Kevin’s Conversations: Balancing Both Sides Now
I am not an alarmist by any means.
I am one who most times maintains an even keel and likes to think that I usually maintain a relatively healthy balance when thinking through issues. I’m probably not as successful at it as I sometimes like to think I am, but in general I think I can characterize myself as such.
My aim for balance has probably come through here in my writings, coinciding with the conundrum of sometimes getting “stuck in the middle”.
With that said, one issue I have referenced in some of my previous writings is concerning me all the more. We have seen it raise its ugly head again just in these past couple weeks.
That is the growing polarization and animosity and division in our culture and country, even sometimes within the church.
Bringing up this matter is obviously not novel as it has been a big topic of discussion for the past week or so, including a bit here at this blog. Some of the discussion which has helped to develop my thoughts. I am sure there are others who have and will speak and write on this issue with much greater command, form, and effectiveness. Nevertheless, here is my go at it.
I do not think we are at the edge of civil war in our country or culture. I do not think that America is on the verge of collapse. I’m not trying to place all these recent happenings and issues on my prophecy chart to figure out how they are signs of the end.
However, I am concerned that if our country and culture continues on with these current trends, we could eventually get to the point where war and destruction and collapse aren’t far-fetched ideas. Since I have no prophecy chart to detail, I am not going to place a timeline on such things and I’m not going to define “eventually”, because I don’t exactly know myself what I mean by it. But let’s say that it is a serious concern and I’m not just theorizing, “Well, anything could happen hundreds of years from now because we never know what the future holds.”
I know there is still much good in our country and culture. I am not doomsaying. We could very well pull back from these current trends and never come close to dismantling our country and culture. But what if we don’t pull back and things only continue to grow worse? What could happen then?
It seems so much nowadays that everyone is expected to choose a side. Are you for Black Live Matters or are you for the police? Are you pro or con LGBT? Are you a political conservative or a political progressive? Mac or PC? LeBron James or Steph Curry? I digress, but you get the point.
Once we pick a side, we are expected to ardently defend it from the evil other side. And many times that “defending” takes the form of continuously attacking the other side and pointing out how bad they are. There are people I know from personal conversation or Facebook postings that I know I’m going to get a regular streaming of information of everything that is wrong with the other side. But you will rarely, if ever, hear a peep of any concern regarding their own side… unless it concerns suspected disloyalty. They are seemingly deluded to the point where they think everything is just about perfect with their own side or else they are using a battle tactic wherein they can never admit to or show any weakness. Unfortunately, at least in my perception, this type of behavior is only becoming greater and louder throughout the population. I believe social media, the 24 hour news cycle, and having the world at the point of our mouse or the tap of our finger has a lot to do with this.
Even if you don’t pick a side, people will try to throw you on one side or the other:
“Oh, you expressed concern about these incidents where cops have killed black people? How can you be against the police and just always assume they are at fault? Don’t you know that these are all just fraudulent hypings in the media? Don’t you know all the things wrong about Black Lives Matter? I can’t believe you’re on their side.”
“Oh, you think homosexuality is wrong? How can you be so close minded and bigoted and hate all these people? How can you be against people having any rights? You might as well go join the Westboro Baptists.”
So what do we do about all of this? As Christians, we should be concerned with truth and righteousness and justice and also healing and reconciliation. But how do we reconcile and promote healing with those on the “other side”?
Maybe we’d be better off if we weren’t so quick and adamant to choose sides in many circumstances. If we weren’t so prone to defend our position and to attack the other side. To exclaim the righteousness of our case and the follies of the other. Yes, some may always try to pigeonhole us onto a side no matter what we say. We can’t control what they do, but we can control what we do ourselves.
What if we sometimes laid down our battle and took the time to try to genuinely understand and empathize with the feelings and thoughts and desires of the other side? To not always try to show them “love” by speaking the “truth”, but sometimes show love through compassion and consideration and forbearance.
Rather than emphasizing our righteousness and superiority and their evil and incompetence, what if we spoke of our own shortcomings and the good things about the others?
Maybe if we did these things more often we wouldn’t be nearly as concerned with “sides”. Maybe the division wouldn’t feel nearly as sharp and impassable. Maybe the animosity would considerably lessen. Actually, I think the chances are much greater than “maybe” that these things would happen.
