Linkathon 6/2, part 1

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  1. Buster says:

    Sweet sounds a little defensive — rightly so, given the recent attacks:

    “I challenge you to find one of my books where I do not make the case for the supremacy and sovereignty of Christ in some fashion.”

  2. james tiberius kirk says:

    “Jesus wants the rose!”

    Not sure how legalism is really at issue; holiness is, and lack of it causes the rose to be damaged, and that MUST BE PREACHED….but it also MUST BE ACCOMPANIED by the true Gospel of grace, salvation and redemption.

    I’m not gonna sit here on my butt and wait for the damaged ones to come to me, to my Sunday church service, I must go into the highways and byways to find THEM….

  3. Jessica Menn says:

    I don’t necessarily agree with Patton’s claim that Christianity is not dependent on its adherents’ character witness. I suppose it depends on what one means by the term “Christianity”.

    I agree that the truth about who Christ is and what He did is not altered by the characters of christians.

    There are aspects of christianity that are not or are only very nominally attached to the person of Christ, and those parts can totally be affected and disproved by the characters of christians.

    If you teach that becoming a christian will change a person for the positive, but then others can look and see that countless christians for countless years have not been changed positively by their christianity then you kind of are disproving your original claim through your character.

  4. Em says:

    Jessica’s observations have me thinking… i am so glad to see the generations coming along still searching for absolutes or perhaps(?) searching for what is real…
    does everyone who chooses Christ as Lord and Savior respond to the same goad? Jesus will make you a better person? Isn’t that ‘selling?’ He will, of course, but somehow something doesn’t sound right…

    just pondering

  5. Buster says:

    The lawyers will have us adding disclaimers, like “Your actual mileage may very.”

  6. Em says:

    just came off listening to Matt Chandler’s “battered rose” … to clarify on my #5 comment … i wasn’t questioning presenting Jesus as Savior and Restorer (not to dwell on it, we are all battered roses, even if we think we’re not)…
    first time to hear Chandler – i like his passion for our Lord’s Person

  7. Another Voice says:

    (I only had 75 minutes to teach).
    Spoken like a true Calvary Chapelite!

    I’m pleased it went so well. I hope your health continues to go just as well.

    And your comment that many things came back to you is a truism I have experienced many times and I think it a good challenge to Viola’s comment about not being able to “remember” anything from institutional church sermons. God remembers it for you, as needed.

  8. Em says:

    Holly, God is so good – your teaching gift seems to be a very strong one (witness your ability of recall)
    IMO very few are gifted with the ability to teach to a group interactively – way different than leading a discussion… what a blessing to read what went on in your life today… can’t help but think that Michael in your life is God’s provision also…
    thank you so much for sharing so honestly

  9. Babylon's Dread says:

    Here is the video announcement of St James Church in Colorado Springs

    Ted and Gayle are indeed starting anew in Colorado Springs.

  10. Em says:

    BD, i love your heart and your view of serving God – i just listened to your link at #12

    that said, i just heard a man say, (loosely quoted) that he doesn’t ever expect to have another mega-church, but something is better than nothing… and i think he spoke his heart and said it thinking it showed his humility, but… his focus still needs a whole lot of prayer IMO 🙁

  11. Buster says:

    So why the need for a a “big-bucks” Hollywood PR campaign?

  12. Em says:

    i know it wouldn’t be good marketing in the corporate world, but with no malice intended, i’d have a higher opinion of the Haggards’ venture if they’d named “their” church Saint Ted’s…

  13. Believe says:

    “Michael has been a HUGE influence also. The man is a walking theology book.”

    He is also open to being wrong…and repents often…

    I’ve learned a lot from him about Theology…I’ve learned more from him by his example…

  14. Another Voice says:

    Your post Bella reminds me of Philippians 4:6,7

    Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

    The key is thanksgiving, in my opinion. As we fearfully, anxiously throw out our petitions to God, we need to be thanking Him in the process. The saying ‘attitude of gratitude’ I think comes from 12-step groups, but really comes from Scripture.

    THEN, that peace that passes all understanding can come.

