Kempner Update

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  1. Nonnie says:

    Michael,
    Do not be weary in doing well. Continue in the ministry God has called you to.
    God will not be mocked.

    Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
    1 Cor 15:58

  2. centorian says:

    I would only hope that Kempner has given thought to his actions and is truly repentent…

    people get what they want and deserve what they get.

  3. Not Alone says:

    I am not surprised by any of this anymore. Bad men seem to triumph in these dark days. It must mean something. God has to have a plan in process for this type of Bob Grenier stuff to continue happening unchecked. I have to believe that, it’s the only way I can have peace with this kind of antichristianity.

    I will continue to pray.

  4. Dusty says:

    In this life you will have tribulation…but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. ~Jesus

  5. Em says:

    2Ch 19:5 He [Jehoshaphat] appointed judges in the land in all the fortified cities of Judah, city by city,

    2Ch 19:6 and said to the judges, “Consider what you do, for you judge not for man but for the Lord . He is with you in giving judgment.

    2Ch 19:7 “Now then, let the fear of the Lord be upon you. Be careful what you do, for there is no injustice with the Lord our God, or partiality or taking bribes.”

    2Ch 19:8 Moreover, in Jerusalem Jehoshaphat appointed certain Levites and priests and heads of families of Israel, to give judgment for the Lord and to decide disputed cases. They had their seat at Jerusalem.

    2Ch 19:9 And he charged them: “Thus you shall do in the fear of the Lord , in faithfulness, and with your whole heart:

    2Ch 19:10 “whenever a case comes to you from your brothers who live in their cities, concerning bloodshed, law or commandment, statutes or rules, then you shall warn them, that they may not incur guilt before the Lord and wrath may not come upon you and your brothers. Thus you shall do, and you will not incur guilt.

    course that was before grace… not!

  6. Em says:

    amen to all the posts above BTW

  7. Em says:

    it is puzzling to see the institutional church slip slide into the same mode, thinking patterns that prevailed in OT accounts of the times that Israel {Judah) was on a downward spiral. praying … it isn’t doctrinal heresy that threatens us now so much as it is a distortion of grace – we’re rationalizing wrong doing and marginalizing the majesty of God – it is terrifying to see the cross treated as some sort of magic free pass. These guys need to move doctrine from their double-sided mouths down into their hearts and back up into their understanding…

    Lord, minister Your gracious supply to the needs of Michael and all who look like him in the Body.

    i promise to go away now 🙂

  8. Bryan Stupar says:

    Has there been any repentance?
    Any public admittance/confession of sin?

    Michael, in the past you’ve brought up very good arguments and dialog regarding if/when a person should be removed from ministry, as well as questioning the idea of “permanently disqualifying oneself from ministry” (e.g. Ted Haggard), in situations similar to this one. I admit, all I know about this situation has been made public via PP…that’s it. That’s why respectfully I ask, if there has been any humility and repentance in this case…or has there just been more power-grabs?

  9. Michael says:

    Bryan,

    There is nothing good here except that the rest of the leadership and most of the congregation have left.

  10. Luke002 says:

    As much as I want Prince of Peace to remain open so that the children in this community can experience the loving, Godly, & superior education, Perhaps it is not God’s plan.

    I wonder if the school may be so broken, that God will sacrifice it, let it lay dead, & resurrect it. Leaving no question as to whom is in control of the school.

    The school is having their annual “Country Day Fair” this Saturday, I hope those of you local bloggers will try to attend.

    In HIS grip.

  11. Isaiah56:1 says:

    Really sad. The whole situation is really sad.

  12. nancy says:

    Sad … but not surprising.

  13. paigemom says:

    Amen Nancy…. so what else is new? You know in OT times. God allowed wicked kings to rule for years and years, so this is not inconsistent with patterns of sinful men in power.
    Our hope and peace is found in the reality that God IS in control and in His time will bring about Truth and Justice either in this life or the next….. even if we even have to “die in faith without inheriting” this promise! Such is this life.

  14. Believe says:

    The Kempner situation isn’t fair or just to those who gave their time and money to “his” ministry all those years.

    They have to leave…and he gets to stay…and keep the land and assets.

    This wouldn’t have happened had CC and CCOF had some sort of Franchise Agreement in place to protect the Flock from a rogue Pastor.

    As it stands now, CCOF and the CC System/structure does a really good job protecting the Pastor from the Flock.

    This needs to change.

  15. deadmanwalking says:

    Just a short comment — there was never a “before Grace” time. It’s always been grace, and mercy and grace run from Genesis through Revelation – the unfolding of the revelation may have taken time. But all OT and NT saints are saved by Grace and the Finished work of Christ. We are just fortunate to live on this side of history when the fullness of time came, and He came. I see Jesus in every book in the Bible.

