Linkathon 4/14, part 2

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  1. Michael says:

    Tony Jones just sealed the deal for me…”I hope to meet her wife”.

    Can’t go there…

  2. Michael says:

    He’s right…history is not made by the masses.

    He’s dead wrong about kids and he truly borders on crazy and dangerous.

  3. Dusty says:

    Quote from above, ” Only these believers may not come out and talk openly about their sexual desires. ”

    ummmm do any of us come out and talk openly about our sexual desires?

  4. Dusty says:

    😳

  5. BrianD says:

    How so, Michael?

    The Driscoll quote at the end is IMO an example of where he strikes out…pun intended.

  6. BrianD says:

    Cyzewski means people won’t generally tell others in the church they are gay or say they have same sex attractions, Dusty.

  7. BrianD says:

    One would expect Jones to support gay relationships.

  8. BrianD says:

    Ahhh. Seems I have been talking to myself again 🙂

  9. Michael says:

    BrianD,

    The idea that you can “target” kids to be spiritual leaders is inane.
    First off, what a child wants to do between 9-18 changes often.
    It should as a child is allowed to grow and explore who they are in the context of godly rearing.
    Second, this is being rolled out in “elite” Christian schools.
    I thought God used the foolish things of the world to confound the wise…

    Don’t mean to be rude but it sounds like a Christian version of Hitler Youth to me.

  10. BrianD says:

    I’m not offended. That whole deal seems bizarre. Lil CEO?

  11. Michael says:

    Part of loving a child is giving them as much space as possible to explore and think and try things in safety.
    The hardest part about being a parent is knowing that sometimes they need to try and fail.

    I want Trey to follow in my footsteps…but if he chooses to be a logger, lawyer, dancer, or doctor, it’s all good with me.

  12. Michael says:

    John Piper preached the sermon of his life tonight…and shredded N.T.Wright and the NPP at the same time.

    http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByConference/35/4574_Did_Jesus_Preach_the_Gospel_of_Evangelicalism/

  13. BrianD says:

    Michael, have you ever done a thread on N.T. Wright or the NPP?

  14. Jessica Menn says:

    The whole idea of targeting children to be leaders is flat out abusive as far as I’m concerned–both to the children who are not chosen to be leaders and to the ones who are.

  15. Michael says:

    I think so…Lutheran was mentioning that I had the other night.

  16. Michael says:

    Jessica,

    I concur.
    Leaders arise naturally…God raises them up in the church.

    None of the apostles would have qualified for the program…

  17. BrianD says:

    “Sir, ma’am, good news! No, not the gospel…the next best thing…your son stands an 87 percent chance of becoming the next Ed Young.”

  18. BrianD says:

    I’ll skim through the feed to see if I can find that article.

  19. BrianD says:

    “Son….I know you want to be the Christian Jay-Z, but Mr. Man tells us you could be the next CREFLO DOLLAR!”

  20. odenfong says:

    I remember a time when “Coming out of the closet” meant “Coming out of the closet.”

  21. jlo says:

    Okay BrainD, I only have time to read one of your links, which one should I read?

  22. BrianD says:

    Cyzewski or Welch if the homosexual topic is particularly relevant to you. The link on grace otherwise.

    But you do know you are required by PP Law to read them all, right? 🙂

  23. Em says:

    with due respect and gratitude for what i’ve benefited from BrianD’s links – if you only have time to read one link – please, please read the Piper link Michael posted… presumptuous of me? yeah, i know it is

  24. jlo says:

    Thanks, BrianD. I do read them all, they always challenge me in one way or another.

  25. jlo says:

    Don’t we all need a little grace this night?

  26. Michael says:

    Em,

    That was some good stuff…the Gospel!

  27. BrianD says:

    hope it helps, jlo.

    John Bird reviews Eric Metaxas’s biography Bonhoeffer.

    http://www.discerningreader.com/book-reviews/bonhoeffer

  28. Michael says:

    BrianD,

    Thanks for that reminder…I want to order that immediately.

  29. victorious says:

    Coming out of the closet to ask for help in the midst of struggle is one thing. Coming out of the closet to gain approval and promote a Jesus of self justification does not remove the darkness.

  30. BrianD says:

    He was on Steve Brown Etc. this past Friday.

  31. Dusty says:

    Victorious, yep…seems they struggled…then gave in…yep…still in the dark…

    could it be they could be entering into an even darker place? If you know the power of the Holy Spirit…and reject Him?

  32. victorious says:

    Dusty, that is a definite possibility , coming out of the closet yet caught up in a darker cloud.

    However, if I had the opportunity for conversation with Knapp I would ask her if in the midst of her struggle to hold on to her faith if she had actually submitted to the Jesus who can unravel and redeem a confused sexuality over time.

