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105 Responses

  1. Dread says:

    The social justice movement has no forgiveness. Joshua Mitchell wrote about this in First Things what … two, no three years ago. Called it a ‘godless great awakening,’ This is just CRT. It’s about power not love.

  2. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    ever since that Mike Cosper interview with Allender went up in the CT podcast series Pastor Mark’s been tweeting about fear.

    Were I to summarize things in terms he might have used circa 2002, the bro sure is sharing a lot of bromides about fear lately.

  3. Dread says:

    It would be good for all of us if MD gets harpooned and filleted then WTH could focus those amazing capacities exclusively on constructive theological enterprise.

  4. Michael says:

    “Can love take sides” is by Wendell Berry…I did the rest of this crap just to have a place to feature him…

  5. BrianD says:

    What WTH does now is constructive, IMO.

    Can someone explain the Matt Chandler thing to me? Are they hiding something worse than let on or did they overreact?

  6. Dread says:


    Lately you’ve been in one shot Linkathon mode — I’ll take a look.

    You know you can replace Linkathon with Lookathon and give us what you really care about.

  7. Dread says:

    Chandler’s offense is being part of a quasi legalistic world. I figure he had an online attraction or flirt — he came to himself and they had to punish him

    It’s nonsense and his wife probably could tell them what to think.

  8. Michael says:


    Christians used to write about theology and the things of God.
    Now, it’s all about some political slant and I think they’re all full of s…and not worth reading.

    I don’t see much “biblical Christianity” anywhere…just two political asses braying over the prayers of the people.

  9. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    Dread, I’ve been incubating Perichoresis in Musical Time and Space all year. That’ll give me a chance to quote from John of Damascus, Thomas Torrance, Brunner and a few others. But I didn’t anticipate Cosper would do the CT series. I’d rather Mark repented than gets harpooned and filleted. I wrote Ragtime and Sonata Forms back in April 2020 in one week. It’s just that the way blogs work seems to be that nobody except maybe Ethan Hein (a music theorist) seems to read the musicological posts.

    The Allender episode is one of the episodes I recommend, despite being ambivalent about the CT series as a whole.

    Given Mark’s expansive approach to demonology and spiritual warfare as indicative of trends in Anglo-American self-help manuals I’m unfortunately not done writing about him on those topics but I’m having too much fun reading academic books by pastors and theologians from Ghana at the moment to get to those posts, ditto some amazing stuff by Ephraim Radner on problems in Moltmannian and post-Moltmannian pneumatology.

  10. BrianD says:

    It can get tiresome to look for links, to be sure, especially when you realize much of it is the same regurgitated mess over and over and over and over…ad nauseam.

    The social justice link is probably worth one’s while, though. It really needs to be said for the record this particular secular religion has no room for forgiveness and explain why that’s not at all a good thing.

  11. Michael says:


    If Chandler were just innocently engaging in semi-course jesting, he wouldn’t be sat down. The accuser has lawyered up…same crap, different day.

  12. Michael says:

    Mark Driscoll is a fraud supported by frauds who think they are doing something related to God…which describes most of the scene I survey…

  13. BrianD says:

    Didn’t know THAT, Michael. My life is so much better not having this evangelical/Reformed c… in my life.

  14. Michael says:

    The social justice link has a point.

    The problem is that if one expresses the same the care for the things spoken of in the Bible that God cares about…you get tagged and dismissed as one of these.

    Jesus is not pleased with this…

  15. BrianD says:

    On a side note, re: your recent post on hell, I can think of at least one God-denier, on this site no less, whom I would like to see in heaven, along with his family.

    I’d like to see everyone in heaven…I hope first for life after death and then for universalism (in the good place!), even though the theology that was engrained in me as a kid tells me few will pass through the pearly gates.

  16. Michael says:


    There is something wrong with anyone who doesn’t have a glimmer of hope that everything on heaven and earth will be reconciled somehow.

    I may be wrong, but I hope I’m wrong for the right reasons.

    The idea that most of those I’ve dealt with over the decades are “in” and the people they dissuaded of good are out…sounds like hell to me.

  17. BrianD says:


    I cannot imagine an eternity filled with many of the “Christian” people I have met being more of themselves being heavenly.

    I’ve asked myself how can I consign certain people to hell and hope for universalism. I had to admit that even the worst people deserve God’s grace and mercy.