Now, I am not saying we abandon what we believe to be true and right and never speak to it. That we never point out what is wrong with what others are saying or doing. But we need to find a balance. Our default position can’t always be to defend our side and to attack the other. I believe our country and culture have trended much too strongly to this default position over the last so many years. If we continue to do so, I believe the consequences will become increasingly more dire.
You know what else about when it comes to our desires to speaking and standing for what we believe to be right and true? We’re fallible beings. We don’t always get it right 100% of the time. Maybe if we took the time to reach out to and listen to the other, our collective percentages of getting things right just might go up a tick or two.
It can’t hurt to try.
America will likely split in our lifetime (mine and yours).
The divides are too deep and Obama’s 8 years have dug them deeper with his race-baiting Socialist/Communist Agenda.
Obama and most Democrats are True Believers in Socialism/Communism….while only about half of Democrats sign on with the Race-baiting Agenda etc.
America is not to be a Socialist/Communist construct. The Alinsky-ite Obama-ite Democrats who openly embrace Socialist/Communist Ideology cannot be reasoned with. It will effectively split this Nation…and maybe sooner than later.
One Supreme Court decision that impacts the Second Amendment, and it’s Game Over. Two State Solution and a Red State America and Obama-Land.
Plans are already under way and preparations are already under way in many Red States.
The Socialists/Communists will one day soon push too far and there will be a National Divorce and it will be attempted Peacefully.
Al, I don’t see the divides as being too deep….. yet. I still believe we can pull out of it. But it’s going to take some attitude adjustments by many. I can’t control others, so I can only make the suggestion and then focus on myself.
But I could be wrong. I try to still see the positive side. Funny how I sometimes get accused of always being a pessimist (not here, but other places).
I absolutely loathe what Alex just expressed here.
I do believe we are headed for something awful and I think it far more popular than most understand.
I’m spent a lot of my down time studying the lead up to the Civil War and the war itself…and we don’t seem to understand what we are bringing on ourselves.
I know a lot of liberals.
I don’t know any communists.
We have had a form of socialism since Franklin Roosevelt and it has been of great benefit.
The common man knows nothing of Alinsky or Chomsky.
The common man is being bombarded with half truths that claim evil is upon him…when most of that evil is nothing more than ratings bait.
Most of the people I know have been deeply affected by media misrepresentations of peoples beliefs on both sides and the amount of garbage that is on social media is unbelievable.
We are creating a war out of whole cloth, but real people will die.
Kevin H,
I think the only way we can pull out of this is if we do have huge attitude adjustments…or the internet collapses so people like Alex Jones aren’t considered legitimate reporters…
You guys are delusional. The republic is strong because it is built on a good foundation.
We survived the 60s – an unpopular war (which we lost) total disruptions of the political conventions – race riots throughout the country. The bringing down of 2 Presidents (Johnson read the writing on the wal and refused to run again) and Nixon in the early 70s.
1.) I remember standing in the parking lot at Dodgers stadium in 1965 and watched Los Angeles burned as were Detroit, Chicago and many other cities
2.) Does anyone expect violence at next week’s GOP convention? I mean like we had in Chicago in 1968? Google it youngsters –
3.) Where are the campus demonstrations? Where are the sit ins, where are the bombings of the Weathermen type groups.
4.) Where are the marches on Washington?
And we survived.
This is all passive conspiracy theory BS and I can’t believe any of you fall for it.
MLD,
My better angels believe you.
However…I see all day long on Facebook and Twitter people that I know to be sane and decent people threatening mayhem.
Would we have survived the 60’s if we had the degree of social media we have today?
I am going to do an office survey – I live and work in the heart of conservative Orange County. I am going to ask – “who knows Alex Jones?” and “who listens to him?”
I know I have never listened to him. I have 35 people in my office – that should be a good poll – I will report back.
Any of you in similar situations as me do the same. Now Al, who hangs 24/7 in Idaho gunshops may have a different polling sample. 😉
“Would we have survived the 60’s if we had the degree of social media we have today?”
You did not need social media – it was happening in every city, every college and university, the news media were divided and vocal on the issue — just look at the result when Walter Cronkite came out against the war — it was over.
