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23 Responses

  1. Babylon's Dread says:

    According to the best selling books of the decade Babylon is thriving.

  2. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael, you posted the wrong Julie Roys posting. I probably should have sent this to you earlier.

    She is not a Trump supporter and I know she is one of your favorites. In this article she does a royal beat down on Galli and CT.

  3. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Since most won’t read the article or won’t read to the end – the last two paragraphs say it all.

    “So I get it. Mark Galli and CT made a brilliant move, which has enlarged their progressive base and will allow the magazine to go precisely where it’s been straining to go the past decade. And Galli’s op-ed will likely launch him beautifully into a “retirement” replete with speaking invitations and opportunities to freelance for secular publications.

    But let’s not pretend that this was all about righteous indignation. Galli and CT clearly only care about “justice and righteousness” and preserving the witness of evangelicalism when it suits them. And it’s not just Trump who’s “dumbed down the idea of morality.” Galli and CT have been doing that for years. And they’re the last people who should act as though they have a moral platform from which to pass judgment.”

  4. Duane Arnold says:

    The article seems to be more about her relationship with CT, rather than the content of the editorial…

  5. Michael says:


    I thought I did post it…
    She’s actually not one of my favorites, but she is speaking for a number of my comrades who thought it the height of hypocrisy that Galli called out Trump,but not prominent associates in the church that were every bit as corrupt.
    She has a point.

  6. Michael says:

    I will say that under prior editors CT was very helpful.
    I worked with them on stories about Skip Heitzig and Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith.
    They took a hell of a beating on one we did on the CC movement…

  7. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    or it is about selective moral outrage, self preservation and personal gain.

  8. Michael says:

    The backstory on Roys and CT is that when James MacDonald sued her CT ran a piece by MacDonald on why it was biblical to sue her.
    MacDonald also bought Ed Stetzer a car…which pretty much obliterates any sense of objectivity.
    I would be angry too if I was her…

  9. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Basic corruption and cover-up to protect their advertising base.
    A Trump editorial seemed safe to them and the CEO confirmed that it worked claiming the gained 3 new subscribers for each cancellation.
    Good article.

  10. Michael says:


    I’m not buying the CT line that they cleaned up on subscriptions.
    I think they will be in trouble by this time next year.

  11. Michael says:

    On a more positive note, Kate Bowler was the best thing that happened in 2019…

  12. Babylon's Dread says:


    So Julie might have had a conflict of interest in that beat down? Oh wow! “Outrage” might not need a modifier.

    Gong Dread

  13. Babylon's Dread says:

    It would be good if people wake up to the fact that “white” is not a necessary qualifier to evangelical. Therefore any report of tribal voting among evangelicals tends to skew it selectively in order to cast an aspersion and exclude the very large percentage of evangelicals that are not white. Worse still for those casting shade, they may be inadvertently shaming minorities who in large numbers are also evangelical. Then again, they are likely ignoring the fact that evangelical voting patterns are as diverse as evangelicals.

    One thing is sure, the mob is mobilized to take down the evil white man.

    Privileged Dread

  14. pstrmike says:

    It is strange to me that I find myself defending Bethel in a few different circles. Their theology is not what I believe in regards to the advancement of the kingdom. There was a time when I would be first in line to bash Pentecostalism, but after spending some time with them, my perspective has changed, even if my doctrine hasn’t.

    I like Kate Bowler and have appreciated her transparency and courage. She also has some broad exposure to Pentecostalism, so I’ll give credit in knowing what she writes about.

    However, when she writes “we are not divine. When we confuse hope for power, we transform tragedy into failure,” I feel she misses something. I haven’t seen any one from Bethel claiming such divine privilege. I wonder here if the line between our hope and the power of God to move in our midst becomes so thin, that they may be difficult to differentiate. Granted, we have become “partakers of the divine nature,” which is a view that some in Orthodox circles emphasize. But that is really another discussion for another time.

    I would not consider this tragedy a failure. One of the things that struck me at my time at a Bethel conference is that these people do not care what others think about their engagement with the super-natural. That is boldness. Johnson (many of you will disagree) provided a reasonable explanation for seeking resurrection and the decision to move toward a memorial. While I would not agree with his doctrine, they stepped out in faith, believing what the Bible describes, and what they feel it requires of them. In the spirit of Advent, they waited. They will no doubt wait again, just as those who observe Advent have done for many years.

    I think the one take away that Bethel has given me is to not concern ourselves too much with what others think, or God forbid, be subjected to some type of lame excuse that others offer up to not enter the Kingdom themselves. Don’t blame us for your unbelief. How many of the saints, particularly the mystics, were considered foolish and bad examples?

    It is my personal belief that we are not designed to handle such power., and yet at times, it has been manifested. We are all incredibly flawed people who, as Michael says, “are just trying to get home before dark.” I’m amazed that God would even bother with us. Let’s continue to wait for our kingdom to come, the promise is sure.