    If heaven is a big place, then surely it’s big enough for me to love everyone who’s there…and certain ones from afar…

  18. Michael says:


    I’m in negotiations with God presently about fencing off my space… 🙂

  19. Dread says:


    Take your time but we need you to keep pricing our reading

    I still hope Mark either finds the exit or …

    Just sick of it. If he went into obscurity we’d be richer.

  20. The New Victor says:

    Universalism is a big stumbling block considering the utterly depraved. My mom once told me that her father was an evil man and that she didn’t want to be in heaven if he was.

    What’s the point of the Frankfurt Declaration?

    Some churches are still in litigation over fines incurred by violating covid rules.

  21. Michael says:

    Universalism is a stumbling block if everyone goes straight to heaven regardless of earthly conduct or choices.
    Thankfully, I don’t know anyone who holds to that scheme…

    Hell may have a redemptive purpose…

  22. Michael says:

    The point of the Frankfurt declaration is the furthering of a new, conservative, Christendom by a bunch of old asshats.

  23. The New Victor says:

    To quote Hawkeye from an old *M*A*S*H* episode, “don’t sugar coat it. Tell us what you really think.”

  24. Jon Bartlett says:

    The Frankfurt declaration – I wouldn’t put my name anywhere near a lot of those on the list. And as for ‘an emergent totalitarianism’ – it all depends what kind of totalitarianism you support?

  25. Dread says:

    What kind of totalitarianism do you support?

  26. Dread says:

    “Take your time but we need you to keep pricing our reading”

    I think I meant provoking but 🤷🏻‍♂️ …

  27. Steve says:

    Social justice without God demands continual revolution. There can not be forgiveness in a system that has no concept of God or an after life where ultimate justice can be dulled out. This kind of social justice needs to be swift and permanent with no mercy which explains cancel culture.

  28. Michael says:

    I think Jon Bartlett is simply pointing out the obvious…that this declaration is simply advocating another flavor of totalitarianism…

  29. Michael says:

    “Social justice without God demands continual revolution. ‘

    That…is astoundingly ridiculous.

    Change the channel, for God’s sake…

  30. Dread says:

    There’s only one kind of totalitarianism that has any purchase in America it is the state wedded to the financial system. Control the money. And it’s raging and racing across our lives while we speak of our invisible kingdom and our mandate to pray and keep silent.

    We have every reason as humans to resist it at every incident and we are complying like obedient subjects. Usually by being offered more perks from the state. Slavery never ends it just reforms.

  31. Michael says:

    What we should resist is the notion that any of the current leadership in this country is committed to anything other than their own selves.

    There are no saviors in sight.

    All of this current foolishness will be interrupted by nature itself sooner than we think.

    The West is running out of water…the next great migration will be internal.

  32. Muff Potter says:

    Michael wrote:
    “Can love take sides” is by Wendell Berry…I did the rest of this crap just to have a place to feature him…”

    I’d rather read Wendell Berry than a whole slew of fundagelical nit-wits any day of the week and six ways to Sunday.

  33. Dread says:

    All the eschatologies converge on the reality of religious, governmental and economic beasts devouring the people. It happens over and again.

  34. Michael says:



  35. Dread says:

    Wendell is brilliant and yet it left me cold.

  36. Steve says:

    Michael, I go to your channel to participate outside of an echo chamber. But sometimes it’s just a different kind of echo. So, instead of ridiculing me, just curious what you think social justice is without God? Is there such a thing and if so what is it’s stated goal?

  37. Duane Arnold says:

    Frankfurt Declaration… fatally flawed in logic and theology.

  38. Michael says:


    I don’t view the world through the lens of American evangelicalism.
    I read the Scriptures…particularly the OT prophets and the words of Jesus…that tell me that the issues we blasphemously discard as ‘social justice”… are indeed the heartbeat of God for human flourishing.

    He holds sacred and secular realms accountable …and judges both according to the standards he sets, not according to the political whims of the age.

  39. Em says:

    Michael @10:55

  40. Dread says:

    You made a big deal out of modifiers in the case of “Biblical Christianity” I admitted knowing that the phrasing would raise hackles. Not without cause but it illustrated the problem of communication.

    I reject the idea that evangelicals blasphemously reject justice. The modifier “social” now comes with all sorts of remedies that end up with unjust coercive effects. The modifiers do matter as you noted.