  33. Dusty says:

    Victorious, when I read the interview…she sounds like a completely different person from the one I read of in a previous interview…this person seems to have no respect for God at all…so so vastly different even in her lyrics…

  34. Dusty says:

    if you denounce God…is there any turning back to Him?

  35. centorian says:

    “if you denounce God…is there any turning back to Him?”

    Hebrews 10 brings a sobering warning, but I tend to see that as a warning to unbelievers. I ahve been around a few that I believed commited the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and the utter horror of their recognition of their sin and eternal punishment, yet were unable to ask Christ into their lives. It was like watching someone go to hell.

    I have known those who renounced God and came back. I did.

  36. Dusty says:

    have a good night everyone…if you could please remember some of our dear ladies from pp…many of them are weary from the many storms coming against them…remember Nancy, Linnea, Sarah, Sister Christian, Nene and Nomans,

  37. Dusty says:

    renounce…did I say it wrong?

    Cent, you mean more than just ‘back sliding a bit”? Do you mean totally telling Him that he is nothing and you want no part of Him…really diligently deliberately ‘breaking free and breaking the yoke of all that’ (quoting Knapp)?

  38. Dusty says:

    and isn’t it worse for a Christian? after all an unbeliever has an excuse…of sorts…yes? no?

  39. Dusty says:

    sorry to ask and run, cent, but i really need to get to bed…

  40. centorian says:

    do we really break the yoke? are we really capable of that?

  41. pineapple head says:

    just read the piper message…love it!

  42. Bob says:

    One of the areas in this debate is what do we tell our children? From a parents, educator, church leader, and on, in a faith setting how does one say to our growing children, “living in this way is not pleasing or not the design of God.”

    Addressing adults and adult culture is one thing but fulfilling to call to teach and raise a child to become an adult is another. By Okaying to children something which is clearly inappropriate what are we doing for their future faith, following and worship of the creator God?

  43. brian says:

    I tried to look through all my cynical closet spaces to dredge up some evil Christian straw men oops sorry straw people I could trot out. People who know me I hope you see my “humor”. Actually all I can say is Gender / Sexual identity issues are very complex and confusing and like every other “human” endeavor we need a great deal of grace to sail safely through the troubled waters.

  44. Ed Cyzewski says:

    Thanks for the link to my blog post and the list of links.

  45. Dusty says:

    centorian asked, “do we really break the yoke? are we really capable of that?”

    I don’t now…that is why I asked….but if I had to guess, I would say yes given the warning of the unforgivable sin.

  46. Dusty says:

    renounce, denounce….I think both are correct…but denounce seems to fit closer to what she did.

    re·nounced- 1 : to give up, refuse, or resign usually by formal declaration
    2 : to refuse to follow, obey, or recognize any further

    : de·nounced-1 : to pronounce especially publicly to be blameworthy or evil
    2 archaic a : proclaim b : to announce threateningly
    3 : to inform against : accuse
    4 obsolete : portend
    5 : to announce formally the termination of (as a treaty)

  47. Tim says:

    Michael –
    Thanks for that link from Piper. I only had time for a quick scan now, but that’s one I’m going to be going back to later.

  48. Erunner says:

    Welch’s article on experiencing God is spot on. I was one of those who wanted so desperately to feel God in some tangible way. I knew people who seemed to have a connection that for some reason was denied me and I was envious for what they had.

    I concluded these other people were spiritual and I was not. I pleaded with God for an experience. I waited years for something He had chosen not to give me. I despaired over my “carnality.”

    “Feed on the revealed promises of God rather than rely on an experience. Otherwise, life becomes one continual leap from one experiential lily pad to another.”

    I find this is what God is asking of me and I’m learning to be content with where I am at. His silence is not an indictment of any type. In fact it may very well be the better way.

  49. Sarah says:

    Erunner…really good words. I’ve been learning to rest in God’s silence for awhile.

  50. Kevin H says:

    Erunner, reminds me of a Chris Rice song:

    I would take “no” for an answer
    Just to know I heard You speak
    And I’m wonderin’ why I’ve never
    Seen the signs they claim they see
    Are the special revelations
    Meant for everybody but me?
    Maybe I don’t truly know You
    Or maybe I just simply believe

    ‘Cause I can sniff, I can see
    And I can count up pretty high
    But these faculties aren’t getting me
    Any closer to the sky
    But my heart of faith keeps poundin’
    So I know I’m doin’ fine
    But sometimes finding You
    Is just like trying to
    Smell the color nine

    Now I’ve never ‘felt the presence’
    But I know You’re always near
    And I’ve never ‘heard the calling’
    But somehow You’ve led me right here
    So I’m not looking for burning bushes
    Or some divine graffiti to appear
    I’m just beggin’ You for some wisdom
    And I believe You’re puttin’ some here

    ‘Cause I can sniff, I can seek,
    I can count up pretty high
    But these faculties aren’t getting me
    Any closer to the sky
    But my heart of faith keeps poundin’
    So I know I’m doin’ fine
    But sometimes finding You
    Is just like trying to
    Smell the color nine

    Smell the color nine?
    But nine’s not a color
    And even if it were you can’t smell a color
    That’s my point exactly…

  51. Erunner says:

    Sarah, Resting in God’s silence has to be an oxymoron! 🙂

    KevinH, I’d love the title to that song.

