Linkathon!

Nonnie says:

Julie’s article on Saeed is very good. He is showing his true colours. I hope he can get real help and begin see his need to learn how to love his wife.
I hope this sad story can have a redemptive ending, as I know nothing is impossible with God, but until he is willing to change and admit his abuse, I’m in her corner to remain strong and safe and keep her boundaries.

I hope Graham stays out of it. Does anyone know if Saeed is still considered a “pastor” at CC Boise? Is he on their payroll?

Josh the Baptist says:

The things Alan has written recently on mental health have all been very touching.

Nonnie says:

Truly, Alan is more than a conqueror! Beautiful article by a man with a pastor’s heart.

dswoager says:

The “God’s Chosen Nation” is a good one. Definitely a subject I have experience bringing up in the wrong company. 😉

Josh the Baptist says:

After reading the article, I don’t get that politics are coming up at that church either. It was a weird article in a non-news way. Surprised that guy is still going down there at Redemption.

Xenia says:

I have never heard a political sermon in my entire 64 years of church attendance, unless the pastor mentioned that abortion and homosexuality were sins. And not too often even then.

Oh wait…. there was that stint with the Episcopalians…

Xenia says:

Thank you for the article about mental illness, Alan.

I’ve had two mentally ill people latch onto me in an unwholesome way in my life. One pretty much met the definition of stalker; one is in my life right now. If a pastor doesn’t know what to “do” with such people, I sure don’t, either. I string them along, trying not to say anything that will provoke them to do something drastic. They like to tell me I am their only friend and if I abandon them, who knows what will happen…. They talk nonsense at me and I don’t know whether I should go along with it, so as not to rile them up, or to attempt to correct them. Attempting to correct them (No, your husband isn’t trying to kill you) makes them more agitated. But if I go along with what they say, I feel like I am confirming them in their false beliefs. So I nod and try to change the subject but they only have one subject….

The stalker, I had to finally block and refuse all contact. She was one of the most vicious people I have ever known. The current lady…. She wants to move in with me. She likes my life; she wants to have it for herself. Sometimes I don’t answer the phone or her emails and I feel guilty all day. When the phone rings lately I jump out of my skin.

How to be a friend (or at least, helpful) to someone who wants to suck all your life out of you? I feel the “You are the only friend I have” line is deliberately manipulative, but can they help themselves? I do not know.

But dealings with these women has caused me many sleepless nights and if I were there pastor or priest I could envision myself hiding under the desk, too.

Good article, Alan.

Josh the Baptist says:

TON of experience with mental illness. Too much. Family history, and I myself have been treated for depression for the last 18 years, (I would argue that I was healed 7 or 8 years ago, but I still take my medicine. Coming off is too hard.)

I’m glad that people are talking about it. It was a shameful part of my life for so long. The other thing I’d like to see us talk more about is mental disabilities. For the last few years, I’ve been working closely with 3 developmentally disabled adults. To a large degree, I’m at a loss. What to do, what to expect…etc. It’s a tough ministry, and very few churches seem to care about this group of people.

Cash says:

Xenia,

I think what you are describing happens to a lot of people. As a sufferer myself, my approach with mental illness is first to educate myself on exactly what it is I’m dealing with. If someone is stalking you, that’s clearly dangerous and inappropriate and cannot be allowed to continue. There is the chance also that the person can see Christ in you and is drawn to Him. Alan described it perfectly when he said it is “parsing..” there is much nuance involved and I don’t think Christ expects us all to be experts in mental illness, but He does expect us to be compassionate to the sick. And there are many many sick folks out there who need Jesus’ healing love. But again, there are people who are called to that ministry I think and people who may not be. But we are all called to minister to those God allows to come into our lives. A very difficult subject indeed.

Xenia says:

I have the habit of being fascinated by unusual people. I enjoy listening to their unique takes on the world. I will listen for hours to conspiracy theorists. Sometimes this backfires on me.

Erunner says:

Thanks for posting the message from Steve Brown. An honest man with a heart for the lost and no agenda. Hit home.

Em says:

Jean’s #22 is so compassionate and sound that i hate to post anything else…

i’ve just come off of skimming the chosen nation link
God is a God of history someone said and i believe it – nothing happens against His specific will among the nations… has the United States served to influence nations during our 300 or so years on the planet? i think we have… i think that God has used the U.S. in many ways…

the ebb and flow of dominant cultures through the ages is fascinating and i hope someone qualified to do so writes a book someday … or we can just read prophesy and ponder, i guess

Muff Potter says:

Good article on Scalia. There are others out there too. One in particular struck me as edifying. The one in which Scalia’s friendship with Ginsberg transcended ideology and politics. Scalia also broke with his fellow ‘conservatives’ when he spoke up for Sotomayor’s confirmation based solely on her qualifications and mettle in jurisprudence.
Men like Scalia are few and far between.

