Kevin’s Conversations: Ready For War?
I am not a pacifist by any means.
While I am far from the first one who is looking for a fight or eager to go to battle, I do believe that war and violence is necessary at times. Although I am sure there are varying iterations of such, I would subscribe to the basic ideals of the Just War theory. I would apply similar principles when it comes to the state’s subduing of criminal activity and also of personal application when needing to protect oneself or those around them from a violent threat.
Someone with a more pacifist bent could raise some arguments against my beliefs and could potentially be grounded in some substantial Scriptural or ethical or reasonable basis. For those inclined to debate, this could be quite the sizable and worthwhile topic. But my intent in writing here is not to deliberate Just War versus pacifism versus other positions on war and violence.
Rather my concern in writing is when I see people, most especially my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, who are seemingly eager to go to war or get excited thinking about the possibilities of such. I have observed this type of behavior at varying times over the years and it was brought to mind again last week. As President Trump upped the aggressive rhetoric with North Korea, he had a cheering section who gleefully applauded his hubris and seemed quite enthusiastic about the prospects of attacking North Korea and/or taking out its deranged leader, Kim Jong-un.
Now I do think that North Korea and Jong-un are significant problems and a threat to international security, let alone what they do to their own people. The world would be a better and safer place if the existing government and leadership of this hardline communist country could be significantly constrained or even changed. Therefore, in no way am I advocating support for the current regime of North Korea.
However, at the same time, I am perplexed and frightened by those who are fervently ready to attack. War is a terrible thing. Yes, I believe it is sometimes necessary, but it is still terrible regardless of the circumstances. Thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands and sometimes even millions of lives are lost. These lives are those of men and women who go off to serve, never to return to their spouses and children and family and friends. How terribly agonizing and heartbreaking it is when a wife learns her husband has been killed in combat and then she must also tell her children that daddy is never coming home. And beyond lives lost, how many more suffer physical and mental and emotional and psychological afflictions and trauma? I have never been in the military and so I can’t even begin to describe what it is like to serve in battle. A veteran with combat experience could describe the enormity so much greater than I ever could. And even beyond those who serve in war, how many more innocent civilians are collateral damage and end up losing their lives or having their living circumstances torn asunder?
Is this what we are yearning for? Really? Is our desire to display our strength or to police the world or to substantiate our president really driving us to be excited about going to war? I would think we would instead desire any avenue that would not lead to war, with war only being a last grim resort. I would think we would get more excited by the possibilities of finding a diplomatic or non-violent solution to ease tensions and reduce security threats than we would be to show off our “fire and fury”.
I remember the Persian Gulf War as a teenager. It was the first war that I really knew and it was also the first war that was really broadcast on tv. I remember thinking it was pretty cool seeing how we were lighting up the skies and displaying how great and strong and technologically advanced we were. But now I look back on that and think that was a pretty rotten thing to get excited about. Yes, it was an impressive display of military might, but it should have been accompanied by sobering thoughts that with each of those flashes in the sky, some soul or souls could be losing their lives or suffering gruesome injuries.
I also think about some of the end times enthusiasm I have been exposed to throughout my life. Much too often there seems to be a troubling passion when war or rumors of war or other atrocities happen in particular locations. Most especially when it comes to anything Israel related. One should not get excited about the prospects of Russia or Iraq or Syria attacking Israel, or any country attacking any other for that matter. Yes, the excitement is attached to the belief that these things are ushering in the soon return of our Lord, but my goodness, let’s delineate what we’re getting excited about. If we believe these things are indicating that Christ’s return is right around the corner, we should be sobered and saddened that such terrible things must first take place. Sadly, I have witnessed very little somberness over such things but readily much more near jubilation.
One other thing I have noticed is that one’s enthusiasm for war often parallels their affection for the Commander-in-Chief. Being that I have had much more contact throughout my life with those who are politically conservative, I have seen much more enthusiasm for any military operation, real or potential, conducted by Trump or one of the Bushes than I have for Clinton or Obama. Anything conducted by Clinton or Obama has been met with skeptical or condemning, or at best, lukewarm reception. However, when one of the Bushes took us to war or as Trump has gone about his current boasting, some can’t seem to be able to contain their excitement and endorsement. Although my experiences have been much more conservative related, I have witnessed some similar experiences with political liberals, just with roles reversed.
And so I find this frightening that we can get excited about going to war, whatever the reasoning or cause may be. But I also think about these things in parallel terms to other issues. Issues that aren’t necessarily nearly as grave or catastrophically consequential as war, but issues with some resemblance, nonetheless. How often do we get excited about going to battle over some cause? Over some social or theological or ethical or political issue? How often do we get excited about winning some argument, whether it be online or in real life? How often are we eager to seek out these battles or arguments?
These battles and arguments may sometimes be necessary and it may be right to participate in them at times. But are our thoughts and attitudes in the right place when we are craving to do battle? When we can’t wait to win or to defeat the enemy or to display our superiority.
