Loose Ends

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226 Responses

  1. Scott says:

    Do you have permission to repost the CSN photo?

    Just kidding…

  2. Papias says:

    The best thing I say is: HAPPY BIRTHDAY TREY!!!!

    The rest of this is ON. THE. MONEY.

    And CC guys – the guy yesterday isn’t the only one in your ranks who’s done this – look no further than “Dapper Don” Stewart himself.

  3. Em says:

    today is also my uncle’s 102nd birthday – it’s a good date – Happy 13th, to the new teenager, Trey

  4. Michael says:


    The Don Stewart story goes beyond that…I just have to acquire a document…not that it would matter.

  5. Michael says:


    Hopefully, you’ll be with us as long as your uncle…blessings on you.

  6. Bob says:

    “While evangelicals are pounding the immorality of baking a cake for a gay wedding, some have no compulsions about supporting a serial adulterer.”

    “Raul Ries, Jon Courson, Sandy Adams, and the rest of you CC guys who have known about this for twenty years…the aprons are to your left.”

    Strong words Michael and Amen to them.

    What I find most sad and shameful is these same men, and their clones, preach a doctrine of shunning when it suits them and yet they won’t follow the same rules when it’s one of them.

    When Jesus asked, “who is without sin throw the first stone…” the issue at hand wasn’t finding a sinner or a saint, it was to be consistency with God’s / Moses’ rules. To stone someone requires two witnesses to even be considered worthy of being judged. Additionally the one who gets to throw the first stone is the accuser of the one caught in sin.

    Who gets to throw the first stone? The accuser, and in the case of this thread, the accusers run when it is convenient or embarrassing (maybe because they are a bit too close to the accusation) to throw a stone.

    Yep you’re right Michael.

    Another sad testimony is all the men I know, churched and not, who proudly in their later years proudly show their replacement wife and second set of children. Of course it’s in the movies so why not our homes.

    BTW brian,

    I think you’re right, if they go after this man they effectively hurt their own pocket books.

  7. Alex says:


    NOW THAT is the Michael I know and love!!!

  8. Alex says:

    Scott said, “Do you have permission to repost the CSN photo?

    Just kidding…”

    ROTFLMAO!!! 🙂

  9. Bob says:

    Oh I forgot to mention,

    I think I saw a RCC or two in the crowd supporting the baker. Just saying…

  10. EricL says:

    If only they would bake some humble pie and then take a good bite.

    Have fun celebrating with your new teenager!

  11. Jim says:

    Happy BD to Trey!

  12. Alex says:

    Yes, Happy Birthday Trey!!!

  13. Josh The Baptist says:

    Well said. So true, and should be humbling to us all.

    Happy birthday to your boy!

    Sorry I got bent out of shape on ya yesterday. 🙂

  14. Michael says:


    My apologies for any offense on my own end.
    Sometimes when I shoot from the hip I shoot myself in the leg.

  15. Ms. ODM says:

    The Calvary Chapel pastors you just named, Michael, are the very same dudes who see nothing wrong with donning the gilded set of TBN and act like they’re all just one big happy family. They go on TBN and aid and abet the Crouch dynasty and kiss their cosmetically altered butts — they share in their iniquity. The prosperity gospel pays off for them — may their money perish with them. And you can quote me on that.

  16. Ms. ODM says:

    Michael – contact me privately if I can help you find a document.

  17. Michael says:

    Ms. ODM,

    Will do…

  18. Alex says:

    “CSN radio, where ‘God’s Word!’ is heard”

    I’m hearing their “different Jesus” loud and clear.

    Very instructive.

  19. Oh No says:

    The answer as to why these guys are on the station? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

  20. Bob Sweat says:


  21. Alex says:

    I know, I know, the part-time trolls will come on here when it comes to dealing with “sin” in the “church” and they claim “GRACE!” and “LOVE!” and “DON’T JUDGE!” etc…

    …and they’ll say “THE DEVIL!” is the “ACCUSER OF THE BRETHREN!” etc etc.

    And they’ll cry “GOSSIP!” and “SLANDER!” etc etc, blah, blah, you can set your watch to it.

    They will completely ignore the passages about pastoral Qualifications as well as:

    1 Corinthians 5:12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.

    But, GAYS!?!!? Well, we need to be furious about Gays getting MARRIED! The Gays are everywhere DESTROYING the church! The GAYS are literally dismembering Baby Jesus and burning his little baby parts alive!

    …but that isn’t “Judging” and that isn’t the Devil and that isn’t Not-Grace and Not-Love etc…and that isn’t the clear command in first Corinth’s above.

    Zero credibility has the modern evangelical conservative Corporation church. Zilch. They are as bankrupt as the US Govt. Don’t give them your money or your time and warn others. They are fakes, frauds, phonies, etc even the Greg Laurie’s who market their wares on TBN and CSN yet rail against those outside the church walls (in opposition to scripture) while greedily becoming multi-millionaires from selling their hypocritical version of Jesus*.

    Shame shame shame.

  22. Xenia says:

    It doesn’t have to be either or. Turn off the radio and the oven.

    The Parable of the Pigpen (paraphrased from a sermon given by the recently departed Fr. Thomas Hopko)

    Once upon a time, a man (or a nation) decided the rules of his village were too stuffy. They stifled his god-given creativity and besides, he was bored. So he set out to visit a far land. LIke Jacob’s daughter Dinah, he thought he just take a peep at life in the world where people lived in freedom and happiness, unfettered by the archaic rules of the Village.

    He found much there that pleased him and began to partake of the delights of this new village, which had the picturesque name of Pigpen. Sure, as he did some tentative splashing around he noticed his white Village garments were getting muddy, but he could wash them later, he reasoned, and besides, the mud stains were sort of a badge of honored, proving he was no longer enslaved to the hide-bound ethics of the Village, that he was a free-thinker. Sometimes he had wistful thoughts about the Village but he banished them as relics of backwards thinking.

    By and by he discovered that he was completely covered in mud and that he was no longer distinguishable from the other residents of Pigpen. He married a resident and had many children. The kids sometimes heard nostalgic stories of the Village but to them, the Village was as remote as a colony on Mars. Their own children never heard anything about the Village and didn’t even know it existed.

    Without the rules of the Village to guide them, the people of Pigpen made up their own rules and cultural practices. There was Pigpen TV, Pigpen movies, Pigpen literature and Pigpen art. The schools were run by Pigpen philosophies of education and the courts practiced Pigpen law. Anyone who attempted to follow the old Village rules was mocked, sued, fined, and jailed. Pigpen Law ruled the sty.

    As Michael says, Make your own application.

  23. Em says:

    problem is… we can’t seem to define the difference between casting stones and calling to account

    there is a certain kind of pride that says, “i’ve confessed my sin to God and it’s none of your business.” … a little different than an attitude of humility that says, “yes, i have committed a blatant, self indulgent sin, please forgive me.” … maybe it depends on the time and place …?…. dunno, tho

    while there is nothing we can bring to God when asking for forgiveness, there is something about setting things right with our fellow man… i’ve been pondering again

    some folks who post here are offended by the calling out of these transgressing Christian leaders – i wish we could more clearly delineate the yin and yang between grace and accountability…

  24. filbertz says:

    most of those won’t condemn the ‘brother’ because in doing so, they’d have to condemn themselves. No one can expect unregenerate leopards to change their spots when so-called sheep can’t keep their wool clean.

  25. Alex says:

    Michael is a prophet, but not in the Jacob Prasch sense.

    It’s not about predicting the future.

    It’s about speaking the Truth to power and speaking Truth to your own Group vs. railing against those outside your Group’s walls.

    Michael is a product of Calvary Chapel and a product of conservative evangelicalism and I believe he is as close to a real prophet as we’ll see today as long as he sticks to his convictions and that burning in his bosom that won’t go away.

  26. Michael says:

    I’m not a prophet…
    This stuff makes me weep as much as it angers me these days…I was a mess as I wrote this one.

    Sin doesn’t bother me…I’m a sinner and sinners sin.
    I could give Paul a run for his money as the chief of such.