    Although no polity has ever been in place that keeps men from sin, this is the part that could be avoided with good by-laws, policy and procedures.

    The harm and wounds are multiplied by the lack of good church government.

  16. deadmanwalking says:

    And since CCOF stated purpose is in part to protect the pastors, they need to understand that. Not Just pastors, but all of us need people in our lives to protect us from ourselves. In the end true accountability that would help keep us from sin, will never come from polity but it has to come from close personal relationships.

    having humility combined with friends who care enough to be blunt and honest when we start to drift, friends who are willing to wound us in order to save us

    Pr 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

    When you are a pastor there are too many people who will kiss you to death, and not enough who will wound you to life.

  17. Dusty says:

    DMW, you are saying what is much needed to be heard.

    Some of the problems are that when we have tried to confront the pastors, whom we considered to be friends with…they denied us as friends and went on to treat us as enemies and convince everyone else of that as well. Seems that people they choose to have close personal relationships with don’t care what they do…even if they question the pastor, they end up accepting the wrong as ok in the end.

  18. Believe says:

    Dusty, that is exactly what I witnessed growing up.

    People were once friends, staff, associate pastors…and described as servants, Godly people, etc.

    Until, there was a major disagreement or someone challenged by step-dad and his “authority”.

    Once the line was crossed…the nearly-blind “loyalty” was breached…these people’s status changed often from “saved” to un-saved…and from servants to trouble-makers…and from Godly people to “evildoers”.

    Saw it so many times over the years…and then became one of the “emissaries of the devil” and “evildoers” myself…their own son…how much more a regular church-goer.

    It’s sick, twisted and wrong…shouldn’t happen…but God allows it. It’s not His will…but it happens. People are torn up…emotionally and spiritually.

    There are those who just really don’t have a clue what’s going on. Then there are those who are close to the pastor who “see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” and ignore so much. Then there are those who are in it with them…and are liars and deceivers themselves.

    Then, in some cases, you have a System that encourages this kind of behavior by a lack of vetting and a lack of accountability structure to protect the flock from a rogue pastor.

  19. odenfong says:

    DMW said, “When you are a pastor there are too many people who will kiss you to death, and not enough who will wound you to life.”
    Boy ain’t that the truth?

    As it looks right now, the school may only have pre-school and kindergarten next semester so we have to find another school for our six year old who has been at Prince of Peace for three semesters. I’ll be working to set up the Country Day Fair this weekend. My wife and I have also helped serve at two Vacation Bible Schools with Beach Cities Calvary. Both the church and school will not be the same in the future.
    To everything there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven.

  20. Another Voice says:

    Oden,

    If there are limited enrollments (and thus options) has anyone discussed combining say 1st-3rd grade with one teacher – who would of course give out grade specific work.

    This is how education was done in this nation for 100 plus years or so (at least) – ye olde schoolhouse. Might be harder for the higher grades but I think would be doable for that level.

    At least that would give parents another full year to really see their other options and also see where the school might be headed.

    Right now it already is early enrollment for most schools. Hate to see parents like you under the gun.

    Just a suggestion. Blessings to you and your boy.

  21. brian says:

    Personally I was surprised it raised such an uproar and that it was not squashed much quicker, two to three weeks toped. Of course I found the fact that TB took so long to restore I had it fixed at six to eight weeks tops. Being the bottom feeder I am I mis judge these events. But he is back in power, and that is all that will ever matter. I guess we should find joy in that.

  22. odenfong says:

    Another Voice,

    I’m totally out of the loop both at the church and school. I simply am one of the parents of one student. Your suggestion sounds feasible. Sounds like it could work.
    My focus is to secure a first grade education for my six year old son.

  23. Bob Sweat says:

    AV

    Combining grades1-3 with one teacher would be too much. I have been a principal for a number of years in Christian schools, and my experience shows that you would have parents going through the roof! At the school where I serve at the present, we had to combine grades 1-2 this year. It was a tough sell. Fortunately, I have a credentialed teacher who has 15 years experience. Even with that, she struggles at times. IMO, quality education has gone beyond the one room school house. I know that I will have home school parents (including my daughter) screaming at me, but I have dealt with students coming out of multiple grade settings for years, and with a small exception, the education of the child suffers.

