Kevin’s Conversations: Another Time When Jesus Wept

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94 Responses

  1. Dan from Georgia says:

    Good stuff Kevin. No need to say more.

  2. Anne says:

    One of the best pieces I’ve read on so many heart wrenching issues facing us today, Kevin. Well done! Thank you!!

  3. Michael says:

    It is one the best I’ve read. Proud that we were able to host it.
    Well done,Kevin.

  4. Dallas says:

    Kevin, if it weren’t so personally entertaining to hold onto, I’m pretty sure that you would be the person to get me to drop my stereotype toward people from Philadelphia.

    This was excellent.

  5. Kevin H says:

    Thanks for the kind words everyone.

  6. Kevin H says:


    If you want to help maintain your stereotypes, I could say some disparaging things about the Penguins if you’d like. 🙂

  7. CostcoCal says:

    Wow! A great read. Both for us and on your part, Kevin.

    “Jesus is Lord” is also recorded!!

  8. Al says:

    My response is Boo-f’ing-hoo. Get over it. “Get a life!” <—That's the Chuck Smith answer to those who suffer Injustice.

  9. Al says:

    Here’s some more responses:

    “It’s not my problem. I’m independent.”

    “So sorry for you, now be warm and be filled. No, nothing I can do.”

    “You’re bitter and unforgiving!”

    Hey, I like the Calvary Chapel strategy and tactics! There ya go BLM. Chew on that 😉

  10. Al says:

    Oh, BLM should “Leave it to the Lord!”

    And, “Pray about it!”

    And, “Let God deal with it!”

  11. Al says:

    The “church” is so full of bulls***t.

    So is politics.

    Giant Meteor 2016.

    God should’ve stuck to his original plan of flooding the whole earth and starting completely over with another species.

  12. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Kevin, great article – the Bureau of Land Management just does not get enough attention lately. 🙂

  13. Al says:

    “the Bureau of Land Management ”

    Speaking of arseholes….

  14. Michael says:

    The question is how can we reboot these discussions in a way that leads to productive dialog and real solutions.
    My guess is that it won’t happen until we’ve committed social suicide and lost something or someone that matters to us.

  15. Al says:

    Well, at least with the Cops, they have to wear Body Cams and there is a ton of scrutiny on them….more scrutiny than any other Entity in our Current Context.

    We see the shootings within days, we hear about them within minutes. We know the whole story very quickly.

    Let’s put Body Cams on Pastors and Politicians and on Drug Dealers and Gang members and Criminals and Child Molesters etc. Let’s get that level of scrutiny on those a-holes.

  16. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Society is made up of individuals – just as individuals are imperfect at best and really dysfunctional at worst – society is the same. We do not know how to do it right – on either side.

    I was watching the guy get shot in San Diego yesterday. Now to me, the cops should have tazed the heck out of the guy at the very first instance of his non compliance. Just put him down right away and figure it out later. But the cops know they will catch hell.

    So they wait for it to be uncorrectable and end up blowing the guy away. So we have tragedy.

    People, I don’t care what race – teach your kids to respond properly to the police – just comply and take up your grievance later.

  17. Michael says:


    This is not helpful.
    The demonization of others is what has got us in this mess and will prevent us from getting out before there are real life costs.
    The cost of winning an insult contest may be the life of someone we love.

  18. Al says:

    War is inevitable. It’s Human Nature. There will be blood. Always.

    “Until the blood is bridle high….”

  19. Michael says:


    That’s the primary point I’m trying to get across to the kids at the skatepark.
    Comply and complain later…and it’s not working very well.

  20. Al says:

    Ironically, if there’s any literal truth to Revelation, Jesus is coming back from outer space with a bunch of friends and is gonna bring and arse-whoopin with him and slaughter mankind “until the blood is bridle high”.

    Strangely, it fits with with the Marvel Comics theology of aliens and other dimensions etc and supernatural beings coming to earth to conquer us.

    But, I don’t believe Revelation is literal. It’s likely all metaphor for Human Nature.

    We’ll kill ourselves off.

  21. Michael says:

    War is not inevitable, war is a choice.
    I do not choose to sacrifice my boy because adults want to hurt each other rather than talk to each other.

  22. Al says:

    “Comply and complain later”

    Good practical advice.

    The Cops are largely better armed and better trained than most of you are and they have lots of friends who will show up to kick your arse thoroughly.