My friends in college actually went out and bombed and killed – are you FB friends really going to do that or are they all talk. Post on your FB for them to put up or shut up.
MLD,
In a way you just made another point.
Back then, we had a few trusted authority figures left that could speak into these matters with clarity.
Name one today…
MLD @ 10…no thanks. I might be the person they decided to prove their mettle on…
i don’t think what i see is the collapse of the nation (could happen)… rather what i see is a new dynamic and a new set of values… i’m not sure what they are, but they seem to fit the description of bread and circuses… the politics today? they prove that we, the masses, are dumb
the New Deal of Roosevelt was a great idea (there are some who will tell you that what Roosevelt put into action was, essentially, what Herbert Hoover had been fighting to get a hostile congress to approve)… the New Deal built bridges and dams and improved the infrastructure of this country as well as allowing men to feed their families thru hard work… life had been hard work and struggle always for the majority of the race – then came WW2’s end and a new cohesion and prosperity for all… it hasn’t played out well
MLD,
I am not saying we are at the point or just around the corner from collapse. What I am saying is that the divisive and polarized attitudes that have grown worse over the last so many years continue on their current trajectory, then our country could eventually be in dire straits. Our country has obviously had worse problems before and we eventually healed and recovered from them before things came to collapse, with the Civil War having come the closest in causing a collapse or permanent split of the country. My hope is we get nowhere close to that again. But I believe the attitudes being shown now are sowing the seeds for that possible future collapse to happen. Let’s correct them before things really do get dangerously close.
KevinH,
I think you’re right on…
Em,
I think what you’re seeing is that the white Christian is no longer in the majority and different people from different backgrounds, ethnicity, and faiths (or no faith at all) are as much in the forefront.
That’s a whole different discussion…
And as I referenced in my article, I do believe social media and the internet and the 24 hour news cycle is a new variable that feeds into and gives the platform for our current problems. No culture or civilization before us had had to deal with this variable. These things make it so much easier and quicker to disperse attitude to many people many times over. And to get and pass on information (real or fraudulent) to feed your attitude. And with these things contributing to short attention spans and the need for instant gratification, many people are no longer in for drawn out reasoned discussion. They are just looking for the quick hitter to make their point.
MLD,
Let me give you my favorite example.
There is a fellow who used to participate here…and was,in my opinion, a valuable contributor to the community.
He’s very intelligent, a good communicator, a hard working man, a veteran.
He is not a foolish brute,but a man of thought with artistic gifts as well.
I’ve watched him steadily move from being discontent to being someone who is mobilized for war like actions.
He is not a poser…he’s the real deal.
There are many I see right now taking the same path…
KevinH @ 17…exactly.
speaking of the Civil War, it didn’t end well… we, today, are paying the price for that “good deed gone bad”
i’m not saying that we should have let the United States split into two nations and slavery continue, i am saying that reconstruction wasn’t very constructive at all…
#16-well, that is my point, Michael – that is what folk are seeing disintegrate now and, perhaps it is valid to see that as a nation disintegrating… that nation of “white and Christian” influence – dunno
There’s going to be a Black Lives Matter protest in the center of my small town this afternoon. I am going to have to find a way to detour around them as I come home from a class in a neighboring town. Part of me wants to join them, part of me wishes they’d just go away. All of me hopes no one gets hurt.
I was around in the 60’s and went to a protest in D.C. orchestrated by the SDS and watched Nixon pull out tanks and cops in riot gear–got maced, got arrested, had a friend beaten, and ended up in the DC jail.
But one thing I learned from that was that none of the agitators were in jail with us (about 1000 of us in the DC jail courtyard and then the Colisseum). Agitators agitate– and then they get out of the way and let the protesters get arrested, beaten, killed, whatever.
My great learning from all that was that agitators manipulate. Group think breaks down personal boundaries, and people will do things in a group they would never do on their own. Agitators depend on it.
I have never since belonged to any group as I found that I had been used by the SDS and I never wanted to be used like that again. Jail terrified me. Riot police terrified me. Trying to get out of jail terrified me.
What terrifies me about where this country is today is that we have so many more agitators, more skilled and wealthy agitators than we did in the 60s. And people don’t realize how they are being played.
Good article Kevin.
Judy,
That was well said…thank you.