  24. Another Voice says:

    Bob, thanks for that input. I bow to your experience obviously. I guess I was thinking comparatively, because as a parent I know I would hate to rush into a school choice that turned out to be a disaster year. A combo class with an existing teacher at the existing school would not be ideal, and likely would suffer a little as you state, but it wouldn’t be a disaster I think. Although if this same pastor is still at the helm, this could be the greater disaster.

    Of course, there is no guarantee the new school would be a disaster either. I’m sure the Lord will guide parents like Oden to the best possible situations, as they seek Him. I know the Lord loves my kids (and all kids) even more than we as parents do.

  25. Michael says:

    I know that at Trey’s little school they tried that and it was a real struggle.

  26. Michael says:

    The important thing to note here is that Kempner has jumped over great competition to land in first place on my most despicable list.

  27. purposeman says:

    Michael,
    Thank you for your effort in putting this blog together and maintaining it. It has been a blessing to many of us that feel the need to vent and expose the injustice and wickedness of a fallen pastor. Sin does blind people and it is my hope that God will remove the blindness from those who remain under Jim’s leadership.
    I do see God working in a new fellowship that is emerging through the leadership (most) and congregation that has left, but remains together.Every week we see new growth and promise.It is awesome! We are meeting at a former leader’s home and need to find a larger facility,much like the early church,neighbors are hearing the gospel and being saved (Acts 2:47).I can see Romans 8:28 in action, all things are working together for God’s good and His desired result.Praise be to our God and King!

  28. David Sloane says:

    All of this got me thinking the other day, is the ‘church’ to be run like a business or a ‘house of worship.’

    Do the pastors act like todays CEO’s, managing funds, property and increasing the bottom line?

    Some pastors are very good at that and become indispensable to others for that reason.

    And others seem to be less able to function as CEO’s but perform pastor and teacher roles quite well.

    Jimmy has exhibited the ability to do all of these things well.

    My perspective/view of Jimmy is a lot diffrent then most. I see him as a fine tuned race car that has perfomed very well on the track. Until he hit a patch of slippery oil and spun off the track. Do we call it a loss and junk the high performance car? Or do we do everything that we can to repair the car and allow it to participate in the race once more?

    Apparently there are those who believe that should take place.

    I want to caution those who may be holding strong positions about this on either side of the issue. Pastor Chuck Smith has a term that may apply. “Man proposes and God disposes.”

    I like this statement when it comes to these issues:

    When you think that you are right, you could be wrong…
    When you think that you are wrong, you could be right…
    Things are never what they at first appear to be.

    One day while passing a roadside sign, I read this:
    “I would rather do something imperfectly then to do nothing expertly.” The church board has acted as best as they can on this Jimmy slipup.

    God Almighty is the God of second chances. He specializes in restoration like no other. Watch Him work, one way or another…

    31.Matthew 18:21
    Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

    32.Matthew 18:22
    Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

    33.Luke 17:4
    And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

  29. Bada Bing says:

    This is not primarily a forgiveness issue for the church. This is a righteousness issue. This is a 1 Timothy 5, Titus 1, 1 Corinthians 5 and 6 issue. While people in his flock are hurt, the forgiveness part is primarily between Kempner, his wife and God.

    Kempner WAS a pastor. He no longer qualifies according to the Bible. And if he doesn’t qualify, he either steps down, is removed or EVERYONE should leave. It’s that simple. Because this is not about Kempner. This is about a righteous example for the flock. That is what a pastor is called to be. So it’s not about the personality, it’s about the example.

    But people are defending him in the name of “love” or “forgiveness.” It’s not about that. He can be loved and forgiven by all. But he should not be the pastor. He is absolutely replaceable and should be replaced lest we say that God cannot function in Beach Cities CC without Kempner. We are ALL replaceable. From J.I. Packer, to Mohler, to MacArthur down to the pastor in the little country church. Replaceable.

    Kempner is not a car and he did not “hit an oil slick.” He was a pastor and he sinned and left himself no longer above reproach. In that car analogy, the answer is you get a new driver and a new car and you replace Kempner because he crashed and burned and is paralyzed and disfigured. He can be a spectator, but no longer an overseer. He sinned against almighty God and has failed as an undershepherd. He CANNOT, by the COMMAND OF SCRIPTURE, be a pastor.

    Forgive him by all means. Restore him as a brother to repentance, but not to the office of overseer. That’s not what “restore” means.

    Everyone who stays in his church is saying that 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 are null and void and they are in direct disobedience with 1 Corinthians 5 and 6.

    I just don’t get it…seriously. God’s Word is non-negotiable…What kind of Christianity is this?

