are no innocents. All the virtuous ones are here behind pseudonyms.

    First Arse Dread

  127. Duane Arnold says:


    “Every perspective on this blog is also unfortunately from the white political spectrum…people of color may well have a different take.”

    Yes. On the thread we often talk “at” each other, which is perhaps to be expected. When it comes to the black and hispanic community, we talk “about” them. We define them as rioters, or protestors, or even as good people… but we are talking about them as a separate community. At this point we’re all tired. We’re tired of the violence, the protests, the pandemic and the politics. We’re frightened of the future. We want back “our normal”. I think, however, we need to listen to what the “normal” is and has been for people of color and to remember that they are tired as well… tired of violence within their own communities, tired of police violence, tired of being frightened.

    With all the talk “at” and “about” I simply hope that we are also listening.

  128. Jean says:

    We can’t force anyone to obey or even respect the law, but we can do our best as a society to hold these two principles well: “law” and “order.” There is perhaps no greater obligation of government than to administer the law and maintain order.

    However, within our laws, are to governing principles: equal protection and due process. The most we can promise our fellow citizens (and it is no small promise) is that the law will be applied “equally” to all and that all will be afforded due process of the law.

    Historically, that has not been the case in our country and while we have made improvements over the years, we have also back slidden at times.

    I don’t think a government can truly be for “law and order,” unless there is a commitment to equal protection and due process, because all our citizens are needed for order to exist, and all citizens need to feel and believe that the law is there to protect them too.

  129. Mike Ehrmantrout no pseudonym says:

    What I hear is excuses being made for violence. On both sides, excuses abound for why it’s OK to resort to violence. Well it isn’t. Not in our Lord’s kingdom. Did He not tell Peter to put down his sword? Did he not say, “whoever lives by the sword (or the AR 15 as the case may be) will die by it?” Violence by individuals does not achieve the will of God. All of our collective thinking seems twisted and confused. Why? Is it because we are leaning on our own understanding, and thereby not acknowledging Him in all our ways? I do not think I could possibly be more weary. My mental health is deteriorating. I am not OK. Perhaps that may be why it feels and seems like nobody really listens to me. God, please help all of us to love You and each other for reals.

  130. CM says:

    More than Equal Protection and Due Process (though that is a very large and significant chunk), it also entails government staying in its Constitutional lanes, of which Federalism is a part.

    Case in point: Federal LEO officers and Local/State LEOs have their areas of authority. State and local LEOs cannot enforce Federal laws anymore than Federal LEOs can enforce local laws. That was one of the many problems in Portland. Also, local LEOs are not required to cooperate with Federal agencies (again that Federalism thing).

    One minor nitpick: Due Process and Equal Protection apply to all people in the US, not just citizens. And yes, that would include immigrants (both legal and illegal). Lost in all this “Law and Order” debate is that the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land.

  131. Babylon's Dread says:

    This will be a little arbitrary but I think relevant. There is no real separation of political and theological. Jesus was killed by an alliance of both interests. However, more to my point theology is political. Jesus is LORD is so brazenly and obviously political unless we become hopelessly otherworldly.

    Even when a simple explanation would do to quell the crowd Jesus would not give it. His crucifixion was in view when he refused to explain away his claims to destroy and rebuild the temple.

    The American plea to separate realms lead us to all kinds of folly in discussions. “Don’t be political” “That’s partisan talking points.” “Stick to the Bible” “Let’s talk kingdom not politics.” All these dismissive attempts to silence each other because we cannot imagine that the person we are debating has thought things through in a theological way. I’d wager that we have a hard time asserting anything that is not both political and theological. It may be bad theology but our view of God and the world is always there.

    The evangelical ‘whipping boy’ of the 21st century is our truest example.

    Anyway, the thing is, I may say something utterly stupid, selfish and partisan, but it is not compartmentalized as neatly as we pretend. Our Gospel may be errant but it is not silent.

  132. Babylon's Dread says:


    8:39 well said — we do agree – that 17 year old kid is not excused. His prison sentence will likely prove it.

    Still Hiding Dread

  133. CM says:

    What this means is that the Governor of WI calls the National Guard of WI, NOT the President. What this means is that the Governor of WI requests federal assistance, not the President sending it without asking. If Federal assistance is requested then what is requested and what agencies are involved are specified beforehand.