    What bothers me is the lack of repentance, about the priority of success over standards.

    It bothers me that speaking of these things makes me a target of the wrath of my own spiritual family.

    It bothers me that when we speak we find ourselves very alone to deal with the consequences of what we spoke.

    It bothers me that this is what we leave to the next generation.

    This isn’t what I signed up for and if not for Jesus I would give up and hope to die quietly in my sleep.

  27. Em says:

    “hope to die quietly in my sleep.” truth be told that’s what we all hope for … unless you’re of a certain nameless middle-eastern mindset 🙂

    no, scratch that… i hope for the soon calling out of the Church to meet the Savior in the air … either the Fundy way or the Lutheran way will do….

  28. Michael says:


    Amen, my friend.
    I always hit bottom after articles like this…if I didn’t love the church it wouldn’t bother me at all.

  29. Xenia says:

    From many conversations with well-intended CC pastors, I think I could guess what they might say if questioned about the ethics of staying on one of these compromised media outlets. They would say that preaching (their version of) the Word trumps everything and even if the vessel is tainted, good Bible teaching must be heard. It is a case of the ends justifying the means. As I said, I think in their hearts most of them believe they are doing the right thing. When Bible teaching trumps everything else, this is what you will get.

  30. Xenia says:

    To continue with my parable, they thing they can broadcast on K-PIG and not get muddy.

  31. Michael says:


    There is a lot of truth to that…

  32. Em says:

    side-stepping the issue of “should or shouldn’t,” with regard to a store owner being forced by the government to make their product available to all irregardless, it has occurred to me that comes close to having to have the Beast’s mark to do business… how easily we all will slide into the mindset … how easy it is already to rationalize, to say that the ends justify the means …

  33. Em says:

    we do live in the pig-pen – amen to that … “lead us not into temptation?” it is everywhere we step now … would it be proper to pray to ask the Lord for galoshes?

  34. Michael says:


    It gets back to “putting on the armor of God”.
    In such a world it’s even more critical that the church be what it was called to be…separate and holy.
    I think I’m more convicted of making that in my own life than anybody I’m writing about or for.

  35. Em says:

    amen to #34, Michael – it is more than our feet that we need to protect isn’t it?

    hmmm, hard to put galoshes over feet shed in the gospel of peace … or is that our galoshes?

    it strikes me just now, how many tried and tired serious Christians there are now – how much we need to pray for each other… and how precious are those anonymous, faithful praying saints, who are out there faithfully holding the Church up before God

  36. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “it strikes me just now, how many tried and tired serious Christians there are now ”

    I was just reading of the 100 million Christians in China that were not there a generation ago and they are talking of that number tripling in the next 15 yrs.
    Africa has a similar number … both with their heads and without.

    The Church is in grand shape everywhere although lagging some in America and Northern Europe.

  37. Michael says:


    I just taught on this in our church.
    The problem we have is best exampled by David…who when he went to battle with Goliath didn’t wear Sauls armor.
    That armor didn’t fit.

    We have been putting on the armor of the world instead of the armor of God and find ourselves defeated as a result.

  38. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Perhaps there is great church growth outside the radio range of the CSNs and spiritual death within that frequency.

  39. Dennis says:

    I was involved with Calvary Chapel for 15 years in two different churches, until I began to see the ugly underbelly. My first pastor was an honorable man whom I still respect tremendously-there is still some honorable CC Pastors out there who are faithfully laboring in obscurity.

    As I’ve seen how many people have been hurt and damaged in CC and the system allowed it, it infuriates me and it needs to be exposed.

    I’m thankful I avoided much of the pain that others have experienced –though I didn’t come through completely unscathed- but shame on these men who are more concerned with their own power and position than they are about protecting the sheep. Laying down your own desires, position and rights for the sake of the sheep is the most basic Christ-like job description of being a “shepherd” and it is where they have failed most miserably. In the persecuted church when a man is called to be a pastor, he becomes a target for persecution; if that were to happen in our western context, it would weed out a huge chunk of these false shepherds.

  40. Steve Wright says:

    With great trepidation, I want to ask something. If Kestler has had control over CSN all these years (and I assume that is the case) then is not the criticism of those who broadcast their radio show something that should be ongoing – with his return to the call-in show really not the defining issue? I ask seriously.

    I also note – though plenty of Calvary guys have their shows on the station, there are plenty of non-Calvary guys as well. There is even a Lutheran hour I see in one of the markets. So my question is what responsibility do any of these others have to investigate the moral integrity of the leadership of such avenues for ministering the gospel. Will MLD write the Lutheran hour guy, or anyone else write the McGee foundation or anyone else and urge them to remove their programs – assuming such folks are not regular readers of the PhxP 🙂

    Then does that responsibility transfer to other media. Blog hosting servers? Print publication? If one chooses to do business in the world, such things do not matter, but don’t we often seek Christian alternatives for our business dollars. If I publish a book with a secular outlet, am I more in line with the Lord than if I publish through Moodys or Zondervan and do not do the legwork to find out the spiritual state of the Board?

    I am not sure I agree with the idea that Wiersbe, the McGee foundation, Begg and others are all enablers of Kestler’s lifestyle.

    I could be wrong. However, it is not simply theoretical to me as we have a radio program (though not on any CSN station) and I admit I do not know the marital status of most of those who control those airwaves, nor do I see myself as in alignment with every individual who also may have a program on those airwaves.

  41. Michael says:

    Back when this story broke many moons ago, a lot of the guys left whether for moral reasons or to support Chuck.

    This isn’t a secret in CC circles.

    I know for a fact that all of those I mentioned are aware and have been aware for years of the situation.

    I know this because some of them were in the attack party the first go round.

    I let this go for a long time…I simply don’t have the resources to battle every day.
    It was my obligation to note the return of Kestler…and I have done so.

  42. pstrmike says:

    I was asked today about Calvary Chapel, and if that was the group that Greg Laurie is a part of. I said technically, yes, but we are miles apart in many regards. “Oh”, the person replied.

  43. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I think I have posted 3 or 4 times in the last 2 days pretty much stating that I don’t think Kestler’s action impede anyone from coming to Christ. CSN is strictly a business venture regardless who runs. (as are all Christian radio stations – in fact this is just a radio station that carries Christian content just like Willie’s Roadhouse carried Country music content..

    So, that said, I am not critical of anyone who has Christian content using this radio station.

    Should the man be hosting a Christian show? I wouldn’t tune in.
    I stay at Marriott Hotels even though they give 10% to the devil – no big.

  44. UnCCed@UnCCed.com says:

    Check out this CC king’s abode:
    The story is elsewhere if you think I cherry-picked it or made it up.

  45. Steve Wright says:

    Should the man be hosting a Christian show? I wouldn’t tune in.
    MLD, that is how I think. The same goes true for a disqualified guy being a pastor somewhere. I wouldn’t attend (listen) and would encourage others not to as well.

    But if “my” radio station put someone on one hour that I vehemently disagreed with for whatever reason, would I then have a burden to remove my show? That does not seem to connect.

  46. EricL says:

    Steve @40: You made me think quite a bit on that. Thanks. Maybe I can best answer with this scenario: Say that I wanted to publish my books through a Mormon or Atheist distributor. I wouldn’t have a problem with a non-believer profiting off my work, after all he is providing a service. That is happening right now, since most of my profits come from Amazon and as far as I know Jeff Bezos isn’t a believer. But I would have a problem if he insisted that I inserted a page at the back of every book that proselytized for the LDS or for Atheists United or for…

    In the same way, I don’t see a problem with using CSN as a distributor of a radio program and CSN profiting from that. But it is a problem if they want to then influence the audience you attracted and lead them into heresy. I’m not so concerned about what is happening with behind-the-scenes personnel as I would be with what might surround your program or what they might insist on advertising right afterwards.

    I guess the problem is that Mike Kestler is no longer behind-the-scenes personnel. Now he will be a part of the “face” of CSN and could now become associated with your own ministry in some listeners’ thoughts. I hope I’m making sense here.