Fighting a war or battling for a cause or contending with our own personal conflicts may sometimes be imperative and proper. But what is our heart’s approach? Are we battling out of necessity to hopefully bring about a greater good? Or is there a part of us that takes pleasure in experiencing victory and displaying how strong we are or in seeing the suffering and stifling of the enemy? Maybe some of the battles we see as necessary aren’t even so and we have only succumbed to our own faulty and depraved reasoning. Maybe some of them shouldn’t even be battles at all and rather should be exercises to work together with others with whom we have some differences.
May God help us to navigate our potential battles and to keep our hearts in the right place.
Here is my naive take on North Korea:
Would it kill us to talk to them? To Kim?
They are terrified of us. Our military practice sessions with the South Koreans scare them to death. They remember how their capital city was destroyed in the Korean War. They are isolated and this feeds their paranoia. Again, would it hurt to talk to them? Couldn’t we just ratchet down the testosterone for a bit and actually listen to their concerns? Some of which are valid? Please?
I am almost a pacifist. from the BF & M:
“It is the duty of Christians to seek peace with all men on principles of righteousness. In accordance with the spirit and teachings of Christ they should do all in their power to put an end to war.
The true remedy for the war spirit is the gospel of our Lord. The supreme need of the world is the acceptance of His teachings in all the affairs of men and nations, and the practical application of His law of love. Christian people throughout the world should pray for the reign of the Prince of Peace.”
I think we may FAR too may excuses, as Christians, for just war.
You know who didn’t want to go to war this past week? Our generals… and any person with an ounce of common sense… were we close to doing so? i don’t know, but i do that we were ready to go had NOKO launched their threatened 3 (or was it 4?) missiles at Guam… and this administration, hopefully, acknowledges that there’s only one way to fight a war and that is to win – it would have been a horror at the very least or a world-wide epic cataclysm… a thoroughly bad thing
too much blood has been shed to no purpose, in places we never should have sent our military
KevinH’s good post made me think of this past week in Charlottesville – the parallels between the white supremacists and the rest of this nation and then Kim Jong-un and his people and the U.S.
if you think the counter demonstrators were all the innocent victims of aggression (most were) you didn’t see the young black male with his homemade flame thrower or the bats being swung from both sides… call it paranoia, call it hatred, call it evil, call it by any name and you’ll not change the result… someone is going to take the biggest weapon they can get their hands on and aim it at the other side and they kill people
i pray that the evil Kim Jong-un is taken out, i pray that the people of North Korea are relieved of their oppression, delusion and fear and i pray also that we marginalize these supremacists until their followers let go of their delusions and fears
What I’m seeing is that the desire to keep any form of unity, whether political or ecclesiastical is disappearing.
We want to defeat our ideological “enemies”, whether they be neighbors or brethren.
Part of this stems from the fact that most today have never experienced war, nor have they studied what really happens in war.
Ignorance and fear are ruling the day.
“Ignorance and fear are ruling the day.” that is a very sobering observation…
because beneath the surface there is much jockeying for wealth and power in this world and we are fools if we let “them” play us… whatever our group of “us” may be…
I just want to know if that is a picture of Kevin?
Xenia,
Establishing much of any diplomatic relations with North Korea has been a challenge for this country for many years. With our current president, it would seem our chances of being able to do that are zilch.
Josh,
Although I believe in Just War, I do agree with you that Christians have made way too many excuses to fit something into “Just War”.
Covered,
I only look like that when I play paintball. 🙂
(Actually, I’ve only ever played paintball once and didn’t look anything at all like that. Although I’ve seen others who came close.) 🙂
I am with Jesus, “Blessed are the peacemakers.”
Any human can naturally & quickly kill his brother, it’s the first account of sin being acted out outside of the garden.
When Jesus declared peacemakers “blessed” He gave us the ultimate rage suppressing assignment, along with a few others like turning the other cheek, when oppressed, subvert by kindness and go the extra mile, love your enemy.
I will struggle to follow Jesus on this. He never said it would be easy, but He assured us He will never leave or forsake us.
Great article Kevin.
The concepts of “peace” and “peace making” are becoming lost arts.
We also send mixed signals when we let economic pragmatism cloud our values. Specifically with respect to N. Korea, I think we could obtain a positive outcome without war, if we as a nation were willing to make it an existential issue in our relationship with China.
As is my usual angst, I just wish people would read a book.
A few books.
I highly recommend James McPherson’s “Battle Cry of the Republic” if for nothing more than his descriptions of the Civil War battlefields…it should give us all pause.
#12 Michael
Might I add Barbara Tuchman’s ‘Guns of August’… it relates how the great powers stumbled into WW1 through mistakes in diplomacy and bravado. The mistakes cost millions of lives…
JFK used it for “lessons learned” in the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Duane,
I always like book recommendations from you. 🙂
His last name is Kim.
I hate to be the one to bring it into the thread, but this was the diplomatic line taken by Britain toward Nazi Germany, toward N. Korea the first time, toward Iran, and Israel toward Hezbollah and Hamas. The comes a point at which the road meets the shore and you can kick the can no further. Are we there yet? I pray for my children’s sake no.
