Yes, I know Ted Haggard is making some “major announcement” today.
Ask me if I care.
The major announcement here is that Jeff and the kids are losing Karen, that a lot of my readers are mourning their own losses and I can’t look at my own web site right now without breaking down.
I’m happy Ted’s endless self promotion and his wife’s faith has enabled him to find a place in the spotlight again.
Jesus is with our suffering, sorrowing, friends today and that’s where my head and my heart are right now.
Time will tell if he’s with Ted…
I agree with you. Our focus should be with those who are mourning. What a painful time in our friends lives but also what a wonderful Savior we follow. He will be there with Jeff and Karen as well as the kids just like He will be there for those of us who call on His precious Name!
We’re still praying here. Is there any news?
I haven’t heard anything yet this morning.., thanks for hearing me, Phil.
sorry for bringing this up – I thought you would be interested. I misjudged the timing.
and so we pray and our Lord stores up the tears as precious
Don’t feel bad at all, a lot of folks have been interested in this.
I’ve watched the whole process, predicted the outcome, and now we’re there.
I’m just at the point where I don’t think it matters a hell of a lot in the kingdom of God what some religious celebrity is doing…and it matters more than we’ll ever know this side of eternity what the anonymous, faithful servants are doing.
Continuing to pray for the Stewarts. My heart is heavy for all in mourning. Praying that the father draws close.
Dear father please comfort your children…..
I have two dear friends in my church who went to heaven this week. That is what I call news! Congratulations to Kevin and to Julie. For both of them the pain of their respective diseases is over. Condolences to their families, and to the rest of us. If Ted’s “news” tops that, let me know.
Dave was on my heart when I wrote this…because I know that he was there helping his friends pack for home.
May God bless him and those who work like him in the ministry of the pastor.
Right on Dave Rolph!
I don’t normally offer “Amen” posts, even when I am saying so in my heart – but AMEN!!
Amen Pastor Dave…and please keep sharing your stories (as you feel led)…many need to see a good example…not to promote you…but to promote Jesus working in a pastor’s life.
A lot of the time, the good guys don’t share specific examples…because they’re cautious against pride and drawing attention to one’s self…
I am certain to be criticized for this but as a Christian and facing the possibility of death, while heaven is my ultimate destiny, I find the following statement rather insincere;
“I have two dear friends in my church who went to heaven this week… Congratulations to Kevin and to Julie. For both of them the pain of their respective diseases is over.”
I know Dave didn’t mean it that way…He is a good man…I guess I get bothered with statements that say or even insinuate “Well if you die at least you’ll be with Jesus”. I was at a funeral once where the pastor tried to offer condolences to the family by saying said “Jesus needed your dad so he took him to heaven” I know he didn’t mean any harm but I could just read the faces of the surviving children “Jesus needed my dad!? Why does He need anything…I need my dad”
I dunno, maybe I am being picky and I certainly don;t want to pick a fight with Dave…I respect him and I’d lose…I will one day be with the Lord that is true, but I have kids and a wife here right now that need me. And rather than be excused from pain, I would rather suffer pain and be with them…at least for now.
Hope Im not being a jerk
Or being super unspiritual! I will be with the Lord one day and that will be great. and I look forward to it but not before my time. Im gonna drag my feet all the way
It is interesting why Haggard doesn’t just go along privately about his business. Why the need for all the fanfare?
Pastor Steve…I just think you are provided the balance to a very difficult issue for we humans…death.
Pastor Dave is expressing a part of the issue…and you are expressing a part of the issue…there is no “one” correct answer on this one, IMO.
…and your thoughts on this issue didn’t come across bad, IMO…just honest…and human.
Steve, is it as simple as the difference between Dave speaking to this community, words he likely did not say to the family – as opposed to how insensitive the pastor in your example chose to be?
I know that in times of death I think, and even say to some (like my wife) words that I would NEVER say to the grieving family.
“Im gonna drag my feet all the way”
Keep hopping Hoppy…your wife and kids need you as long as the Lord wills…
Job’s friends were doing well until they opened their mouths. There is much we don’t understand, things that we try to address in hope of bringing clarity only to muddy the water even more.
I had a restless night last night. I listened to my wife groan in pain while still being asleep. I spent much time praying for the Stewarts. It doesn’t make sense and I find no other course of action other than to sit quietly on the ash heap with the Stewarts.
Sometimes people are ready to go home…sometimes they desire to rest with their Savior after a long season of pain here.
For them death is a blessed release from this world…and we celebrate their arrival home and whole.
thinking about death from what i’ve seen so far… when you cross a certain line and you’re looking at it face to face and imminent it makes life here and us pontificators real irrelevant… i know there are death-bed conversions, but there is that line… no words, except “i love you,” have any meaning IMO
I think that I am more on Steve’s side. Death is the enemy and was never in God’s plan and cannot be looked at any other way.