Babylon's Dread says:

Thank you Michael for the link and much thanks for kind words. I will get more controversial as I flesh out my dance with medicine and charisms as means of coping and conquering.

j2theperson says:

***I eally wish Julianne would stay out of two peoples lives. Whether its couples counseling or individual counseling is really none of our business.***

Both Naghmeh and Saeed have publicly posted about it which means that they have both made it public and made it our business. And particularly insofar as this involves domestic abuse, inappropriate, wrong, and dangerous mindsets should be pointed out and corrected publicly because there are millions of other women currently experiencing domestic violence and abuse who should be told what is a productive way to deal with it and what is counterproductive. Likewise, there are millions of well-meaning and not-so-well-meaning people out there who have no education or experience in dealing with people perpetrating or experiencing domestic violence and it would be helpful for them to know what the actual educated professionals recommend as opposed to trying to stumble along and offer advice based on no knowledge.

And, quite simply put, nobody is going to “stop it” in this situation. In fact, the only person you could make “stop it” is yourself, and it is more than easy to not read any more articles, posts, or newstories about Saeed or Naghmeh or to comment on the same.

JTK says:

Dreadly commenting on drugs and tongues. Insert pic of Michael Jackson eating popcorn

Julie Anne says:

I really wish Julianne would stay out of two peoples lives. Whether its couples counseling or individual counseling is really none of our business. Taking sides online in a marriage debate is fruitless. This doesn’t mean I’m on Franklin’s side either. They should all stop it.

Sorry, Andrew. I can’t and won’t. When I see a survivor being publicly thrown under the bus, and have the ability to defend them, I will. I know what it’s like to be silenced, to not be believed. We must advocate for victims. I believe Christ would.

And this is far more than taking sides – – this is bringing the discussion of domestic violence to the table. This is about challenging the church and pastors to deal with domestic violence appropriately. There have been many people who have mentioned that they never knew it was wrong to have couples counseling when there is abuse present in a relationship.

Another wonderful thing that has occurred is many wives who have been in harmful abusive marriages are watching how she handles her own abuse. Because Naghmeh is under good counseling and has made very wise boundaries with regard to Saeed, she is teaching many by her actions. You can see for yourself on Naghmeh’s Facebook wall.

And Franklin needs to butt out, period. He needs to quit using them for his personal gain.

Andrew says:

Julianne, I am all for you talking about domestic violence in general and bringing this to the church’s attention. That I agree with you on. Also, I agree Franklin needs to butt out as well and stay out of the conversation. What I disagree with is Saaed and Naghmeh using the internet to settle their problems. I think its wise for you and Franklin to not take sides. Not that I don’t agree with you Julianne or Naghmeh but since I know this way will never change anyone’s hardened hearts.

Andrew says:

Julianne wrote:

“……couples counseling gives the abuser multiple opportunities to manipulate the situation and triangulate – get the counselor to side with him against the victim.”

Very true. Ironically, social media counseling is far worse. In social media counseling, the social media author (blog, press, radio, TV, etc..) often takes the role of the counselor. The abuser tries to Triangulate the social media in this scenario – to get the entire reading or listening audience to their side.

Steve Wright says:

I think Andrew’s point is that both sides in this are manipulating. That was my point about Naghmeh’s facebook earlier. And why they both need to stop if they really care.

Example – Julie Anne comments about those pictures Saeed posted of him and the kids being a manipulating tool…fine. No argument. Except Naghmeh already did the same thing when the news broke about her not joining Saeed…making her and the kids, without Saeed her new (and current) profile pic. with 10,000 plus likes.

Like I said, they need to get on with the divorce and get off of the spotlight

Steve Wright says:

If I can add one thing. Michael Newnham is an advocate for many. He is a good advocate, because first and foremost he is a journalist. I’ve seen it over the years many times, including in an issue involving me. As a journalist, he seeks to know the whole story, get both sides, and on more than one occasion has reversed course when further facts were known. Even at great personal cost.

The world needs advocates. The danger of the internet is that it is easy to be an advocate without first being a journalist.

Andrew says:

I echo Steve’s words too. Michael you are a good advocate and journalist.

I understand the dynamic that is going on. First I’m not sure I agree with you that Saeed Abedina as wife beater is not worth a small fortune in and off itself to some people nitch market. The story certainly drove a lot of attention to Julianne web site and I’m saddened that it probably will stay that way.

I think Franklin is about as guilty as they come. I’m just not going to let Julianne off the hook so easily. Two wrongs don’t make a right and it will NEVER help these two poor souls.

Attack Franklin all you want. Attack the ACLJ all you want. They are as guilty as sin in this. No argument from me. But Julianne is making things worse for these two in my humble opinion and what is scary is teaching other women to do the same thing.

Andrew says:

Michael I commend you for that. Julianne is acting as marriage counselor for these two although she gave us all the reasons why “couples counseling” won’t work. Her tactic is fraught with error and no fruit will come of this other than ending this marriage in divorce. As Steve said, not much more to say.

Andrew says:

Michael I understand this concept of not recommending “couples counseling” where there is abuse. No argument from me there. This is good sound advice.