  15. Michael says:


    I can’t buy it.
    Let’s be blunt.
    Documented healings are scarce and the evidence is mainly anecdotal.
    There has not been one documented resurrection since Christ.
    Not one.
    Why should I believe that my kid, my loved one, hell… my cat, be the one God actually raises?
    I think what people are actually defending here is the Bible itself…or their interpretation thereof.
    Jesus did it and because Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever we can believe for any miracle we need.
    The evidence over 2000 years shows that to be a losing proposition.
    I think we confuse the born again hope in us of the kingdom to come with the kingdom as it is now…and though I think myself a damn fool often, I will hope as well.

  16. Duane Arnold says:


    I’ve not said much of anything about the Bethel situation and I probably shouldn’t now. It seems to me, from a distance and not knowing the people, that this is perhaps misdirected grief. I’ve left a hospital room to tell a family member that their loved one has died and heard them say, “No”, even as they dissolved into tears and tried to hit me, because I was the one who told them. This, however, was in relative privacy, in a hospital waiting room. Nothing had to be expressed to meet others expectations. It was simply grief.

    Thinking of the mother of this child at Bethel, I was reminded of a passage in C.S. Lewis’, “A Grief Observed”:

    “If a mother is mourning not for what she has lost but for what her dead child has lost, it is a comfort to believe that the child has not lost the end for which it was created. And it is a comfort to believe that she herself, in losing her chief or only natural happiness, has not lost a greater thing, that she may still hope to “glorify God and enjoy Him forever.” A comfort to the God-aimed, eternal spirit within her. But not to her motherhood. The specifically maternal happiness must be written off. Never, in any place or time, will she have her son on her knees, or bathe him, or tell him a story, or plan for his future, or see her grandchild.”

    Grief, and the reaction to grief can take many forms. For myself and my theological perspective, what took place at Bethel was an inappropriate form, both in its very public nature and, in my opinion, a flawed theology. I think, however, my question is more about the grief of the parents and the pastoral care they were, or were not, given in what must have been a painful and confusing time…

  17. Michael says:

    Well said, Duane.

    There is much in this story that troubles me, but what troubles me the most is that a child died and the child remains dead .
    I would have loved it if God had made me look like an unbelieving ass.
    I think those things are supposed to trouble me…

  18. pstrmike says:

    well then. If I have a terminal disease, an one day I probably will, I probably drive to Bethel to see if God might want to heal me. We can talk about it at In-n-Out on my way home.

    This makes more sense to me than praying to Mary……..

    We all want to be inclusive……. until we don’t .

    Merry Christmas.

  19. Michael says:


    I haven’t excluded them from anything but my theology.
    My doctors haven’t told me I’m terminal,but they have indicated that things are pretty dire.
    I’m not going to Bethel.
    I’m in a lot of peoples prayers and God is no longer bound by location.
    Should God decide to heal me I have the medical records at my fingertips to prove He did.
    I would publish them in a heartbeat.
    For the sake of a kid and some stray cats, I hope He does…

  20. Michael says:

    I think we’re also talking about one of the paradoxes of Scripture.
    The Bible speaks of hope, but hope deferred makes the heart sick.
    Perhaps I’ve been too heartsick for too long to address these things objectively…but the historical record is pretty loud…

  21. victorious says:

    In regards to the 200 person push back to CT.
    The institution always proclaims that the vibrancy of Christianity is found in dependence upon Jesus grounded in the Word and fueled by the Spirit.

    However, in practice this letter reveals that they really believe believe that Kingdom success is found in the evangelical enterprise of institution counseling or negotiating with the empire.

    This is just the outworking of a discipleship untested by the trials and tribulations of persecution.

    Where in the world did Jesus or the Apostles negotiate with the leaders of Babylon?

    Trumps counterpart in the Bible is not Cyrus but more like the emissaries of Babylon encountered by Paul. Thank God we have revelation from God in the book of Acts that makes it clear how he engaged these persons of power.

    While patiently worked his way up the ladder to
    interact face to face with Caesar; Paul the Apostle reasoned with Felix and Drusilla face to face while a prisoner about faith in Christ with his three point sermon focused upon righteousness, self-control and the coming judgment while Felix was hoping to wear down Paul and extract a bribe from him.

    Before Festus and Agrippa Paul proclaimed his testimony of encountering the resurrected Jesus with the outcome being his Kingdom commission to take the Gospel to all nations without bypassing the Jersualemites as those who were in need of Gospel transformation.

    My response to these courtesans of power abd those who parrot their sermons.

    Read and heed the letter to the Laodiceans spoken by Jesus and scribed by John the Apostle in Revelation 3.

  22. Em says:

    Good words, victorious, God help me to never see someone as too unimportant to share with them the importance of The Christ

    An evangelical protestant Merry Christmas to all – picking up my grandkids at the Amtrak depot tonight and, thanks to my “y’all come” daughter looking forward to a housefull of good neighbors tomorrow, but i shouldn’t have told her that id buy the rib roast… I’d blush to say what that cost me… pray i roast it successfully

  23. Babylon's Dread says:


    Thank you, over and over when I hear people characterize what Bethel is saying they caricature it. I find the inner core of leaders to be rather careful in their language. AND yes, they are rather impervious to the criticism.

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