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102 Responses

  1. CrucifiED says:

    Good article over at Internet Monk.

  2. em says:

    the Tullian link intrigued me, but not enough to sign in… that said, i could read that his wife Kim was quoted as saying her husband’s statement did not reflect her own view… hmmm

  3. em says:

    internet monk link reminded me that, as i listened to Tchividjian on Sunday mornings, i was watching someone who had discovered a gospel truth and was doing his best to trumpet his discovery… it didn’t make him more spiritual or Lutheran – like all God’s Truths, it was energizing and joyous for him and in his role as pastor, he HAD to do his best to share it … and the Church desparately needs the reminder or the education – he sounded much more like my old teacher, Bob Thieme than anyone else… (some folk went around the bend on Thieme also… identifying with a personality, not Christ)…
    did Tchividjian do a good job before crashing? i think he did – it was worth the half hour just to see the faces of the flock as the camera occasionally panned them… some looked so sour and some so touchingly relieved (they got it) and all flavors in between… the congregation was impacted and in a good way… it was affirming for many, i’m sure…

    the devil had to put a stop to it, if he could… do we pray enough for these teachers and pastors? they need the cover and we need the supplies God intends them to bring to us IMNSHO

  4. em says:

    “Discerning the meaning of the present moment requires sobriety, precisely because its radicalism requires of conservatives a realistic sense of how weak our position is in post-Christian America.”
    the author sees the change in America as impacting “orthodox Christians”… sadly, that implies that the Protestant – Evangelical… whatever – world has opted for “go along to get along?”
    good, good article, tho

  5. EricL says:

    em @4, I think the author means all Christians who hold to the basic, orthodox teachings of Christianity, not just those of the Eastern Orthodox persuasion. Confused me at first glance too, but I think he would throw in Catholics and Protestants who hold to the traditional doctrines of our mutual faith. That said, far too many Protestants have opted to go along to get along, as you said.

  6. Erunner says:

    Whoever Ed Young is is an example of the dumbing down of the church. Why not have a Mormom guest because he has conservative views which makes it okay? Didn’t this guy sleep on a roof or something in the past as some sort of gimmick?

  7. Erunner says:

    As far as Mike Huckabee he should know better. The fact is he’s in a huge club that have tossed around mental health terms in a careless manner. I hope he addresses this.

  8. EricL says:

    em @3, thanks for the reminder that we need to be praying for our spiritual leaders. I think that Internet Monk article provides some great insights into both Tchividjian and into Lutherans. (Besides, the picture of cool Luther in shades and smoking a cig is wonderful) We will see what MLD thinks of the article, and maybe he’ll update his gravatar. 🙂

  9. em says:

    Ericl… ahhh orthodox (small “o”) got it – thanks

  10. CrucifiED says:

    em, I enjoyed your comments on Tullian and agree. That is how I feel about Tullian’s discovery of the law/gospel distinction. We need to remember that it is also found in some reformed groups and it makes sense a reformed pastor would preach the way he did.

    I vote for seeing more law/gospel distinction, teaching and preaching in every church regardless of your perspective or denominations. It won’t hurt any of us Lutherans one bit.

  11. em says:

    CrucifiED, glad what i said made sense (for once)… the gospel never hurt anyone, eh?

  12. Michael says:

    Reading Dr. Packer again has convicted me that I have not used strong enough words or convictions in this matter…

  13. em says:

    but those law/gospel “distinctions” … we do strain some ligaments with them at times … when the devil told us that we’d be as wise as God…. he lied… 🙂

  14. em says:

    Michael, i just came off of reading that link and intend to send it on to my grandchildren with a threat to come back from the grave and haunt them, if they don’t take the time to read it

    “My conscience is captive to the Word of God.” … i’m going to print that and hang it up where i see it every day

  15. Michael says:


    He has this way of getting to the heart of a matter and clearing away the debris.
    He keeps me where I need to be…

  16. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “but those law/gospel “distinctions” … we do strain some ligaments with them at times”

    The proper distinction between law & gospel should not be that difficult.
    Law passages in the bible are those things God has commanded us to do.
    Gospel passages in the bible are those things God has promised to do for us.

    The law commands cannot be done
    The gospel passages are already done.

