Linkathon!

Corby says:

Regarding Millenials and speaking in tongues, I think it’s an interesting question, but the results aren’t categorical because it isn’t taking time into account. If you were to ask the people who are GenX (such was myself) when they were the age Millenials are now, I think you would see the same kinds of numbers. So it isn’t based on a particular generation, but a particular phase of life. Why do people perhaps stop thinking it’s important? There are a whole slew if reasons, but I would like to cite maturity.

It’s another expression of what I refer to as “theological angst.” It’s been my observation that when a person hits young adulthood and they are more free because maybe they have moved, own transportation, whatever has allowed them to get out from under the theological tradition of their home, they discover new areas of theology and/or expression than they have been allowed to experience, or were perhaps even taught against.

For example, there were droves of CC people who left CC for the young, restless, and reformed, because they had never heard it before, at least for themselves. It was new and exciting for them, and they changed camps. I also saw the opposite happen. People raised absent any kind of dispensationalist view changing camps because it met a need. I think the same is true for charismatic practices and views. It’s always very popular with young people. Theological angst.

I think there are also stats that say that the time in a person’s life when they are both most likely to come to Jesus, or leave Jesus, is in young adulthood/college years. It’s a very transformative and malleable time.

bob1 says:

Eric Metaxas. Good grief! Where to start with such cluelessness?

I guess we’re back to the “White Jesus” painting of the 1950s.

Looks to me like perhaps he’s trying to shoehorn in his white “Christian” nationalist beliefs here.

Problem is, facts are indeed stubborn things…

Owen says:

Interesting article, “Does God work all things together for our good?”. While I have often thought that passage probably doesn’t mean what many like to think it does, I can’t quite see how the author of the article came to the conclusions he did.
Romans 8:18-19, I’m not seeing how he makes the leap that these verses do not refer to Christ’s return and heaven to come. Especially when I read verse 25, “but if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.”
I agree that we are Christ’s hands and feet in the world, as the author said. He makes good points there. I’m just not coming to the same conclusion he does with 18-20.
I am, however, willing to be educated.

Nathan Priddis says:

This is totally fascinating to me.
-Trump, Demon Sex and Deliverance.
-Shortly followed by Michael Heiser/ Ben Worthington.
Two sides of the same coin. I think Heiser’s theology is a real up and coming thing.

Maybe somebody can help me out with Worthington. He was from Liberty, and became a Trump/ Republican surrogate in 2016? He was a figure in Republican echelons in some fashion? Is this him?

WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

I’ve got Heiser’s book on Kindle and he’s readable, although there’s yellow flags for me that he so readily endorsed Mark Driscoll’s Win Your War post plagiarism scandal on the one hand and that Mark so openly leans on Heiser’s The Unseen Realm while clearly having not bothered to read Heiser’s work on Demons. Heiser’s looking to be the “it” writer on the unseen realm and yet now that I’ve started into his work he seems pretty clearly indebted to John Walton, Loren Stuckenbruck, Graham Twelftree and other academics in the field of diabology and exorcism from 2nd Temple Judaism and Christianity whose works will never get read by low church American Protestants by and large. Yeah, there’s a lot we Protestants have taken whole cloth from Catholic traditions regarding texts in Isaiah and Ezekiel that were not originally about Satan and Jeffrey Burton Russell did a masterful job of explaining how and why those traditions about Lucifer and the Prince of Tyre were interpreted the ways they have been with respect to Satan since.

So Heiser might be useful reading for someone who’s such a fundamentalist biblicist they never wondered why Jude was referencing Enochic oracles but this whole realm of research was the direction I wanted to go into if I could have gone to seminary and so, so far, Heiser’s coming across as writing stuff I’ve been familiar with for a while. Doesn’t mean I won’t read him, he’s a very readable stylist and the fact that I recognize so many of the scholars he references isn’t exactly a bad thing.