    Also, I lost the E-Fest information when the .com went down. Is there any way to retrieve the information? I need to get back on top of this. Also, if somebody to contact Shannon for me as she showed interest but I have no way of contacting her.

  52. Kevin H says:

    Erunner, the title is “Smell the Color Nine”

  53. Erunner says:

    Kevin H, Thanks. I’ll use it on my blog Saturday.

    Just completed the Joe Dallas article and it was powerful. Molested as a child and sexually promiscuous until he met a young girl who took him to CCCM where he heard Pastor Chuck in 1971 and became saved.

    He shared how he tried so hard to escape the sexual temptations bombarding him through the next several years and feeling dirty because of those temptations. After leaving a leadership position in another church he fell into all sorts of sexual sin all over again.

    He never heard a person share their struggles with sexual sin. It was always drugs, violence, etc. that he heard testimony of. So he felt like a total failure and eventually began acting on those impulses.

    It made me think of Lonnie Frisbee and wonder if maybe his struggles were similar? Regardless sexual sin and most especially homosexual sin seemed to be taboo subjects back in those days.

    It also made me think of folks who struggle with depression, etc. as this area seems to be a taboo subject for many.

    Joe was repeatedly molested as a young boy but he didn’t use it as an excuse for his sins as an adult. Anyway it’s part one of a three part series and I’m looking forward to the rest of his story.

    By God’s grace Joe did beat his besetting sin and if anyone here struggles in the area of sexual purity there is hope for you!

  54. Believe says:

    A lot of good input on this thread. Much to consider.

    Chiming in (as usual):

    RE: Jennifer Knapp and homosexuality. A lot of this will be repeat from previous sharing on other threads, but here goes:

    Whether or not there is a “gay” gene or you are born physiologically “homosexual”…there are certainly people “born” with characteristics and desires of (not for) the opposite sex…and desires for sexual relations with the same sex.

    That is a fact and I’ve personally witnessed it first hand in the life of one of my brothers growing up.

    The desire, the tendency, the attraction…being “wired”…whatever you want to call it…I am convinced is not sin. Much like the desire for heterosexual relations is not sin. The desire for food and drink is not sin. The desire for accomplishment is not sin. The desire to make money for provision is not sin. The desire for healing emotionally or physically is not sin. The desire for justice is not sin.

    Here’s where the sin comes in, IMO: when we act sinfully upon those desires or tendencies.

    The Bible is clear as to what is and isn’t sin. The Law was given to us to point out what sin is…clearly…and Jesus clarified for the Pharisees that sin was also a heart and mind matter…not just an overt act issue.

    I am strongly attracted to women. I have a desire for them. That is not sin. When I give myself over to lust…in my mind and in my actions…it is sin.

    When I have a desire to eat and drink…it is not sin. When I eat five times as much as I need and drink a 12-pack…that is sin.

    When I have a desire to earn a living to provide for my family it is not sin. When the pursuit of money to enrich myself and my faith and security is tied to my bank account…that is sin…and when I am greedy about getting more and more money and not giving to others in need…that is sin.

    When I desire justice…it is not sin. When my desire for justice leads to unrighteous anger and the wrong kind of bitterness…it is sin.

    When a person struggles with emotional or physical pain and desires relief…it is not sin. When the person abuses drugs or alcohol (legal or illegal) to get that relief and becomes addicted to the drugs or alcohol…it is sin.

    When a person struggles with stress or anxiety…it is not sin. When the person gives themselves over to rage and abusiveness, it is sin.

    When a person has desires for the same sex…it isn’t sin. When the person gives themselves over to lust for the same sex…in their mind and in their actions…it is sin.

    A person in Church Leadership who is confronted in any of the sins above (or others) and does not repent…should be removed from their position…in the gentle humble and loving manner described in Scripture. If they repent, they should be restored.

    Peter denied Christ three times…and Christ restored him three times…”Peter, feed my sheep. Peter, feed my sheep. Peter, feed my sheep.”

    The critical issue is confession and repentance…not continuing in sin.

    The lay-person at a church…this is a tougher one.

    On one hand, if a fellow Christian has offended you, and they don’t repent, you are to tell it to the church and treat them as an unbeliever…which means they are an opportunity to share Christ. On the other hand, you have 1 Corinthians 5 and Paul says to turn them over to Satan.