A relative and a former employer (a former pastor, in fact) are both of the opinion that agitators will encourage riots at both conventions and Obama, who (they claim) doesn’t want to leave office (I think he can’t wait) will call out martial law and stay in office for the unforeseeable future. Those who object, they say, will be imprisoned in all those FEMA camps, guarded by mysterious men in Black Helicopters, employing all the massive ammo that they have stored as well as the huge store of body bags.
I simply don’t believe any of this.
(I do believe agitators will encourage disruption of the Repub convention.)
Yesterday, there was something posted on Facebook that has torn my soul since I saw it.
It was a video of a young man draped across his fathers casket…saying goodbye in the last moments before they would take his daddy way.
His father was one of the police officers killed in Dallas.
I have have not cried like this in a great while.
We risk replicating that horrible scene over and over again…
“What terrifies me about where this country is today is that we have so many more agitators, more skilled and wealthy agitators than we did in the 60s. And people don’t realize how they are being played.”
Yes, Judy, I believe you are correct. I wasn’t around in the 60’s so I can’t compare from personal experience. But I do believe our current media proliferation allows for many more agitators to gain a platform.
yes, what Judy said is absolutely correct, in my opinion also 🙂
we all ought to ask ourselves the question, who is playing us? and for whose benefit?
Xenia,
That scenario has spread to the point where my own mother now fears it because all her friends and family are repeating it…
There is certainly plenty of agitation today, but for the most part it seems like it just leads people to be angry on the Internet. This may eventually escalate to something else, but social media seems to provide just as much of an outlet for agitation as it does a root cause of it.
The point has been made here before that there was a time that people got angry enough to do something, nowadays people seem to think that sharing a link or writing an angry rant on Facebook constitutes doing something.
As long as we can satisfy ourselves with these abstract protests, there may be relatively small outbursts of violence, but I don’t exactly see war on the horizon.
I am not a conspiracy theorist and I don’t think there’s going to be any big rioting, martial law, etc. at the conventions.
With that said, with the DNC being in Philly in just a couple weeks, I am sure glad that my family will be on vacation and out of the city that week, just in case something were to happen. Just avoiding the normal chaos and inconvenience that such conventions cause is incentive alone. No doing of our own on the timing of vacation, just good fortune that the week we picked also happened to be the DNC. 🙂
I am not convinced that there is a great conspiracy to play us.
I’m more convinced that when the internet gave everyone a voice it failed to discern which of those voices were worth listening to.
When the internet came about it created a huge crisis for traditional media…television had already fractured because of cable, newspapers were old news, and now people went online for information.
To attract attention and regain ratings, traditional media had to become as shrill as it’s competitors…and truth was lost in the race for advertising dollars.
I have polled 13 people so far in my office – not a one could identify Alex Jones. I will get to more after lunch.
Anyone else surveying their office?
Dallas,
I do agree that more of the agitation and anger is on the internet right now rather than in “real” life. The concern is, however, that agitation and anger boiling over into real life actions. If trends continue as they are, I believe it will be harder and harder to keep things compartmentalized between the internet and real life.
MLD,
I think you’re polling the wrong demographic.
I don’t see a lot of this from urban, white, upper middle class folks.
Go down to the local tavern or blue collar work place and do your poll.
Who is Alex Jones, and how is he relevant to this?
Michael,
I believe you hit the nail on the head in your #16…the white majority is no longer the majority–and they’re scared to death. Both sides are rising up…the whites are clinging to their guns thinking there will be a race war. Other ethnicities are standing for their rights too. Make no mistake about it. There could be a race war in this country that could lead to a civil war. People like Alex Jones are fomenting rebellion and hatred. And speaking of the Civil War, I do believe like Michael that we could go that way again–and I see it as the natural consequences of the original sin of slavery.
Cash,
I haven’t thought this completely through…but I think guns represent to some what slavery meant to the South.
A symbol of a way of life seen passing away…
Josh,
Alex Jones is “Infowars” a radical right wing conspiracy theorist who was on the far margins of the internet for a long time.
Now…he’s being listened to by too many normally sane people…
Josh–Alex Jones is a talk radio host who engages in the wildest of the conspiracy theories about black helicopters and FEMA camps and the government confiscating all guns etc etc.
