Kevin H: On Politics

You may also like...

168 Responses

  1. Dan from Georgia says:

    Really great post Kevin H! This one tears at my hide too. When I became a Christian it was pretty much a given that you had to be a republican too and vote that way. I even had a woman who was the mom of a girl I was dating leave me a phone message one election season saying she had a list of judges who I should consider voting for in the local election. I called her back, but never reached her (she may have realized that she overstepped her/my boundaries), but regardless I thought that the incident was so telling of how it usually is in conservative evangelical living.’

    I agree too that some Christians should be involved in the election process. I echo Michael here who stated recently in one of his posts, that we Christians still seem to be demanding a king instead of a savior.

  2. Michael says:

    I’m glad Kevin wrote this.
    I made a decision early on to hold my tongue this year as I believe all the candidates are problematic and anything I have to say would be intensely divisive.

    I’m really only qualified to speak to one issue and that issue is being put forth wrapped in more lies than any other.

    However, it’s kind of like how I feel about people that still attend churches led by corrupt celebrities…the people will get exactly what they deserve.

  3. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks also for including the info on the Scalia and Ginsburg friendship! I think it should also be mentioned that one of the ugly sides of politics has also emerged from Scalia’s passing in that some fools have engaged in speculating about a conspiracy about Scalia’s death.

  4. Michael says:


    I was glad he mentioned that friendship as well.
    As someone who allegedly leans left, I had a deep respect for Scalia…

  5. ( |o )====::: says:

    I’m feeling TheBern.
    Time to return to the Democratic Socialism that created the Middle Class, supported our Vets, taxed the obscenely rich, built infrastructure.

    Feel TheBern

  6. Paige says:

    Well said, KevinH…… I have often wondered how I would behave if I ever met any of these big name politicians, including our current president….I rather imagine myself rolling my eyes, spitting on the ground and walking away…. Rather unChristian and unladylike…:-D

  7. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “Now, my own personal longings would very much not like to see President Obama appoint a successor to Justice Scalia.”

    May I ask why? That’s part of his job description and we are almost 1 yr out until another President assumes office.

    Statements like this are what cause the the political divisions and rancor – not when stated by a citizen such as yoursself, but by the GOPers. To cut the crap, their response should be “Mr. President, present us with your best nominee.” But they choose war instead.

    The makeup of SCOTUS is so misunderstood – most cases result in 7-2 or 9-1 decisions – only about 10% are nail biters that matter.

  8. Michael says:

    Both sides are aiming for a utopian vision that isn’t possible.

    One sides vision is almost theocratic, the other classically humanistic.

    They both terrify me, but I live close enough to the wilderness not to care anymore.

  9. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    and if I may add about “church governments” – these are the bodies that work hard so that 99% of churches do not have the scandals and issues we read on the internet.

    Church governments are the solution to the problems — not the problem itself.

  10. Michael says:


    The problem is that while your form of church government has that accountability, most of evangelicalism doesn’t.

    Thus, your 99% sure as hell doesn’t apply there.

  11. Kevin H says:


    All I was meaning was that I wish Obama wasn’t in a position where he can appoint another Justice. I wish no more openings would have occurred while he was in office.

    However, circumstances being as they are, the law of the land should allow him to nominate candidate(s), Congress should give the candidate(s) a fair hearing, and ultimately he should be able to appoint once the process has been properly and fairly followed.

  12. Michael says:

    I may just write in Kevin for president…

  13. Kevin H says:


    I didn’t say anything directly about “church government”. I was speaking to the “political entanglements” that can occur in the church. Often those political entanglements can mirror the attitude and spirit of national politics. And that is what I don’t like.

  14. Kevin H says:

    Michael, believe me, you wouldn’t want me. I’ve got too many of my own problems and issues. The media just doesn’t know them yet. 🙂

  15. Cash says:

    It mostly started in the early 80s with Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority when conservative politicians saw an opening to create a new voter bloc out of evangelical Christians. Since then, many evangelicals believe Jesus is a white Republican. I don’t think the left has all the answers either, but at least they don’t make a pretense of being God’s chosen people. And I appreciate the left’s regard for the poor and the needy, which Jesus talked a lot about. The conservative attitude of “makers and takers” really grates on my nerves. It is not a godly attitude in my opinion. It is one of pride and hubris.

  16. ( |o )====::: says:

    “Both sides are aiming for a utopian vision that isn’t possible.”

    Firstly, hello, wishing you well!

    Other than the postwar institutionalized racism, mysogeny and bad suits, there is no “utopia” to return to. All we’re looking for is to do something we Americans have already done, and done well.

  17. ( |o )====::: says:

    …done between 1946 – 1981

  18. Dan from Georgia says:

    Cash (post #15)…I was one of those influenced (indoctrinated you could say) by that 80s Moral Majority stuff. Late 1988 came to Christ and immediately drawn into a conservative church. Dare I say it also that Focus On The Family and their radio program were heavily influenced also (with their almost weekly call for listeners to write their senators about the latest threat to the family, whatever it was that week!).

    I have come out somewhat from their cloak over the last 5-10 years and have somewhat drifted towards being a Christian Progressive, but not totally there as some hard-cord Christian Progressives really annoy the hell out of me.

    I love the “Jesus is a white republican” statement. How true that that is how many people see him.

  19. Michael says:


    Thank you…praying the best for you as well.

    The problem we face is that we did some things very well in a very different world.

    Today we are dealing with a truly global economy and most countries are engaging it from a position of deep indebtedness.

    The story that no one wants to deal with that affects this as well is the global migration of people fleeing poverty and violence from one place to the first world economies.

    This is the greatest migration in human history.

    It doesn’t ring populist bells like a wall does, but a wall will have no effect and the problem will intensify.

    Until we can discuss real problems, I’m going to sharpen my hunting and gathering skills… 🙂

  20. ( |o )====::: says:

    “Populist” Democratic Socialists think different.

    We’ve always been immigrants with varying degrees of assimilation.
    We don’t want a stinkin’ wall.
    We welcome, we influence & assimilate, we use our Ameri-can-do attitude and will to work for our common good because E pluribus unum.

    WE can do it, all of us, together.

  21. Cash says:


    Isn’t it the truth? Many evangelicals would never dream of Jesus being anything but a conservative zealot. They have made God in their own image.

  22. Michael says:


    I wish it were that simple, but it’s not.
    I do love the heart behind it, though.

  23. Jean says:

    Scapegoat: a person who is unfairly blamed for something that others have done

    There are many people in America today who are miserable, unhappy, unpleasant individuals. They consider themselves aggrieved, oppressed and/or cheated.

    So, scapegoating is the new passion. Blame someone or something for my problems. The government; the tea party; the liberals; Planned Parenthood; main stream media; big banks; special interests; environmentalists; feminists; illegal immigration; LGBTs; etc.

    People even scapegoat the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Was it the Jews, the Romans, the religious establishment?

    What about each of us? What is each of our responsibility for the way things are? Does not evil and sin course through every one of us? Maybe not the same manifestation of evil, but are our hands clean?