  47. Xenia says:

    I think for the uninformed radio listener, the Q and A on these shows would give them the answers that they are expecting to hear from their particular denominational (sic) POV. These kinds of Q and A can be pretty robotic, especially if the “Answer Man” has a computer at the ready.

    I am not a fan of “Bible Answer Man” type programs. No man has all the answers and to title a program “The Bible Answer Man” (as fond as I was of Walter Martin) or “To Every Man an Answer” speaks of hubris. Once a person sets themselves up as someone who can answer every question, be they biblical, doctrinal or moral is setting himself up for a fall, IMO.

    If someone feels that they simply must be heard on the radio, themed topics are probably the safest. I am not even too enthusiastic about broadcasting the Sunday morning sermon, which some EO priests have begun doing, because I believe the Holy Spirit gives a homily to a preacher for his own congregation at a particular time and place.

    Just my opinion.

  48. Lori says:

    What would be so horrible for this man to sincerely come clean on all accounts before God and the world? It would greatly change how I feel.

    I wonder if we would we still be having this conversation if that happened.

  49. Xenia says:

    Lori, if he did so he would have to agree with the Scriptures that he is disqualified in for the job of pastor and we would know he was sincere if he went out and got a secular job.

  50. Alex says:

    Steve W., would you bake a cake for a gay wedding?

  51. Alex says:

    I mean, it’s just a freaking cake, some flour, sugar, frosting…it doesn’t mean you endorse the gay wedding, geeze.

  52. Michael says:


    If that were to happen I would feel much differently.
    Right after I recovered from the stroke the shock would give me…

  53. Alex says:

    There comes a point where the doubling and tripling down of intellectual dishonesty by some of the conservative CC pastors is offensive.

    They can find all manner of rationale to support TBN or CSN…but can’t see how to bake a cake for a gay wedding.

    Very telling.

  54. Scott says:

    Alex, I’m offended that you would minimize the value and importance of cake!

    Cake is much more than that!

    I’m going to report you to the cake board!

  55. Alex says:

    Scott, LOL! Take a number and get in line! 🙂

  56. Xenia says:

    I might bake cakes. A homosexual couple might buy a standard cake. What they did with the cake after that is their own business. Just as if I owned a grocery store, I would sell potatoes and cheese to all customers.

    I would not decorate a cake in any morally perverse way. No little figurines of two men holding hands, no writing that says Congratulation Steve and Pete, no Playboy stuff, either. No cake that says “Congratulations on your divorce” and writing that promotes a non-Christian religion. They can buy the cake and defile it for themselves.

    I would certainly not bring a decorated cake to the reception amid cheers. They will have to transport their own cake.

  57. Alex says:

    X, but you also wouldn’t support TBN or CSN….

  58. covered says:

    Hey Michael, when you have time, you have mail. Nothing important.

  59. Steve Wright says:

    Alex, I bought a small insurance agency from a retiring agent whose office was on Sunset Blvd. in West Hollywood.

    In doing so I acquired multiple homosexual clients, to whom I gave the same level of professionalism as I did to any other clients.

    I am not in the wedding cake business, Alex. What I oppose is the heavy hand of government forcing a political agenda on a brother or sister in Christ through the very transparent action of homosexual activists seeking to harass and eliminate Christians with convictions outside of the Sunday morning service.

    All the charges of hypocrisy and selective outrage that fly around here don’t stick on me, Alex. I have never once had a homosexual couple ask me to marry them but I HAVE refused multiple heterosexual couples who HAVE asked me to marry them – and no doubt a few others have not bothered to ask me because they knew already what my answer would be.

  60. Xenia says:

    Just bake the cake.

    Just offer the pinch of incense to Caesar

  61. Xenia says:

    Alex, there is nothing on either of those 2 media outlets that interests me, no matter who runs them.

  62. Alex says:

    X, would you self-“Affiliate” with a Bakery…let’s call it Clovery Chapelle Bakery…and that Bakery had many Bakers in it who baked cakes for Gay Weddings and even defending the baking of cakes for these weddings as not an issue, grace covers all, don’t judge, etc…heck it’s JUST flour and sugar not an endorsement….would you put the name Clovery Chappelle Bakery of Littletown, California on your building and say you have nothing to do with any of it?

  63. Steve Wright says:

    Let’s remember too the issue was not just cake. It was photography.

    A state mandated requirement that a photographer be forced to take professional photos of a homosexual marriage.

    As long as some of you are enjoying the mocking of persecuting Christians for their beliefs at the cost of the livelihood that supports their families…..at least remember to be as inclusive as possible.

    The pizza place wasn’t even asked by a customer, but just a reporter and that alone was enough to bring the gay gestapo down upon them.

  64. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I would bake the cake – but I would tell them up front that my heart would not be in it and they may wish to look elsewhere. But if they still insisted – then buyer beware.

    I would not deliver the cake and set it up – that is participation beyond where I would go – I would give them the takeout price.

    I would have the same issue making a San Francisco Giants cake.

  65. Alex says:

    …I mean you KNOW the gay wedding cakes are going on. You know who the Bakers are and you know their situations…and you know it is allowed to go on unchecked….but you aren’t at all responsible for any of it even though you participate as an “Affiliated” Clovery Chappelle Bakery?

    Hmm, interesting angle. Slippery. Not honest…but interesting…

  66. Steve Wright says:

    Pretty funny words from a guy who sells guns for a living….

    I’m out.

  67. Alex says:

    Oooo, burn!

  68. Michael says:

    No one is mocking anyone for standing up for their beliefs.
    I am mocking the moral selectivity that is shown about which values to stand for.

  69. Alex says:

    Hey the Big Gay is aggressive, no doubt…and they are over-reaching IMO…but they haven’t risen to the level of drowning anyone or burning them at the stake…yet.

    It’s backlash for how “christians” have abused their “authority” and been unkind and unloving and made taboos of homosexuals for so long.

    It’s not right, but I understand it.

    The gays see your duplicity and hypocrisy and they don’t like you nor do they trust you. Your true belief about Jesus is quite clear to them. That’s why they don’t like you very much…and probably shouldn’t.

  70. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael – tell me what I am missing. the guy is a radio announcer. Where is the disqualification list for radio announcers?

  71. Alex says:

    Nice Loophole.

    No one is a “pastor” really then. They are all just professional speakers!

    Wa-la, Qualifications no longer apply!

    Woohoo! You should be an attorney for Calvary Chapel. Well played MLD.

  72. Alex says:

    That is brilliant actually.

    Problem solved. None of the guys are really “pastors” per se or “Bishops” for that matter.

    Technically they are the CEO’s of that particular individual Corporation and really are Board Members.

    …but don’t bake any cakes for gay weddings…b/c Jesus!

  73. Papias says:

    MLD – If Kestler goes on CSN and is addressed by the title of “Pastor Mike Kestler” – then it applies.

    Still disqualified.

  74. Alex says:

    I remember Chuck Smith telling me to my face that he was “NOT” Bob Grenier’s “Pastor”…and i remember telling him that was surely news to Bob and that I found it odd that Bob introduced Chuck at Calvary Chapel Visalia as “give a warm welcome to My Pastor, Chuck Smith”…

    But, as usual, it’s all in how the Lord spins things…b/c “the Lord” is really whatever the pastors says is “God” to you…which is really the particular pastor’s own imagination.

  75. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Paps, I say the same thing about lady pastors too – regardless how chaste or orthodox.

    The article was about his return to the radio station – not the pulpit. Look I said yesterday he was probably an apostate. But that makes him an apostate radio announcer.

  76. Xenia says:

    Alex, your question was too complicated.

    I would sell food to anyone.

    There is a long list of things that I would not write on a cake, Fred love Jack just being one of them.

    However, I was doing a little thinking just now. While the EO don’t have anything like CSN, we do have a rather large internet presence. We have the very popular Ancient Faith Radio “station” that features all kinds of sermons, lectures, teachings, etc. from EO clergy and laymen. If the owner of AFR were discovered to be a grossly immoral person, would all those priests abandon ship.