  17. em says:

    i had the radio on last night, trying to take my mind off of the heat… somebody asked as to why the human race had made such scientific advances in the last hundred years and the answer was that up until the late 19th century, the Church killed all the scientists – once we broke loose of their control, we began to advance… SAY WHAT?
    too many buy into that lie

  18. em says:

    MLD, it’s not the “distinctions” that strain, but the human viewpoints of those that want to appear as keepers of the higher Truths

  19. em says:

    MLD, could one say, there’s good news and bad news: “God has said here’s my Law – good news is, God said it – bad news is God meant it?”

  20. Josh The Baptist says:

    Not sure why there is an expose needed of an ex-con that volunteers at Furtick’s church.

    Unless we should put anyone who has ever seen child porn in concentration camps?

  21. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    God said it and meant it and there is nothing you can do about it – 😉

  22. Xenia says:

    Michael wrote: “Reading Dr. Packer again has convicted me that I have not used strong enough words or convictions in this matter…”

    I am glad to hear this. I know you are against SSM but you always said things like: “I am against SSM but. I wanted to hear “I am against SSM full stop.

  23. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    What does full stop mean? That you would do anything to stop a SSM from happening? I am fully against SSM in my church and would raise hell against it.

    If there is a SSM going on down at city hall – eh

  24. em says:

    MLD, yes i can “do something about it”… i can believe what He said that He can do and has done for us – under the circumstances

    to put an even finer point on the point…

    i listened to our President’s wavering rendition of “Amazing Grace” and wondered if it was his vocal skills or his spiritual condition that wavered …. do we think of God’s grace as a sentimental display of His love attribute or an incredible, powerful design display of it?

    i appreciate MLD’s focus on it, anyway – even if the dear Lute is tediously tenacious 🙂

  25. em says:

    time for my nap, but gotta say that we can’t really be cavalier about the whole LGB…. whatevers celebration as it is a flame that flares from a much larger and more dangerous fire…

    we can’t stop it down at city hall or on the Capitol Mall – can God stop it? yes!!! – will He stop it? i doubt it as i suspect He is as anxious as we are to bring His whole plan to its promised close… pray for souls to be saved and pray for the Church to stand – Packer’s example would be a good stand

    God keep

  26. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    em – I meant the law part 🙂

  27. Xenia says:

    “Full stop” is another word for “period.”

    I wanted to hear Michael say he was against SSM without adding a qualifying clause.

    I was talking about conjunctions and punctuation.

  28. Xenia says:

    By the way, I agree with Michael’s exile theme, wholeheartedly.

  29. Papias says:

    The theme of exile is a theme that needs to be reexamined and embraced by the Church at large. Far too long has the Church co-mingled itself with pragmatism.

    When early believers were presented with the choice of sacrificing to Caesar or not, some did it and some did not. Those who did were asked to leave the church. Those who did not were shown martyrdom.

    Its no longer “cool” to be a Christian. We are definitely a “peculiar people”.

  30. Jim says:

    “Packer then proceeds to exegete Paul’s thought in 1 Corinthians 6:9–11 as justification for his decision to lodge this protest. There are only two ways in which we might miss Paul’s point and his directives. One is to embrace an artificial interpretation of the text in which Paul is conceived as speaking of something other than same-sex union.”

    Serious question in response to Dr Packer’s charge. Why did Paul use “arsenokoitai” and how do we know exactly what it means?

    Here’s an example of what the Dr refers to as artificial interpretation:

  31. Michael says:

    “Third: What is Paul saying about homosexuality? Answer: Those who claim to be Christ’s should avoid the practice of same-sex physical connection for orgasm, on the model of heterosexual intercourse. Paul’s phrase, “men who practice homosexuality,” covers two Greek words for the parties involved in these acts. The first, arsenokoitai, means literally “male-bedders,” which seems clear enough. The second, malakoi, is used in many connections to mean “unmanly,” “womanish,” and “effeminate,” and here refers to males matching the woman’s part in physical sex.