    If I was to put money on what the governor of WI requested, I suspect it will be FBI, ATF and other agencies primarily in an investigations role on potential Federal crimes associated with the unrest (like travelling across state lines). Perhaps some additional FPS uniformed officers to protect Federal Buildings thereby freeing up county and state LEO resources. Of course if the governor and the Feds are smart, they will make sure Wolf and Cuccinelli are NOT involved anywhere (since they are technically not supposed to be in office and do not have the authority)

  134. Duane Arnold says:


    I think our theology informs our politics… unfortunately, we can also allow politics to inform our theology…

  135. Babylon's Dread says:


    At least since the Civil War the line between Federal and State has been blurred a great deal. The Civil Rights Act blurred it more so. Now we can simply say that someone’s First Amendment Rights are being compromised and unprotected and a matter becomes no longer state and local but federal. It its true in sanctuary laws and it is a mess that will create much more violence in our future.

    Here’s a little forgotten piece of history that is foundational in all of this.

    In 1962 JFK Federalized the Mississippi National Guard to admit James Meredith to the University of Mississippi. Effectively he sent federal troops to a state institution. He said he’d done so to preserve laws and order. The outcome was the first race riot of the 1960s on the campus of Ole Miss. The governor of MS, Ross Barnett had refused to enforce the mandate of a court wherein Meredith received the right to enroll.

    That precedent is at work now in our cities where governors and mayors refuse to do their work by obfuscating peaceful protests and riots wherein State, Federal and private property are all damaged and where bodily injury and death have been inflicted.

    By the way James Meredith still lives in Jackson MS and is advocating for the people of his and my home state to follow the teachings of Jesus and not their anger and rage.

  136. CM says:


    You seem to forget that in MS, the state refused to comply with a SCOTUS Court Order and decision (Brown v. Board of Education in 1954). Tell you what, if the Governor of OR or WI refuses to comply with a SCOTUS (or other Federal Court) decision for 8 years, then Trump is free to federalize the NG of that state.

    Again, what specific parts of the BOR are violated by a State or Local government agency when an arsonist burns down a store or loots it? What Federal Laws on the books are violated? What part of the WI or OR National Guard are refusing with a Federal Court Order?

  137. CM says:

    In regards to sanctuary laws, it is really quite simple.

    Per the Constitution, only Federal Government has the authority to enforce immigration laws. Therefore the states cannot. PERIOD. Likewise the state and local LEOs cannot be commandeered for Federal LEO duties (see Printz v. United States). But under the 14A, everyone in the United States is entitled to Due Process. This means that one’s rights can only be taken away through Due Process (i.e., a trial or legal proceeding). In this case, a Federal judicial hearing.

  138. Babylon's Dread says:


    How can you say I forget what I directly put in my text “refused to enforce the mandate of a court” No doubt the matter is debatable frankly it will be good when they burn down a federal court so we can see.

    The Insurrection Act of 1807 would likely protect the President’s order.

  139. Michael says:

    “I am not OK.”

    Mike E….none of us are.
    And as Duane said, we talk at each other and not with each other and no one hears.

    Both sides of the racial divide demand safety without addressing why the other does not feel safe…so safety is an illusion.

  140. Mike E. says:

    I hate all of this so much. I fought for this country in combat and now I don’t even want to live here anymore. Question for you theologians/biblical scholars…what period of biblical history does this present time most resemble? Israel before Assyrian and Babylonian judgments? Which prophet would be most fit to prophesy about this present period in which we are living?

  141. Michael says:

    Mike E,

    That’s a great question…but it assumes that we are under the judgement of God.

    That may well be the case…but how we answer would again depend on our political persuasions.

    One side would immediately speak of abortion and homosexuality…I would speak of the evil against mankind happening on our border and idolatry.

    The answer would probably be all of the above, but any given group will only repent of the sins of the other side.

    Basically, we’re baked…

  142. Jean says:

    Hi Mike,

    If I had to answer your question, the prophet John and what he said to the 7 churches in Revelation is most relevant.