  30. David Sloane says:

    Like I said:
    God Almighty is the God of second chances. He specializes in restoration like no other. Watch Him work, one way or another…

  31. Bob Sweat says:

    David

    I believe and thank God for restoration, but with all due respect, I also believe that one should step down during the restoration process. To use your analogy, the car that spins out of control is repaired before it is sent back on the track.

  32. Shilo says:

    The homosexual is condemned, while the sinning pastor is excused. It was just a “spin out”!

  33. David Sloane says:

    Bob Sweat.

    Thanks for your respectful reply to my post! I like people who use their true name when posting.

    ‘With all due respect’ I don;t think you fully thought over my post when I said, “Watch Him (God) work, one way or another.”

    I did not take a firm stance on A position. As with Oden, Jimmy is a friend of mine and it is best that I remain with the “one way or another side of this issue.

    Like pastor Chuck Smith says, “Man proposes and God disposes.”

    No matter what decision has taken place by the affected church board on how they proceed in this matter, ultimately it is in God’s hands and He will do what He will do one way or another.

    There are strong feelings about the boards choice I realize. Just as there were when Jesus was confronted with the woman caught dead to rights in a stonable offence. We saw how Jesus choose to handle that life or death matter even though there was a mosaic law in the bible for the condition of stoning the woman.

    There was a .definite differential between the actions of Jesus and what the biblical Law proscribed. And yet we see no one refute the action of Jesus. It would seem that Jesus may have written in the dust of the earth each man’s violation,of mosaic law in the bible.

    And of course the accusers fled the scene knowing that they themselves couldn’t live up to the mosaic law in the bible.

    Bob I can only wonder what Jesus is gonna do this time around with Jimmy?

    I agree with you that a car is repaired before it is sent back on the track.

  34. Michael says:

    David,

    It’s not about Jimmy.
    It’s about the lives of the little children and their parents and their teachers.

    I pray the worst for the bastard…and I pray for people who are so shortsighted that they think the church revolves around a whoremonger.

  35. Michael says:

    Was that clear enough?

  36. Michael says:

    Trust me…I won’t be forgetting about Jimmy….

  37. Em says:

    FWIW from the pew:
    i’ve lived a long time – a long time – and have come to the conclusion that God witholds taking action in areas where He has delegated that to the family… we can bring condemnation on the whole House by not praying and, also, by not taking action that He has clearly prescribed
    (my “true” name would be just about as important as my thots are to anyone reading this)

    God keep all close and comforted this night

  38. centorian says:

    I love it how so many go straight to the woman caught in adultery while by-passing so many other New Testament scriptures….

  39. Michael says:

    Centy,

    Jimmy was the guy she was with…

  40. centorian says:

    Michael……… you left me speechless……..

  41. Chris Long says:

    “I pray the worst for the bastard…and I pray for people who are so shortsighted that they think the church revolves around a whoremonger.”

    I understand your frustration, but Is this the heart of the Lord?

  42. Michael says:

    Yes, actually it is.
    “¶ “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,
    but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”
    (Matthew 18:5–6 ESV)

    He was caught, has lied, and now his refusal to step aside is keeping children from learning of God from faithful teachers.

  43. Bob Sweat says:

    David,

    I disagree.

  44. centorian says:

    Psa 58:6 Break their teeth in their mouth, O God! Break out the fangs of the young lions, O LORD!

  45. Michael says:

    Amen, Centy!

  46. Bob Sweat says:

    I really don’t care what pastor Chuck has to say. I have seen your type of thinking almost destroy a church. I know people who are still hurting because of the “Don’t lay hands on the Lord’s anointed” type of thinking. I’m glad Mr. Kempner has friends like yourself, perhaps you can convince him to do the right thing.

  47. Michael says:

    David,

    If Jimmy the whoremonger is your friend, you may want to get off the fence and implore him to get right with God before he splits hell wide open.

    God don’t cotton to people that mess with kids…

  48. filbertz says:

    man proposes and God disposes? I propose God disposes of this pastor.

    I suppose the silence of God argument, that jk remain in place until God removes him, also means that because God didn’t stop him from proposing to hire a whore for a C-note He somehow approved? What nonsense.

  49. Bob Sweat says:

    And David

    You are taking a stand.

    “Bob I can only wonder what Jesus is gonna do this time around with Jimmy? I agree with you that a car is repaired before it is sent back on the track.”

    OK, if you agree about the car undergoing repair analogy, then Jimmy should take a rest and be restored.

  50. filbertz says:

    unless God says it, we can’t assume anything is His will. Too many men have farted and thought it was the word of the Lord.

  51. Bob Sweat says:

    A school is in jeopardy of closing, teachers and other staff will be losing their jobs, and some continue to say let’s see what God is going to do with this man. I can’t believe it!!!