    Well, here’s the answer. As an Orthodox enterprise, AFR operates under the blessing of their Bishop, who in this case is Bishop Joseph of the Antiochian jurisdiction. He happens to be a very moral man and if the owner of AFR was compromised in a serious way, he would lose the Bishop’s blessing and no one would choose to be on the station. Either it would be turned over to someone else or a new work would start elsewhere.

  77. Michael says:


    He is still the “senior pastor” of his church despite leaving the pulpit for a season..

    He acts as a representative of Christian authority answering Bible questions for an hour every day.

    The reality is that the last two days here will be forgotten soon, he will continue to prosper, and I will have regained my position as the most hated man in Calvary Chapel.

    The only grace will be that I followed my conscience.

  78. Lori says:

    If he truly and humbly repented publicly I would think other pastors, CC and otherwise, would have a cleaner pathway to air their programs on CSN. I guess there would also need to be repentance on their part, too for “the ends justifying the means” to be there on the first place.

    He’s not actually pastoring in the church, right? He owns the network and yes, he shouldn’t be “hosting” a teaching program. But repentance would go a long way in restoration. I can’t stop believing that God could and would do a beautiful work if he would turn back to the Lord.

    Scratch this… this thinking doesn’t work on so many levels because in the end there would be no listeners anyway as we all would be recovering from the stroke the shock would cause. ;).

  79. Michael says:


    We would have to go to assisted living to recover… 🙂

  80. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael, I am not busting your chops

    You guys give him too much credit for being (1) a Christian and (2) a Christian pastor.- he is a fake who does a radio show to probably mostly fake Christian listeners.

  81. Michael says:


    You’re probably right…but I have much grace for the listeners.

  82. Alex says:

    X, thank you for sharing that.

    EO is a good example IMO. That is integrity and character.

    …not the asterisk laden loopholing and reframing of the “non-denomination denomination” “not-pastor pastors” and “100% independent-but Affiliated-but not responsible for anything” and “Regional Oversight—but we don’t oversee anything that matters” Calvary Chapelites.

  83. Alex says:

    Lying and Pride…two things that are supposedly an “Abomination” to the Lord…and that the Lord supposedly “hates”…but with enough lawyers and your own bull*** you can pretty much undo anything in the bible as exampled by Steve W. and Calvary Chapel.

  84. Lori says:

    Chuck Smith did use the term “reprobate.”

  85. Alex says:

    Chuck was right to deal with Kestler.

    Chuck just wasn’t a man of character. He was a man of convenience.

    If it was me, and I was in Chuck’s position, I would have grinded it out and not given in and not blinked.

    Chuck was not that tough, which is why he waffled so much on so many things.

  86. Papias says:

    “The article was about his return to the radio station – not the pulpit.”

    You do realize that his radio station is his pulpit?

    C’mon MLD…. 🙂

  87. Lori says:

    On of the biggest pulpits in the world.

  88. Xenia says:

    A lot of problems like this seem to come from para-church ministries. (Not all, of course.) Para-church ministries seem to be a law unto themselves, with no one above the head honcho who can pull the plug when things go awry.

  89. Lori says:

    “one of”

  90. Alex says:

    X, it is a great argument for stricter denominationalism.

    It’s very rare you have any real accountability in so-called “non-denominations” like Calvary Chapel of the Independent Fundamentalist Baptists where many abuses go on.

  91. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I am sorry, but my definition of pastor is probably different than many of your – so I have no issue saying he does not serve in any pastoral office when he is sitting behind the mic.

    A pastor preaches the word ,and administers the sacraments along with a visitation program – this guy does none.

  92. Jim says:

    I can’t believe Steve took a progressive pot shot at Alex. Must be something in the water in California.

    God bless you for doing God’s work, Alex. I might just sell my cloak and buy another one in your honor.

  93. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex – which denomination does your independent non denominational church in Eagle belong to 😉

  94. Alex says:

    MLD, do you think he is “living” in the sin of adultery?

    Is he a “Christian” and “Saved” in your Lutheran opinion?

  95. Alex says:

    MLD, a sect of Church of Christ (the non-psycho one) but pretty much independent and a denomination unto itself.

    However, it is the rare example of very solid accountability measures, child protection policies, membership. elected elders, pastor is only one seat at the table, pastor can be fired, the membership owns the stuff not the pastor, finances are transparent, pastor has a mega-church but makes well under $100k per year, lots of the money goes to actually help people and missions etc. pastor is seminary trained with multiple degrees, etc etc.

    It is a very good example of how a conservative evangelical non-denomination can and should be done.

  96. Alex says:

    MLD, they serve the sacraments every service and they publicly baptize members as well.

    The pastor presents the prevailing Consensus views of orthodox Christianity when it comes to doctrinal/theological issues and then he shares his personal opinion of which of the prevailing views is probably correct and why he believes that way.

    It is about the best example I have ever experienced in conservative evangelicalism…and I am as skeptical and jaded as it comes when it comes to that Group.

  97. Alex says:

    Ironically, it looks like Kestler’s ex-wife and new husband are also members, which is good to see b/c it’s a very good church and faith community. I think she’ll get some healing there.

  98. Ixtlan says:

    “A lot of problems like this seem to come from para-church ministries. (Not all, of course.) Para-church ministries seem to be a law unto themselves, with no one above the head honcho who can pull the plug when things go awry.”

    Exactly. And because they have no accountability to a congregation, they can produce statements with such vitriol that infects their hearers, many who become more extreme in their thinking and expression.

  99. Xenia says:

    Alex, I described how things should work in Ortholandia and in the case of AFR and other EO outreaches I think it would work this way, but in the centuries of church history it as not always worked as it should because even the best system can be thwarted by a good ol’ boys club and sometimes you find that your leadership is full of good ol’ boys as in the RCC pedophile scandal. They had a good system set up but too many of the men in leadership were corrupt themselves.

  100. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I thought I was crystal clear
    “MLD, do you think he is “living” in the sin of adultery?” – of course I do – in fact I said a couple of weeks ago I think almost all divorce and remarriage is unbiblical for both parties as I believe no one is guiltless in whatever broke it up.”

    Is he a “Christian” and “Saved” in your Lutheran opinion? – I have been clear – I think he is an apostate. I believe Michael’s testimony on this man and after 12 yrs of rebellion against God, he has lost all rights and privileges that come with being a son of God.

    Now, where I differ with most here I do believe at one time he was saved, has now forfeited his salvation, but he has every opportunity to return.

  101. Xenia says:

    Now, where I differ with most here I do believe at one time he was saved, has now forfeited his salvation, but he has every opportunity to return.<<<

    I believe this, too.

  102. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “It is about the best example I have ever experienced in conservative evangelicalism”

    So you are now retracting what you said was the cause of the CC problem. Being a independent, non denomination denomination has nothing to do with it.

  103. Lori says:

    That has always been my prayer.

  104. Alex says:

    X said, “They had a good system set up but too many of the men in leadership were corrupt themselves.”

    Unfortunately very true.

  105. Alex says:

    MLD said, “So you are now retracting what you said was the cause of the CC problem. Being a independent, non denomination denomination has nothing to do with it.”

    No, my statement was specifically: “It’s very rare you have any real accountability in so-called “non-denominations” like Calvary Chapel of the Independent Fundamentalist Baptists where many abuses go on.”

    Very rare means it can happen, but doesn’t happen as the norm…it is rare IMO.

    Eagle Christian Church is a rare case of solid accountability structure in an independent.

  106. Xenia says:

    This is a little ironic, considering my current views and practices, but years ago when I was a Protestant I had a small web design business and a refused to make a web site for a Catholic lady who wanted to sell her rosaries online.

  107. Alex says:

    “This is a little ironic, considering my current views and practices, but years ago when I was a Protestant I had a small web design business and a refused to make a web site for a Catholic lady who wanted to sell her rosaries online.”

    Which you have the “right” to refuse service, IMO, if it is based on Moral Opinion and not something like Race/Ethnicity.