I do wonder (since I’m early into Heiser’s books) if he’ll address any Walter Wink’s approaches to the principalities and powers. We’re well past the point where Bultmann’s considered “the” norm for Ephesians 6. I’ve been reading some African theologians and biblical scholars (Acolatse, Darko, and Moses) and so far I’m finding their criticisms of the Western approaches to Ephesians 6 post-Bultmann and even post-Wink to be pretty engaging. I’m particularly sympathetic to Moses’ thesis that Pauline instruction on what Christian spiritual practices and disciplines to positively cultivate is clearer than Pauline instruction on powers and that Western academic literature might benefit from remembering that.

So if folks want to compare notes on Heiser I’ll be in a better position to compare notes on that later this year. For those who visit WtH there’s a two-dozen book reading list of what I’ve been tackling this year on diabology, exorcism and spiritual warfare spanning academic treatments across Reformed, Methodist and Jewish scholarship and more pop-level stuff.

Nathan, I am a bit cautious about spiritual warfare fads, most especially after my time at Mars Hill, because spiritual warfare talk tends to be popular with professing Christians who seem to have literally no other way of grappling with the reality of relational conflicts. That and there is a nasty tendency among evangelicals in the US across the spectrum to collapse Christian traditions on spiritual warfare into American civil religion.

WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

Yeah, and I had conversations years ago online with Steve Hays of Triablogue about Jude’s use of Enochic oracles and how we can’t be that certain that citation actually meant approval. We can’t be sure that Jude’s invocation wasn’t part of a strategy to battle false teaching that may have been leveraging Enochic materials so … yeah … that’s a super-too-short version of why I’ve got yellow flags about 2nd Temple stuff being used so categorically to interpret NT texts.

I hoe to come back and share some thoughts here or to write more extensively on the topic at my blog or a mixture of both. I do get a sense Heiser’s worth reading but I worry he’s going out on a somewhat speculative limb. Stuckenbruck has highlighted what a rat’s nest of X-Men level continuity trees there are about when/how/why the angels fell in Enochic strands of literature that I’ll want Heiser to at some point address. His fans seem to convey a rather stripped down three rebellions thing without getting into that stuff.

Jerod says:

Trump’s doctor may have picked up some remarkably odd beliefs, but is there anyone here who would question an outspoken Hindu, Muslim, Jewish or Buddhist doctor if they were good at their jobs?

Anyone else not associated with “Orange Man Bad” would be given the benefit of the doubt about their opinion on hydroxychloroquine.

CM says:

Jerod,

In sermons posted on YouTube and articles on her website, Immanuel claims that medical issues like endometriosis, cysts, infertility, and impotence are caused by sex with “spirit husbands” and “spirit wives”—a phenomenon Immanuel describes essentially as witches and demons having sex with people in a dreamworld. If any doctor claimed this regardless of their specific religious background, they would be rightly derided as a quack. I guess physical, structural issues that are visible on an MRI don’t count in her mind. The problem is that statements like that indicate that said person is probably NOT good at their job. Especially since more information has come out about her.

Second, there has not been a randomized, control trial with hydroxychloroquine that shows a statistically significant improvement in COVID patients. The Henry Ford health care study included the use of steroids, so there is no way to determine if the improvement was from hydroxychloroquine or the steroids. Given that other trials show there is an improvement from steroids, I would say that hydroxychloroquine was NOT the reason.

JoelG says:

“Can someone point out where in the Bible it says that if God doesn’t partner with us his kingdom doesn’t come to the world”

“Now the whole offer which Christianity makes is this: that we can, if we let God have His way, come to share in the life of Christ. If we do, we shall then be sharing a life which was begotten, not made, which always existed and always will exist. Christ is the Son of God. If we share in this kind of life we also shall be sons of God. We shall love the Father as He does and the Holy Ghost will arise in us. He came to this world and became a man in order to spread to other men the kind of life He has — by what I call “good infection.” Every Christian is to become a little Christ. The whole purpose of becoming a Christian is simply nothing else.“

– C.S. Lewis

I’m not sure how His kingdom comes into the world without our partnership.