    In this context, in which Paul has used two terms for sexual misbehavior, there is really no room for doubt regarding what he has in mind. He must have known, as Christians today know, that some men are sexually drawn to men rather than women, but he is not speaking of inclinations, only of behavior, what has more recently been called acting out. His point is that Christians need to resist these urges, since acting them out cannot please God and will reveal lethal impenitence. Romans 1:26 shows that Paul would have spoken similarly about lesbian acting out if he had had reason to mention it here.”

  32. Michael says:

    A number of scholars have argued convincingly that Paul coined αρσενοκοιται(arsenokoitai) from the presence of two adjacent words in Leviticus 20:13 (αρσενος κοιτην, arsenos koiten; see D. Malick, “The Condemnation of Homosexuality in 1 Corinthians 6:9,” Biblioteca Sacra 150 [1993] 479-492). Leviticus 20:13, it will be recalled, is the strongest prohibition of homosexuality in the Old Testament.

    If, as appears likely, the Apostle Paul has this text in mind in utilizing αρσενοκοιται (arsenokoitai) in 1 Corinthians 6:9, then the term cannot be limited simply to the Greek practice of pederasty, as John Boswell and others argue, but must be seen as an all-encompassing condemnation of homosexuality (as in Lev. 20:13), including consenting adult homosexual relationships.
    Hence, Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich (p. 109) correctly define the term as “a male homosexual, pederast, sodomite,” as do Liddell, Scott, and Jones in the definitive Greek-English Lexicon (p. 246). The Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (1.158) defines the term as “referring to a male who engages in sexual activity with men or boys.”

    The term appears again in the New Testament in 1 Timothy 1:10 where it is paired with πορνοι (pornoi, fornicators), again establishing an illicit sexual practice.

    A century after Paul (about A.D. 155), αρσενοκοιται(arsenokoitai) was used by Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna, in his epistle to the Philippians (5:3) warning young men “to cut themselves off from the lust of the world.” Polycarp then quotes 1 Corinthians 6:9, and refers to the behaviors described therein as “iniquity” (ατοπα, atopa). The Latin Vulgate translates αρσενοκοιται(arsenokoitai) as masculorum concubitores, which, according to Cassell’s New Latin Dictionary, means “the lying together or copulation of men.” Cassell’s includes passages from Cicero and Vergil where it carries this same sense.

  33. Michael says:

    The previous note was written by James R. Edwards when the PCUSA was debating the matter.

  34. Michael says:

    As my father in the faith has spoken so clearly and well, I shall not add anything to his wise and prophetic words.
    I will simply say without equivocation that I am opposed to same sex marriage for the reasons given and for the sake of the Gospel.

  35. em says:

    well, i transcribed a bit of #33 and the devil erased it, i guess – i was timed out – so to paraphrase, Packer pointed out that the Bible is the Creator communicating with his creation and speaking straightforward…
    when communicating, one speaks to be understood – one doesn’t speak in code – therefore it isn’t correct to interpret what Paul has written in any way but straightforward….

    sigh…Packer is much better at expressing the idea and it is a good listen IMHHO

    thank you, Packer and Michael 🙂

  36. Babylon's Dread says:

    Thank you Michael

  37. Michael says:

    No thanks to me…Dr. Packer did all the heavy lifting.
    I hope it’s helpful.

  38. Michael says:

    Packer made this stand when Canada was about where we are now.
    He was defrocked for his efforts.

  39. Babylon's Dread says:

    Essentially to deny something so basic and so clear is tantamount to denying the faith. To deconstruct divine revelation to a degree that ratifies homosexuality as virtuous and given by God leaves virtually no rational basis to defend any claim of the Gospel.

    If divine revelation can fail at so basic a point then it cannot be trusted to deliver a saving word to a sinful world.

  40. Jim says:

    So in the surrounding pagan culture of Lev 18, and 1 Cor 6, lesbianism, pederasty, and temple prostitution were far over shadowed by adult men having sex with adult men.

    History tells a different story.

    Paul invents a word based on a Greek translation of a verse that says “men with males as with women.” I suppose “men with men” would have been too complicated, as would Paul using an existing term.

    This isn’t a slam dunk just because the good Dr says so. Reasonable people have to admit that the odd language is a problem.

  41. Michael says:

    Reasonable people admit that Paul used a unique term.

    They would also have to admit that the whole counsel of God speaks of homosexual relations in a negative manner and nowhere affirms them.