    We should discuss the judgments of God in history. Without question we are seeing it and perhaps in the very outcomes that I denounce.

    What we need is an ethos that makes a path for true justice and bends low willingly to bring it.

  41. Em says:

    “We should discuss the judgments of God in history…………. to bring it on.”
    Good ponder, Dread

  42. Michael says:


    I speak of those who deny that injustice exists…or has historically existed in such a way that the effects are still felt.

    Some remedies are unjust…but remedies are needed.

    Unless you can enlighten me otherwise, God’s judgments in history were against the only nation He has ever been in covenant with.

    None of that would apply here, except eschatologically…

  43. Dread says:

    So there is no hand of God in history until the eschaton? Only raw power and the will of man? There is no rectifying hand of God? No setting right the wrongs? There is no righteous hand of God in history? There is only chaos until the order of the last things? There is no reason to believe in a deliverer? There is no answer when we pray?

    You spoke of holding realms accountable — so that is merely the end of days? And then you believe it will all be remedial correction.

    We disagree profoundly.

  44. Michael says:


    You spoke of the judgment of God.
    Outside of Scripture where such judgment is clearly stated, how are we to know when God’s judgment has fallen and why?

    Did Germany receive judgment for the Holocaust and was it in measure to what that country had done?

    How do you parse these things?

    For what crimes against God is judgment coming now?

    I believe in a deliverer…but I know what His name is.

    Prayers are answered…but those mysteries are endless in themselves.

  45. Dead says:

    Not hard to see the long sweep of history. God is active. Hell yes Germany was judged.

    No one parses it clearly but evil never prevails without being brought low.

    Placing it in the area of ‘his ways are passed finding out’ is a place we can meet.

  46. Michael says:

    So…Germany killed 6 million Jews and millions more died because of their aggression.

    God judged them….by defeating them in war?

    Evil does indeed prevail…which is why the souls under the altar still cry for justice…these things do not track easily.

  47. bob1 says:

    The Gerson column is unbelievably articulate. Thanks for posting it, Michael.

  48. Michael says:


    I’m still trying to get my mouth closed…jaw dropping writing.

  49. bob1 says:

    Yeah, me too.
    I think Gerson was a speechwriter for one of the Bushes.
    He sure as hell can write!

  50. Dread says:

    You can’t believe an anti-evangelical anti-trump piece is in the Post?

    I’ve not read it yet but that’s why the Post exists.

  51. Michael says:

    He writes from the perspective of an evangelical…the most Gospel filled piece in Post history…

  52. Officerhoppy says:

    The Washington Post article is well worth the read.

    If I am classified as evangelical I hope it is by my faith and by my practices taught and modeled by Jesus in scripture and outlined here; not by my politics

  53. Dread says:

    Mr Gerson is definitely anointed with an ability to write that inspires near worship. His flair and rhetorical gifts obscure his clear partisan progressive agenda. He’s able to find every angle to demonize caricature and dismiss his quarry. To those sharing his critique he’s near inerrancy status. Took two readings for me to grasp the breathless praise he inspires.

    But Gospel? No! There is no Gospel in his script just another appeal to conscience in a way to herd the recalcitrant into compliance with progressive salvation.

    These devices are only ever used on one group. Gerson manages to turn the Christian conservative into both the panting mob of the triumphal entry and the deceptive privileged elite laying the trap for his demise. It’s elegant – no wonder you gaze in adoration.

    But there is no crisis of cross or new creation in Gerson. No, he simply joins his powers to those who would silence and subdue the “other” in favor of his not so veiled “us.”

    The ”revolutionary ideal of Jesus” conclusion says it all.

    Gospel goes far deeper than this reimagined 19th century liberalism that ended in catastrophic German nationalism. His critique simply creates what he seeks to dismantle. He is guilty of building what he claims to want to destroy.

    It should be read aloud with a whisper.

    Not impressed. Not silenced. While I share his despising of Christian nationalism as I have often stated – This will only fuel it.

  54. Dread says:

    The eery release of Gerson’s words from WaPo as El Biden was demonizing the same tribe before a haunting backdrop is surely an accidental reveal. Was it the Jan 6 mock trial producers? We’ve been here before.