    Maybe at a time like this in our country’s history, the best starting place for every one of us, a first step towards our own healing and offering healing to our neighbors, might just be repentance. What our country needs now is not more empty promises, but more ambassadors of our risen King.

  24. Michael says:

    Jean just won comment of the week…

  25. ( |o )====::: says:

    “I wish it were that simple, but it’s not.
    I do love the heart behind it, though.”

    Thanks Michael.

    Thing is, a whole 2 generations ago, with less sophisticated technology, that “Greatest Generation” possessed a vision of America that still exists apart from the extremists in the GOP, one that my children’s generation lives and breathes and is mobilizing behind Bernie Sanders along with me and others, and we simple demand that we return to an America which is not for the banks, the 1% and the special interests, which repeals the notion that a corporation is a person, and wants our taxes to be spent in ways that do not crush college students with crippling debt. We will simply remove obstructionist politicians.

    If we Americans, between 1946 – 1981, could do it, then it’s easily within our reach in 2016

  26. Em says:

    the link to the Scalia haters … isn’t that the same blind mindset that beheaded the Coptics being honored here today?

  27. filbertz says:

    Justice Scalia demonstrated not only friendship with those who shared ideological differences, he welcomed challenges to his positions, thoughts, ideals, and assumptions because he wanted to understand. He asked intelligent, probing questions not to embarrass or expose, but to engage in mutual exchange and in genuine desire to comprehend. He was a national asset and treasure. May he also be an example and inspiration.

  28. OCDan says:

    I always like to remind the conservative christians about Ike and Kennedy’s 90%+ taxation rate and you can be sure there were a lot less loopholes than now. Sure, a different era, but 90% is still 90%.

    The look on their faces is priceless, esp. when complaining about Obama’s 36 or 39%. Not that I am making any statement of support. Just that we easily forget history when it is our guy or gal running.

    And as MLD always writes, if voting mattering they wouldn’t let us do it.

    To which I remind people what uncle Joe Stalin said about voting. “It is not the people who vote that determine the results, it is the person counting them.”

  29. Em says:

    haven’t read the whole thread, yet – but i do think that some of our politicians have good hearts/intentions to improve the state of the nation… trouble is – with the exception of the Trumpet – you can’t get into the game until you learn to go along to get along… most politician are IMV puppets… it is the one’s behind the curtain pulling the strings that we should fear
    i hope i’d be as brave as Paige and give these posers just the amount of respect they’re due

  30. Em says:

    the only thing that separates the United States of America from every other “teeming” mass of humanity is our Constitution – it seems to me that the most effort being put forth today is to do work-arounds… we even hear that it is outdated, it is a living document and subject to reworking… some politicians are calling for a convention to do so… i don’t think we are up to the task … just sayin

  31. filbertz says:

    I have yet to conclude that ‘any of the above’ might earn my vote. There can be no ‘mandate’ on a politician’s views when far less than a majority of adults in the nation do not vote for him/her. I may, for the first time, consider it my civic duty to abstain from casting a ballot for president. Partisan ‘business as usual’ has hamstrung our political/governmental system.

  32. Em says:

    OCDan and the G man remind me of a couple things… anyone who believes our votes are counted honestly today is living in the 1940s (even then it was vote early and often, tho)
    the other matter that i both agree and disagree (surprise) with is the matter of the cost of higher education… the Universities are crooks, they are raping the students, not only in tuition fees but in degree requirements, frivolous courses that have NO value to anyone, but the pocket book of the school … and that is where reform begins IMNSHO

  33. Em says:

    well… did i kill the thread? it’s safe to return now
    my glittering generality – with their misplaced punctuation marks – rants are over 🙂

  34. Scott says:

    Make sure you Google statements by then Senator Obama regarding his commitment to filibuster Justice Alito’s nomination and the why.

    Juxtapose what he said then and what he and those who side with him now are saying regarding Scalia’s replacement.

    You will quickly discover what an absolute ideologue and hypocrite the man is.

  35. ( |o )====::: says:

    “…G man remind me of a couple things… anyone who believes our votes are counted honestly today is living in the 1940s (even then it was vote early and often, tho)”

    Thankfully I do not share your cynicism here in the 2016’s

    The 1940’s were outrageously stacked against minorities by the white establishment. We have made great strides to change that.

    I suggest you meet with voters who value their vote. Meet with local Bernie supporters, start a dialog and get re-inspired at the voice you already have and take steps to lose your cynicism. You are an American and more important than ever waiving a flag or putting your hand over your heart and pledging allegiance to a flag is to be engaged in our American political process that literally entitles you a voice and to be heard if you overcome your own cynicism and the cynicism of others.

  36. Kevin H says:


    I’ve already seen those statements by Obama on my Facebook feed. Yes, he is a hypocrite for acting one way in the past and then expecting different behavior now that he is on the other end of things. Add it to my list for why I hate politics.

    Regardless of Obama’s hypocriticalness, two rights don’t make a wrong if the Republicans are now the ones to try to circumvent established rule.

  37. everstudy says:

    I live in California and probably won’t vote for president this year (for the first time). It just doesn’t matter here. A pile of rocks with a ‘D’ behind it would win.

    And as far as returning to pre-81, we’re a different country now with a different culture and different economy. I don’t have a cheery outlook if either party wins.

  38. OCDan says:

    Not here to bash you Jo, but look at how Bernie lost 6, yeah six, coin flips to Hillary. And we say the system is better. Also, look at superdelegates as well as how federal senators are elected now. And we as a country have the gall to tell everyone else how to run things. At least in banana republics, as we like to call them, you know where you stand with a gun pointed at you. Here you vote and it doesn’t matter. South America must laugh at us thinking it all matters.

    Also, let’s not forget that the Supreme Court decided Bush v. Gore and that Henry Clay traded his House backers, er I mean votes, to JQ Adams for the Sec. of State position, which meant Andy Jackson would have to wait another 4 years. Look at Kennedy beating Nixon in Cook County (vote early and often), which basically decided that one. Dibold machines, shall I go on. That is why I am cynical.

    See, I am cynical because very few at that level get there by walking on water and fewer without wanting the power and then keeping it.

    I respect that you do not share my cynicism, but like the Who said, meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

    Thankfully for all of us here, I hope, our hope rests with the God (boss, if I may) of the universe who is not some elected person.

  39. Steve Wright says:

    I had to remind someone just yesterday of the Bush judicial appointments and the Dems so-called commitment to the process when it came to most of his appellate picks, some of whom never even got out of committee much less a vote in the Senate. Raw power by the Dems who had the vote.

    Nuclear option, Gang of 14 were terms that sprung from those years due to their obstructionism.

    One would think it was ancient history given the short memories…but since most of the same players are still on the stage making noise (i.e. Schumer) it seemed relevant.

    The people made it clear in the last election they did not want the Dems controlling the Senate – they are getting their wish and if not happy they will have a chance to let the Dems take it back in November.