    I’m extremely reasonable. 🙂

  42. em says:

    Jim, if you listen to Packer he doesn’t just “say so”… he is so reasonable that perhaps you miss the fact the he is arguing his point with facts – facts that lead to reasonable conclusions…

  43. brian says:

    All I could understand of the MD interview was “bla bla bla bla bla bla bla Im a victim bla bla bla bla bla I started a great church bla bla bla I made mistakes but Im Mark Driscoll Bla bla bla bla bla bla.” thats all I got out of it, am I close ?

  44. Michael says:


    I didn’t even bother to listen to it.
    Driscoll has yet to discover the depths of his irrelevance.

  45. Steve Wright says:

    Jim, I’ve got some scholarly exegetical commentaries on the passage that go into more detail than even I want to know and are quite irenic in their approach (given the high reputation and scholarship of not only the author but the series in which his one volume is a part)

    These guys give you all the history you might want, citing original sources, and are fair with modern contemporary views that seek to paint a different picture. PAGES discussing the word (and the words that make up the word and their contemporary usage)

    And at the end of the day, they ALL come in full agreement and one accord with what Dr. Packer has stated as well.

    (Well done, Michael)

  46. Michael says:

    One of the problems when we get into these lexigetical issues is that the discussions are held at a much higher level than most blog readers want to read.
    We can present journal articles and commentaries as noted, but most people just glaze over when we post them.

  47. Bob says:

    It seems the homosexual agenda continues to dominate the discussions. In this thread I read some one describing how they, homosexuals, defend such practice as given to them by God and not in the same manner or ways mentioned in Lev. and Romans. Sadly they are correct, God has given them over to homosexualality, but that’s not a good thing at all nor is it a proper defense.

    The problem I keep encountering is the same self satisfying, dominating and perverted sexual practices seems to be desired amongst “hero” couples. In all honesty could the acceptance of homosexuality really be an excuse for hetro people to also become like Sodom? Remember Sodom was not destroyed because of their sexual devitation alone, It was because of how they generally treated others.

    Good thread.

  48. Bob says:

    Actually I think if one were a SBC seeing the phony Glenn Beck speaking at an affiliated church would cause me more than a little concern. Almost as bad as ordaining a Homosexual to the podium.


  49. em says:

    it seems like the Christians know that it is past time to circle the wagons and are now in a panic, trying to decide just whose wagons to include in the circle 🙂
    do we need a wider circle against the enemy of our Christian way of life or do we need a tighter circle to protect the Faith?

  50. Jim says:


    If it helps at all, I read the De Young article a couple of years ago. I’m not intentionally glazing over anything. I find the language problematic, and I think cultural lenses often apply.

    Didn’t Calvin have a much different view, which seemed reflect his culture, of the word effeminate in 1 cor 6? I going from distant memory here, so I could be off….

  51. Michael says:

    “Be not deceived. He takes occasion from one vice to speak of many. I am of opinion, however, that he has pointed out those vices chiefly which prevailed among the Corinthians. He makes use of three terms for reproving those lascivious passions which, as all historical accounts testify, reigned, nay raged, to an extraordinary height in that city. For it was a city that abounded in wealth, (as has been stated elsewhere.) It was a celebrated mart, which was frequented by merchants from many nations. Wealth has luxury as its attendant — the mother of unchastity and all kinds of lasciviousness. In addition to this, a nation which was of itself prone to wantonness, was prompted to it by many other corruptions.
    The difference between fornicators and adulterers is sufficiently well known. By effeminate persons I understand those who, although they do not openly abandon themselves to impurity, discover, nevertheless, their unchastity by blandishments of speech, by lightness of gesture and apparel, and other allurements. The fourth description of crime is the most abominable of all — that monstrous pollution which was but too prevalent in Greece.”


    I think we all know what the monstrous pollution common to Greece referred to…

  52. Jim says:

    The second, malakoi, is used in many connections to mean “unmanly,” “womanish,” and “effeminate,” and here refers to males matching the woman’s part in physical sex.


    By effeminate persons I understand those who, although they do not openly abandon themselves to impurity, discover, nevertheless, their unchastity by blandishments of speech, by lightness of gesture and apparel, and other allurements.