    Comply. Be professional and respectful. If they cross a line, get a lawyer. If you can’t afford a lawyer, then blog about it and use your Free Speech rights etc.

  23. Al says:

    “War is not inevitable, war is a choice.”

    It’s part of the Human Nature and Human Cycle and if there is truth to Revelation, War is inevitable. Maybe not specific to the BLM stuff, but in general.

    In the BLM context, ya, you won’t win a War with the Cops. You’ll likely get shot and/or go to prison.

  24. Duane Arnold says:

    “We are confronted primarily with a moral issue. It is as old as the scriptures and is as clear as the American Constitution.
    The heart of the question is whether all Americans are to be afforded equal rights and equal opportunities, whether we are going to treat our fellow Americans as we want to be treated. If an American, because his skin is dark, cannot eat lunch in a restaurant open to the public, if he cannot send his children to the best public school available, if he cannot vote for the public officials who will represent him, if, in short, he cannot enjoy the full and free life which all of us want, then who among us would be content to have the color of his skin changed and stand in his place? Who among us would then be content with the counsels of patience and delay?”

    John F. Kennedy
    June 11, 1963

    It’s now 53 years later….

  25. London says:

    A few years ago, a black man I had known personally in high school, someone smart, strong and funny, was killed by police.
    He had grown up and started having mental health issues, including schizophrenia. He was a big guy, a football player, which, I’m sure, intimidated police.
    I’m not sure he was entirely capable of complying immediately to what the police said. They shot him over 42 times, in public, in front of children, because he wouldn’t put down the plastic knife he had in his hand. The police knew it wasn’t anything but a plastic knife. They still killed him.
    He did not deserve to die that way.

  26. London says:

    Just for the record, my father was part time in the police department most of my childhood. I knew some of the police who were killed by criminals too.
    I understand the fear of wondering if your family member will come home at night after being on patrol.
    I understand. These stories are not just social media fodder for debate. These are real people, with real families.

  27. Erunner says:

    Your best article Kevin.

  28. Al says:

    We kill each other. It’s part of the Design, part of the Plan. You won’t stop it.

  29. Al says:

    Though Scientists do conclude that we can become more pacific with a change in “CULTURE”

    My premise regarding the abnormally high rates of violent crime among blacks in the US (Black males make up 6.6% of the US population, yet commit 52% of the murders and a majority of the violent crime)….is that it isn’t a Race/Ethnicity issue…it is a CULTURE issue.

    Change the Culture, mitigate the bad results.

    Police Culture is similar. Change the Culture, mitigate the bad results.

    But, truth be told, only 96 blacks are killed by white cops each year in the US, a nation of over 300 Million…that number is shockingly low and not nearly a “Crisis”…especially since evidence shows the vast majority of those 96 had it coming b/c they presented a legitimate threat to Cops and public safety.

  30. Al says:

    Now, if a Media Agenda shows every single one of the 96 black shootings by white cops every couple of days….then they foment and manufacture a “Crisis” and here we are.

    If the Media reported ad nauseam every single Black on Black murder….you’d be so inundated you would curl up in the fetal position b/c that is truly a “Crisis” as over 4,472 Blacks are murdered by other Blacks each year in the US….that’s double-digits….every. single. day. #BlackLivesMatter?

  31. Michael says:


    I”m sick to death of that kind of reasoning and I won’t have it on my blog.
    I don’t want to live in fear of others ,nor do I want them to fear me.
    I do not want to live in a world where I must be armed to go to the store or the park because the level of hate and vitriol has risen to the point where instead of talking about taking up arms,we’ve done so.

    We have real issues in this country but they will not be solved by minimizing the concerns of any group.

    They can be solved if we actually listen to each other and make real attempts to do something constructive instead of trying to bring another insult to degrade each other.

  32. Em ... again says:

    this shouldn’t be a blame game at all – it should be a problem solving issue…
    every ethnic group has a strata of stupid people in it… it seems to me that we are allowing stupid to run the show these days… dunno, tho … do i ? 🙁

  33. Em ... again says:

    Jesus wept? is He weeping because a scared for his life cop, who probably loves his family more than the person/suspect he’s confronting, erred on the side of self preservation rather than risk his own life in super-human forbearance and discretion? is He weeping because a teenage kid full of testosterone and resentment at being a marginalized poor boy decides to make his stand by bucking the law?

    there will always be criminals and some will be cops, but that isn’t the crisis we’re looking at right now… IMV…

    i think – dunno – that Jesus is weeping because our instincts seem to lean to looking for fodder to stimulate our indignation and then finding a scapegoat(s) instead of a solution…

    i’m accusing our society, not the folk who visit Michael’s blog-site and read Kevin’s wonderful food for thought post today 🙂

  34. Kevin H says:

    Thanks again for the kind words from many.