  55. Duane Arnold says:

    “…his clear partisan progressive agenda…”

    I take it that you know Mr. Gerson and his background…

  56. Dread says:

    He’s a neocon doing penance.

  57. Duane Arnold says:

    Or, he might simply be a conservative Christian with an Evangelical background who sees very clearly where things have gone and where they are going…

  58. Dread says:

    He should see. He participated in a conservative administration that lied to the world and destabilized the entire Middle East handing nation after nation over to totalitarian revolutions.

    But he doesn’t see the actual totalitarian impulses he is undergirding – like a bad driver he has overcorrected in the ice.

  59. Duane Arnold says:

    Must be reading a different article than the one I read…

  60. Duane Arnold says:

    “The eery release of Gerson’s words from WaPo as El Biden was demonizing the same tribe before a haunting backdrop is surely an accidental reveal. Was it the Jan 6 mock trial producers? We’ve been here before.”

    Yet another conspiracy! I think the shopping cart is getting full…😁

  61. Officerhoppy says:

    Yeah…we must have read a different article….

  62. Dread says:

    When Gerson or anyone steps up and gives a serious theological critique to both the left and the right and the religious perversions that undergird them I will sit up and take notice.

    Until then he’s just a political hack with great writing skills, a bad conscience and a liberal theological perspective.

    As for my nose twisting in the notice that Gerson and Biden went on at the same time wagging fingers at the same beast?? …. like I said “meh” Conspiracy? No, but not coincidence either. WaPo has editorial awareness.

    And the failure to see the incessant totalitarianism of current politics in power is just whistling past the graveyard.

  63. Michael says:


    I am completely astounded and more than a little saddened at your review of this piece.

    I blessedly saw nothing “progressive’ in it…just a brilliant rebuke that I have been trying to find words for myself.

    Nor did I perceive any liberal theology…just a recitation of who Jesus is and what He came to do.

    If we are truly this far apart in our understandings…which I did not believe to be the case…then as a country and a church we are in deep trouble indeed.

  64. Michael says:

    That was amazing writing as well…the two pieces work well together…

  65. Victorious says:

    Gerson plus the Plough article pair well together. Thanks!

  66. Dread says:

    Rowan Williams has written worthily and it bears no resemblance to the politically motivated work done by Gerson.

    When Gerson writes as alarmingly about what Biden showed us last night and his minions as he has about Trump … I will listen.

    If you do not see Joe Biden as an equal opposite danger to Trumpism then we indeed have eroding common ground. His antichrist demagogic ranting in Philadelphia last night will mark his presidency. That he was fist shaking at us draped in cartoonish foreboding imagery when Gerson’s piece dropped on your page did not help my attitude.

    Gerson has Jesus the example, the moral paragon. He does not have Jesus the incarnate holy love of triune deity come to destroy the works of darkness. He shows nothing of the one who has no political allegiance except the Father’s business. Gerson is political to the core.

    Whatever Gerson was in terms of conservatism is not what he is, I can read. His writings are properly attuned to allow him to abide in the polite society of the privileged elites while branding the rabble of people who are affected by their damnable policies as brutish Trumpists.

    Gerson writes about Jesus but there is nothing of the worship and wonder of Jesus in his pen. It is the Jesus of history, the peasant prophet that he thinks he idolizes. Meanwhile Gerson sits with the mighty who Jesus said would be pulled down from their seats. When did Gerson repent his malignant power politics?

    You don’t keep your place at the table where he sits without costs. He paid yesterday and has been paying for a while now.

    His Christianity is old line liberalism not Gospel. He is perhaps a lover of love but the Gospel does a greater work than that.

  67. Dread says:

    To be sure much of Christianity needs evangelizing but it needs to be in the Gospel of grace not in the love of love. They are worlds apart. The one brings new creation the other just produces sentimentalists with indulgence.

  68. Michael says:

    I’ve read the Gerson piece repeatedly looking for liberal theology and liberal politics.

    I can’t find it.

    It is simply a description that accurately summarizes the insanity that Trump has wrought.

    It is not in opposition to conservatism or affirming of liberalism…it addresses the reasons why this person and his ways are antithetical to the faith.

    Is any critique of this madman off limits?

    If someone wrote as well about the lunatic left fringe I would applaud it as well.

    Perhaps the civil war has already begun…I always knew this site would be one of the first casualties.