  40. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    It’s funny reading comments from people suggesting hypocrisy from what someone said as a Senator vs what he now says as the President.
    Two different job descriptions – Congress and the President have 2 different roles to play.

  41. Steve Wright says:

    The makeup of SCOTUS is so misunderstood – most cases result in 7-2 or 9-1 decisions – only about 10% are nail biters that matter.
    But when they matter…they matter a lot. However, your point is taken and while one SCOTUS judge is far more important than one appellate judge, the fact is that a dozen or more appellate judges combined are far more significant than any sole SCOTUS judge.

    All the more since the SCOTUS rejects far more cases than they accept, meaning the appellate decisions end up being the law of the land more often than not.

    Politics is hardball and elections matter. If the federal government was anything close to the founders vision then maybe it would not matter as much but the fact is the feds are making sure they control more and more and more of our lives and so hardball is what we have.

    I understand people despise hardball…despising the process…even dropping out and not voting. Just like I understand people hating boxing because of the violence. I don’t understand people talking and reading about boxing, and bemoaning the fact they punch each other with their fists.

    Separation of powers means what it says…separation…AND…powers. When the Dems have the power (see Obamacare) they ramrod, obstruct and do whatever it takes to force their will….hey, when they win they can do so and then see what happens at the next election.

    A few Republicans are finally awakening to that reality and their responsibility…ask the genteel ones who keep getting primary battles from within their own party on that…

    Just go out, vote straight Democrat down the line, and give them control of the government once more if this SCOTUS battle is so distressing…problem solved. And live with everything else they pass until the next election.

  42. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    To claim that the Christian church views Jesus as a white conservative is absolutely wrong. By population I would guess that an equal number consider him if not the semitic Jew would consider Jesus as a man of color and liberal leanings.

    Black churches and RCC that is probably 50% populated with Hispanics, Cubans , Filipinos etc. Why do they get left out of the mix – why the focus only on white conservatives?

  43. Steve Wright says:

    Congress and the President have 2 different roles to play.
    Fair enough…until the President dares to dictate to the Senate what they must do…then his Senate views are certainly fair game. Do as I say, not as I did….

    But the real hypocrisy is with Schumer and the gang MLD…Pat Leahy and the fellows. WHo cares what Obama says or does not say about the Senate. None of his business.

  44. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I consider myself a non partisan constitutionalist. If people are following the constitution (both sides do and both side abuse) then I don’t care what party is in power. I have learned through my many years, I do not always get my was – in fact rarely do I get what I want the way I want it. So you settle with the compromises made.

    Compromise used to happen – but not today.

    Watch this video, how great minds work things out. A former president, a couple of Supremes, hot shot advisers and media folks. These are from 1984 – I cannot image this discussion happening today.

    If you want more, look at the sidebar to the right. I used to live on these things in the 80s when they were on PBS.

  45. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “Fair enough…until the President dares to dictate to the Senate what they must do”

    But I think in this case it was the Senate that fired the first volley and told the President he should stand down and not perform his constitutional duty.

  46. Steve Wright says:

    New York Times..inserting themselves into the Bork debacle which started all this nonsense 30 years ago.
    The President’s supporters insist vehemently that, having won the 1984 election, he has every right to try to change the Court’s direction. Yes, but the Democrats won the 1986 election, regaining control of the Senate, and they have every right to resist. This is not the same Senate that confirmed William Rehnquist as Chief Justice and Antonin Scalia as an associate justice last year.
    I’m sure the NY Times will keep their editorial consistency and fully expect them to support the Republicans…right?

    Or will they just say this is all racist in hopes that enough Senators will cower at being called racist by enough liberals that they cave…

  47. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Are you actually for banning editorial pages in major newspapers? LOL

    Are you also suggesting that this country, this country’s politics or that even the thinking of the NY Times have not changed over the past 30 yrs?

    Steve, how consistent are you with your 1984 thoughts, beliefs and politics today?

  48. Steve Wright says:

    and told the President he should stand down and not perform his constitutional duty.
    You might want to check a little deeper into that score….Telling a nominee (like a budget) he is dead on arrival is different than saying don’t even bother sending a budget.

    Sure, let Obama send a nomination. Who cares. Like I said, to listen to guys like you this would be the surest way for the Democrats to win the White House and take back the Senate…maybe even the House would get swept up as America is so upset

    I would think the Dems would LOVE this opportunity. Certainly Hillary would nominate someone akin to Obama’s choice – maybe even the same person.

    The fact that three Republican Senators, 1st termers up for their first reelection since getting in office in the anti-Obama midterm of 2010, all from Obama states, are all saying they will not support his pick tells you a little about the feelings of the electorate and their best chance at winning reelection…but hey, lots of time until November and this could still be the best thing that happens to the Dems if MLD is right

  49. Steve Wright says:

    MLD – stop trolling. If you think that Senate elections mattered in 1986 but they do not matter in 2014 then just say so. Pointing out hypocrisy when it favors the left is not a call for “banning” anything….

    I’m out. Thank God for free elections and everyone here, happy or unhappy, can go out and express those views by sending people home or sending people back to D.C. in a few months.

  50. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve, stop trolling – look, Cruz, Rubio and a couple of other Senators and perhaps more have said that Obama should NOT send up a nominee – but should let the next president decide.

    Look, I know I don’t have cable TV, but this information still reaches those of us considered the unwashed masses.

  51. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Also, perhaps in 1986 I thought the Senate elections were important – today I look back and realize that they weren’t

    Figure out all the bad Obama stuff you want to throw in, come Jan 2017 we all will have survived his 8 yr term – just as the Dems lamented they had to endure and survive GWB and the GOP lamented the 8 yrs of Bill.

    Why do you get so worked up? Obama’s previous choices for SCOTUS, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan have been fine justices who serve the office well whether we agree or not.

    I realize they aren’t quite up to the level of Harriet Miers in qualifications – but hey, ya take what you can get.

    This too shall pass. 🙂

  52. Em says:

    “Thankfully I do not share your cynicism here in the 2016’s” …
    my assessment of vote counting doesn’t come from cynicism, rather from people who understand the equipment that does the processing, recording and counting, how easy it is to hack – knowing how to use the equipment – vote – is quite different from knowing how it works …

    “Meet with local Bernie supporters, start a dialog and get re-inspired at the voice you already have and take steps to lose your cynicism.”…
    as i said my assessment of vote counting shenanigans 🙂 doesn’t come from cynicism

  53. Em says:

    well, maybe i should take back that last comment as i am inclined to believe that there are within all the major political machines in this country people who are able, willing and anxious to tweak the vote counts …

  54. ( |o )====::: says:

    and that’s a working definition of “cynical”

  55. ( |o )====::: says:

    if I had that kind of “insider knowledge” I’d contact Fox News, MSNBC, PBS, The BBC…

  56. Anon says:

    Going into Year #8, Barack Obama’s 2nd term as president…

    Scott and Steve still suffer from Obama Derangement Syndrome.