    I believe Jesus is weeping because: 1) lives are being lost, and 2) we aren’t handling those lost lives and all the attending issues very well as a culture as a whole.

  35. Jean says:

    Thank you Kevin for adding a balanced and sensitive voice to this important cultural issue.

  36. Owen Wells says:

    Kevin, I applaud you….

    As I read your post, after each paragraph my mind was coming up with responses…. but then the next paragraph took them away.

    This kept happening in my mind as I read the post.

    You did an amazing job of addressing all sides, and making us all think.

    The end result is – all I have left to say is the whole issue is just. plain. wrong.

    And I am sure Jesus is weeping over it….. meanwhile, the devil is having a great time dividing us.

  37. Dallas says:

    Yes, a Cindy Crosby comment would be helpful. 🙂

    If anything has come out of this for me, I think that I am coming to realize that there are a lot of things going on right under my nose that I have been very much unaware of. This is a topic that I will absolutely refuse to be an Internet expert on.

  38. surfer51 says:

    Kevin has earned the keys to the front doors here!

    Just as I was leaving my work today, I saw a black man with a carpet cleaning service van parked across from my work truck.

    He was a big guy.

    I thought to my self about the fact that he was vulnerable just by his skin color coupled with his size.

    His vans side doors were open and he had a hose running into the home where he was carpet cleaning.

    By what has been happening lately to black men I couldn’t help but think about the odds of Newport Beach police showing interest in him because of his color.

    He and I were both working on Lido Island, a mostly white neighborhood.

    I got a sadness thinking about how I would most likely not even get a second glance if the police drove by because of my skin color, but he would get a little more attention.

    That thought has to have made him nervous if he gave it any attention.

    I once talked with a contractor my age, who was black, that worked in the same neighborhoods that I have.

    He told me that there are rules that he abides by that I don’t have to abide by.

    One of them is that I can run from my work truck to the house that i am working in.

    He said that he cant do that.

    He has to walk so as to not unduly draw attention to himself.

    Some one seeing a black man running in a white neighborhood might call the police

    He has to wear his tool belt at all times, or his tool box to indicate to others that he is “working” in the neighborhood and not up to mischief.

    I never have to give any of these things a thought while at work.

    I run back and forth to my work truck and no one ever pays me any attention.

    How can men live with this fear just because they were born black?

    Just looking at what has been happening around the country shows that these things are not imaginary.

    If your black watch your back is no way to live.

    Black lives do matter to God.

    I see young black men around my city and I sympathize with them for what it must be like.

    Something that I personally know little about, but enough to know how rough they must have it in their country, America.

    Ya Jesus wept one more time…

  39. Kevin H says:


    You’re talking about the Crybaby, right? 🙂

  40. Al says:

    Sick to death of “reasoning”….well, let facts, data and logic guide you…it is more reliable that emotions and false conclusions based on propaganda w/o evidence.

  41. Al says:

    Blacks have been mistreated, no doubt. Slavery was a great sin. Pre-Civil Rights Movement and major Institutional laws changing….it was tough for blacks to get a fair shake.

    Today? C’mon, not buying the “poor me” stuff.

    It would be akin to Calvary Chapel making wholesale changes, finally…having requirements in their by-laws to hold Pastors accountable, having Membership appointed Boards and actual Membership and power for the tithers/givers, having a clear simple mechanism for firing the senior Pastor, having an apparatus to air beefs by Members with the Pastor and a process to get those beefs heard and resolved, mandatory Transparent Finances so the public can see where they spend the Jesus money….

    ….and then a bunch of people whining and complaining that “nothing’s changed!”

    If Calvary Chapel did all those things, I’d shut the hell up.

    In general, America has done a TON and structurally changed all the things Martin Luther King Jr. was whining about. The Cops even wear Body Cams now and it couldn’t be much more Transparent.

    Yet, a lot of folks still whine. I don’t get it.