Michael–very interesting theory about guns representing their livestyles passing away. I suppose it makes sense that people would cling to their traditions. It’s all fear based. All of it.
Alex Jones is an idiot but I know many people that I actually respect who think him to be the best source of truth alive.
He is a caricature who is getting very wealthy by proposing dark forces control everything.
BD,
Why are so many that we respect…people of faith…being taken in by these things?
“The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of the infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.”
― H.P. Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories
HP wrote in the beginning of the last century. Now we can, with the help of computers and the internet, correlate not only the contents of our own minds but the contents of a million other people’s minds as well. And it’s not a healthy thing. I do not believe we were created for this.
Michael,
First, I believe that conspiratorial religious views (end times mania) is fed by the same attitude or the same ‘spirit.’
Second, we feel powerless and secret knowledge makes us feel a little more secure. We like the idea that the whole world is suckered and we are above it all.
Third, we never get far past anger and fear, anger and fear, anger and fear.
Just some ideas …
“I do not believe we were created for this.”
Xenia, I sat on the banks of my beloved river last week and thought the same thing.
BD,
I agree…but know not what to do about it…
“Why are so many that we respect…people of faith…being taken in by these things?”
Perhaps you need to adjust who you respect.
Speaking of political conventions, my dad took me to the 1960 dem convention at the L.A. sports arena – I still have Adlai Stevenson, Stuart Symington, and Hubert Humphrey buttons.
Michael,
What you do is what we can do about it. The internet has changed much more than we know.
My question is this; Did Chuck Smith tap into something when he began to preach the imminent return of Christ and the centrality of the role of Israel in geo-politics or did he help create something by overseeing a movement that was more fueled by end times mania than by the sacrificial love of God in Christ.
I do not know. I know Smith caught a wave that he did not create in some sense but I do not know how central he was to perpetuating the mythology of imminence.
Michael, the protest, for the most part, is on the internet right now and people are screaming at each other without much effect other than to annoy those who disagree. I think that something could change that. If someone rises up with a voice and a sense of authority who can direct all this anger and frustration into action, that person could get people on the streets. Or, if something happens to tip this in a very bad way, people could take to the streets.We don’t know what could tip it. But something could!
When I talk to people around me, everyone is whispering about civil war – is it coming soon, what will start it, how will we survive it?
On the other hand, many young people talk as if they are ready to take to the streets for this war. I’m talking about people I have talked to. I don’t know about anywhere else.
Here’s the disconnect. Every time something “scary” happens, the Rapture Ready Clock ticks a little closer to Rapture Day. Things they find newsworthy would include guns laws, riots and protests, Obama, etc. etc. You know, all the “Read your Bible with a newspaper in your hand” hysterics. So if this is true, why aren’t the Rapturists rejoicing for behold, their redemption draweth nigh? Aren’t they wanting the Rapture to happen? I remember a man at CC panic stricken on the topic of Black Helicopters and I said, “According to your view of ends times, doesn’t this mean the Rapture is at hand? Don’t you want Jesus to come for you? Well, it’s a conundrum for sure.
Part of me thinks we weren’t created for this and it’s not good for the human mind and psyche to take in the overwhelming amount of stuff now available to us. The other part thinks that God knew we were going to get to this point someday when He did create us. So He had to have it in mind. What that exactly means for us, I’m not sure.
I do see destruction on the horizon. I think the Matthew 24:12 “Love of many” is growing cold.
But on another note: I think rather than an “aim for balance” as Kevin put it, our aim should be for truth. Aiming for balance can put as half way between a demon and a saint. I’m not judging your heart Kevin. To the contrary. I value your voice, I just think it’s wrong here. Choosing the middle ground simply for the sake of finding balance can place you pretty far away from what is just and right. Think of it in historical contexts of the issues of our ancestors. Two examples of “Finding the balance”:
1. Half way between pro-slavery and emancipation was share cropping without voting rights, lynching, etc….
2. Half way between total genocide of Native Americans and full rights under the law is half rights, reservation, and only killing some, which is pretty much the atrocities that were done.
Judy,
I hear the same things…that’s why I’ve plunged head long into studying the first Civil War.
Xenia,
Your #53 is gold…
BD,
I think you’re on to something…and I’m not sure about the answers either.