    I think a lot of our frustration is that we don’t like what we see in this country, we know its self-destructive, but we feel powerless to change the trajectory we’re on. We

    Many of us have grievances towards others, but we are unable to see our own faults. Even when we do acknowledge our own faults, we want our grievances addressed first or at a minimum we want to see reciprocal steps taken by the other side, so that our grievances are treated with as much importance as the grievances of others. This is called the quest for justification from creatures.

  143. Duane Arnold says:


    I think the time we are living through is one of exile. I think many here feel that sense of alienation –

  144. Em says:

    What i see among us now is the law of the jungle running unchecked…. Is shooting an arsonist in the act uncivilized? Some seem to think so…. But then some think shooting a wild animal that is attacking a child is uncivilized…..
    Are we calling good evil and evil good? Where are we on the timeline of history?
    Dunno – i think it cycles with each cycle intensifying…. But then, dunno, do i?.
    God keep all close and focused on His plan, not Satan’s…. Not easy (speaking from experience here )

  145. Babylon's Dread says:

    Because I see cycles in the text of Revelation I would say this is simply normal. Seals, Bowls, Trumpets, Beasts, Prostitutes, Satanic manifestations all increasingly progressing toward the revelation of the Rider on the White Horse.

    We are repeating European history, racial contention, political polarization, unbridled debt, unabridged weaponry and apocalypse. We continuously progress toward apocalyptic outbreaks that lead us toward hope that pain will suffice to reform us. Then we forget the trauma and repeat the drama.

    But I would also agree with Michael and Jean.

  146. Jean says:

    If we we lived in pre-industrial America, we could gather in clans, for clan militias, appoint war chiefs and live relatively autonomously. That’s how some people today actually want to live and convince us to live. It is a view that the parts are worth as much or more than the sum of the parts. It devalues any sort of national identity.

    I strongly believe that without a strong national identity, with strong national institutions, and common laws, a country cannot compete in a world economy nor provide a strong national defense. Because of the erosion of our national identity, I believe American is in decline. We are currently enjoying an allusion of national prosperity, as evidenced by the stock market, because the government is artificially stimulating financial markets and backstopping standards of living with tremendous, unprecedented deficit spending. Even before the pandemic, we had begun having $1 Trillion budget deficits. We were doing this while offering among the weakest social safety nets in the western world. Now during the pandemic, when the holes in the safety net are laid bare, we are spending probably 4-5 Trillion in deficit spending in one year!

    These deficits will end in one of 3 ways: (1) significantly lower economic growth over the long term; (2) runaway inflation in the future (due to the devaluation of our currency) which will destroy livelihoods and retirements; and/or (3) vastly higher interest rates in the future, combined with austerity budgets which will cause deep recession or depression like economic activity.

    We are doing poorly with the pandemic because unlike other countries which have more national identity and stronger institutions, we are unable to tackle a national problem with shared sacrifice and national solutions. But, a virus knows no borders and is agnostic regarding political and religious affiliation.

  147. Michael says:

    Duane beat me to it…exile.
    And probably a bit of the others thoughts…

  148. Babylon's Dread says:

    AND – what Jean posted is almost certain.

    If America is not under judgement – and I see no reason that God is not judging the nations – covenant or not… then we are at the very least reaping what we have sown.

    We certainly have not escaped the sickle in the past – Revolution, Civil War, Depression, World Wars, endless recessions and mini-wars…

    American exceptionalism does not apply to the law of the harvest

    When we pray for the kingdom God answers in the whirlwind

  149. Jean says:

    For anyone here 55+ or older, maybe you can relate…

    I learned patriotism and national identity from three institutions growing up: (1) my public school; (2) the Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts; and (3) serving in the military after high school. They were all very formative for me.

  150. Mike E. says:

    I believe the entire world is now undergoing divine wrath, with America being judged, as is the case with God’s wrath (Romans 1), simply having the divine protection being removed and humans being given up to their own evil desires. And, as BD and Jean said, simply reaping what we have sowed. Are we already in exile? Or are we at the point, just before the captivity? The prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah specifically seem to me to be like reading the news in the morning. They rail against the religious leaders and the political leaders. The church we know is in exile, but the secular society? Pre-captivity and pre-exile. Next is Lamentations. May God have mercy on us all.