  42. Jean says:

    Just to be fair, there’s a large constituency on the other side of the political spectrum doing same thing, but over a different set of grievances. But, what many on both sides who are complaining fail to do is take personal responsibility for their circumstances.

  43. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Perhaps this is the root of the problem – that the racists don’t think this is a racist comment – “all the things Martin Luther King Jr. was whining about. ”

    But then racists never look in the mirror – so how would they know.

  44. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I want to look at the Jesus wept. In scripture when we look at all atrocities and wrong doings – Jesus’ reaction is not to weep but to hang himself on the cross.

    The only time we see him weep, is when he is proclaiming final judgement on his people at the end of Matt 23.

    (Not to take anything away from Kevin’s message as I do understand the imagery.)

  45. Michael says:

    There has not been an election in my lifetime based more on lies and lunacy than this one.
    It’s all about emotion.

    First let’s deal with the logical fallacy you repeated above.
    I’ve seen it a hundred times and it goes like this.

    “Because there is an issue with black on black crime,the other grievances of blacks today are invalid. African Americans need to deal with that first,then I’ll listen to other claims of racial inequality.” “Maybe”.

    The idea that the U.S. has solved it’s racial problems is laughable.
    We were lyncing blacks in the 1950’s…in the sixties there were still signs on either side of Grants Pass warning them to leave town before sundown.
    In the eighties,when I would have lunch with our only African American policeman here,we both wore bullet proof vests.
    In your own state there are active pockets of white supremacists.

    There is a real issue with black on black crime…but that doesn’t mean that the other concerns are invalid.

    What is never said is that violent crime is down all over the country, and the safest cities are…on the border.

    Facts and figures mean little to nothing this year..the facts are that the entire debate over Mexico and immigration is based on a series of indisputable lies and half truths.

    The facts are that as much as I’d like to see treaties like NAFTA amended, a President cannot do so simply because he waves his pudgy little fingers. It would take three countries governmental bodies agreeing to a new treaty.

    The facts are that Islam really is a threat, but there is also a massive refugee crisis.
    That is not a simple issue, but a complex one.

    All of these issues are complex, but we act as if all it takes is a stronger will and a bad attitude to solve them.

    We aren’t speaking soberly to issues to find real solutions…and the biggest ones aren’t discussed at all.

    That is the fact.

  46. Em ... again says:

    interesting to read the comments on this thread – most reflect a view point that is accurate from one perspective even when countering, to an extent, another’s…

    Martin Luther King was a hero – a man of the hour – after WW2 black Americans had had it with their lot and were fomenting a powerful and a destructive (for all of us) uprising… King finessed us all through that period of time to a good outcome…

    if anyone can claim ownership to the rights and privileges of a prosperous USA, the Blacks can as they have certain bought and paid for their share…

    IMV, slavery was not half as evil as the post Civil War era, particularly in the South where blacks were treated as sub human… however, for the record, Jews could not live in many neighborhoods (the deed to our old house in Seattle had a clause – invalid by the 1960s – prohibiting Jews and Blacks from owning property in the area), nor could the Jews check into certain hotels, join Country Clubs etc. – i suspect Jonas Salk could not have bought his home in La Jolla, nor could he have stayed at the Coronado Hotel before WW2. i, too, grew up in a town where blacks had to be out of town by sunset… awkward, as many worked there during the day cleaning houses and tending toddlers… hope your bus wasn’t late, cuz if it was the police would give you a ride to the city limits and let you out down by the Los Feliz fountain… not quite sure where the trolley and bus stops were down there… for the record, my Christian family was against and spoke out about this injustice to the blacks… they weren’t too sure about the Jews back then, tho 🙂

    does Jesus weep over every single human injustice? perhaps… but more to the point now, do we? and even more to the point, are we looking for ways to solve problems or just for scapegoats to label?

  47. Al says:

    “In your own state there are active pockets of white supremacists”

    Actually, Idaho has very few of those, it’s a popular Myth. The Mormons/LDS are actually pretty socially liberal, less conservative than Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel.

    Speaking of which….talk about a “white” church…how many black folks in Calvary Chapel? Yikes. I was told Chuck didn’t like black folks too much. He was an old school Orange County guy.

  48. Al says:

    I agree with a lot of the rest of your reply, though. You make some valid points.