However, I guarantee you all these experts on abuse and the Christian counseling Education foundation, etc.. where Julianne is getting her expert advice on abuse would NEVER ever in a million years recommend anyone to put their marriage on display in the public eye like this. Julianne should repent and stop using this story to tickle her audience’s ears and using it to her advantage.

Julie Anne says:

Andrew, please refer to me as JA so I don’t have to see my name misspelled – I’m fine with JA. Thanks.

Someone asked me on my blog if I thought Naghmeh should seek a divorce and I clearly responded that that is not my decision to make and I would never do that for anyone. However, I will share what I have learned from abuse experts (and I cited links in my article) so they can come to their own conclusions.

Before anyone does that I would at least recommend private “couples counseling” as a last resort.

Sure, couples counseling for normal marital issues. But once abuse is in a marriage, it is not really a marriage issue, but an abuse issue. I quoted from experts on why couples counseling should not be used in this situation. Why are you interested in doing something that could cause further harm to this couple?

Julianne is acting as marriage counselor for these two although she gave us all the reasons why “couples counseling” won’t work. Her tactic is fraught with error and no fruit will come of this other than ending this marriage in divorce.

I have not acted as a marriage counselor. She has her own private counselors who understand abuse very well.

Naghmeh’s story represents many others in the church. It’s important that the church learn how to respond to abuse. They have failed in this area and have put women and children in harm’s way by their response of making an idol of the institution of marriage before the safety and well-being of human lives. (When there is a pattern of chronic abuse to a wife, many times it will escalate to the children as well. When children are present in the home with any kind of abuse, physical, emotional, verbal, it is harmful and damaging to them – whether they personally experience it or not.)

It’s important to notice Andrew’s stance. Rather than act concerned about Naghmeh, he shoots the messenger and has pity on Saeed by calling him a poor soul. This takes attention off the problem of the real issue of abuse.

Two wrongs don’t make a right and it will NEVER help these two poor souls.

In reality, Saeed is a poor soul, not in the way Andrew sees it, but because he has chosen to violate his marriage vows and abuse his wife, and lead everyone on to believe he is a true Christian hero. That is pathetic.

Julie Anne says:

Julianne should repent and stop using this story to tickle her audience’s ears and using it to her advantage.

Use it to my advantage? How is it benefiting me exactly?

I do know that it has opened the doors of communication for women who are living with abusers and now have greater understanding about appropriate response to abuse and what they can do to ensure their safety and the safety of their children. If that is the advantage of which you are referring, then absolutely, I’m using it to my advantage, and I’ll continue to do so.

Julie Anne says:

Andrew, I will never repent for exposing the truth. What a foolish thing to say.

Andrew says:

JA, you are not exposing truth. Did you know that love covers a multi-tude of sins. Question, Is it loving to bring up sins from 10 years ago just for the fun of it so you can expose the truth? What a foolish thing to say that you are just exposing truth.

Julie Anne says:

JA, its benefiting you cause its driving lots of traffic to your web site.

And helping victims of abuse. What would God think about me giving support/hope/encouragement to those who are in harm’s way? What would He think of me sharing tools to wives to know that they might be doing more harm to themselves and their marriage by going to couples counseling? Do you know that after couples counseling, many wives are subjected to more beatings or more emotional/verbal abuse because of what was said?

Have at it JA. Be part of the destruction process in this marriage. Teach all your followers to do the same.

The destruction of the marriage occurred when Saeed abused his wife. It sounds like you are making an idol of marriage and would rather women remain with their abusers. What would God want?

Josh the Baptist says:

I don’t want to speak on the Abedini situation specifically, but I do want to touch on a broader idea. I completely understand why Julie is doing what she is doing, and Michael can testify that I was on board with such from the beginning.

However, I think we all realize that Andrew has a valid point. This will always be what happens when you have divorce via social media. It is the worst of ideas. I air out my spouses laundry…some back me, some hate me for it. My spouse rebuts – more people get entrenched on both sides of the story. My friends/ supporters write blogs to tell the TRUE side of the story, which of course, the other side sees as evil propaganda. One of my spouses friends writes a blog to SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT. This is, of course, met by wild applause from her supporters, and great disdain from mine.

It’s the worst possible way of splitting up. I hope the kids can’t read. Their young minds will be poisoned towards at least one, if not both, of their parents.

Em says:

one thing that keeps rattling around in the back of my mind is the culture that Saeed comes out of – so foreign to a western mindset… someone a while back posted a concern about this… whether we like it or not, deep down in the marrow of our bones are the patterns of our formative years… i’ve watched people revert to this programmed behavior from time to time for reasons that i can only speculate… this gives me hope that a home and family unit are still possible for these two people…
unfortunately outside support often caters to the very thing that needs to be overcome and confrontation is labeled as intolerance while standing firm on Scripture …?… why that’s just plain … unacceptable … concrete is hard, while sand feels so good between the toes