    However, the Gay Wedding Cake Baking thing is more an issue in pointing out hypocrisy of some conservatives who have no problem with Adulterer Marriage and would bake Kestler a million cakes, no problem, but freak out if it’s a gay couple.

  108. Alex says:

    One of the best commentaries I saw on the whole Gay Wedding Cake Baking thing was the rewording of a bible verse that essentially said if forced or asked to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple, Jesus would have made them two cakes.

    That is the “good” Jesus of the gospels.

    Today’s conservatives take the posture of the OT “God” and want to smite the gay enemies and slaughter them and cast them into hell forever with no end.

    I get the reaction of the conservatives toward the OT “God”..it is very human to want to smite your enemy. I understand that human reaction in spades.

    I don’t understand the “good” Jesus reaction of the NT…to bless those who curse you. That is very much against human nature.

    Make your own application, as our friend Michael says well…

  109. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “That is the “good” Jesus of the gospels.”

    If Jesus the carpenter had been asked to carve an idol for some pagan ceremony, would he have cared them two?

  110. Alex says:

    “Well, Alex, why don’t you turn the other cheek and bless your enemy Bob and just forgive and forget and let it go etc?”

    B/c Jesus, if he is real and our example, treated the Pharisee and Religious Leader very very differently. Jesus as God incarnate held the Pharisees and Religious Leaders and Religious Authority of his day to a very different measure….he whipped and beat the money-changers, he called the Pharisees “snakes” and “hypocrites” and he railed against them and stood against them at every turn b/c they would not repent.

    Jesus was gracious to the sinners, the tax collectors (pawn brokers?), the heathens, the gays, the adulterers etc who were not professing to be of the Religious Establishment acting on behalf of God himself.

    Jesus never relented to the attacks of the Pharisees and Religious Leaders who were corrupt liars and massive hypocrites.

  111. Alex says:

    “If Jesus the carpenter had been asked to carve an idol for some pagan ceremony, would he have cared them two?”

    Dunno. I’m guessing not, but that really isn’t akin to a wedding cake.

    Would Jesus have built tables for a gay wedding? Probably so. He probably would have used it as an opportunity to interact with them and maybe turned their water into wine.

  112. Alex says:

    I really do “love” Jesus. At least the Jesus I “see” in the bible. I think he is the most incredible personality of all time.

    Unfortunately, there are lots of versions of him in “Christianity” and I don’t see too many that resemble the one I see…

  113. Lori says:

    Turned on TEMA for about a minute. I couldn’t stomach any more than that. Kestler certainly does hold onto that pulpit that travels the air with arrogance and self-righteousness. He was speaking about how Christians are known by their love and that sadly many are not showing that love. He did get one thing right, we certainly know him by his love (just not the kind he is speaking of.)

    I gotta step away from this for a little while.

  114. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Everything that anyone brings up, you say is not akin to the wedding cake. 2 points and you perhaps don’t remember your wedding. The cake is (1) the center piece and (2) the promise to nourish and care for each other. I get disturbed when I see the bride and groom stuff the cake in each others face to joke around at a holy and cherished moment.

    I believe the wedding cake is the most important part of a wedding – so don’t sell it short when people object to being involved.

    A carved idol is nothing – read Isaiah. So why would the good Jesus object. Would Jesus be appropriate if during his”table” time with the same sex folks told them to go and sin no more? He was known for doing this.

  115. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Alex, I am working on Matthew 8 & 9 for my May classes. I am trying to figure out you good Jesus here. He says this about people just because they don’t have faith.

    “10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith. 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matt 8

  116. Jim says:


    Your view of the cake is sweet, but it’s part of some tradition you’ve picked up. No one says, “remember your cake”.

  117. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Remember the Alamo

    Everything about a wedding is a tradition – absolutely everything. But the tradition of the cake and feeding it to each other has meaning in that tradition.

    Funny, the ONLY thing my wife and I kept from our wedding is the cake top. (Her dress was rented)

  118. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Who is the guy on TEMA who sounds like he drank battery acid?

  119. Lori says:

    Articles like this show that his flock and listening audience are completely deceived. http://magicvalley.com/lifestyles/faith-and-values/religion/sign-to-announce-river-christian-fellowship/article_a90c07a5-7351-5d64-96f1-d760206b70fa.html

    I always thought the new name of the church was appropriate. The river represents the Snake river.

  120. Steve Wright says:

    OK, I’m back. (Glad to see Jim caught my line about the guns)

    Here was my point. I do not think for a second that Alex would support the use of the guns he sells
    a) being used by someone troubled to take their own life or the life of others
    b) being used by someone untrained to shoot themselves or another innocent
    c) kept by the careless who allow the gun to be taken by a small child or a thief who later uses it for evil
    d) later being sold (legally or otherwise) to a criminal who uses it for crime


    However, since all those things happen regularly in America, the issue for how anyone can sell guns for a living is because the positive for freedom and to keep this nation free greatly outweighs the negative possibilities which ultimately would not be Alex’s fault in the first place except in the slimmest of connections in that he sold a gun, legally, followed the background checks, waiting periods and other laws of the land.

    i.e. – can’t blame Alex for things he did not do, nor expect him to stop the good he provides because someone out there is doing bad.

    (So hang in there with me, Jim. Besides…we don’t have any water in CA) 🙂

  121. Steve Wright says:

    re: moral selectivity…

    My earlier comment about my declination of multiple hetero marriage requests met with crickets.

    Maybe the real selectivity is with some of you guys who have announced “getting out of the marriage business” NOW, when divorce, remarriage has been going on for decades and apparently it did take the gays to push you all out of the marriage business.

    No selective outrage here…and no cultural surrender either.

  122. London says:

    Wow. A teenager!
    Happy birthday Trey!

  123. Michael says:

    Thank you, London!

  124. Paige says:

    Whew….. wow….whew……

    Happy Birthday Trey….. Hope you boys can do something ‘light’ and fun….and be able to just have a ‘normal’ and enjoyable Dad & Son Birthday, not having to be The Phoenix Preacher for a few moments.

  125. Paige says:

    What I want to know is who made the wedding cake for Kestler and his new wife? 🙂

    I have to wonder how bakers decide who they will or won’t make cakes for? Same gender seems obvious…. or not….what about ‘christian’ adulterers?

    BTW, when bakers make tiered cakes for events, they deliver and set them up. That’s part of the deal and business, so when agreeing to make a cake for WHATEVER event, they will have to ‘attend’….regardless of the participants.

    I wonder whom made the cake for my ex and his adultress. They were both believers and hetero…..Who can judge? I’ll leave all that for God…. meanwhile, I will try to be kind and respectful to others and meanwhile pray…. That’s all I have.

  126. Linnea says:

    Michael–well said. It’s the same behavior we see from some doctors, cops, educators….anyone in authority. They cover for one another because they themselves have done it or they empathize with the offender. To quote someone who investigated the whole Heitzig deal…”follow the money and you have your answer”.

  127. Surfer51 says:

    Apparently there are no prophets within the Calvary Chapel system. If there were they would have spoken up a long time ago.

    But, from personal experience, CC does not like anyone who actually does have a prophetic calling over their lives.

    CC prophets are all politely told “If you don’t like how things are here, perhaps you should go and start your own church.”

    Michael, today, on your sons birthday, you have been tapped on the shoulder to rise up as an oracle of God and speak in the place of the prophet with the anointing and authority of a prophet.

    The entire tone and thrust of your message was indeed prophetic inspite of how you are viewing yourself.

    While there may be an inference that the men who pay to have their programs aired on the radio network are condoning the actions of the station owner, all of them certainly showing by their actions that it really doesn’t matter to them at all.

    Pastor Chuck Smith used to say, when it served to illustrate a point he was making, “I can’t hear what your saying because your life speaks louder than your words.”

    All of the men of God who choose to remain on that radio network can not get away from that above statement by Pastor Chuck Smith.