  151. Michael says:


    I’m over 55.
    I was in the Cub Scouts until an unseemly incident in camp when I was caught crossing the creek to visit the Girl Scouts.
    I never served in the military.
    Patriotism is an abstract thought to me…though I’m very parochial about my state.
    I never learned it in high school.
    This is a weakness in my ability to understand some things politically.

  152. Michael says:

    I don’t know about the judgement scenario.
    If God judged the nations, Germany would be a salted desert.
    Reaping and sowing leading to exile seems about right…though the church has always been a people in exile…

  153. filbertz says:

    maybe it’s more individualized than many of the ideas put forth–perhaps it’s a separation of wheat and tares, sheep and goats, faith-full and faithless, posers and genuine. If judgment begins in-house, it begins with me. I get pretty comfy when I consider ‘others’ getting grilled and examined; less so when it is me. When He comes, will he find faith in me?

  154. Michael says:

    I’ll say the amen, fil…

  155. Jim says:

    ““I am not OK.”

    Mike E….none of us are.”

    I’m more than ok. I’m not special, but I must be different, as nothing that is happening now surprises me in the least. I think a healthy mind requires barely noticing what worldly things the world is doing this week.

    And this-“the church has always been a people in exile”. You pledge allegiance to your flag, but I’m under a different banner. I pay my taxes to stay out of federal prison, but that’s all they get.

  156. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    It’s the cycle of humankind. We’ve been here before – there probably has not been a time since Eden that was not like this.
    Judgment? I doubt it – we get tired before judgment comes.
    Back in my day, we sang a song about this. Perhaps our kids will have their own song to sing.

  157. Xenia says:

    Some “thing,” or maybe some “entity” that I’ll call the Spirit of Lawlessness is loose upon the world. We’ve had devastating fires in our area, and hundreds of people were, and still are, evacuated from their homes up in the Santa Cruz Mountains, our old stomping grounds. I was taking to one man today. I asked him if his house was ok and he said he didn’t know, but the neighbor’s security camera showed gangs of looters running up his road. He figures when he’s allowed back in he will find his front door bashed in and his home defiled. I watch a local police scanner site, and the number of assaults in town seems to have greatly increased. The Spirit of Lawlessness is loose upon us.

    This is the feast day of the Dormition of the Theotokos, which being interpreted means today we remember the day St. Mary died. Blessed feast day to you all.

  158. CM says:

    He had an interesting voice when singing this song, I will say.

  159. Jean says:


    This is not to argue, but to provide some context to my experience:

    You said: “I was in the Cub Scouts until an unseemly incident in camp when I was caught crossing the creek to visit the Girl Scouts.”

    I grew up in Marin County California in the late 60s through the 70s. My primary connection to nature was two things: Mutual of Omaha’s Wild Kingdom and the Scouts. I loved hiking and camping. I believe that my experiences in the Scouts was formative for my love of nature and concern for the environment and wildlife. I don’t know how a society which lives primarily in a city can learn to care about its environment, ecosystems and conservation without some experience of those things.

    You said: “I never served in the military.” I firmly believe that if history books are written concerning America 200 years from now, historians will attribute the beginning of the decline of America to the elimination of the draft. A just draft compels military service on all levels, races, religions and ethnic groups of society. The military is the institution (or maelstrom) in which the melting pot is forged. That is where national identity is defined and inculcated. Unless a man bunks next to a person of another color or religion or ethnicity, he may never see the humanity in that other man. In the military, you not only bunk next to the “other,” but you entrust your life to him. In this way, you locate his humanity.

    “I never learned it in high school.” Public school is not the military, but a good school does expose youth to other types of people.

    School should reward merit, not pedigree. It should open opportunities for all people, regardless of gender, race, religion or ethnicity. Schoold should instill hope in youth that the American dream is open to each one of them. All schools should be funded justly to provide opportunity to all. Young people should be taught that prosperity through legal channels are open to all of them, and that those avenues are preferable to a life of crime or drug addiction or hopelessness.

  160. Jim says:

    ” A just draft “. Wow.