  57. Em says:

    G, cynical as opposed to optimist would be correct – on the other hand, knowledge and proof are not interchangeable terms either… and there is the old thing called common sense… if it is Bernie v Donald we will have a very unique election this fall… but my cynicism says neither one will make it to the ballot as a Dem or a Rep… twill be interesting … maybe

    since this web-site’s reason for being is our Lord… i find the overall patterns developing now through the whole world very interesting in light of prophesy … not the Henny Penny prophets trying to get us to duck and cover as the sky falls, but events everywhere are very synchronized to the unfolding of history as predicted in scriptures … 1 year or 1,000? i don’t know – but THE King IS coming

  58. Jean says:

    This is a prayer that my congregation prayed this evening:

    “For Barack, for the government and those who protect us, that they may be upheld and
    strengthened in every good deed, let us pray to the Lord”

    I commend this prayer to everyone here.

  59. Depending on the pastor doing the liturgy, we pray for Obama and Jerry Brown by name.

  60. Em says:

    amen to the prayers – it has always been the tradition in the churches i have fellowshipped in to pray for those in authority over us … God doesn’t rearrange history for our convenience, but we are told to pray for our leaders for good reason, nonetheless, eh?

  61. On my FB feed this morning from Jordan Sekulow;

    “At the ACLJ, we’re demanding that our next President be the one to select the next Supreme Court justice and thus allow the American people to have a voice.”

    The chant from all those who Steve Wright would have us listen to is “Mr. President – stand down and ignore the Constitution!!”

    I prefer to say “Oh Boy! we are in for a wild ride, let’s hope the President doesn’t do something too wild – be let’s wait and see.”

  62. Anon says:

    thus allow the American people to have a voice.”

    The American people have already done that — it’s called a presidential election.

    Barack Obama won the last one, by 5 million votes.

    The people have spoken.

  63. Anon says:

    “The president is presumably elected by the people to carry out a program and altering the ideological directions of the court would seem to be a perfectly legitimate part of a presidential platform,” wrote McConnell, the chief legislative aide to Sen. Marlow Cook.
    “To that end, the Constitution gives to him the power to nominate.”

    — Mitch McConnell — Law Journal article

  64. Em says:

    Obama is following the Constitution? that’s a good thing, isn’t it?
    trouble is there is no way that this won’t be prime political fodder – on both sides…
    pray that Obama finds himself some statesmanship and finds a jurist with a strong mind and a strong desire to honor the underpinnings of our system of government
    but this is shaping up to be a year of Divine Judgement … or so it seems to me

  65. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    em – why would there be doubt that he would. His last 2 choices have turned out to be very good appointments.
    Justice Scalia spoke highly of Sonia Sotomayor during her nominating process and Elena Kagan hasn’t done anything to my knowledge to tilt the USA towards hell.

  66. Em says:

    MLD, my “cynicism” doesn’t come from Obama’s past appointments, rather from the pressure his own party will put on him to turn the political spotlight on this – force him to do everything possible to force the other side to be seen as obstructionist …

    note-i don’t know if it was Ohio or New Hampshire, but i heard Hillary declare that Obama would be an ideal candidate for the Supreme Court – that seemed odd as there wasn’t an opening …
    why would Obama want to be on the Supreme Court anyway? i’m betting he leaves the country – as soon as he hands the keys over to the next president… pure cynical conjecture on my part, of course 🙂

  67. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, he’s only 55, a constitutional lawyer and from all the hoopla folks make over an appointment, you would think this was the most powerful job in the world.

    So, Hillary gets elected and gets to make the choice as the GOP has called for and appoints Obama.

    The only thing that should matter in any appointment – is the person qualified — not that their beliefs differ from yours or mine – but are they qualified for the job.

  68. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    How in the world can his party pressure him – he is gone in 11 months no matter what. If anything, he can make the party sweat.

  69. Xenia says:

    I cringe when I think of the kind of person Mr. Obama might nominate but it’s his right and his job to make offer a nomination. Those who are demanding he shirk his responsibility are in the wrong.

  70. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Xenia – seriously, we know what kind of people he would nominate. As I said earlier and yesterday, look at his 2 previous choices – they are good justices

  71. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    But on a better note – I just went up to the CVS pharmacy and ran into Benny Hinn and his posse. We exchanged pleasantries (I decided not to proclaim him a heretic in public nor call down fire).
    Nice guy – but his posse … not to stereotype but all 4 of them could play alongside Kobe.

    I ran into him about 25 yrs ago at the South Coast Plaza with Dwight Thompson and Matt Crouch. I guess we’re buddies now.

  72. Xenia says:

    I was out and about today as well and I saw something very sweet. A very emotionally and mentally disabled young man was jerking and hopping and thumping his way down the street, smacking and hitting everything he could read and yelling gibberish. His hand was being tightly held by a man about his age who was softly singing to him, trying to calm him down.

    He ain’t heavy, he’s my brother.

  73. Xenia says:

    And right after that I encountered the street musician who was playing exquisite Mozart on his old violin. Then the wind blew his page and it was Bach! We had a good laugh.

  74. Steve Wright says:

    MLD – what does “qualified” mean in context of the SCOTUS?

    To me the issue is how one views the Constitution and if I was a Senator I would confirm or refuse based on that….

    Remember a Senator has to face the voters every six years…a President only faces them once max…a SCOTUS..never.

  75. Steve,
    “To me the issue is how one views the Constitution…”
    Can you tell me what the Constitution states about how it should be viewed?

    All Federal judges have a “view” on what the Constitution means and they have all sworn to uphold it.

    Let me ask – can you point to where in the Constitution it says that SCOTUS has reign over the Constitution? (I will give you a hint — it doesn’t.)

  76. Back to qualified – I would think it like any job that is at the top of the food chain. That you have demonstrated knowledge and competency along the way.

    Harriet Miers = Not qualified.

  77. “Remember a Senator has to face the voters every six years…”

    You know it is really sad that these guys hang on so long and “face” the voters so often.

    I posted a link @44 above about a 13 part series on the Constitution. Probably 12 -15 people on the panel. These were done in 1982 / 83 and Orin Hatch and Chris Dodd are on the panel. How long can these guys hang on?

    You should watch these;

    on a similar series of these a 12 part series (1988) on ethics you have Justice Scalia sitting next to Faye Wattlton (Planned Parenthood) and across from them C Everett Koop amongst the dozen panelists. Today we get only internet sound bites..

  78. Steve Wright says:

    MLD…I don’t even know what you want to argue about anymore.

    I was clear. Lots of people have a view about the Bible too, and how it is to be understood, and in situations where I have a vote, I vote no if they don’t agree with my view.

    Judge Breyer said the Constitution is not enough and they need to look to international law and the global opinion in his decisions……how long before sharia law might be included in that global opinion? It already has appeared in lower courts….

  79. Jean says:

    “All Federal judges have a “view” on what the Constitution means and they have all sworn to uphold it.”