    Where did “effeminate” go in the ESV and some other modern translations?

  53. Michael says:

    “Where did “effeminate” go in the ESV and some other modern translations?”

    We’re 500 years down the road from Calvin and though he was a master of the tools he had, the tools we have today are better.
    We have far more and older manuscripts and more extra biblical texts to compare the linguistics with.

  54. Michael says:

    We also have to deal with the fact that the very term “homosexual” is a 19th century category creation.

  55. Surfer51 says:

    This gay marriage ruling is going to cause a lot of repercussions.

    The reporters are already bringing up some of the finer surface points as it were.

    The LA Times had a couple of articles:

    I see churches eventually loosing tax exempt status down the road if they don’t go along with the consensus orthodoxy of the world.

  56. brian says:

    “Driscoll has yet to discover the depths of his irrelevance.” funny I am the most free when I understand the depths of my irrelevance when compared to this wonderfully created world and It’s Creator. I actually think it would do him some good if he did discover that.

  57. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I don’t see the churches losing tax exemption, first for the obvious reasons – but then there is the fact that many congress people would have to cave and be answerable. Most, probably 85% hold religious affiliation and even Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden would feel the wrath of the RCC personally if they attempted such an action.

  58. em says:

    the Driscoll comments brought to mind the Pete thread…
    1Pe’ “……for
    “All flesh is like grass
    and all its glory like the flower of grass.
    The grass withers,
    and the flower falls,”
    have to say some flesh is more glorious than other flesh, but…
    what will be left after the grass withers and dies? … the answer, which is in !Peter chapter one gets more relevant (and obvious) for me each day…
    but we all know the answer …. 🙂

  59. em says:

    i don’t see anyone wanting to make the tax exemption a public debate as there is a whole lot of valuable real estate tied up in that exemption, not just the church on the corner… it will be interesting to see, if the iconoclastic revelers can make it an issue, tho… hmmmm

  60. Erik says:

    J.I. Packer on same sex blessing

    I like Packer response. I forwarded it too some people I know.

  61. Doubting Bob says:


    I went to your web page and link and I assume that is a record of an old “prophecy” you feel is now appropriate.

    Here’s what I heard in those writings:

    A lot of generalization and Charismatic syntax. Additionally it is mentioned they “primed the pump” and these men were very familiar with the bible text.

    Personally I read a lot of “red flags,” no revelations, nor did I really read anything specific enough to cause concern. Sadly I believe the headlines in the papers and Internet over the past week are far more “prophetic” than the words you posted.

    What the world needs are people who understand God is one, God alone, there is no other and love Him first and then others.

    I will be bold enough to say the abuse and violence of God’s creation is what is at the heart of most issues. Homosexuality and any sexual perversion is abuse and domination of one over another. If we really care about others we wouldn’t perform unnatural acts nor would we force others to follow our lead. Mutual consent is not a proper defense of such abusive behavior.

    But I’m irrelevant so who really cares.

  62. em says:

    the Men of God link made me a bit sad…. they seemed to be muddled men, like most of us are …
    for solid information, i’ll take one dedicated, slugging it out with the Book and its Author Packer over the campfire guys… my soul needs edification, not rambling observations of what any Believer can pretty much think on their own… or so it seems to me this hot July morning

  63. em says:

    hmmm Bree Newsome a hero of the Christian Faith? probably not, but she has something to say and seems to have dedicated her life to sticking her neck out to say it…
    like the Jews of the Holocaust: “never again, never, never never again”
    lots of us would have climbed that flagpole BTW – no problem with that

    sadly there will always be haters…. and sadly the righteous push back won’t always produce good results… since Bree mentioned it, for whatever reasons – i don’t know them – Zimbabwe is not much of an improvement over Rhodesia… IMHO

    since nobody asked me… 🙂

  64. Anne says:

    “If divine revelation can fail at so basic a point then it cannot be trusted to deliver a saving word to a sinful world.” Well said, BD.

    And since the church universal, the body of proclaimed believers, theologians beyond counting, cannot seem to agree on basics of what needs to be believed, let alone how that translates into daily living for us mortals, “to be saved” and the assumed “divine revelation” of the bible has so easily cherry picked, interpreted and re-intepreted over the centuries, is it any wonder it is hard to trust?