  161. Michael says:


    I have nothing against the Boy Scouts…just not for me.
    I grew up on the edge (literally) of the Rogue River gorge and wild kingdom was anywhere out the back door.
    If military service was compulsory, I’d also have a criminal record…

  162. Michael says:

    Once a cougar trapped a deer inside the back yard garden fence.
    What happened after that would have made Marlin Perkins sick…

    I was lucky to grow up in paradise before the dope growers took over…

  163. Jim says:

    I was born in ’58, and my brother (Jack) is 10 yrs older than me. I grew up in Bethesda (the belly of the beast), and none of the men on my father’s side worked for the Govt. Male Fed employees married into the family. One was uncle Pete, who was some type of fed big dog.

    Since my brother was of draft age during Vietnam, uncle Pete told my father to call him if my brother got drafted.

    My brother got drafted, and my father called uncle Pete, who told him, have Jack get a college deferment, and immediately enlist in the air force.

    While my brother’s peers were coming home damaged or in body bags, my brother rode out his time working for NSA, 20 minutes from his high school. My brother was offered a job at the NSA after his time and passed.

    Just draft/senator’s son/someone who knows someone.

  164. Jean says:

    Hence the adjective “just.”

  165. Jim says:


    I wanted a just government, then I grew up.

  166. Jean says:

    Jim you were transparent about your view, to which you are entitled: “I pay my taxes to stay out of federal prison, but that’s all they get.”

    And you are not alone. It’s emblematic of why our country IMO is in decline.

  167. Jim says:

    That’s silly Jean. I love this country and its people. I don’t support government, unless it’s just. When you find a just government, let me know.

    I’m curious what you mean by decline.

  168. I take back most of what I said about that Rittenhouse kid last night. The NYT did a breakdown of the events, and it’s not a simple story. Still, the adults failed in letting him there in the first place, and armed.

  169. Mike E. says:

    Jim—“I’m more than ok. I’m not special, but I must be different, as nothing that is happening now surprises me in the least. I think a healthy mind requires barely noticing what worldly things the world is doing this week.“

    That’s the point for me, Jim. I don’t have a healthy mind. I suffer from mental illness. I notice everything going on around me because I’m constantly on guard. Fight or flight, and it’s almost always fight. I’m glad you’re more than ok. I’m less than ok.

  170. Jim says:

    Mike E,

    I’m very sorry. I had no idea that you were referring to a genuine issue. I still recommend unplugging (for everyone). I hope that you’re in community, and have good professional help.

    Again, I’m very sorry for what I would imagine (rightfully so) would appear to be a flippant comment from me.

  171. MM says:

    Wow! A post from MLD!

    “It’s the cycle of humankind. We’ve been here before – there probably has not been a time since Eden that was not like this.
    Judgment? I doubt it – we get tired before judgment comes.
    Back in my day, we sang a song about this. Perhaps our kids will have their own song to sing.”

    He is 100% correct!

    If we stopped reading and listening to what others say about about the bible and actually read it for ourselves, the discovery of corruption, unjust, immoral behavior, drafts to fight for kings, lack of health care for the common man and much more, would be found.

    I believe it was the Assyrians who would put their enemies alive on a pole, yes inserted through the you know what, for all to see and fear them. Pretty nasty days I’d say.

    People haven’t changed, except now we all have a voice and are fed the latest gospel through our social media and MSM. We live in fear because we reject Perfect Love.

    To this day I never understood the obsession with the Apocalypse when every day has its trials and victories. But it is a Calvary Chapel essential.

    Thanks MLD for your post. I kind of missed your crankiness and quite frankly wondered if some malady had sent you home.

  172. Mike E. says:

    MM, I also find the historical perspectives and MLD’s point of view valuable. And somewhat comforting. Especially the reminder that this is what humankind does. Every time. It’s not as complicated as it may appear. And, in fact, it can bolster our faith by realizing the biblical story from the beginning is true. I really need to relax 😉

  173. Mike E. says:

    Jim–thank you for such a humble and compassionate response. I do apologize also, I get emotionally triggered very easily and I’ve found here on the blog in the past I’ve overreacted to certain things that people say. PTSD and depression make thinking logically difficult. Too much adrenaline mixed with emotional responses make things frustrating. Anyway, thanks for the example of Christian brotherly love. I appreciate it.

  174. bob1 says:

    Kinda like MLD mentioned the other day.

    Nothing new under the sun.

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