    This is where the conservative B.S. gets a little rich. Who would have thought that the founders included high magazine assault rifles in the 2nd Amendment? Who would have thought that money was speech under the 1st Amendment? Who would have thought that hard core pornography is free speech?

  80. So, Ted Cruz could nominate a sharia guy also. You sound like Em.

    What is your opinion of Obama’s 2 previous selections? Aside from not standing politically eye to eye with them … were they qualified? If so, why would you suspect that Obama would make a poor section this time?

    As I said earlier justice Scalia spoke very highly of Justice Sotomayor.

  81. Steve Wright says:

    Well, the Republicans tried to get rid of Hatch…and almost succeeded. Tried to primary out Cochran too. The establishment made sure both failed. That’s why you have a candidate Trump…(among other reasons)

    Pat Leahy has been in the Senate since 1975.

  82. In that series I linked to the 1st show was on Executive Privilege and the 2nd on the War Powers Act.

    Back to the Constitution, the best I can figure, and I researched this many years ago, the Constitution does not grant the Supreme Court authority to rule – the Supreme Court took the power upon itself in Marbury v. Madison in 1803 (if my memory serves me correctly).

    So, going back before 1803 what was the “view” of the Constitution?

  83. Steve Wright says:

    Jean..conservative B.S.? That’s a rookie comment and highly partisan (and wrong when you throw porn in there as if conservatives support it – Reagan tried to outlaw porn you may recall using every loophole he could find)

    Scalia would be an excellent source to explain originalism to you, and its merits and that originalism does not deny newness in technology or other advances in the Republic.

  84. Oy, I don’t know what this world is coming to. First I run into Benny Hinn today and now I see an actual friend of mine J Warner Wallace is going on TBN’s Praise the Lord tonight.

  85. “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

    Does originalism include anything about the right to bear arms as being a part of the need for a militia? If you own these guns shouldn’t you be a part of a militia?

  86. Steve Wright says:

    Read Scalia (or someone else) MLD…if you want to educate yourself

  87. This is what always happens when ANY pastor gets involved in the political fray – the Gospel gets tossed down the toilet.

    And I mean any pastor – I don’t care if it is left or right — it is absolutely sinful.

  88. Jean says:

    “That’s a rookie comment and highly partisan (and wrong when you throw porn in there as if conservatives support it – Reagan tried to outlaw porn you may recall using every loophole he could find)”

    LOL – We’re all partisans, who are you trying to kid?

    Reagan was the President. We’re talking about the U.S. Supreme Court. So don’t throw straw men at us. What have the conservatives Justices done or tried to do in any cases dealing with hard core pornography?

  89. I wanted to hear your opinion.

    I also asked your opinion of Obama’s previous choices for justices – what did you think?

  90. Em says:

    MLD – my comments on the empty seat on the Supreme Court had only to do with political intrigue …you don’t think every event of note now is considered by these folk working on campaigns: “how can we turn this to our advantage?”
    this one is a plum and Obama and the Senate, too, will be statesman for the history books if the seat is filled with sobriety and due process

    i wasn’t opining on what qualifies a man to sit there or what Obama would do in a vacuum … or any factor other than politics in motion

    BTW – even though i would extend condolences to anyone who did sound like me, you probably aren’t the person to tell someone that they sound like me as you’ve never understood anything i’ve posted that i can recall 🙂

  91. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Em, it was only a comparison of the similarities of the cynical comments that seemed to be spoken out of fear vs smarts.

    His cynical comments mimicked yours,

  92. Jean says:

    “why would Obama want to be on the Supreme Court anyway? i’m betting he leaves the country – as soon as he hands the keys over to the next president… pure cynical conjecture on my part, of course”

    Why would the President leave the country? He will have two beautiful daughters going to college, numerous speaking and teaching opportunities, his friends are here. I don’t get you at all.

  93. Anon says:

    Isn’t Jean an attorney?

  94. Michael says:


    What difference would that make?

  95. I think it is important to look over Obama’s track record in the appoints. No one seems to want to step up a state an opinion of previous justices – so I will lower the bar.

    Can anyone name an appointment to the Federal bench that has turned out poorly. Not the appointment of someone who may disagree with your point of view but one you can look at and say “man, that guy / gal since he / she has been appointed to this position has really done a poor job and let me list his poor judicial decisions.”

    If you can’t find fault with Obama’s appointments why is there such fear about this new appointment coming up.

  96. Michael says:


    I think I like the way you think about these things.
    I haven’t studied the matter enough to speak with any intelligence at all…but you are making a lot of sense to me.

  97. Kevin H says:

    “If you can’t find fault with Obama’s appointments why is there such fear about this new appointment coming up.”

    I can only speak for myself but these are my thoughts. I am not studied enough to know how good or not good of a job all of the Obama appointed judges, including the couple Justices, have done. They very well may be properly performing their jobs even though I would likely disagree with the ideology of many of them. So I cannot speak in an educated fashion in this manner.

    Although it is not my only concern, my greatest concern comes down to Roe v. Wade. While certainly not the only travesty, I consider that ruling the greatest travesty in the current times of our country. If there is ever going to be any chance to overturn it, then there would need to be enough Justices on the Court who believe it should be. I think it is highly unlikely that any Obama-appointed Justice will think Roe v. Wade should be overturned.

    And so that is my fear. I believe the rule of law should allow Obama to appoint another Justice. I just really wish he would not have gotten another opportunity to do so.

  98. Kevin H, that train left the station long ago. Do you think even Ted Cruz would appoint justices solely on the hope they would overturn Roe v Wade?

    Since R v W we have had how many GOP Presidents? From ’73 to ’01 we had Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush, Bush – in those 28 yrs – 20 yrs had GOP Presidents.

    So? We got bupkas, nothing, nada

  99. Kevin H says:


    No, I don’t think that Ted Cruz or any potential Republican president would appoint justices solely on how they think about Roe v. Wade. At the very least, however, I think the chances of them being against the Roe v. Wade ruling would be much greater than any Obama-appointed justice.

    And, of course, I know that having a Republican president and Republican-appointed justices is far from any guarantee that Roe v. Wade gets overturned. But being that I see legalized abortion as the greatest travesty in our country today, I cannot stop from hoping and praying someday that changes. And I believe the chances are greater with Republican appointed justices. I am not a single-issue voter. But this is the most weighted issue for me, especially in regards to the presidential office that gets to appoint the justices.

  100. Overturning Roe v Wade does not outlaw abortion. California had legalized abortion long before Roe.
    If Roe got overturned will Pennsylvania outlaw abortion? Will anyone miss a single abortion appointment?

  101. Kevin H says:

    No, overturning Roe v. Wade would not outlaw abortion nationwide. But it is a needed step to possibly ever get there. Without it ever being overturned, abortion cannot be made illegal anywhere in the country. If it does get overturned, it gives the power back to the states to decide. And so the next step in the process is to hope and pray abortion is made illegal in the states. Some states may do it relatively quickly. Other states would obviously take much more work and hope and prayer.