  52. Michael says:

    Bob,

    Makes me sick…and incredibly angry.

  53. Bob Sweat says:

    This is an example of what drives people over the edge and into years of bitterness.

  54. Michael says:

    Bob,

    You’re absolutely right.

    You know the impact that this will have on these children.

    Keeps me up nights…

  55. Hop-Along says:

    Michael,

    The children are definitely the concern here. Yet, sadly, I fear that their parents and family members will likely be the lasting carnage of this.

    The effort to reconcile the Heart of God to the failed actions of those who lead with His name, is a hauntly long dark journey.

    How they continue to engage with the Spirit of God and the body of Christ will largely be determined in this critical time.

    Yet, finding that safe place to trust and to heal will remain the challenge.

    May we continue lift out brothers and sisters; the tragic debris field of one man’s action and many other men’s inaction.

  56. Michael says:

    Hop,

    I haven’t given up yet…I should, but I haven’t.

  57. Hop-Along says:

    I know that you haven’t. Don’t think you should. Don’t think you will.

    Continue on, my brother.

    Just remember to breathe every once in a while!

  58. Another Voice says:

    One not-so-small doctrinal point about the favorite passage of anyone wanting to ignore sin.

    It was said above “There was a .definite differential between the actions of Jesus and what the biblical Law proscribed”

    The woman was not brought to Jesus in the manner the Mosaic Law demanded, so it is an error to accuse the Lord of violating the Law, which is what you are doing when you say Jesus acted in a manner different than the Law’s demands. The Law’s demands were not met at the start in what was clearly a set-up to accuse the Lord of the very thing you are doing here – namely, violating the Law.

    And note – Jesus did OK a stoning.

    Before going down that path, you might think through the ramifications a little deeper…of how a sinless Savior could still be violating God’s holy, just Law – even once.

  59. Chris Long says:

    Michael, as stated, I understand your frustrations with this. But I do think that in the frustration, you need to be careful – especially in ascribing calling people “bastards” and saying you pray the worst for them as really being the Lord’s heart. If you don’t know, you should know full well, that this is NOT the heart of the Lord. God is very grieved over this. He wants Jim to repent. He desperately wants Jim to come to Him for forgiveness and do what’s right. His heart is not to cast Jim away forever as a “bastard” and “whoremonger” to burn in hell… There is grace for all who would come. If Jim won’t come right now (I’m just saying this based on info I’ve read here, not because of personal knowledge of the situation) that is a tragedy, but in time he may. You have clearly in my mind taken that Scripture about children and not only inappropriately applied it here (the children are sinning because of JK? – I don’t think so!), but in so doing, neglected much of the rest of the NT in what it says about grace, forgiveness, mercy, sin, repentance, correction, restoration, etc.

    I for one am glad, that as your TGIF post mentions, that although you WANT to demean and insult him every day, you won’t. And to be blunt, that’s good – because God doesn’t want us demeaning and insulting Jim every day. Calling him out on his sin is fine. Getting vicious ourselves is not. We don’t want to sin in calling someone else out on their sin.

    With all the above said Michael, I love you in the Lord and am grateful for the work you do with PP! 🙂 I recognize I am the new kid on the block here….Normally logic would dictate you don’t challenge the “leader” – at least not when you’re so new, but I’m not always so smart. 😉 Hopefully you’ll just take my comments in the right light in which they are intended (even if you disagree). Love you bro! 🙂

  60. Michael says:

    Chris,

    It’s perfectly allowable to take me on. 😉

    Now I will tell you why “bastard” and “whoremonger” are legitimate expressions.

    In my opinion, any one who would throw away children and a church to further their own agenda is an illegitimate child of God…his father is the devil and his fruit proves so.

    I have posted his guilty plea to the charge of prostitution, thus he is a whoremonger.

    God is neither grieved, nor desperate.
    God is always in perfect peace, immutable and impassable, His plans never thwarted, His elect never lost.

    Some are vessels created for dishonor.

    In regard to my Scripture reference, it is clear to me that in conjunction with Matt 19:13 it is a grave offense in the eyes of God to cause a little one to stumble or to cause them any difficulty in coming to and learning of Christ.

    The wrath of God rests on Kempner and lest he repent he will experience just that at the judgment.

    On the other hand…you might be right. 🙂

  61. Bob Sweat says:

    I’m still a little irritated from the discussion last night. I read the following quote from Pastor Chuck 2 different times last night: “Man proposes and God disposes.”

    Well, since Jimmy has lost his affiliation with Calvary Chapel, its fair to say “Man disposes”.

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