    The dollars rolling in mean more then integrity in this high profile situation apparently…

    You know pastor Bill Johnson said, “I would rather be anointed then famous and well known.

    Anointing or $$$?

    Michael is anointed today!

  128. Alex says:

    Steve, that is as bad a False Analogy as I’ve seen.

  129. Jim says:


    You’re playing some serious chess here with that gun line. The chances of Alex or myself seeing your detailed follow up are iffy.

    I specifically came back looking for your response, because your gun line was so off the wall.

  130. Alex says:

    …and you seem to be equating selling guns legally, licensed, FBI Background checked etc for a profit as a private business as somehow equivalent to you selling the Gospel for a profit and self-affiliating with a bad evangelical Sect that has a very public record of supporting Groups like TBN and CSN who openly tolerate Corruption, Abuse and Adultery from their leadership.

    I am not seeing how your bad analogy is equivalent or connects in any way.

    You are still a “Calvary Chapel” correct?

  131. Jim says:

    Well, never mind about the “iffy” part…. 🙂

  132. Jim says:


    Profit? You must sell a lot of used stock.

  133. Alex says:

    Jim, you know the gun industry well 🙂

    New gun margins suck. We make our margin on used guns that come out of pawn or are trade-ins or buys and we make a good margin in accessories.

    Ammo is an OK margin.

    I try to pick my battles with the new guns and order good deals and stuff I know will sell…plus I do stocking dealer orders and spread them between the 3 stores…you can get a little more margin on the new guns that way.

    It’s not as easy as people think.

  134. Jim says:

    My local new gen 4 tupperware is $500 for citizens, with most of their business Blue Label. Ammo and accessories seem to be the profit makers.

  135. Steve Wright says:

    Jim, there was nothing more certain in this world than my explanation being responded to by Alex eventually. And I was pretty confident you would return (though sorry you did not remark on my water joke which I thought was pretty good) 🙂

  136. Jim says:

    I thought my original water joke was better, as I knew you had no water 🙂

    I still play checkers to your chess. If I want to make a point and be understood, I would never go out on your limb.

  137. Steve Wright says:

    Jim…I gave a heads up that I was out….and while I know the comparison would not be seen by Alex, I think more than one reader probably got it. And it was a direct response to a post that would have been buried by the time I came back a few hours later…

    If I had the time, I would have written it all up in the moment…the new rules around this blog are getting so confusing….

  138. brian says:

    Happy Birthday Trey

  139. Michael says:

    Thank you, Brian!

  140. Michael says:

    I haven’t made any new rules…

  141. brian says:

    You know many of the folks I know that are gay and in long term monogamous relationships dont seem to really want to get married. But this “gay agenda” ™ rant that is the newest boogieman being used to drum up the troops and the revenue stream of many ministries. I mean back in the 80’s when the evangelical industry had the upper hand they used it with just as much force as the gay rights people are now. Just an observation.

    Now for the pastor, good for him, he made and is making bank. Good, may his tribe increase. I mean I have lived the quintessential celibate lifestyle sense being a Christian and never have I felt like such a piece of human God hating filth than when not being married comes up except with catholics, EO, Anglican Lutheran etc, but all those people are going right to hell just like me so they dont count, just like me. I have finally walk away from the sham called american evangelicalism. Good riddance and I am sure the feeling is mutual. I feel really awful and lonely to be honest, I cant even get that right.

  142. Babylon's Dread says:

    The moral rot of the Jesus People Movement is the core of this story.

    There is your book.

    Write that.

  143. Michael says:


    I am… and I’ll publish it myself if I have to.

  144. Michael says:

    I don’t think I’ll have to though…

  145. passin throgh says:

    Today is 150th anniversary of the Confederacy’s Surrender at Appomattox.

    Go state’s rights!!

  146. Surfer51 says:

    On this Trey day in:

    1964 – Capitol Records won the rights to distribute the Beatles’ recordings in the U.S. from VeeJay.

    1965 – The Rolling Stones made their first live appearance on British TV’s “Ready Steady Go!”

    It is a very good day indeed.

    Happy Birthday Trey!

  147. Xenia says:

    BD, in your opinion, was is the reason for this? (Your 142)

  148. Michael says:


    Thank you!
    He loves the Beatles…

  149. Em says:

    #142 yes, as Xenia asked, what is the reason? … there is probably a simple answer, but there must be a very complicated and convoluted one also … the Pentecostal movement, even while doing some good, very quickly drew in reprobate opportunists … some of whom have been written about in the past, which should make for some good research… so the Jesus People may have been inherited some of that mindset? dunno

    God keep

  150. Xenia says:

    I have an opinion on this, but I want to see what others think.

  151. Babylon's Dread says:


    The reason? If the gold is tarnished what will iron do? …
    The law of the king was about gold, guns and girls
    The leaders failed the test
    That is one thing.

    The revival was shallow rooted …
    Bad theology yield a bad crop…

    It is a terrific question Xenia
    Rebellion is a bad elixir
    I don’t know it all

    But I know this the heap of broken people
    Is pressing us into a dark time
    This generation does not hear us
    The times they are a changin’ …again

  152. Steve Wright says:

    Revival….funny the most church-populated, heavily Christian influenced nation in the world at the time (likely in history for that matter) was so in need of revival in the first place…

    Hope that merits at least a passing asterisk in a footnote before the condemnation begins in earnest, Dread.

  153. Alex says:

    “Jim, there was nothing more certain in this world than my explanation being responded to by Alex”

    Only to be exceeded by your CC water-toting.

  154. Steve Wright says:

    Only to be exceeded by your CC water-toting.
    You’ve gotten so used to parroting that the last 5 plus years you do it in threads where it isn’t even happening… 🙂

    A radio station I don’t even buy time on…with programs from all over the evangelical syndicated world….with a man not even affiliated anymore…..(never mind. I give up)

    The only guy in this community who (for the almost 7 years I have been here) has openly, regularly, and tirelessly supported a disqualified pastor around here is the same guy who is now about to set us straight on Calvary Chapel…grab the popcorn and get Ted Haggard online to shout the amens (and maybe sell a book).

    As to cakes, I have yet to hear a pastor say it is a sin to bake one for a gay couple. What I have heard is the repeated cry for persecuted brothers and sisters whose personal convictions in this area should be treated by Christians in the manner Paul spoke of in Romans and Corinthians (call them weaker brethren if you desire…God will make that call)….and should be treated by our laws and by Americans of any or no religious view with the respect this nation used to give such convictions and still does as long as your god is Allah or someone else besides Jesus.

    As to marriage…for the third time now, I note the absence of engagement to my pastoral history and convictions when it comes to hetero marriage requests…because it does not fit the meme offered….and of course, as I also said, because apparently the gays have driven a lot of the pastors here out of the marriage business….since we know that adultery and remarriage wasn’t the reason for a new, sudden shift of (ahem) conviction.

    Soldier on, one and all.

  155. Xenia says:

    Thanks for your answer, Dread. Your writing is always poetry and takes a few readings to parse but I always appreciate a good poem.

  156. Babylon's Dread says:


    First, I am an unashamed proponent of revival… but troubled by the fallout and the fact that the leaders of revival are so often co-opted by the world… it is happening in my own movement. Second, revival does not come because of need but because of hunger. Our Father give to those who ask… you know this. But America is indeed plenty dark and needy

    Finally it is our own sins that need minding most. So we confront ourselves. But I take note of the casualties of our latest revival and they are legion

  157. LOL – last week I had Babs reeling on his heels about the scathing reviews of his tribe through the New Apostolic Reformation – a well documented book, 2 radio interviews along with the common knowledge of their heavy nutter population, only to have him bob and weave his way around the ring disputing the undisputable – now to have Babs to play the same role on Steve.

  158. Babylon's Dread says:


    That is baloney

    I read your books and watched your interviews…

    That dude is lame and doesn’t know what he is talking about

  159. Babylon's Dread says:


    I am the guy who will call my own guys out on their crap.
    I am the guy who will admit there is a mess in my camp
    I am the guy who is unafraid to take on the critic and be the critic

    Your book and author were so pedestrian I was laughing at them
    He caricatures, generalizes, invents straw men and flat out lies.