  69. Steve says:

    Dread, I read the same Gerson article you read and your comments are spot on and very helpful.

  70. Duane Arnold says:

    The commonality is that both Gerson and Williams call out the idolatry of politics. Apparently that is unacceptable to some…

  71. Michael says:

    We live in alternative realities now where everything is looked at through tribal lenses and sensitivities.

    Words take on different meanings and there can be no truths except those which serve the felt needs of each tribe.

    Meanwhile, the tribes lament the loss of truth itself.

    I am utterly confounded about the reality I perceive…I certainly have nothing to contribute to it…nor do I want to.

    I spent my life paying for the belief that truth matters…too old to change now.

  72. Em says:

    Psalm 111:10

  73. Nonnie says:

    I so very much appreciate Dread’s comments here. Thank you!

  74. Dread says:

    Critique the madmen by all means. No aversion to that whatsoever.

  75. Nathan Priddis says:

    Big Bang Theory…

    ..”In the 1920s both Lemaître and another physicist, Edmund Hubble, separately were working on calculations that described an expanding universe. This flew in the face of existing models that proposed the universe is static. But by 1930 new observations, plus Lemaître’s and Hubble’s work, persuaded as least some physicists that the universe is indeed expanding. But expanding from what?..”..

    The Catholic Church should rightly be proud of Father Lamaitre. Edwin Hubbel and Fr. Lamaitre do not occupy the top place if I was to list possible influences on my thinking. I would problem select first Max Planck, with Einstein and Newton. Unknown to me was another clergyman, John Mitchell, who theorized the concept of what he called Dark Stars in1783.

    Father Lamaitre’s work renders the Young Earth / Old Earth feud completely mute. It damages the credibility of Church to continue the argument because it is based on a static Universe, when the Universe has been known to be expanding…for a century.

    The problem I faced with an expanding Universe was partly the pejorative name itself.. It invoked the image of a grenade. An omni directional explosion.

    To quote the article…But expanding from what? My current understanding of the Universe is hollographic expansion. Not an omni directional explosion, but rather from a curved 2D field the Genesis calls raqia. This concept places the raqia as the final stage of possibly five components the resulting in our World. In other words, our World is produced by a system, not magic.

    My understanding of the World and my place in it, would not function with Fr. Lamaitre. The Hollographic Principle did not begin to form till the 1990’s, but to work, HP needs Fr. Lamaitre. HP demands enormous data compression to work. At it’s core, inflation of a non-static Universe says compression is a given fact.

    The actual mechanism of compacting the entire Universe into a small device, will be up to Planck and Einstein, respectively.

  76. Nathan Priddis says: usual. My understanding would NOT function without Fr. Lamaitre.

  77. Michael says:


    I’m done.

    I’ve spent most of the weekend trying to understand the reaction to a piece that I wish I had the skills to write.

    It was written by someone who claims to be conservative and it was eloquent and measured.

    I’ve re-read it to find liberal theology or liberal politics…I must be too stupid to see it.

    Stupidity has been a hallmark of all my attempts to understand how people who I can testify are good and intelligent will bear no criticism of one of the most wicked men in American history.

    I have come to something of a connection between people who are continually duped by authoritarian pastors and those who excuse the banal evil of Trump, but I am tired and the connection tenuous.

    My life has been built around being able to connect and communicate with all sorts of different people with respect and , often, admiration.

    It has also been noted for calling out corruption in the powerful.

    Neither of these things is in fashion anymore…and the people who cheered when I took on some bad guys , now despise me for taking on this one.

    I have nothing to contribute here, but I’m good with cats and they with me…I suspect that is one bond I have that is safe.

    From now on, I’ll be here when duty calls…but when I’m pitted against people I love, it’s time to hang up my skates.

  78. pstrmike says:

    I’m trying to sleep off a Sunday from hell to no avail.

    I’m with you, Michael. I didn’t find a problem with the article, and as you know my credentials indicate that I am more conservative than you. I don’t understand a church that voted for Trump almost six years ago, ignoring a lifetime record of a life antithetical to the Sermon on the Mount.

    I think there is something in the air….

    I came across this in my reading last night, and found it applicable to post here. It’s from a commentary on The Rule of Benedict written by Joan Chittister.