Jerod says:

CM – if those beliefs resulted in maltreatment of patients then she should be fired. But they haven’t. The same is to be said for many Catholic and Protestant doctors who, regardless of training, still believe that some developmental delays and syndromes are the result of demonic activity in the family. The only way this affects their practice is that they fast and pray. They treat their patients with all the care and concern according to the best science and with transparency. The same is to be said for many Hindu doctors who believe in Kali, or Muslims who believe in the doctrine of In sha Allah. They don’t regard life as less meaningful or disregard natural science because they think God willed this or that person to succumb to sickness.

Bob1 – she is on record with her colleagues claiming she has treated patients with hydroxychloroquine and has zero deaths. So… who’s the quack? The one who’s on record or the ones who won’t pull their collective head out to look at the record?

JoelG – “from the Bible”. Do you have anything from scripture?
Does God’s sovereignty end at our apathy? Does the appointed time of the end delay because the American church is lazy? I don’t think it does. I think we assume too much of ourselves.

bob1 says:

She is on record with her colleagues claiming she has treated patients with hydroxychloroquine and has zero deaths. So… who’s the quack?

Uh, Jerod — she is. Good grief. And if you believe her, well, I feel sorry for you. It also really makes me angry to think of how many have died because of this quack cure. I suppose in the end, you’ll believe what you want and it’s no skin off my nose. But right now in this country, believing BS can literally kill you. Or hubris. Look at Herman Cain — may he RIP.

Jerod says:

Well, Bob1, my comment is moderated because it has some fantastic links for you. In the meantime, I hope your doctor has an open mind. If he/she suggests it I hope you’ll hear him/her out🤔

Jerod says:

Yes, pragmatism be damned

directambiguity says:

Medical advice from an entertainer. Thanks, Michael.

directambiguity says:

And an entertainer.

CM says:

Jared,

Point #1: Correlation does not prove causation (statistics 101)

Point #2: She is claiming that they got better due to hydroxycholoroquine (where are all the medical records (redacted for HIPPA as needed?).

Point #3. Because of Point #1, there is no way to know if was the treatment or other things. This is why a randomized clinical trial experiment is required (with a sufficiently large sample size).

This is Statistics and Analysis of Variance (ANOVA) and Design of Experiments 101. If you had _EVER_ taken a course in statistics in college you would know this.

bob1 says:

10:06

CM,

Exactly.

And then reactionary conservative Xns can whine and moan and play the “we’re persecuted” card.

Got it.

Jerod says:

Hydroxychloroquine –

Michael –

noticed you didn’t post my comment with the 3 links to all the journal articles from WHO et al. There seems to be a lot of that sort of thing happening a lot of places. It’s your site, I respect that.

I guess people can do their own research.

Great commission –
That’s not exactly right. That’s putting words in Gods mouth. Can’t respect that.

To whom has authority been given? Not us.

Matthew28: 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.(A) 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said,

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Jesus commissioned them to preach the gospel, baptise, and hold fast to his doctrine. That’s it.

Be safe people. God bless

JoelG says:

“That’s it”

Jared,

Don’t forget Sermon in the Mount… the Kingdom rules by which we partner with God through obedience. Isn’t this what Jesus is referring to when He says “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.“?

JoelG says:

I see what you are saying. I agree it is His work in us. Thank you, Jerod.

bob1 says:

And what about the whole idea of God’s providential care? That he does work through/utilize us for His purposes? As just one example: the Reformation doctrine of vocation — God doesn’t supply our food supernaturally — He works through/utilizes other people to get it to us.

Jerod says:

Joel – You’re welcome, but it’s not a point of division or ire. Just wanted to take the time to say hi in my own special way. Sorry if I came off as know it all, I think I’ve proven I don’t.

Thanks Michael, I see your point. Don’t agree yet.

Thank you as well, Bob. It’s always a blessing.