    What is fascinating to me after looking at the 1 Cor 5 passage closer is this: the context appears to be that the person caught in one of the most egregious sins imaginable…incest…was handed over to Satan so they could be punished…and their flesh destroyed. However, Paul says, “so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.”

    Am I reading that correctly? This person in the sin of incest was to be handed over to Satan, yet they were still saved?

    If so, this is quite an argument for Eternal Security.

    The passage gets even more interesting to me:

    1 Corinthians 5:9-13

    Wow. We are to judge inside the Body…not outside. Professing Christians within the Body are to be judged when in sin…and you are not to associate with them…you are to “expel the wicked one from among you.”

    What happens when the “judge”…the spiritual leader who makes this determination..is himself in sin and unrepentant?

    Paul makes this determination…he is Paul…an Apostle…a man who is self-described as the “chief of sinners”…so how do we resolve this?

    The only thing that makes sense is that Paul must have been continually repenting of sin and not remaining in it. He recognized his actions as sin when he did them…in his heart and in his deeds…and kept very short accounts with God and others.

    My step-dad often said he was constantly repenting from the rage and abuse…however, he would frame it as his “temper”…and would pray on Saturday night and Sunday morning for forgiveness…and preach on Sunday. Only to return to the sin of rage and abuse Monday through Saturday. I believe he was deceiving himself and others by minimizing the sin and lying about it…not addressing it fully…or he was telling the truth to some close to him…and they didn’t act responsibly in taking action to stop the abuse.

    Lying, while not as destructive to me an my brothers personally, may be the bigger sin here. His lying about the true depth and nature of his sin allowed him to continue in it without church discipline. That he addressed the issue as a “struggle with his temper” gave him enough cover to keep on preaching…but wasn’t so offensive that he would be removed from ministry…but rather could continue on in his sin and get away with it (for a very long time).

    I have wrestled with whether or not my step-dad is saved. I believe now, he probably is. Even the man who committed incest in the Bible appears to have been saved…even though he committed such a heinous sin. Even one so-called benign sin that is not blotted out by the Blood of Christ is enough to damn you. So, one sin…post-saved…no matter how heinous…save the sin of unbelief…is incapable of keeping you from being with God for eternity.

    Wow, that gives me freedom! God loves me and there’s nothing I can do…except reject him in unbelief…which I will not do!…that can separate me from Him eternally.

    I have probably been saved since 10-years-old and just fell…that’s not a good way to describe it…I jumped into serious sin as a late teen and young adult…and then later as an adult…and then God chastised me severely and brought me back to Him. When I was desperate and absolutely crushed…I turned to Him. My belief…my Salvation…my hope in my darkest hour…was Him. My true Father.

    Praise God!

    I am learning that we are to judge within the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 6 )..however, the reason people are compelled to be hypocrites and liars about their sin…is because we don’t judge fairly or with the right Spirit. We eat our own…we ravage them…and we don’t do it with a loving Spirit and a Spirit of humility. Even if the person remains stubbornly unrepentant…it is still no excuse for sin on our part. And, of course, often even when we judge fairly…people just like to sin and stay in it, regardless, and will seek excuses to do so. I used to justify my sin by looking at the example of my step-dad…”well, if he can do that and be a pastor…then my sin is OK…”…not so…boy am I learning that lesson!

    We need to judge…we need to not do it sinfully. We also need to restore after repentance…and we need to forgive 70 times 7.

    Inconsistency in application shouldn’t happen…however, in reality it does. A Leader needs to be gracious to his flock…as gracious as he expects others to be when and if he is found to be in sin.

    I believe it is the inconsistency of Leadership that really tempts people to anger. The unequal application of authority and heavy-handedness on one hand…while demanding grace and forgiveness for one’s own sin, or outright ignoring and denying and lying about one’s own sin…that are real stumbling blocks for many.

    For me, I have the other problem. I judge…but I judge myself just as harshly…if not more. I am having a very difficult time accepting God’s mercy, forgiveness, grace and love in my own life…and battle guilt and shame for my sin. I am angry at my sin…which is good…it helps. The guilt and shame robs me of joy and peace.

    I want to be more gracious to others…and myself. God help me.

  55. Erunner says:

    When I was six years old I was allowed to go to the market by myself. (1960-1961) I often took soda bottles in for the three cents redemption fee and then bought candy. After I gave the cashier the bottles they placed them in a basket near the exit. I figured out that as I left and took some of those same bottles out with me I could come back in and get more money. Eventually I got caught as somebody chased me down in the parking lot.

    It seemed I was wired to be a thief and I did a lot of stealing all through my teens. I got caught stealing in a few interesting situations as I was so brazen about it. I eventually quit stealing but to this day my mind sees situations and old thought patterns show themselves.

    Long ago these thoughts were still tempting but through the years old patterns have gone away. One man’s experience…

  56. Erunner says:

    Fot those interested Jennifer Knapp is appearing on Larry King tonight.

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