    “In this rule of life, violence is simply discounted. Violence doesn’t work. Not political violence, not social violence, not physical violence, not even the violence that we do to ourselves in the name of religion. Wars haven’t worked. Classism hasn’t worked. Fanaticism hasn’t worked. Benedictinism, on the other hand, simply does not have as its goal either to beat the body down or to vanquish the world. Benedictinism simply sets out to gentle a universe riddled with violence by being a peaceful voice for peace in a world that thinks that everything—international relations, child rearing, economic development, even everything in the spiritual life—is accomplished by force.”

    With the exception of a few groups, I don’t think the church has bothered to give this much thought in order to understand this. I wonder if we are really capable.

  79. Michael says:


    Well said and thank you.

    I can’t help but believe I’m missing what this is all really about…but trying has worn me out.

  80. Dan from Georgia says:


    Thanks for your comment at 242pm today Pacific Time. Something set me off and askew yesterday with a few comments. Not sure if I’ll post anymore here…nothing you are doing or not doing Michael, but just tired of all the dishonesty. You are always my friend and will be in my prayers for you and your feline friends.

  81. Michael says:


    Thanks…I understand.

    I never thought I’d see this day, but I knew that it was possible that things could get this broken.

    I take the ministry of reconciliation seriously, but one has to understand the other to truly go forward…even if going forward with different stances.

    Blessings on you, my friend.

  82. Dan from Georgia says:

    Thanks Michael. I’ll probably go into total lurking mode for a time. I have loved this community. Things are different lately. Blessings to you too!

  83. bob1 says:

    If Joan Chittister’s comments on what it means to be a Benedictine are true…

    Where do I sign up?

    And, why wouldn’t many others? (sadly, I think I know the answer.)

  84. Nonnie says:

    Michael, you said, “when I’m pitted against people I love, it’s time to hang up my skates.”. I don’t understand why you feel you are pitted against people you love because we may disagree with one another. I am certainly not against you. I love you as a friend, but am confounded by some of the things you say here, but that does not change my love, respect and hope for you. I really don’t understand why you would respond this way. Can we not view certain issues differently and yet, still remain friends, care for the good of one another, and just figure, “well, he/she certainly sees things differently that I do.”

  85. Michael says:


    As is usually the case, there has been more than a bit of off site interactions…none of them positive.

    My heart toward you is as it has been for many years now and will not change.

  86. Nonnie says:

    I can only speak for myself. You are a treasured brother in the Lord. Do not be weary in well doing in what God has called you to do. … to everything there is a season. Be at peace in what He calls you to, knowing you are loved. We may not agree in all things, but I do believe we agree and rest in Him who is before all things and in Him holds all things together. God bless you, my friend.

  87. Dread says:

    For clarity there is zero off site interaction on my part about this discussion – not public or private.

    Everything I have said is here. My regard for Michael is not based upon any theological or political conflict.

    We simply disagree.

  88. Pineapple Head says:

    I vibe with the Gerson article. Didn’t find it “liberal” or “progressive.” I wonder if some wish he were more “evangelical” or doctrinal in his piece. But the article isn’t a sermon or a statement of faith.

    Every once in a while some will say to me after I preach, “You forgot to say…” To which I usually reply,”Actually, I didn’t.” But for some reason they though I left something out and it hindered their ability to hear what I was saying.

    Even if some felt something was missing from the article, there was plenty of food for thought.

  89. Pineapple Head says:

    The Dan Allender interview was great, but the episode just before it about healing from spiritual trauma was my favorite in the whole series.

  90. Duane Arnold says:

    If you put them on a sliding theological scale, Williams is far more liberal than Gerson who is conservative by almost any measure. I can stand behind this evaluation on the basis of personal knowledge and experience.

    This is not about theology, it is about politics… and it is, as we can see, destructive.

  91. pstrmike says:

    “Every once in a while some will say to me after I preach, “You forgot to say…” To which I usually reply,”Actually, I didn’t.” But for some reason they though I left something out and it hindered their ability to hear what I was saying.”

    Yep. I usually respond with validating their observation—unless I disagree—and tell them there is only so much I can cover in a 35-45 minute period. They just don’t know what they don’t know.

    “This is not about theology, it is about politics… and it is, as we can see, destructive.”

    Our theology informs our politics and our politics informs our theology. I think they are interwoven to a degree.