  160. Babs, we all say that – “that critic doesn’t know what he’s talking about.”

    But when the CC guy says the same thing – well, he’s just toting water for his group.

    You saying you are the “inside” critic of your group is just a deflection to shut up the “outside” critic.

    Anyway – I just thought it funny that you took the swipe 🙂

  161. Dr. Geivet could be wrong, but I doubt he is lame or doesn’t know what he is talking about 🙂


  162. Michael says:

    I have respect for how BD has owned the issues in his movement.
    That’s about all I have to say here.

  163. Babs should own it – he is a force in the movement, like an Apostle in Training.

    Steve on the other hand is a nobody pastor in a scorned SoCal town (have any of you been to old Lake Elsinore?) Its like a town of Skid Rows

  164. My comments aren’t against Babs – just his comments

    Alex rails against independent non denomination denominations – yet that is exactly what his church is … but it is the exception or as he puts it “the very rare exception.”

    Babs says he is the critic of his movement, but don’t let anyone else be the critic without saying they are “lame and don’t know what they are talking about.”

  165. Michael says:

    I am the epitome of a nobody.
    I think I’ve made a difference.
    I don’t believe in nobodies.

  166. Josh The Baptist says:

    I invite you all back into the open arms of the Southern Baptist Convention.

  167. Michael says:

    I have been thinking of running some stuff on the absolute horse bleep I see on the “Elijah List”…so BD will have more opportunities to speak. 🙂

    I’ve offended everybody but the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox this week, so I might as well keep working…

  168. Josh The Baptist says:

    Oh yeah…the Elijah List. Ugh.
    I don’t hold Dread responsible for all that garbage 🙂

  169. Michael says:


    Do you get that in your email?
    It would be hysterically funny if they didn’t actually believe the crap they spout.

  170. Josh The Baptist says:

    I use to get it all often. I unsubscribed years ago. I went through a period of flirtation with that movement and it nearly destroyed me.

    Oddly, I don’t think most of the people spouting the stuff actually believe it. They just know what will sell.

  171. Em says:

    “Steve on the other hand is a nobody pastor in a scorned SoCal town (have any of you been to old Lake Elsinore?) Its like a town of Skid Rows”

    just kidding? might wanna take one that back, MLD

    Pastor Steve, wish your church was in my neck of the woods

  172. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    em, the point was Steve is a small time pastor with no voice in his movement. Babs on the other hand is a great draw at conferences all around our nation and a teacher in foreign lands.

    And old Lake Elsinore is one nasty area 😉

  173. Bob Sweat says:


    My wife and I just joined a Conservative Baptist Church.Since leaving the ministry, I have attended Calvary Chapel, Church of God (Anderson), Mennonite Brethren, and now Conservative Baptist. If it weren’t for my wife, I would have tried Lutheran. I’m not sold on Baptist eschatology, but the rest is okay.

  174. Bob Sweat says:

    “Elijah List”?

  175. Josh The Baptist says:

    Bob, is the church part of the SBC?

  176. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Elijah List – mainline guys in that field


  177. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    They have a section that lists their prophetic words
    Doug Addison: “Prophetic Word: Opportunity is Knocking”

    LOL – come on, didn’t that come out of a fortune cookie?

  178. Michael says:


    I’ve been thinking of doing a weekly column with the horse bleep “prophecies” these clowns publish, then checking for how accurate they’ve been.

    However, my taste for controversy has been more than sated this week.

    I may not write about anything but cats and bunnies for a month…

  179. Josh The Baptist says:

    Honestly, I don’t think you’ll get much pushback from that crowd. Surely they know their prophecies are garbage. Bickle has often spoken of the sliding scale of prophetic accuracy. He used to say the best (Like Bob Jones) were only accurate like 60-70 percent of the time. Some of the less mature prophets were more like 30% accurate.

    They just make it up as they go. And if Bob Jones was 70% accurate on his junk, I’m Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

  180. Bob Sweat says:


    No, its a Conservative Baptist Church. I think its CBC.

  181. Josh The Baptist says:

    Hmm. Just read the wiki on them. Interesting.

  182. Bob Sweat says:

    The pastor is a graduate of Masters College, which almost scared me away; however, I have really enjoyed getting to know him.

  183. Josh The Baptist says:

    I’m assuming the eschatology you speak of is pre-trib?

  184. Babylon's Dread says:

    The one thing you can say is this…

    Way more of my people make complete fools of themselves than any of MLD’s but frankly the guys in my crowd remind me more of Luther than the Lutherans do.

    Bring in the clowns.

    As for the Elijah list… I NEVER read it even when my favorite people send it to me.

    It sends Elijah to the ravens for rescue.

    But seriously I listened carefully and read much of MLD’s champions against our movement and it is so pathetic the mistakes the critics fall into.

    Pathetic but then it is really about their market isn’t it.

    I do appreciate the promotion that MLD is giving me.

    Sola Dread

  185. Bob Sweat says:

    Yes, I rode that horse for 30+ years hook, line, and sinker. MLD and Dread have influenced me quite a bit. I’ve read some books that they recommended and find myself more comfortable in that camp. Bottom line, eschatology is not a hill that I would fight on. Been there, done that. There are more important issues to be dogmatic about.

  186. Josh The Baptist says:

    Agreed Bob. I’m totally non-dogmatic when it comes to Eschatology.

  187. Michael says:


    In what way do your people remind you of Luther?
    You need some folks that know Calvin… 🙂

  188. Josh The Baptist says:

    My favorites were always the long hair guy who sings his prophecies and the lady who violently shakes her head.

  189. Xenia says:

    We all say that our religion’s critics “get it all wrong” and for the most part, they do get most of it wrong. I would pay attention to what an actual adherent to a group says about themselves long before I would listen to opinions of outside critics.

    Two examples:

    I followed one of Michael’s links to a site that was offering “seminary level courses.” I listened to 3 or 4 of the audios on church history. The lecture on Eastern Christianity was beyond ridiculous. He talked for over an hour and I don’t think he got more than one or two facts straight. His students left that lecture believing the most bizarre things about Orthodoxy Christianity.

    When I taught at the Calvary Chapel high school a few years back, one member of the faculty took it upon himself to bring me back into the evangelical fold. Many mornings he would present me with “The Orthodox believe this [ridiculous] thing; explain THAT!” He got his info from Hank Hanegraaf’s web site. One morning he told me that from his reading he ascertained that the Orthodox were practically atheists, among other whack-a-doodle stuff. It was ok, it gave me a chance to have serious conversations with him about what we really believed. Hank’s web site totally misrepresented Orthodoxy. (I haven’t looked at it lately so who knows what it says now.)

    So believe the adherent before the you believe the outside critic.

  190. London says:

    After reading MLD’s description, I think I need to ask BD for his autograph next time I see him.

  191. Michael says:


    Which school?

  192. Xenia says:

    Biblical Training w/ Dr. Gerald Bray.

  193. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    The only thing that could remind you of Luther is if your people drink too much. 😉

  194. Michael says:


    I will listen to that again and note your objection in the article.

  195. Xenia says:

    Michael, the main problem with that lecture is that he chose the heretic Origen as the exemplar for Eastern Christianity. Origen believed a lot of erroneous things; that’s why he’s not called “Saint” Origen. Origen also believed some harmless things that don’t have much of anything to do with Orthodoxy, but Dr. Bray chose to dwell on these oddities.

  196. Josh The Baptist says:

    Stacy Campbell. Did some googlin. That’s the prophetess who shakes her head wildly when the Lord come upon her. You should really check it out on youtube if you’ve never seen it.

  197. Michael says:


    If you get the time check out Dr. Calhoun’s lecture from Covenant for us.
    I want to know if he is closer to the mark.

  198. Xenia says:

    I believe I have heard Dr. Calhoun and if he is who I am thinking of, yes, he did a very good job. I’ll take a look.