In the cold war we could count on the fact that the Russians were not so steeped in Communist cult ideology that they would not sacrifice their children to endless war. These days we cannot say the same about the N. Korean leaders or the Radical Islamist theocracies.
I have said from the outset that Trump was stumping on already broken promises, and IMV he is using Christendom to further his civil agenda. He is who God has placed in the Mira Lago White House, and we ought to pray for him otherwise he will be influenced by much worse. I think many of the Remnant feel this way.
Sorry should say Britain toward Nazi Germany, the US toward… etc
#12 Michael
+1 Thank you. I started the book, and [insert distraction here] happened. Just dug it out, dusted it off. Will take it on my center of totality road trip.
Highly recommend Richard Rhodes’s The Making of the Atomic Bomb, which begins with war tech in WW1 and then into WW2, ending, roughly, with Japan’s surrender to the US. His 2nd book, Dark Sun takes up with post WW2, and the arms race w USSR. Reads like a spy thriller. Have thought about it on more than one occasion as current events reveal how Russia is working to destabilize NATO and… are they helping to arm North Korea?
I’m guessing Kevin’s friends are not the ones who will be going into battle, but sitting at the TV cheering.
But it’s common even for potential combatants to get excited.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNwZmW5qs_I
Applies also to the violence in the streets in recent days.
Outside
Re: Russia
I think so, how else do they get the wherewithal to build missile components in-house underneath the weight of all those sanctions? They did finance a few nuclear facilities in Iran as well, so, there’s that.
Sorry about my comment on the other thread, somethings sound not-so-bad in my head and then when I submit it I wish there was a delete button. I think it actually helps the conversation though if we can’t delete. Now I can apologise and possibly make an acquaintance.
🙂
Maybe that actually speaks to the issue on that other thread…
Hacksaw Ridge is a 2016 biographical war drama film directed by Mel Gibson and written by Andrew Knight and Robert Schenkkan, based on the 2004 documentary The Conscientious Objector. The film focuses on the World War II experiences of Desmond Doss, an American pacifist combat medic who was a Seventh-day Adventist Christian, refusing to carry or use a firearm or weapons of any kind. Doss became the first conscientious objector to be awarded the Medal of Honor, for service above and beyond the call of duty during the Battle of Okinawa.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2119532/
glad to see that no one on the PhxP thinks that war is a good solution… there is a reason that men who have seen combat won’t talk about it…
i believe that China is the one supplying the NOKOs with technology (stolen from the West in large part, but they’re not dumb) … China, Russia, Iran and North Korea whew… the first two know that they’re playing with fire, the latter two are their clients used to keep the rest of the world off balance and distracted at best… let’s hope they don’t burn the world to cinders as they play their chess game… we who believe the Bible know that they won’t do so, of course, but they could sure make it not a nice place to live…
#20 Descended. I hear you re: sounded better in my head than it did on the page. BTDT myself. Appreciate the acknowledgement.
Also am used to an edit button. (Well, except for Twitter. But then again, I can delete a tweet. Not so a comment). Edit: Not for words, but I’d’ve liked to have closed the the </strong> (bold) tag in one of the comments. I didn’t, and a whole bunch of stuff was made unintentionally bold.
RUS propping up NK nukes. I think there’s a NYT story that delves into that. Saw only the headline, so I posed it above as a question, not a definitive statement
Oh, on studying war, one last book recommendation: Eric Schlosser’s Command and Control. Book examines one nuclear weapon accident, a whole bunch of near misses, and the challenge that armed forces have to ensure we don’t detonate nukes by accident. Mistakes never happen, right? Right?!? The chance that the next nuclear explosion is going to be a lethal oops! is extremely high. Anyway, Schlosser goes there. The loss of sleep you’ll get from the book is well-earned from his well-researched, well-told story.
Anne
page on “dank”, I’m still lol
https://www.google.com/amp/www.urbandictionary.com/define.php%3fterm=Dank&=true
At any rate, your friend’s fb post is frightening in that it pastes the social mores of our era over those of the past. I think freedom of expression applies to the living as well as the dead.
Those statues represent the ugliness and horror of a nation divided. It should always be before us, and our children should be reminded of how people subjugated others to the point of slavery. Striving to cleanse or purge our nation of horrible ideals by mob mentality is/was the method of communists (even though Antifa may be able to dodge that one particular political label). There are many such groups in existence in the US who have been tolerated for the sake of political correctness. I think they are at a critical mass now and will succeed by sheer momentum at destroying some idealized “oppression”. Only what will be left will be useless when they are finished. It is like handing a priceless heirloom from a grandparent to a four year old to cherish and maintain. When they finish compartmentalizing it, it is broken and worthless, and Mom and Dad don’t possess the wherewithal to fix it.
OTF
God bless you, brother.
Turned the photo into a meme
https://www.instagram.com/p/B8kQYHlpqgR/?igshid=walbl3rrpxnr
Anyone know or can speculate on how the neo-Calvinist movement within the SBC
intersects with this? My uneducated hunch would be that they’re leading the parade
of the breakaway group…
sorry, wrong thread!