  49. Al says:

    BTW, Deutsche Bank may be the Black Swan that pops the Ponzi Scheme Bubbles…and none of this may matter in a few months if we get another Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers.

    99.99999% have zero clue what’s going on. The Credit Markets are freaking out right now about what very few even realize is happening recently. But, I think the Powers that Be will paper over this one and we won’t see the Systemic Collapse for 10 more years.

  50. Josh the Baptist says:

    “Yet, a lot of folks still whine. I don’t get it.”

    Of course not. You are white. You don’t have the experience to be able to relate.

  51. Al says:

    “Of course not. You are white. You don’t have the experience to be able to relate.”

    I’m human. I can relate to suffering Injustice. I was beaten like a black slave by a Calvary Chapel pastor and no one cares in Calvary Chapel, including Chuck Smith who told me to “get a life” etc.

    I can completely relate. Pastor Sandusky made me shower with him and beat me with belts and paddles and left me bruised and bleeding. Did he ever go to jail for it? Nope. Instead a Calvary Chapel Board approved Calvary Chapel Church Donor money they gave “to Jesus” to sue me for speaking out and exposing the Abuse. They’ve spent nearly $300,000 of church money to sue me.

    That’s quite an Injustice. I know what Injustice is.

    Yet, I cannot riot, burn down cities, say things like “kill the cops!” etc and claim I’m a “protester”. Nope, I have to keep it inside the lines and remain peaceful.

    I understand Injustice, I live it every single day. I also have to remain peaceful and use my First Amendment Right to fight it and not go all Malcolm X and Domestic Terrorist like the BLM “protesters” are doing and getting away with.

  52. Al says:

    I hear all you holy Christians all up in arms about perceive Injustice.

    I’ve also heard many of you criticize me and mock me and rail against me for being passionate and not just letting it go in my case of Injustice.

    Some of you are a bunch of hypocrites. You give one set of advice to me and quite another to BLM.

  53. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Your tribulation was not done to you because of your race or ethnicity – it was done because you ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Perhaps decisions should have been made earlier by your guardian to remain with Dad #1 – but even that piss poor decision does not override the evil done to you by that indidvidual.

    Race and ethnicity are a horse of a different color – look at this

  54. Josh the Baptist says:

    I have two very dark black teenage nephews. One is 15. 6’2″ and about 280. Dark, dark skin.

    I go to Walmart with him and my petite 13 year-old blonde haired blue eyed daughter.

    If I told you people treat them the same, I’d be lying.

    It’s just the way it is Al. You had a rough upbringing, and I did too. Still, we are not viewed with the same distrust and suspicion as black people in America.

  55. Al says:

    “we are not viewed with the same distrust and suspicion as black people in America.”

    Josh, I’ve been discriminated against for being white. Go to a black neighborhood and hold up an “All Lives Matter” sign being white and see what happens to you. Joey Salads did a social experiment to this….he got assaulted several times.

    Blacks hate white people, many of them…just for being white.

    Injustice happens. I don’t buy the excuse that b/c of some perceived Injustice by blacks that it gives them free license to be Domestic Terrorists and to get away with rioting, burning down cities, killing cops, looting, calling for the death of cops and whites etc.

    Bullspit. I gotta keep it inside the lines, so do they. #Equality

    I don’t extend the soft bigotry of low expectations. They can white all they want, sit in protest, fine. Stop excusing a BLM “Movement” that promotes and practices Violence and terrorism.

    Or, make it the Wild West with no cops, not Rule of Law…then fine, take the gloves off ALL of us and see what happens. The body count would be staggering. But don’t pick and choose who has to follow the rules and who doesn’t.

    No Lives Matter. None are special. Or, All Lives Matter.

  56. Al says:

    They can whine above LOL, the damn autocorrect is RACIST! It corrected it to “white” haha

  57. Josh the Baptist says:

    Wow. Bro. You are racist. I don’t think you know it, or intend to be, but you are.

    You have to try to empathize with others. You can’t just ask for permission to shoot them if they scare you.

  58. Al says:

    MLD, Injustice is Injustice. It may take on a different set of circumstances, but Human Beings all suffer Injustices.

    Blacks are not special and unique in that regard. I don’t give them a free pass to go all Malcolm X and “Burn the motherf****r down!” or, if you’re cool with that, then let’s suspend the laws for all who have suffered Injustices….and see how that goes. C’mon, turn me loose. You’d be begging for Cops.