  65. Irrelevant Bob says:


    I think the question of “salvation” and what single “right” belief is spelled out in just a few verses in Romans. The problem is there is a lot of confusion about “right” living and salvation. I think most on this blog agree right living never saves, but it sure goes a long way toward making life with our neighbor a whole lot easier.

    I’m one who believes homosexual and any deviant person who lives “wrong” can be saved by God’s grace. If this were not the case no one could be saved. But to use that grace as a justification and therefore approval of such deviant living is wrong.

  66. “hmmm Bree Newsome a hero of the Christian Faith? probably not, but…”?????

    our definition of heros is vastly different.

    I admire anyone who actually DOES SOMETHING positive, uplifting and constructive, especially motivated by their faith, especially being honest, transparent and calling on God to strengthen her in the midst of something so scary. Her story and her family’s story are inspiring, especially what they’ve had to endure.–5hzb8cl4–/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/1319043319746595500.jpg

    “Zimbabwe is not much of an improvement over Rhodesia”
    wow, just wow

  67. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Anne, at #72 I don’t understand where you see the lack of clarity. Aside from what the theologians & scholars say (and many or most of those may not be saved anyway) the Bible is pretty clear.
    Jesus told Nicodemus that you must be born from above to be saved. Paul told the jailer to believe in Jesus.

    Now, the Bible is about the work of Jesus and not about our work, but even then the scripture is clear telling us to love God and love your neighbor.

    Do we really need a scholar to expound on that?

  68. Em says:

    G., there were a lot of heroes of the Christian Faith there in Charleston… and i didn’t know your link was to a woman who was acting in the name of Christ – wasn’t she just a brave woman making a statement?

    how do you think the Republic of Zimbabwe has improved the life of its citizens?

    i’d like to live to see the time when we recognize meanness and corruption for what they are and they are not race or color dependent

  69. A Friend says:

    Interesting to observe the whole gay marriage thing from outside the evangelical box.

    I’ve been viewing discussions about the issue on an orthodox Jewish rabbi’s page…and he is taking a pretty moderate to liberal position on the issue of gay marriage…calling it a “religious sin” but not a moral sin…asserting that it falls in the 1st tablet of the 10 commandments and not the 2nd tablet.

    The hardest liners are the Muslims on the thread gloating that the gays will be burning in hell.

    …interesting…pretty much like the convos on here. Which Group are you in? (general you)

  70. “and i didn’t know your link was to a woman who was acting in the name of Christ – wasn’t she just a brave woman making a statement?”


    Doesn’t that qualify as a hero?

  71. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    I’d go along more with what muslims believe about sodomites/lesbians, that if they don’t repent they will suffer eternally in the Lake of Fire

  72. SolRod,
    Isn’t that the same fate of any nice faithful “straight” person who works at a food pantry but outwardly denies, rejects and mocks Jesus?

    If you are going toreject Jesus you might as well go out getting your jollies anyway you can.

  73. Em says:

    G, i think we’re splitting hairs (or hares 🙂 ) …
    don’t think i said she wasn’t a hero… just that she didn’t fit my definition of a “hero of the Faith”

    and… wasn’t she a heroine? or are we to stay gender neutral nowadays? – to split another hair

    God keep

  74. passin throgh says:

    Would it really kill anyone here to show compassion and understanding? Like Jesus?

    According to May’s polling results from Pew Research Center, 48 percent of lesbian, gay and bisexual Americans identify as Christian

  75. passin through,
    You may need to develop your point. I am sure that if Pew did a poll a larger percentage of racial bigots would self identify as Christians and I don’t think that would draw much compassion out of you.

    So – there is a poll about homosexuals, and what does that mean?

    ** racial bigots who just hold deep racial thoughts but would never go out and hurt anyone **

  76. Bob says:


    Jesus had compassion all right He did for all, even the lost. However, you forget to mention He also said , “sin no more” to the woman and when people were healed He sent them to follow the prescribed rules for cleansing.

    We know His teaching on adultery and you might notice it’s a bit hard, so how do you think He’d deal with the question of homosexual marriage?

    It would be a whole lot easier for you if you actually knew what He taught than to go with out current popular “revisionist” views passed around like candy to babies.