I do know that the most stunning moment of his life was when he realized that he was going to die instead of being Raptured.
He believed what he had taught…and was completely bewildered when it didn’t happen as he thought it would.
Mark,
The problem is that on many of the issues we face there is “truth” on both sides.
The need is for dialog, not dogmatism…
Kevin,
I absolutely agree with your last statement. We aren’t meant to take it all in.
I’m basically just shutting off the FB feeds of fear mongers, sharing good news stories, sharing art and beauty, participating in local events with real people and refusing to join the Church of Chicken Little.
We’re meant to be the light, salt and healers, not part allow ourselves to be consumed by the worlds fear, rage and hatred.
We can choose not to participate in the crazy making.
Will there be riots / violence at the conventions? Probably. We’re back around on the cycle. It’s time to be disgruntled again.
Will the country split? Not anytime soon. This does remind me of the rapture talk, because at some point it has to be right. USA will not be an eternal empire. But like all the rapture predictions, this is probably not the start of Civil War II either.
Alex Jones sounds like good entertainment. I’ll have to check that out!
London,
It’s when the crazy making comes to home and church…as it has in mine…that the real problem begins.
Michael, I wish I could agree with your more positive outlook.
Unfortunately, I have friends in high places who have lots of “govt” experience and world govts. experience….and a national split similar to Brexit and Texit etc is very possible and even likely in my lifetime. There is a major war behind the scenes in the USA and we’re one Supreme Court vote against the 2nd Amendment away from a real divorce (though there are other issues that could be the tipping point and spark).
Kevin said, “we weren’t created for this and it’s not good for the human mind and psyche to take in the overwhelming amount of stuff now available to us.”
I was LOL.
I love it. I’m like Rainman when it comes to issues and assimilating information. It actually calms my autism and gives me many things at once to focus on and soothes my active mind.
Al,
In my opinion we are creating a war that need not be.
I’m actually incredibly pessimistic about the chances of avoiding something akin to civil war…because we don’t have the will to try.
Michael, there are big things going on behind the scenes in Govts. The Socialists/Communists have pushed too far too fast and they don’t want compromise, they want exactly what Saul Alinsky wanted and preached. They are a small Group but an effective Group. They have an Agenda. They have taken over the University System and Educational System. They have taken over the Blue States. They have taken over big parts of the USA Behemoth Govt. complex and mechanism. They are making inroads into our Military and CIA and NSA etc. If it wasn’t for the Mormons in the NSA and if it wasn’t for the Evangelicals in the CIA and Military….they would have eliminated the 2nd Amendment already.
The Supreme Court is likely the tipping point. Once it goes Socialist/Communist, they will effectively re-interpret the Constitution and it’s Game Over. That is likely the spark and when the split will happen. There are already plans to deal with this near inevitability and you’ll see the Red States band together and some sort of National Divorce at that point. The plans are peaceful. Hopefully the Socialists/Communists don’t perpetrate offensive violence when that day comes.
If Trump gets elected you’ll see a Civil War started by the “peaceful” Socialists/Communists. They will used violent “protesting” and Terrorist acts and justify it in a Victim-blaming way by saying they have no choice b/c Trump! etc.
Idaho is well positioned and preparing. It’s like the ultimate Prepper State thanks to our Mormon/LDS friends LOL.
I wouldn’t want to be in Commiefornia or even Western Oregon or any blue liberal state when SHTF. Those places aren’t adequately prepared for a time of turmoil and transition and the populaces there are too dependent on Govt. on a daily basis for their daily survival.
The split could also happen when the Current System (economic system) collapses when the FED and Central Banks can no longer solve a Debt Crisis with more and more Debt and Credit.
Mark,
Just as a clarification from your earlier comment, I am not saying we should always seek balance or the middle. There are issues I feel strongly about today or from the past where I strongly believe one side is completely or all but completely in the moral right. Issues like slavery or abortion. However, I believe our culture is dangerously defaulting to being adamantly divided on just too much. And we need to find ways to be more balanced and more willing to hear and work with the other side.