I HATE death! God never intended his creation to experience it. Unfortunately, thanks to Adam, we all must pass through it. I groan at the thought of death, I don’t want to die. However, thank God for Jesus! He has conquered death & the grave and has the keys to both of them. We see not all things under his feet yet… but, we see Jesus…
MLD, amen except, 😉
it was in His **plan** if He is in charge of everything, wasn’t it? He didn’t say to Adam, ‘don’t disobey Me and eat that fruit because if you do you’ll upset My plan …
it’s just not His **goal** … or something like that….
Paul desired to depart (die) – but since there were those who needed him, he knew the Lord wanted him to stick around. But he DESIRED death first and foremost.
And yes, death is the enemy – but death is NOW mocked by Paul. Paul spits in the face of death in the Scripture “O death, where is thy sting! O grave, where is thy victory’
No, a funeral should not be a party. We mourn, but NOT as those others who have no hope!
THAT is the message we have. Job’s friends had screwed up theology.
We have the right theology, we just need to be lead in the times we share – no different thn sharing any of God’s truth.
And as far as sharing the truth, we need to share ALL the truth, which includes the blessed promises of God’s provision and protection of those loved ones left behind. God is the Provider for my family, whether He uses me to do so, or has another channel in mind someday.
To say that death was never in God’s plan is a mistake when talking about the One who was crucified before the foundation of the world. An enemy – yes. Part of His plan – Yes.
screwed up theology wasn’t the real problem with Job’s counselors. Let’s start with insensitivity and legalism among other things. and their understanding of doctrine wasn’t so much bad as it was unbalanced. I hope that when I go through the valley of death again with another loved one that people will have the sense to let their words be few.
Steve you are not being a jerk to want to live….if this is ‘picking a fight’ it is not one you would lose…no matter who it was with. We all want to be with Jesus…that does not mean it is wrong to want to be with those we love deeply.
sorry AV. I probably shouldn’t have responded to you as I feel this thread is touching the borders on insensitivity as we are talking about death when a family is about to lose a loved one…. somehow it just doesn’t feel right.
I’m out for a while.
Centy, I am with you. I mean no insensitivity to Steve or anyone else. The theology can wait.
If interested the topic can begin afresh in Open Blogging in a few days.
Praying for you Steve……
but we still mourn, and still feel the pain of loss….it is ok, and a God given emotion.
In fact…sadly some don’t have the hope of seeing their loved one in heaven…so their grief has more pain…a different pain…
feeling pain of loss, feeling or expressing pain, anguish, despair…none of these emotions are wrong…nor do they make you any less of a Christian…
Centy, I think the raw emotions displayed here regarding the matter are things that we all struggle with as family members, friends, associates and even individually for those who are facing the imminence of death.
My heart goes out to Jeff and his family as well.
By now Ted has likely announced that he is starting St James Church in CS… I believe it will begin this Sunday.
What Ted is doing is in no way relevant to the sorrow people are having in the blog family and we convolute things when we mix them this way.
We all stand with one another in the sorrows and losses and in prayers for healing and power to overcome suffering.
These things should not be mixed as if they are related when they are not. There is a lot of suffering, there will be more. We need each other in every circumstance. We are called to weep with one another and to rejoice with one another and we have capacity and opportunity for both in this life. Peace to all who grieve. Peace to those who suffer. Peace to each of you.
Thanks for hearing me out on this
I think AV’s first line in #25 is a “4 bagger”: Paul desired to depart (die) – but since there were those who needed him, he knew the Lord wanted him to stick around.
Here’s the relevance or lack of such.
I received a number of emails wondering if I was going to comment on Haggards announcement.
We here are just a microcosm of the church as a whole which means that this suffering is not unique to us but shared all over the Body.
I’m finding it harder and harder to care what celebrities are doing in the face of the needs and pain and so I wrote what I wrote.
Amen, Brother Steve. I completely know what you write of. Having your mortality shoved in your face really puts things in a whole different light, for sure. All of the sudden, all those times when I’d spoken those trite ‘christian’ statements (‘he/she is with the Lord now’) came back to me and made me feel like a real jerk.
A life threatening illness is a sobering event to say the least. I found myself yelling to the Universe “I WANT TO LIVE!!”. I really had to ask myself “Do I really believe this stuff now that Eternity is knocking on my door?” My family and friends need me, want me, would be crushed by my passing. My grandchildren need me. My death would rock their little world if the Jesus Gramma tells them about ‘took her Home”. They wouldn’t understand. Yes, Gramma does love Jesus and has eternal life, but Gramma wants to stick around to hug you, read stories to you and try to set an example of godliness for you and be a part of your daily life (like Nancy Tidy’s mom).
Michael, you are so right, time will tell with Ted. Frankly, I wish them well. God is the Judge, not me. His ways are so freakin’ different than mine, that the older I get, the less I understand about Him and His ways. I’m just tryin to put one foot in front of the other each day that God allows me to wake up in the morning.
Bro Steve. We’re praying for you…….. and for the Stewarts. Heartbreaking.
You said it all and said it well. 😉
BTW, I just read the novel The Poisonwood Bible. I never read novels (read the Shack, first novel in 30 years). I am quite shaken by it, frankly. It’s the story of a missionary family who go to The Congo in 1959….. Very well written, sadly so very true. Really touched my heart. I find myself praying for the fictional characters because I know they represent the millions of people who have seen the Gospel twisted by churchy folk. It was awfully close to home for me….. I recommend the book.