  199. Xenia says:

    I found the page of Dr. Calhoun’s lectures and they look familiar…. Worth listening to again, even if I’ve heard them before (which I think I have.) After Pascha (Easter) I’ll have more time to listen. I got a Fitbit Zip for my birthday and I am walking all over the place trying to get in my daily 10,000+ steps (five miles) and I need something to listen to. This looks perfect.

    It’s Good Friday. I really should get off the computer…..

  200. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    On the Elijah List page there is a guy named David Hogan who has a claim to have raised 28 people from the dead.

    Now I won’t dispute the claim – I think he had assistance from the devil.

    But here is my question – if these dead people were really dead wouldn’t they have been in the presence of Jesus? Wouldn’t that make the work of David Hogan an evil work?

  201. Michael says:

    If it were true it would either mean he ripped them from the arms of Christ or the pit of hell.
    Fortunately, it’s not true.
    Pretty bold lie, though.

  202. Josh The Baptist says:

    I think David Hogan being a friend of Dread.

    I, however, will call bull on the raised from the dead claims. Did not happen. Pure lie.

  203. Papias says:

    Xenia –

    Do you know of any Church history lectures from an Orthodox standpoint?

  204. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I am a big believer that these things really do happen – but they are the work of the devil to draw people in. All of it, gold dust, fortune cookie prophecies, healings on a stage – all devil generated.

    See, Satan has no power to snatch anyone and take them to hell with him – they must come voluntarily, and this is how he does it … he even tried it with Jesus in the wilderness.

  205. Xenia says:

    Hi Papias,

    I found this link:


    I’ve never listened to them, though, so can’t vouch for It. It’s from St. Herman of Alaska Orthodox Seminary in Kodiak, Alaska. I just discovered this page so maybe I will give it a listen. So many good podcasts; only 2 ears.

    Actually, a very good podcast is The History of the Papacy which you can find on iTunes. It’s actually a history of Christianity, using the Papacy as a timeline. It’s not at all an advertisement for Roman Catholicism and “Steve” has plenty to say about Eastern Christianity. He has a very odd speaking style which will turn many off but it becomes endearing after a few episodes. He also has some liberal ideas which can be easily overlooked. It’s currently my favorite podcast. (Well, next to Calvin’s Corner, of course.)

    He’s only up to the Council of Nicea, I think.

  206. Papias says:

    Xenia – Thanks.

    ” A series of audio lectures given by Dr. Jeffrey Macdonald….and received his Ph.D. in Early Christian Studies in 1995 with the completion of his dissertation on the Christological writings of the sixth century emperor-theologian Justinian.”

    That might be an interesting dissertation to read. 🙂

  207. Xenia says:

    I listened to the first ten minutes of his first lecture. He doesn’t sound crazy or anything. 🙂

  208. Josh The Baptist says:

    “I am a big believer that these things really do happen – but they are the work of the devil to draw people in. All of it, gold dust, fortune cookie prophecies, healings on a stage – all devil generated.”

    Nope. It is all showmanship. All fake and trickery. Form the Devil for sure, but they are not supernatural acts occurring.

  209. Babylon's Dread says:

    Luther was

    Eccentric in his thinking… for the time
    Fearlessly provocative
    Now he had some qualities
    Wait those are the ones I like…

    Martin Dread

  210. Babs – and all of those were in place when he said;

    “I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen.”

    Luther stood before councils, Emperors and the Pope’s henchmen defending the faith. He never once resorted to –

  211. Babylon's Dread says:


    I am guessing you have no idea what Luther was like when the Spirit of God fell upon him. Thank you for sharing this. I have only met Stacy one time. We all heard about Stacey’s son and we prayed for him. This made me laugh for joy because I got to see a bunch of folks that I love.

    I wonder if she can drink and cuss like Luther and MLD and myself?

  212. “I am guessing you have no idea what Luther was like when the Spirit of God fell upon him.”

    That was my point – when the spirit of the lord fell on Luther, he boldly stood up and spoke God’s word to kings and popes,
    He wasn’t an entertainer like the wiggling prophetess

    :LOL, she looks like pretty tough lady – I’ll bet she could handle herself on a bar stool 🙂 .

  213. Alex says:

    She’s going to get brain damage doing that.

    Is it Turrets or is it the Holy Spirit?

    …I’m going with Turrets 🙂

  214. Ixtlan says:

    Yep. That looks painful. Arnott seems rather subdued through most of it.

    Luther proclaimed with boldness, not like a reed shaken in the wind.

  215. Alex says:

    Josh said, “Nope. It is all showmanship. All fake and trickery. Form the Devil for sure, but they are not supernatural acts occurring.”

    Agreed, it’s not “the devil!”…it’s purely theatrics and emotionalism.

    It is no more “demonic” or “supernatural” than the yogis doing fake levitations with illusion tricks or the occultists playing ouija boards and making it move with subtle movements or a supposed psychic doing a phony psychic reading etc.

    Some of the Charismatics are sincere and mean well…I would put Dreadly in this category…I don’t think he’s a con and I think he really believes that “God” makes people do goofy s**t, but I don’t think it is “God” at all…just people really wishing it was “God”…and unfortunately sometimes charlatans are able to take advantage of folks and play on their sincere desires to see true supernatural manifestations and want so hard to see them that they’ll believe anything.

  216. Babylon's Dread says:

    Nobody in the movement that I know of thinks everything they see is from God.

    They were all trained in evangelical churches where everyone faked it all the time


    Human nature takes over… there are tons of things that I would say “Meh, that’s just emotion” or even conformity, but do not try to tell me that Lutherans do not fake their way through stuff they just do it in more culturally acceptable forms.

    I am entertained Alex, I am not sure there is much left in your category for real at all.

  217. Babs, if not an Apostle in Training are you at least a Prophet in Training> I hear that Patricia King has a couple of Prophetesses in Training and they already know how to call out the rest of us out as having a “spirit of religion.” (as she is famous for)

    Lutherans have nothing to fake – how do you fake being bored during a slow organ led song? now we may sleep through it. 🙂

  218. “Nobody in the movement that I know of thinks everything they see is from God”

    But I’ll bet everyone who thinks they are manifesting something, thinks its from God.

    Its easy for them to look at the other guy and say “well he was caught up in the emotion.” But do they ever say “Wow, forget what you just saw or heard from me – it wasn’t God, I was just caught up in the emotion. 🙂

  219. Alex says:

    Dread, I have seen what I think is God’s spirit moving in a legit manner with regards to you and your sect…I’ve seen it in your example many times of “the good” that you often example with people you interact with.

  220. Alex says:

    Dreadly, I’ve seen you be very patient and kind with folks, very loving…I’ve seen you be a peace-maker…I’ve seen you have sincere joy and I’ve seen you exercise self-control.

    a.k.a. “the fruits of the Spirit”

    …not the shaking around stuff.

  221. Alex says:

    I’ve seen God’s spirit even move among Groups you wouldn’t expect.

    Where does love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness and self-control come from?

    The “devil” and/or the flesh? Nope…

  222. Babylon's Dread says:


    Thou are never without an answer … must be God


    Thank you…

  223. Alex says:

    Thank you Dread. You’re a good man, I mean that. It gives me hope and strengthens my faith when I see “the good” expressed through leaders in Christianity…guys like you and Michael and others.

  224. Alex says:

    I am fortunate to have some good friends. I have agnostic friends, some Jewish friends and Mormon friends etc who are also good folks. They demonstrate the good in humanity…and I do not think that their love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness and self-control comes from the flesh/human nature or the “devil”.

  225. Linda Pappas says:

    It appears to me this woman may in fact have some type of undiagnosed neurological disorder, such as a benign tremor disorder. It can be spurred on by emotions/stress, alcohol/drug use, type of diabetes, or lack of sleep, or combination.

  226. Maria says:

    Speaking of To every man an answer– where is Steve Matheson- did he bite the adultery bug also?? He is no longer listed as pastor of Bermuda Dunes Church and his teachings are gone from their web site– ???? His wife Charity has an Instagram account with no Steve in sight–

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