These most current race wars with Black Lives Matter and All Lives Matter and the police, etc. I believe is a perfect example. I believe good things and bad lie on both sides. However, people act like you have to totally support one and attack the other. We need many more who want to meet in the middle without “choosing a side” and try to find understanding and healing and reconciliation than we need those who want to militaristicly support one or the other.
This kind of talk has been going on since at least 1777.
Don’t buy into the crazy.
Josh,
I just turned 58.
This is the first time since I was a child that I can remember “normal” people being so consumed with things.
If I lived in the South, I would be even more concerned…
This talk was much worse in the south 20-30 years ago. It has just finally spread around the country. We’ve mellowed.
A popular slogan around here in the ’80’s was “Lee surrendered. I didn’t.”
Haven’t heard it in a very long time.
Josh,
I heard that yesterday…having never heard it before.
It’s an interesting thought…they claimed that Lee surrendered the army, but the Confederacy never formally surrendered.
Thus, they were a country under occupation today…
It was huge around here when I was a kid. T-shirts. Bumper stickers. People were serious about it. You wouldn’t see it much nowadays.
I had a job in ’94 where I sat and listened to about 4 good Christian middle age men talk about how the Next Civil War had already begun, and they had there weapons / food stash/ etc.
But here’s the thing. Let’s say worse case scenario happens, and it all falls apart.
I have no fear. There will be lots of opportunities to offer the peace of Jesus to a hurting world.
Josh,
Interesting…
Xenia – Call me surprised that you quoted HP! Well done lady!
Your 53 overlooks one crucial point: That Rapturists look for these things to occur, but don’t want to be here when it all goes down. Their eschatology tells them that will avoid the bad stuff and get out in the twinkling of an eye.
Now, it may happen that the Rapture occurs soon(maybe even today), but if it doesn’t and it gets worse, well, maybe its time to look at other view of the End times?
Michael: What books are you reading on the Civil War?
Josh: I agree with you. I have Psalm 91 approach to what is happening right now. Sometimes it overwhelms me but I try really hard to keep my head in the place that God wants it – in His peace. And I try to remember that He is greater.
Judy,
Thus far…
Shelby Footes trilogy.
McPhersons “Battle Cry of Freedom”
“The Destructive War” by Royster
I’m also taking the classes online from Columbia and Yale Universities that are on iTunesU.
If you watch the Barack Obama episode of Jerry Seinfeld’s Comedians In Cars Getting Coffee (starting at 13:50), you will see him humorously expressing his disdain for heads of state that stay in office too long.
Of course, to some people, explicitly stating “I am not a Muslim” is proof that he really is a Muslim.
OK, I seriously must live in a dream world. I just slid through the last 2 days of my FB feed and did not read a single person threaten revolution. Not even guys I know who sit in their underwear all day and never come out from behind the computer.
Are you sure some of you aren’t just pulling my leg?
Now, the LCMS synodical convention is going on now and some guys there want to take off heads 🙂
MLD,
I have a bunch of new stuff literally every hour…
One comment regarding the end times, “Only your Halodresser knows for sure.” 😉
Civil war? Really? Come on folks you can’t be serious. Turn off the news media, who’s business it is to keep people afraid and angry. Look outside and see normal people going about their normal lives minding their own business. Think of all the cities in the US functioning as usual. Baseball games, barbecues, grocery shopping, yard work. A civil war? Maybe after y2k finally hits. 😉
Wait until the social media revolutionaries discover the new Pokemon app – we won’t hear back from them until after the election.
What Michael and them hear on social media is like the one loud mouth guy in the office who always has the solution to every problem, even if he has to knock someone’s block off — an everyone else rolls their eyes and gets back to work.
I think the likelihood lies in the short term more in the context of us evolving into an ‘Irish Democracy’ rather than open civil war. Once there is a sense that the rule of law is not equally applied, the justification for skirting the edges of law and decree becomes more palatable for normally law abiding people.
My concern is the advantage to both sides of continually slaying of straw men, utter extremes in argument, and the inability of either side to hear the other side, or even confer human dignity on those with oppositional beliefs will create a permanent divide.
Yet, I am hopeful for the true church in exile–the opportunity to build relationships and demonstrate worth to others by engaging them in true conversation–I think good will come in the midst of some very dark times.