  59. Josh the Baptist says:

    Does this seem like informed, reasonable talk to you Al?

  60. Al says:

    Josh, that is a terrible accusation to make. I consider black people to be equals and fellow humans in the modern human species, no different than any other flavor of human.

    I simply don’t extend them special privilege to break the laws in such a manner b/c they suffer some Injustice. Equal Protection Under the Law extends in all directions. If you excuse breaking the laws b/c of Injustice then you open Pandora’s box. MLD Jr. was peaceful. BLM is not.

    Calling someone “Racist” is a cop-out (pardon the entendre) and the word has lost its meaning b/c people like you have used it as a socio-political weapon inappropriately. Shame on you.

  61. Al says:

    Josh, I will never respond to you again. You are a scumbag. Karma will deal with you.

  62. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Al – my point was that blacks in America and Jews in Nazi Germany (see my link at #53 – suffer the justice just for who they are.

    Your injustice was caused by a bad person and by a person who made a bad decision in your proxy.

  63. Josh the Baptist says:

    Sorry Al. I wish you’d deal with your rage instead of hating me but so be it.

    If you aren’t willing to try and listen when generation after generation of black people has said there is a problem, what does that make you? Seriously?

    I’ll cop to being a scumbag though.

  64. Josh the Baptist says:

    “MLD Jr. was peaceful. BLM is not.”

    MLK was an individual. Violence followed him everywhere he went.

    BLM is a loose group of thousands. OF course violence follows them.

  65. Al says:

    I suffered Injustice.

    I get a free pass, that’s your message so STFU.

  66. Josh the Baptist says:

    When someone says Black Lives Matter, there is no assertion that other lives do not matter. They are saying there there has been less value placed on the life of a black man, than that of a white man through USA history.

    OF course all lives matter. But that has never been the issue in this country. Everyone agrees on that. It is the black lives that have been systematically oppressed, enslaved, lynched, segregated, and killed by our police. That’s why they are crying Black Lives Matter.

    To feel the need to call back all lives matter, or some other qualifier, is possibly racist in and of itself.

  67. Michael says:

    We’ve all suffered injustice.
    We have not all suffered systemic injustice that is ingrained into the culture as a whole.
    Where institutions perpetuate injustice, it’s important to call that out and find solutions.
    I do not think violence is the appropriate solution to this or many other issues that confound us.
    I insist that this discussion continue in civility or not at all.

  68. Josh the Baptist says:

    To compare your injustice to that of an entire race is very…odd. Surely you can see beyond that.

    Besides, we have all spoken on your behalf in your situation. We’ve believed you and stood on your side.

    I’m just wanting to do that for my black family too.

  69. Josh the Baptist says:

    “I do not think violence is the appropriate solution”

    I do think it important to point out that 95% of the protesters in Charlotte agree with you.

  70. Josh the Baptist says:

    I didn’t intend to be un-civil. I do think it important for white people to rethink some of our deeply held cultural biases. Sometimes we have to face the fact that we have do have racism living inside of us, and we are part of the problem. If we do not do that as individuals, you can expect us to continue the march towards racial war in this country. I can’t afford to let that happen. I have two black nephews, a black brother-in-law, two b-racial nephews, a Vietnamese brother-in-law, and three Vietnamese / White nieces. I really don’t want to lose any of them.

  71. Michael says:


    I completely agree…

  72. Al says:

    Child Abuse is not analogous? Interesting. You are so in love with your particular injustice that you are willing to claim that the Cause against Child Abuse is somehow not as important.

    Good to know.

  73. Al says:

    So, basically you’re saying you understand why some people get very upset about Injustices and get frustrated with our System and that it seems nothing ever changes?

  74. Al says:

    You also seem to be sympathizing with BLM and understand why they are so angry about Injustices and that we need to consider what they are saying and not dismiss them as angry and bitter and point out their anger as an excuse to ignore the Injustices they are trying to correct? Do have that right?

  75. Michael says:

    I think there was a time when child abuse was culturally systemic and practiced in institutions.
    We’re making progress on that front.
    The way we’re making progress is by all of us examining our own hearts and practices and becoming aware of whats going on around us.

    I know I have a racist heart.

    Despite having people closer to me than almost anyone else that are people of color,I have a racist heart.

    I have to see that and act on it.

