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23 Responses

  1. j2theperson says:

    Re: the masculinity movement article…I remember when I was a kid going to see a performance of two christian strongmen who went around performing feats of strength as a way of glorifying God and bringing people into the kingdom. In retrospect it was a really weird concept.

  2. Paige says:

    Ok…I’ve just a second…. and of course the first article I read was the one about women teaching men..

    I had to stop reading before steam came boiling out of my ears or I threw up..

    This kind of insane, inane control freak flap trap is exactly what makes non believers say ‘pfft” and walk away, never giving the church a second thought.

    More later.

  3. Paige says:

    Just read the AMAZING article from our late and missed brother Michael Spence, the Internet Monk.

    A very hearty AMEN and hallelujah….

  4. Owen says:

    Another very hearty AMEN to Michael Spencer’s article about hearing the sermon as the unsaved might…

    Although, part of me has often thought that the sermons were meant more for the growth/shepherding of the flock than for the unsaved. Reaching the unsaved seems to me to be more of a “live out your faith in service to them” thing – “that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven”, or at least wonder why/how a person can be so loving, humble, servant-like and maybe get curious as to our motivation for being so…..

    Very few unbelievers these days take very well to being preached to, IMO….

  5. Steve Wright says:

    I wish that some of these guys, instead of writing the obvious about the church not being a for-profit business, the pastor not simply being a CEO, and reminding us of the obvious as to what is the mission and purpose of the church would instead truly wrestle with the multitude of business issues inherent within every church and the way to best deal with them. And who should be the people who do so…

    Personally, I think far more pastors and elders would be helped by such a series if one would write them. It’s not simply a case of saying “good financial stewardship” as a dismissive pat on the head but wrestling with what that actually entails.

    I assure you that your loan officer, even of a “Christian” credit union or financial institution is going to want a lot more than “theology and liturgy” every five years when your loan comes due and needs to be renewed – and personally, any pastoral/elder leadership that allows the church to be foreclosed on is hardly going to seek comfort in thinking “Well, at least I was not a CEO”

  6. Steve Wright says:

    I would note that MLD will make a valid point on this topic in noting how in Lutheran churches the pastoral roles are separate from the business side of the church – and certainly a strong case could be made along those lines. I do not know how the other denominations do it, but I imagine something more similar to the Lutherans than your average American, community, evangelical church.

    However, the article here is geared towards those American evangelical churches. Thus my above post…

  7. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Steve, you come from a 20 yr plus business background and perhaps you are most qualified to handle “the business”.

    Most guys coming out of seminary (or wherever they come from) probably are not.

    A pastor though may have a good feel for how much the congregation will put up with regarding expenses and growth.

  8. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    One thing I purposely change during my tenure as president (and it required a change of our by laws through a vote – and I did need to do some lobbying) was change a title our pastor held – Chief of Staff.

    Here was the issue – we have a fairly good size school and office staff. When the pastor has to conduct some ‘tough love’ business with staff, is he doing it as boss or pastor? He and I discussed it and when we got down past his pride of not wanting to lose a title, he did confess that he had a hard time being ‘their boss’ and then having to commune and absolve them each week.

    In the 3 years since we have adopted the change everyone seems at ease (or at least as much at ease as a fighting church can be.) 🙂

  9. Erunner says:

    So the ELCA church had a vote that was taken as non support for Israel and the recent Louisiana floods resulted. These same folks go so far as to attribute Hurricane Katrina on statements or policy they saw as anti Israel.

    I believe the ELCA is that part of the Lutheran church that has gone a bit liberal.

    It seems you could cherry pick the news and attribute most anything to anti Israeli policy based on the reading of Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    It seems there are many Christians that hold to this view as well concerning our relationship with Israel. So God kills people who had nothing to do with the vote and destroys countless homes that must include Christians.

    Sad really.

  10. Erunner says:

    I would say that the dress code for Mormons is the very least of their problems. Sadly you can see this type of legalism in Christianity.

    I would hope these silly rules would cause Mormons to look deeper so that God might open their eyes to the fact they are in a no Christian cult that will lead to a Christless eternity.

  11. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “I believe the ELCA is that part of the Lutheran church that has gone a bit liberal.”

    Apostate is the word you were looking for E.

  12. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    But… I will say that most of what is perceived as anti Israel is really trying to make a statement to help the Palestinians who are treated like crap from both side and used as pawns.

  13. Erunner says:

    MLD, apostate it is. I have seen a lot concerning the Palestinians but also other items as well. I have seen through the years the love for Israel many Evangelicals have.

    It worries me when some would attribute disasters and loss of life and property to their reading of Genesis 12:3.

  14. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    My read on the article was that the evangelical group blamed the flooding on the ELCA (and probably all Lutherans as no one knows the difference.

    When you Christian group is called Hebrew Roots – you are an evangelical.

    Is that your read?

  15. Erunner says:

    MLD, Hebrew Roots appears to be a Jewish organization with no indication of Christianity whatsoever. But it appears some Evangelicals take what they say as being true. Sorry for the delay as I had to make a call.

  16. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    E – I think they are Christian –

    Now they may consider themselves Christian – I don’t even like to call the regular Messianic Jew groups Christian.

  17. Kevin H says:

    Hey E and MLD, don’t steal my thunder for tomorrow. 🙂

    Disclaimer: Tomorrow’s article was written before Linkathon and any such reading of the Israel article. 🙂

  18. Erunner says:

    MLD, Where I got confused is that the site the article is on is a Jewish site and the article refers to the Hebrew Roots organization. I believe my wife has a sister who sees herself as a Messianic Jew as opposed to when she was in a mainline Protestant church.

    As my mother is a Jew I suppose technically I am one as well. The difference is we have seen that the Jewish person is lost without Christ. I took her to a Messianic church a few times but I wasn’t too comfortable.

    The idea that believers could believe Joplin, Missouri, Hurricane Katrina and the recent Louisiana floods are a result of perceived Jewish slights concerns me.

    I’ve come to believe the Genesis 3:12 passage was for the people at the time of the actual time it was written but as you know many see it as applying to today resulting in the things we read and hear about.

    I know Messianic Jews incorporate a lot of the old Jewish customs into their service but if they have seen and accepted that Jesus is their Messiah how do you conclude they are not believers? I’m going to read a bit more on the Hebrew Roots movement.

  19. Erunner says:

    Kevin…. so does this all directly tie into your article? Sorry!! 🙂

  20. Kevin H says:


    No need to apologize. I was just kidding. 🙂

    But your discussion does relate in some ways to tomorrow’s article.

  21. Dan from Georgia says:

    Paige (#2)…the Gospel Coalition/CBMW and Mary Kassian has jumped the shark…again! Actually, they did a long time ago.

  22. brian says:

    If they are “apostate” I must be on Kerberos.

  23. Dallas says:

    I’m pretty sure that the biggest deterrent to having a study in my home (outside of space) is that I wouldn’t have any idea what to do with the rest of the house. We took that, “a room without books is like a body without a soul” thing too literally.

    On the other hand, it has seemed like having a house full of books with a toddler in it, is kind of like that Twilight Zone where the man is finally surrounded by the only thing he loves, books, and then breaks his glasses so he can’t read them.

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