    Again, I know it is unlikely that this all happens. That does not mean I should give up hope when I believe legalized abortion to be a horrendous evil.

  102. I just say that perhaps we should turn our attention as Christians towards teaching our daughters not to abort. Christian young ladies abort at almost the same rate as the secular crowd.

    I can think of only 3 states that might even consider outlawing abortion – South Dakota, Utah and Texas.

  103. Kevin H says:

    I agree we should teach our daughters not to abort. I just don’t think it’s an either/or. I think it’s a both/and.

  104. Here is a good article from the Federalist to those who think it is most important to burn down the establishment GOP by electing Trump and it’s relationship to Roe v Wade.

  105. Jean says:

    “I just say that perhaps we should turn our attention as Christians towards teaching our daughters not to abort.”

    That can begin when our daughters and other young women believe that the church is a place where they are welcome, loved and treated with the same grace that God gives the adulterer, drunk, swindler, porn addict, spouse abuser, etc.

    Nadia’s church is called House For All Sinners and Saints. I may not like everything she teaches, but I love the name “For All Sinners”

  106. Kevin H says:

    Trump is the one Republican I cannot vote for. Even in the general election. I have stated that on this blog before. It goes far beyond just the abortion issue. But if Trump were elected president, I have no faith it would be of any help in overturning Roe v. Wade.

  107. Josh the Baptist says:

    Roe v. Wade is like the Conservative silver bullet. It will never get overturned. Trying to eliminate abortion in that manner has proven to be a really bad strategy. I’m afraid MLD is right. Healing our abortion problem will be slow and personal.

  108. Jean,
    Hmmm, funny you should go there. I was speaking more as Christian parents teaching our daughters not to abort. I don’t want to hand off that responsibility to the church any more than I want to hand it off to the government.

  109. and before any of the ladies come on this morning – there are things that we need to be teaching our sons.

  110. Jean says:

    I agree with you to a certain extent. However, two additional points:

    (1) Not all young women have Christian parents; and
    (2) The Church has a stake in abortion, because it is a spiritual issue.

    So, parents have a role (the primary and most important role), but the Church also has a role, and perhaps the primary role for some young women.

  111. Josh the Baptist says:

    Certainly churches could be helpful in eliminating abortions.

  112. Kevin H says:


    I know it looks bleak in regards to Roe v. Wade being overturned, but I will not say “never”. The laws of our land once allowed great evils such as slavery and segregation but those things were eventually overturned. Yes, it also took the change of many hearts for that to happen. And so that is why I very much agree that we should be working on a personal level to persuade people in how they think about abortion, and most especially provide help to those who would be considering abortions.

    I just don’t think it is an either/or. What if those who fought against slavery and segregation only worked to change people’s hearts but never tried to do anything about it legally? Yes, more people would have stopped owning slaves or participating in segregation. However, the laws of the land would have still allowed those who didn’t have a change in heart to continue in their practices. I see abortion in the same manner.

  113. Josh the Baptist says:

    None of these candidates are going to make any move to overturn Roe vs. Wade. Even if the magic bullet landed and RvW was overturned, you still have abortion all over the country like MLD already pointed out.

    The problem is that there is such a great demand for abortion. As long as the demand is there, a supply will follow. If you look at the numbers under different administrations, Republican or Democrat has never mattered much at all.


  114. filbertz says:

    perhaps republicans truly embracing a culture of life would help–that is, not being so hawkish militarily. Remember the funny little song “Pants on the Ground?” Too many repubs are “boots on the ground” in their mindsets–like bloodshed is the answer to ISIS and any other foreign policy issues. I’m the proud father of three sons who have served or are serving in the military, and I am well aware of the damage done to the psyche of a soldier on the ‘victorious’ side, and the long-lasting hatred and festering vengefulness on the ‘losing’ side, especially in the middle east. I see little correspondence to the positions of republican candidates and the proclamations of Jesus Christ. Both sides in politics will court the religious vote, but neither side deserves it.

  115. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I think filbertz puts it well.
    I am pro life which includes anti abortion, anti war (although not a pacifist) and anti death penalty.

    When I listen to the GOPers I do not hear one of them speaking in “pro life” terms.

  116. Steve Wright says:

    Pro-life is used to counter “pro-choice” in the political lexicon. It speaks to the battle for minds in making clear it is not simply about being “anti” something. How silly to let the abortionists dictate the language and have to run around saying we are “anti-choice” – choice is the most diminutive word imaginable to describe the evil of shedding the innocent blood in the womb to continue sex without consequences in our society. And yes, to end his/her life. Thus, pro-life. (I reserve the rape, incest, life of mother argument that is usually the counter despite the very, very small numbers of abortions that are due to those three events)

    Now, to take a term from a specific political context to use it to somehow suggest hypocritical or conflicting political positions is tiresome and foolish.

    The death penalty is to be reserved for MURDERERS, both in the Bible and in American government – it is a pro-life measure that values human life. Yes, we can make sure it only is applied in certain specific cases but to dismissively say anyone who supports the death penalty is a hypocrite if they oppose abortion is ludicrous and would not get past the 9th grade debate club.

    No need to discuss just war doctrine here. Nobody, and I mean nobody, would say they are “pro-war” in some general sense. They may be “pro” on certain specific wars and others may oppose those wars.

    But in any war that is supported in the just war doctrine it is in response once more to murderous evil men who must be stopped and who are stopped and served earthly justice by others who fight them, and defeat them. It too, like the death penalty, is a pro-life, man is created in the image of God with certain inalienable rights policy.

  117. Josh the Baptist says:

    I believe most Republicans are sincere in their pro-life stance, I just think they have followed a very bad strategy.

  118. Jean says:

    The death penalty can be seen potentially as pro-life only if it can be proven to be a deterrent. Guess what? It isn’t. If Republicans really wanted to be pro-life, they’d play ball on stricter gun background checks, waiting periods and mental health efforts. The barest of minimums.

  119. Josh the Baptist says:

    What happened? I use to be the only slightly liberal guy in these parts. Everybody stole my schtick.

  120. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve, the easy one first – I will bet in a town hall meeting if you asked any of the candidates to explain the just war doctrine – that not a one of them would get it right.

    As to being pro capital punishment, I don’t know how anyone can be so after the Menendez case in the early 90s. The racial and economic injustices rendered through capital punishment make it null and void – in fact American capital punishment may actually be unholy.

    As for phraseology I do not let anyone set the standard for me and will correct anyone who tries to override my term anti abortion with anti choice (I am open to choice on many subjects like what I will have for lunch a little later.)

  121. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    You cannot say the death penalty is not a deterrent. We see only those that it did not deter as they did kill someone. Perhaps though for every murder there were 100 people who did not kill because they did not want to face the death penalty. We don’t see them, we don’t hear from them, they never answer a poll saying “yes I was going to kill my girl friend but she wasn’t worth facing the death penalty.

    I guess I am more against carrying out the death penalty because we can’t do it right, than I am against having the death penalty on the books.