    The greatest problem with the abuse issues was people claiming that it doesn’t really happen or it doesn’t happen as often as we claim…and we can’t to the same things when people point out other oppression and injustice.

  76. Michael says:

    What happens with BLM and similar groups is people ignore the case because of the way it’s presented…which leads to more strife and frustration.

    We have to work together to find a better way.

  77. Al says:

    “The greatest problem with the abuse issues was people claiming that it doesn’t really happen or it doesn’t happen as often as we claim”

    Agreed. And then Victim Blaming and then telling the victims to “get over it” and “get a life” etc. basically what Chuck Smith told me and what Calvary Chapel pastors on this blog have told me.

  78. Michael says:

    Which is also what we tell BLM…

    We have to work together to find a better way.

  79. Al says:

    I’ve been told to shut up many times on this blog for crying out about the Injustice I’ve faced.

    I go on and on, and I’m basically shown the door. Told to shut up, essentially, and to “get over it” essentially and move on.

    Yet the Injustice has not been resolved, it is ongoing.

    Why the different treatment?

  80. Michael says:

    What I’ve said repeatedly is that if anyone wants to be heard they have to talk in such a way that people will listen.

    White people don’t speak the language of riots and looting so what BLM does is very counter productive when they incite such things.

    On the blog, every thread can’t be your personal platform…people just leave and write you off as they go.

    Leadership that brings real change and not just strife requires raising above such and speaking so both sides know they have been heard and agree to work toward real solutions.

  81. Babylon's Dread says:

    This blog has often been devoted to church abuse…

    One day I’d like to see a discussion of all the abusers that the church has to put up with.

    The sick people who bring their darkness into the church and blame you for confronting it are legion.

    In corporate social communities basic manners and common decency is a requirement. When you confront people for their refusal to cooperate they often… OFTEN cry wolf. Lots of wolves cry wolf.

  82. Michael says:


    I also understand that both you and BLM share a common frustration…that being that those who are causing the pain won’t acknowledge that injustice has occurred at all and refuse to come to the table in a meaningful way.

    Sometimes I want to riot myself…but I’ve never seen the sense in burning down my own property. 🙂

  83. Michael says:


    Write it up and I’ll print it…

  84. Xenia says:

    Just speaking for myself, whenever “Al” gets on a roll I depart from the blog. I don’t come to the PhxP to be insulted so rather than get angry, I leave for a while.

  85. Michael says:


    I hear you and so does Alex.
    We’re working together to have a strategy where his justified frustration doesn’t boil over here and we still address the issues.

    I’ve spent time with him personally and he really is a fine man offline.

    We just need to merge his offline and online personas. 🙂

    I thank you all for your patience with both of us.

  86. Erunner says:

    It seems we are living in a time that people are afraid to say how they truly feel because of what others will think of them. People who will vote for Trump or Hillary will not say so because of the reactions it would cause with some. So they remain silent.

    I’m one that understands as best I can the idea of BLM. I watched Selma the other day and I realized the terrible things black Americans suffered for no reason other than being born black. I can’t imagine being black and driving down the road and getting pulled over because I was black and how blacks must be the perfect foil for racist cops who would love nothing more than hurting you or hauling you off to jail. I know a few people who laughed about kicking blacks etc. while in custody out of sight of any cameras. I know racists and have a few in the extended family. I can’t relate to the hatred they spew and the backwards thinking they hold to. I would include believers among these people. Some of the worst talking was from a few senior believers who never left the backwards thinking they grew up with. I was astounded at what I heard.

    I’ve watched the BLM movement from its inception and there are things they have done that have totally turned me off. I don’t believe hurting innocent people, destroying businesses, looting, burning businesses to the ground, or attacking police officers does anyone any good. It serves to polarize people and hardens them to hearing those who have good intentions and want to help.

    I also believe people who are not racist one bit are saying they are which I don’t understand. I think we all have the potential to be racists, murderers, thieves, etc. By God’s grace He has allowed us to not succumb to our base desires in these areas. Yet none of us is without sin. I believe very deeply there are scores of blacks who have not a racist bone in their body which is amazing considering the black experience in our country.

    My family has experienced the worst type of prejudice. As I’ve stated often my mother is a Nazi Germany survivor. She lost many family members to the camps because they didn’t believe Hitler posed a real threat. My fathers family migrated from Russia during the reign of Lenin as they were Christians. To a much lesser degree my wife has dealt with prejudice being a Mexican.