    “Politics is the cure of the soul— it is a secular theology. Politicians judge on the basis of fairness which is based on their experience, and their experience is opinion.
    Political philosophy— quest to replace opinion with truth— it doesn’t lose sight of the fact that those are two different ideals.” — Warren Gage

  92. Duane Arnold says:

    “Our theology informs our politics and our politics informs our theology. I think they are interwoven to a degree.”

    I think this has always been the case, but now it has gone from “informing” to the category of “identifying”. When, as Christians, our identity is, or becomes, political, we have lost an essential part of who we are and what we truly believe… And it is destructive, as we see…

  93. Officerhoppy says:

    “ I think this has always been the case, but now it has gone from “informing” to the category of “identifying”

    I can’t help but whole heartedly agree with that statement which, I think, was a point the author was making.

  94. Dread says:

    Clearly my ferocity and content have been offensive to Michael. I am sorry. Making points is not worth losing a forum and a friendship.

    There are things received that do not represent my intent but my posts do represent my thinking. Were we face to face we would work do better at working it out.

    Michael I am sorry for my strident tone and immovable temperament. Please receive this and continue.

    We’d reached a better place in theological discussion. I’m not willing to lose that without admitting my fault.

    I shall attempt to moderate myself. No doubt I’ll transgress. I remain an evangelical and a conservative and hopefully a friend.

    Please accept this as is is intended.

  95. Michael says:


    The posture of my heart toward you has not changed.

    I will take this moment to clarify some things.

    I have no issue with faithful evangelicals. I have huge issues with those evangelicals who have mixed temporal political beliefs with the faith and produced a mutation incapable of giving life, but wholly capable of inducing death.

    I have no issue with traditional conservatives…indeed, I am grateful to those who have not sold themselves out to Trumpism and pray that their tribe would increase…we very much need the balance they offer to traditional liberalism and especially against the fringes on both sides.

    I live in a state where that balance has been lost and the fruit is both good and rotten to the core….with the rot beginning to take over.

    I have no alliance to any of the current corruptions whatever they are called.

    I have no issue with spirited disagreement, when the conflicts are clear. The article in question was true to my understanding…where was my understanding wrong?

    I do not claim to be overtly patriotic….but when a lie is sold that our vote no longer counts…even when that lie has been refuted by the liars own people…when that lie is believed we are close to losing our country and the liar should be held in the utmost contempt.

    My concern over two decades here has been the purity and health of the local church…that’s what every fight has been about at it’s core. It was about protecting God’s people from wolvesI stand by my work, even if I have marked my last wolf.

    Finally, my heart has not changed toward anyone…but it is also broken when things outside the faith have caused such division and rancor.

    I’m also aware that I’ve lost all those fights, though I left a mark.
    The stakes are even higher now, but I hope youth is served by another soldier and I get to move on to a cleaner litter box.

  96. Dread says:

    Thank you for your response. Nothing more from me tonight. I stand having spoken my mind and heart.

  97. Officerhoppy says:

    Pretty cool exchange between you two men

  98. Duane Arnold says:


    Outrage sells. We’ve learned that from the algorithms of social media platforms. The outrage may have little to do with the truth or reality of an opposing opinion. What is important is the vehemence expressed in the outraged reaction. The unfortunate corollary, is that it leaves destruction in its wake. As we’ve seen in this thread, good people back away and no longer want to expose themselves…

    While this has become the norm on many social media platforms, it is unfortunate that it has made its way here. It is baffling and, as you say, it is heartbreaking. As we continue (or not) we are left to consider what we have lost…

  99. steve says:

    For what its worth, I take back my comment that this site is just another echo chamber. I am definitely out of my league with both of you. I’m very glad with the diversity of thought with kindness that has been shown between Dread and Michael.

  100. Dread says:


    Michael and I have been acquainted many years. We are one in Spirit if not thought. We also can misunderstand each other at times— Though on this I think we genuinely disagree.

    But take a minute also to appreciate the surgical precision of Duane’s malice. We are not friends but I am awed by his skillful and merciless executions. He swings his sword and it takes hours for your head to fall off.

    There’s something for everyone here.

  101. Nathan Priddis says:

    Duane Arnold..
    …the skill of a surgeon..

    Dread. That’s a movie line right there. But its gotta be enunciated right.

  102. Duane Arnold says:

    No malice… just observation.

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