  122. Michael says:

    Fil nailed it…

  123. Cash says:

    I agree with MLD on this one. The death penalty is not justly applied in this country. It therefore, should be abolished. It’s known that a disproportionate number of blacks and other minorities receive the death penalty for their crimes. It isn’t just, so I don’t see how it can be holy.

  124. Michael says:

    I would say that there is a large contingent in the ruling class that is “pro-war” because they make huge profits off war.

    The current craze to militarize the border has very little to do with border security and much to do with providing these same folks a domestic market.

    I’ll be going now… 🙂

  125. Jean says:

    Actually MLD, if the death penalty was a deterrent, we would expect the murder rates per capita to be less in the death penalty states. The statistics show the opposite. The culture of death created in States which have the death penalty seem to only stoke the homicide rates.

    From the Death Penalty Information Center:

    “For 2013, the average Murder Rate of Death Penalty states was 4.4 [per 100,000 people], while the average Murder Rate of States without the Death Penalty was 3.4”

    However, I also am against the death penalty for the reasons you give, which are the injustices in the criminal justice system.

  126. Michael says:

    Back in the seventies we had a horrific crime happen here in the valley.

    When the perp was caught a mob surrounded the courthouse and wanted to take care of the execution with no cost to the state.

    I may or may not have been in that mob, close to the front.

    Oregon outlawed the death penalty soon thereafter and justice was denied.

    As I’ve grown older, I see what MLD sees…we can’t this right and if we can’t get it right we need to stop it completely.

    Leave room for the wrath of God.

  127. Jean says:

    “Leave room for the wrath of God.”

    And the Gospel of God.

  128. Kevin H says:

    I just wanted to jump back in for a moment to clarify my thoughts a little further since the conversation has turned from abortion to all things “pro-life”.

    I readily admit there are significant problems on the Republican side, too. I am not a rah-rah, anybody who is a good Christian must always vote Republican type of guy. I don’t really like either side. Remember the first line in my post ‘ – “I hate politics.”

    In my personal view, I weight abortion as the most important issue. That certainly does not mean that I don’t think any other issue is important. And it doesn’t mean I always vote Republican or for the supposed “pro-life” candidate.

    And I also think the most effective way to reduce abortions is work with and help people on a personal level. I just don’t give up hope that something can also be done from a legal level, too. Certainly there have been measures put in place over the years on a legal level, both from a state and national level, that have placed restrictions on abortions that it would be hard to argue have not saved *some* innocent infant lives.

    There are plenty of “political” issues that we as Christians should be concerned about. For me, abortion gets weighted the greatest. Your mileage may vary.

  129. Michael says:


    The murderer “converted” in prison.

    He then began to receive visits and gifts from the holy in the valley.

    I knew more than they did, more than anyone in the general public knew, about what he had actually done.

    Hell is too good for that man.

    Nobody that worked that case, from the detectives to the physicians that examined the bodies, ever recovered from it.

    God may have forgiven him, may have saved his soul…but I don’t want to know if He did.

  130. Michael says:

    Viewing abortion or any other moral issue from a political view is going to fail.

    In our country a majority can vote to change laws…and it will be difficult in most places to find a voting majority opposed to the practice.
    We do need a new strategy and I think only the church can provide it.

    The church here does a very good job with what it has…but most people are not really engaged in that battle.

  131. Cash says:

    President Eisenhower, in his farewell address to the nation, warned us of the “military industrial complex” and how it could produce perpetual war. That is what has happened now as these huge corporations continue to reap huge benefits from war. The “Masters of War” as Bob Dylan called them in his famous song, are corrupt to the core. The U.S. spends more money on the military than any other expenditure, I believe. Fil got it right when he talked about the consequences of this perpetual war on the troops who actually have to do the fighting. Those who would be so quick to put “boots on the ground” should make it their own boots and the boots of their own children as well.

  132. Jean says:

    You seem a little emotional about the issue, so I won’t rattle your cage further. I will just ask you to consider whether Christians have the authority to withhold that which is not ours, and conversely whether we have been commissioned to proclaim forgiveness in Christ’s name to all people?

    One of my concerns is that if we try to claw the proclamation back from just one person, who will be next, and how long before someone isn’t trying to claw it back from you or me?

  133. Kevin H says:

    If we view abortion or any moral issue from *only* a political view, I agree it will only fail.

    I’ve already stated that I think the most effective way to combat it is on a personal level. Be that from the church or crisis-pregnancy centers and the like or in family or in one-in-one interaction. In some ways this could be seen as combatting abortion on a cultural level, not just involving the political side. I just don’t see it as an either/or. Because even in situations where hearts may not have yet been changed, if there are legal restrictions or even bannings in place, it will save some additional lives.

  134. Michael says:


    I’m very emotional about it…those days changed my life and life in the valley forever.

    I completely understand what you’re saying…I even agree with what you’re saying.

    However, if I see on judgment day it was a false conversion, I’ll be more than happy to throw the bastard in the fire.

    The great Steve Brown often tells of his own conflicting emotions when he heard that after Jeffrey Dahmers death they found Steve’s books in his cell….

  135. Jean says:

    “The great Steve Brown often tells of his own conflicting emotions when he heard that after Jeffrey Dahmers death they found Steve’s books in his cell….”

    True story…I was thinking a lot about Judas Iscariot yesterday. Boy did he carry some baggage with him to the other side.

    I sometimes wonder and even fear that in a moment in time, tempted in just the right way, what might I be capable of doing? I look back and see times in the past where I was tempted with grave sins and teetered, but did not fall. Could it happen again? Would God again stand me up? I just don’t know, but pray for His mercy. A big fat heaping helping of His mercy.

  136. Em says:

    Jean @94 … i don’t think Obama is a bad man by the world’s definition of ‘bad.’ however, as i’ve watched him in office i don’t think his first loyalty is to this nation… he’s an idealist bearing a grudge – that’s fine for a civil rights activist, but not for the leader of the nation IMHO

    as far as the Supreme Court is concerned, was it ever intended to adjudicate the stuff that is making the headlines today? stuff that in times past was not thought of in terms of legality? and some of this mess past and looming must be laid at the door of religion – it seems obvious that some aspects of the Faith cannot be adjudicated in the courts of men

    when the Pope was quoted (perhaps incorrectly) yesterday that one can’t be a Christian and build a wall … i liked Trump’s comeback to the effect that the Vatican IS a walled city.

  137. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    This may be timely in this conversation of what converted turds look like when they become Christian. I will include myself
    I just found a quote on my FB from what is turning into my favorite source of theology discussion. Daniel Emery Price and his crew at Christ Hold Fast are having a 3 day conference in Orlando Fl – his quote
    “I outright reject a Christianity that is about creating a people who look like they don’t need Christ.”

    Whoa – does that not identify the sin of the American Church – to make people think they are good?

  138. Michael says:


    If they have those lectures streaming anywhere, get us the link…

  139. Jean says:

    “as i’ve watched him in office i don’t think his first loyalty is to this nation”


    Who do you think is his first loyalty? But, basically, you’re saying he is violating his oath of office. That’s a serious charge. I hope you’ve thought about what you’re saying and can back it up.