    I’m saddened that many I know see the new president as being able to cure all of our ills and if you disagree the war is on. When we elevate any person to the position of savior we become guilty of idolatry.

    Our nation is a powder keg with what seems to be a very short fuse.

    It’s sad because we don’t even seem capable of having civil conversations any more. How can we move forward if we can’t even talk?

    I happen to believe things aren’t going to get a whole lot better as man continues to show we don’t have the ability to govern ourselves. So we do what we can where we’re at knowing one day there will be a kingdom where God will reign. And all creation moans.

  87. filbertz says:

    we ‘get it’ at a deeper level when one can take the lesson he/she learns (the hard way) and can generalize it to others in their situations. It’s called ’empathy.’ It’s also biblical.

  88. Potatoehead says:

    In all fairness Al does come across with interesting perspective now and then.

    I filter out his cry from the lingering anger of his unresolved issues that comes across and I hear a man who speaks his mind without the trappings of learned “civility” as it were.

    At #47 he is correct about:

    “Speaking of which….talk about a “white” church…how many black folks in Calvary Chapel? Yikes. I was told Chuck didn’t like black folks too much. He was an old school Orange County guy.”

    The origination of Calvary Chapel here in Costa Mesa was a bunch of John Birch types in a trailer park.

    The John Birch Society (JBS) is, in its own words, a conservative advocacy group supporting anti-communism and limited government. It has been described as a radical right and far-right organization.

    Chuck Smith fit in with them with his own concepts initially.

    In the early days Chuck made statements from the pulpit that revealed the JBS thinking.

    But over the years he backed away from much of it.

    Although the church did not have many black people.

    There was “Black Sandy” a much loved girl in the early years of Calvary, and then there was Jerald, a black man who always hung around the place, but few other black people over the decades.

    I used to be amazed that when I attended the Calvary Chapel Saturday night men’s prayer meetings, during the 90’s, not one person ever once prayed for the young Mexican gangs that were shooting each other in Santa Ana every night.

    It must be noted here that Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa is actually located on ten acres in Santa Ana.

    The good old boys just didn’t much care it seems that young men were killing one another nearby.

    Now fast forward to today and there is a thriving diverse congregation there at Calvary.

    I can only wonder what changed…

    A few weeks ago a pastor with history at Calvary Chapel told me that he thought Chuck never really did change his inner heart’s attitude towards the “dirty hippies get a job” mentality.

    Externally he was one way but internally he still had issues.

    Some who knew the man closely, including some family members, have remarked that the Chuck they knew and the one up in the pulpit were altogether two different men.

    They did acknowledge that the one in the pulpit was the real deal under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

    But away from the pulpit an altogether different man.

    As Al has stated more then once here, in his own dealings with the man.

    I have always wondered why men like Oden Fong never got the same “Red Carpet” treatment that Greg Laurie had gotten from Chuck?

    In fact Chuck used Oden to set up the first Pacific Amphitheater crusade for Greg in Costa Mesa that kick started Greg as “The Evangelist.”

    And where is Oden today?

    In a very small room conducting a very small church with a bunch of old people.

    It could have been much different for Oden, but Greg got the brass ring and the “Moses Model blessing.”

  89. covered says:

    I’m curious how some will respond to your post P’head. Interesting observations.

  90. Erunner says:

    Knowing Oden as I do he is content where he is. He was never about fame or money. Mustard Seed Faith of which he was the lead singer toured all over, not charging for their concerts. They wanted to reach the lost.

    Having attended his church I can attest that it was always a powerful time of worship as he, Bill, and Pedro went up and played without a play list.

    They gave as much time to worship as to the teaching of the word. Oden, Bill, and Pedro all taught. Oden was content with that.

    Sadly, Bill and Pedro have passed on and there are others serving with Oden now. We moved on but were richer for our time there.

    I imagine people can criticize Oden for one thing or another but he has thick skin. He’s the real deal.

  91. London says:

    I think this thread has now just gone into pure gossip.

  92. Xenia says:

    In a very small room conducting a very small church with a bunch of old people.<<<

    God bless him.

    Odd that you would think this was a demotion of some kind.

  93. Owen Wells says:


    I don’t know Oden well, but quite a while back I recall you posted about him on your blog. At that time I did quite a bit of reading about him and listened to him for quite a while. I have to concur, he seemed like the real deal to me.

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