  15. DA Armstrong says:

    The relevance of the truth of Christ and the character of Christians reminds me of a post I read on another blog. Disclaimer: I don’t endorse the theology of the person I am linking to, but do think this one post may be of relevance.

  16. Another Voice says:

    Bella, I also could give you countless testimonies like yours today where sickness or a cough is persistent, but I have to teach – and it goes away while I teach only to return the MOMENT I finish.

    Neat..isn’t it?

  17. Buster says:


    The argument is invalid. First the Church claims holiness as an attractive hallmark, then it diverts attention to its “coherent teachings” when the holiness fails??? Of what good are those consistent teachings if they’re not producing a change in even its most vociferous advocates?

    That’s why Haggard is deserving of scorn — the very things he spoke against, and that he claimed his church would deliver people from, he fell into himself! Failure is not an attractive feature. Either stop claiming that yours is a better life, or show that it is, without hypocrisy.

    It’s like a diet pill company whose officers are all obese. “Guaranteed to help you lose weight — our product formula hasn’t changed in nearly 2000 years.” What good as it?

    And as for the product not changing, then how is it that Pope Honorius could be anathematized, excommunicated and declared a heretic for “confirm[ing] impious doctrines?”

    In almost any other field (accountancy, medicine, law, transportation, etc.), gross malfeasance results in you being forced to change careers. Once the trust is gone, so are you. But in the religious world we try to that the error demonstrates some even more valuable feature, and that the one in error is even more deserving of his lofty position. We try to capitalize on our own flaws.

    “Join our diet pill program. Be relieved of guilt. Join us for lunch. We love all our partners. Our company is the oldest and most trustworthy. Food alone can never satisfy. Sign up today and get a free Olive Garden gift certificate.”

    It’s a crock.

  18. Babylon's Dread says:

    One thing I have learned from getting to know the Haggards is that trying to make serious judgments about someone from snippets or press releases is completely hopeless. It does not translate we cannot know someone from these bits.

    First, there is no doubt Ted was trying to be self-effacing. However, he is like any person. He will not cap his own success intentionally. St. James church will grow and he will gather people simply because he is very capable and his draw is powerful. Besides the general population can identify with a comeback story and with recovering from a mess.

    Ted will be fine.

  19. Luth says:

    I just don’t get all the scorn toward Ted Haggard.

    I agree with what Dread said — we can’t know someone through Internet stories and press releases. Just not possible.

    Everybody on here seems to assume that he went searching for all the publicity with his new church. I’d wager that the media smelled controversy and showed up.

    I’ve seen both he and Gayle interviewed. They have been humbled by everything they’ve been through. They seem much more compassionate toward the weak, the poor and marginalized, gays, those with addictions, etc. If that’s true, then God bless them.

  20. Another Voice says:

    Before we go too far afield, can we come back and admit that nobody HAS to be interviewed by the press. It is a choice, always.

    Dr. Waltke refused to get the media involved when he came out with his theistic evolution view, because he felt they would damage the church. Good Morning America wanted him on you will recall.

    I am not opining about Haggard. But lets not act like the poor guy couldn’t help but have a PR event.

    Personally, I think the test should be ‘will this (PR) give the enemies of the Lord an excuse to blaspheme MORE THAN my silence would’

    Sometimes a man should have a press conference or whatever…most of the time I tend to think not.

  21. Em says:

    someone wondered about scorn towards Ted Haggard – before God i can say that ‘scorn’ is not the right word for what i’d want to express – no scorn toward him or his family – they are competent and resilient, using their faith in God to move on – does God use big business Christianity? I don’t know … He probably does … i know that big business does …

    dunno… it just looks different from way down here on the ground

  22. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I think that Babs summed it up nicely – “St. James church will grow and he will gather people simply because he is very capable and his draw is powerful.”

    Oh if only Jesus was the draw.

  23. Em says:

    BD, FWIW i’m agreeing with every word of your #24

    if i’d been his advisor, i would have advised against calling his church St. James (Cathedral is what comes to mind) and what is wrong with Saint Ted’s? He is and it is… there’s some doctrine there… 🙂

  24. Another Voice says: saw that too?

  25. Em says:

    yes, St James is a beautiful name for a church – a grand name

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