    Grace is never a justification nor approval of any sin.

  77. The church is a bigger threat to Christians on this issue than the courts. For those who think all Christians are equal, this issue is one reason that those of us in the LCMS refuse to commune with the ELCA.

    Think about that the next time you have free and open communion. 😉

  78. Em says:

    MLD, those words give me pause… send chills up my spine and make me a bit tired – a little teary, even
    you are, sadly, correct – the establishment churches will turn on those who stand now on this issue and will do so under a contrived umbrella of love and grace, when in reality it is compromise of Truth… will we now see the end of God’s patience?

  79. A Friend says:

    “Grace is never a justification nor approval of any sin.”

    Was Slavery a sin? Concubines, multiple wives? Slaughtering all the women, children and babies of an enemy?

  80. Richard says:

    What about taking things out of context?

  81. Bob says:



    But you may think because it was allowed by God’s grace it was justified.

    You know parts of the picture, but fail to step back and view the whole work of art.

  82. A Friend says:

    Good, I’ve been “praying” for this…maybe “God” is listening after all:

    If “God” is real…he’ll judge “the church” for how they treat the abused and the children and how they get rich off of selling the Gospel for greedy gain.

    The more “the church” keeps saying “God” will judge America for the gays….the more “the church” ignores and says “not our problem!” with regards to abuse and corruption in their ranks….the more “God” will give them over to their enemies.

    Praise God!

    Can I get an amen?

  83. Bob says:


    When ever one shouts “amen” over another’s judgment one should look in the mirror.

    Instead maybe a little shudder and fear would be more appropriate.

    “I’m glad I’m not like him…”

    “Danger Will Robinson!”

  84. Babylon's Dread says:

    There is lots of talk about the church invoking judgement on America on this blog but it is rather misplaced as people espousing that framework do not frequent this place too often. Some of us still believe in judgment and in God’s righteous action in history but we are pretty clear that it begins at our own door.

    Protests against those who transfer Israel’s covenant to America pretty much have nowhere to aim around here.

    Further, what is being asked? Should we just ignore this gay marriage issue like we ultimately ignore most stuff?

  85. Michael says:

    I have addressed this on the new thread.
    I believe that until and unless we address our own sins honestly all efforts to wage culture wars will fail.
    What are you calling for us to do, Dread?

  86. A Friend says:

    “When ever one shouts “amen” over another’s judgment one should look in the mirror.”

    I do, every time I say it…it reminds me to resist doing the same.

  87. A Friend says:

    I am one of the weird folks who appreciates and loves “God’s” righteous judgment. I experienced it big time at one time in my life…and it cleaned some major things up for me for which I am grateful.

  88. A Friend says:

    “Further, what is being asked? Should we just ignore this gay marriage issue like we ultimately ignore most stuff?”

    Agreed, we shouldn’t ignore it, we should use it as an opportunity to emulate Jesus. Easy to say, hard to do.

  89. peter b says:

    can you fix the link to the “Tullian Fallout” article so that we don’t have to go through the Sentinal “signup” feature to get to the article. That would be really cool. thanks

  90. Michael says:

    peter b,

    I don’t have that kind of authority over their website…

  91. Bob says:


    “I do, every time I say it…it reminds me to resist doing the same.”

    The man at worship said, “I’m not like him…”

    That is very much the same as what you just wrote, when he saw the sinner he was reminded to not be like him, which is a good thing. The text is full of commands to bring remembrance, but of what?

    I am reminded that I am like him! But, His mercy and grace sustains me, or more simply put, allows me not to do the same. Yet, I am under the same judgment as the sinner and only the mercy I receive though His work is worthy of praise.

    Did you forget the reaction of Jesus when He saw judgment coming to the City of Jerusalem? We should all be the same, no shouts of praise at all!

    Our praise is for His mercy!!!!

  92. Bob says:


    “Protests against those who transfer Israel’s covenant to America pretty much have nowhere to aim around here. ”

    Where did this come from?

    I also thought you are one of those who teaches “replacement” theology and how the Church is now Israel and neither the natural or political are true Israel.

    The SCOTUS ruling is judgment, with all its unintended consequences, judgement on the USA.

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