    I think just the opposite. I think that based on what he inherited, the President has done an above average job. He’s kept the country safe, revitalized the economy, and has served this country faithfully.

    I completely understand that in the bubble and echo chamber that envelopes a lot of conservative “Christianity” and its doppelgangers FoxNews/talk radio and right wing politics (is that a sort of trinity?), the President has been dehumanized with all sorts of slander. So, if you inhabit that bubble, you probably think I might as well be speaking Farsi.

  140. Michael says:

    The wall…
    I’ve pretty much decided to refrain from comment until we spend a few billion to get it finished…and see the results.

    Then I will be about as obnoxious as I possibly can be.

    Someone needs to note the cost of produce and veggies before and after…

    The cartels wish we would hurry up and get it done…it will be very profitable for them.

  141. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael – let me see if I can find the link – I know the do live stream.
    Attached is the flyer – note 2 things
    1.) Steve Brown is a participant
    2.) The host church is the one where Tullian Tchividjian landed – I think this is his job to put these things together.

  142. Michael says:


    Steve Brown and Preston Sprinkle… that is going to be great.

  143. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    here is the live stream link.

    This is like a giant convergence of the old Liberate, Christ Hold Fast and the 1517 Legacy Project

  144. Michael says:

    Damn…I already missed my guys…

    I love to see that combination of traditions, though.

  145. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I think this started yesterday so they may have already come and gone. It runs through tomorrow.

  146. Em says:

    working my way down the thread and must say that the reason for the death penalty should be in payment for the crime, if one takes the Bible seriously, not to deter someone else from murdering some other person…
    personally, if i saw you stalk and kill someone, i’d like to think you’d die for the crime… if i was sure i’d seen what i thot i saw…
    however, the world we’re living in today makes it very difficult to be sure that we’ve got the right person (we may think we’re sure) and the best of intentions may administer it to the wrong person… serious business – kind of like gossip which can be a form of murder
    but i’m with the group that says a murderer’s soul can be saved…

  147. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    the live stream is back on Chad Bird is speaking.

  148. Em says:

    Jean, i read your 141 – all the bubbles and doppelgangers and echo chambers … you speak Farsi? i’m impressed 🙂

  149. filbertz says:

    a wall on the border would cost billions and be completely ineffective. If El Chapo taught us anything, it was how well our friends south of the border build tunnels…Perhaps tearing down the wall between the partisans in DC and building a consensus immigration plan would be much cheaper and far more effective…

  150. Em says:

    i wonder if we could get Mexico to pay for our crumbling roads and rotting bridges instead of a wall?

  151. filbertz says:

    I used to be staunchly pro-death penalty. I’m now 180 degrees. The issue for me was never deterrence, because it was a punishment for an act committed, not one yet to be. Instead, it was the laundry list of over-turned sentences and commuted verdicts due to bad information, faulty science, corrupt police & prosecutors, and mistaken ‘eye-witnesses.’ Too many victims of miscarried justice taints the process. Beyond a reasonable doubt has become too tall a standard.

  152. Michael says:

    Let’s deal with some facts.

    The Mexican migration has been at a net negative since 2012.
    A crappy economy is far more effective than a wall.
    The Republican candidates dare not speak this fact out loud…it ruins the whole narrative.

    Mexico isn’t going to pay a dime for the wall… anyone that believes otherwise is utterly bereft of any knowledge about this issue.

    Having said all that I will say no more, save this.

    I believe one of these guys will get elected and we will build this monstrosity.
    The people have been convinced that it is the barrier to all manner of evil.
    What it is in reality is a concrete symbol…of what, I’ll let others decide.
    The results will be staggeringly awful…and both countries will pay for it for years to come.

  153. Em says:

    #153 – yes, i agree … even though the Biblical principle is a sound one, i don’t think God ever intended a post script: “even if some innocent people die by mistake”

  154. Michael says:


    All I can get is a recording…but they did sell me a book. 🙂

  155. Em says:

    #154 – i don’t think you’re right on this one, Michael … although there’d be some good paying construction jobs for a while… the Mexicans have some great wall builders… the thought just occurred to me, what if Michael is right and the Mexicans do build the wall, but they use their people to do the work? lol

    i used to thing we’d see a Clinton v Bush election and then i wondered if it wouldn’t be Sanders v Trump and right now i haven’t a clue… MIchelle is eligible isn’t she? hmmm

  156. Michael says:


    I’m not sure what you think I’m wrong about, but time will tell.

  157. Em says:

    Michael, 🙂 i don’t think the wall will ever get built

    and the more i think on it … i think a Hillary, Michelle ticket could get elected .. a woman Pres. and a Black Woman Vice Pres. and both married to ex Pres.s ! wow wow wow

  158. Jean says:

    “A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?” Luke 7:41-42 ESV

    Even on the green mile.

  159. Michael says:


    Trust me, I hope I’m wrong.

    My deep sense is that the decent, common person this country is angry beyond anybody understanding.

    They have been force fed beliefs they reject from the left and lies about who to blame from the right and they are now going to get their pound of flesh.

    I predict the biggest electoral turnout in years and it will be conservative.

    I don’t blame them a bit, but they will be shocked when they find the flesh is their own.

  160. Jean says:

    “I predict the biggest electoral turnout in years and it will be conservative.”

    I would like to make just one plea to the pastors and evangelists here: At least 40% of this nation is progressive politically, and 10s of millions of people are happy with their situation. Should you bump into this enormous portion of our nation, please build bridges to Christ by not tearing these people down.

  161. Michael says:


    I would echo that plea…

  162. Jean says:

    Thank you Michael. You are a gracious man.

  163. Em says:

    #162 – that plea might be appropriate to direct at us uncouth pew sitters, but i can’t think of a single pastor among those who posts here that needs to be so admonished

  164. Em says:

    “I predict the biggest electoral turnout in years and it will be conservative. I don’t blame them a bit, but they will be shocked when they find the flesh is their own.”

    it will be an interesting election… from what i’m reading Sanders has really spoken to the youngsters, who are, as they always have, hoping to bring in that brave new world… if the young ones turn out… hmmm, i can’t really get a sense of where this will go – where God will permit us to go

    God keep us and keep us focused in what are very distracting times now

  165. Anon says:

    Not to worry, Jean.

    We’re easily lookin’ at another 4 with a Democratic president.

    The Dems already have a floor of around 210 electoral votes.

    It’s in the interests of corporate media, etc. to make it look like it could be a close race. You know, man bites dog. If it doesn’t look like there’s a fight, they move on to the next shiny

  166. Em says:

    would it be strange to pray for an awakening in the corporate world? there have to be many good people playing the game – it is the nature of the beast to jockey for success which translates m-o-n-e-y… but couldn’t we pray that they will wake up and realize that they’re using the furniture to heat the house and eventually the house will be empty?

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.