The rule of law has never been equally applied in this country… I will vigorously amen the rest of your comment, though. 🙂
A little something that might be helpful to those on both “sides.” Years ago, when I was in banking, there was a manager of a competing department whom I loathed. I had nothing whatever good to say about him. One day, I was in a class where one of the requirements was to fill out a survey about someone you didn’t like. Of course, I picked my “enemy.” After answering as honestly as I knew how questions asking that I rate him across a spectrum on some 50 attributes (honest…dishonest; reliable…unreliable, etc.) I was forced to conclude that, by and large, he wasn’t really so bad after all. Once I looked at him as a person instead of as the personification of all I despised, I came to actually like the guy. A good lesson we might all find advantageous.
Well said, Jim…
Response to 59
Michael,
Nothing wrong with dogmatism on issues that require it. Being dogmatic doesn’t inherently cease dialogue.
Mark,
I’m not sure at all what issues require it.
The key to a successful democracy is the art of compromise.
Response to 69
Kevin,
It’s obvious to me that your heart is in the right place. I’m sure we agree that both sides have legitimate gripes. Those are truths. I think both sides are telling lies. I just find that balance doesn’t accurately describe what we’re called to as Christians. And if balance in itself is held up as a virtue, is it possible that we are putting ourselves in a position to accept lies?
Please understand. I’m asking myself these same questions. Perhaps this isn’t the right forum to sound this stuff out.
Peace & grace to you!
Michael, I understand your comment regarding the rule of law selectively applied–it seems like in the last few years the arrogant use of the ‘law’ as a weapon for some, against others, is much more overt.
Rick,
I’m only really familiar with one issue where the rule of law is always invoked and that is immigration.
We’ve twisted the law in so many different ways when it has suited us that you could fill a book with the circumstances.
The same with the drug war.
If you want to see the Constitution totally upended, read what Lincoln did through the Civil War… pretty amazing stuff.
Michael,
Well, I’m dogmatic on the solas, the Trinity, the virgin birth, & the resurrection, to name a few. But that only ends dialogue occasionally.
Mark,
Those are religious doctrinal positions…I fail to see how they apply to politics.
There’s nothing wrong with political dogmas either: And their is no separation between secular and sacred.
I simply cannot and will not put politics on the same level as the revealed truth about God, from God.
I remind myself when I am tempted to think too much of the negative effects of politics that the church faced down Nero; we’ll be OK.
You guys do know FB feeds you what it thinks you want to see right?
If you start hiding political posts, fear mongering and just plain old bat shit crazy folks, and start sharing good news, items of beauty and friends vacation photos, you’ll see more of those good things than the crazies.
The algorithm is designed to feed you what you ask for.
Do an experiment and try it. You’ll see more joy and happiness.
And stop clicking on the things they say are “trending” too.
Your level of online sanity and balance will increase.
Mark,
When I stress trying to find a balance on many issues, I am not meaning we have to end up in the exact middle on all or at least many of them. But what I am meaning is being able to handle them in a manner in which we seek to understand both sides and we’re not always out to bludgeon the other side. That we have at least as much concern for the thoughts and feelings of the others as we do with making our point. That we come to a recognition that our side is not always 100% right and good and the other side is not always 100% wrong and evil and that we’re able to annunciate such. These are the types of things I am meaning by finding a “balance”.
London,
The majority and often craziest stuff is usually on social media and the internet. You are right there are measures we can take to try to avoid reading or even seeing much of it.
One of my concerns, however, is that more of this stuff is trickling into real life. At least in my perception. It’s not as easy in real life to just “click off the page” when people want to talk to you about everything wrong with Hillary and how stupid people must be who support her or how President Obama is in cahoots with the Black Panthers and Fundamentalist Muslims to take down America or how anyone who isn’t totally on board with the proven tragedy of man-made global warming is anti-science and idiotic. Especially when some people like to have these types of conversations with regularity.
London, that explains why my FB page is such a cheerful place, mostly dog videos, quotes from Church fathers, Bible verses, recipes and knitting patterns. Thanks for the explanation!
Kevin, good stuff. Keep writing. We need more in the middle.
Keith, love your idea of balance. Missing so much in today’s world. Especially in politics, where “your guy” can’t do wrong, and the “other guy” can’t do right.
Response to 100
WOW! I can’t believe you got that from what I wrote Michael.