Anyhoo Michael….Amen.. Who cares what the ‘celebrity’ ‘christians’ are doing. God sees, God will judge everyone in Righteousness. I care about how I’m doing in daily life because I will someday stand before that Judge.
and here is the announcement.
I just watched the video of Haggard’s announcement and found myself being quite moved by what he had to say. Although I don’t feel that there needed to be a major press release about the announcement, I identified with what he was saying. My sin was different, but it still ended my ministry. I understand the longing to return. For Haggard, it has been over three years, for me almost 20.
I would also agree with what Haggard had to say about helping those who are broken in ways that he never was able to before. While I would never want anyone to go down the road I chose to minister more effectively, the fact is that I can minister in ways that I never could before. Brokenness understands brokenness.
I also understand the frustration of some in the PP family regarding the PR media campaign, etc…but I choose to give TH the benefit of the doubt on this one…the guy has been seriously humbled…and he confessed and repented and reconciled his family…while I believe in pastoral accountability and confession and repentance…I also believe in second chances and restoration…
There’s got to be a balance in there somewhere…
Bob S…just want you to know that your example has been beneficial and edifying to me…I appreciate you.
Thanks for your words. Much has changed in the 20 years since your fall. The way back is much more open for those who humble themselves…
If I could actually call a press conference and have them show up… I would. Ted Haggard is still news and he is wise to take advantage of the opportunity. Besides none of us will ever understand the relationship of the Haggards to the media because it was actually the media that initiated the actual restoration. The church was only and completely punitive. The press would not let the story go… Alexandra Pelosi (HBO), Larry King(CNN) and Oprah brought the man back. The rest of us just blathered our opinions. So now he is back.
May God give the story a happy ending. One befitting redemption in Jesus.
Sorry I hit and ran this morning. It was just a really busy day, and I only just now got to read Steve’s post, picking a fight with me, 😉 and everyone else weighing in on one side or the other.
I was not playing spiritual games, nor was I being insensitive. I am not one given to cliches and trite simplicities. I have watched many people die, and dealt with the agony of the survivors, and I wouldn’t have said what I said in most of the cases. But in these two cases, what I said was literally true. In both cases, each saint really wanted to go be with the Lord, and their loved ones wanted them to go be with the Lord. Completely and totally, with no reservation. There is no one close to either of them that would feel any different. Intense suffering for a prolonged period of time sometimes does that, combined with simple dying grace when the Lord is clearly calling someone home. If you haven’t witnessed it you wouldn’t know. But it is real, and I have seen it quite a few times. I have also seen many more people who took the Dylan Thomas approach to “Do not go gentle into that good night” and that is legitimate as well. Personally, I am good to go at any time. But I wouldn’t make that out as the only spiritual position. Obviously every suicide vicitm also wants to go so that in itself isn’t laudable.
This is a bit of a strange thread. Is Ted Haggard killing Christians? I must have missed that story. 🙂
Wasn’t it just a couple months ago when TH was saying that he isn’t starting a church, and has no plans to start a church? A miracle has happened!! 😉
Sorry for the sarcasm. Long week.
Michael, Rolph is hogging up all the bandwidth here 🙂
Hey Scott and Paigemom. Just talking to myself. 🙂
If a lawyer, judge, or doctor are guilty of gross malpractice will they not lose their right to practice? Why is it any different in the pulpit?
Haggard wasn’t just a motivational speaker on tour or a CEO of a charity…he was a proclaimer of the Gospel and teacher of the Scripture. Therefore, there are certain responsiblities that come along with that office. Even a secular world knows that. If a judge is guilty of 1st degree theft, they will never let him behind the gavel again. Yet we let Swaggart and Haggard, et al, behind the pulpit again. I don’t agree with it.
I gave Ted the benefit of the doubt that he had learned or was willing to go down a new pathway of learning where service to the Lord and growing up to be like the Lord was enough.
But alas the crowds need the testimony of Ted instead of individual people gaining the simple but available witness of meager disciples; and he is willing to diminish the value of his riches in Christ in order to purchase the opportunity for a mass marketed testimony.
Pastor Dave…you’re a thread hog…[says pot to kettle…”pot” meaning the kind you put on a stove… 🙂 ]
i go thru periods of posting lots of comments…
i think it’s what you call “fill” … 😆
BD…I agree with you on this one.
The cynical side of me would say it’s all about Ted and building another kingdom (little k) for himself…and that the media blitz is to promote him…there are pastors where that is the case.
…however, in the interaction with him…and reading more of the story…and his wife’s story…I believe Ted’s heart is right (only God knows…but that’s my gut on this one)…and that he’s doing what God has called him to do…and is using his second chance and story of confession, repentance, forgiveness, reconciliation…and now restoration…to reach an audience he NEVER would have reached when he was an Institutional Evangelical and “holier than thou”…
His humbling has made him human…and the media is drawn to him and his story. I see it as an opportunity he’s been given…and a responsibility for him to use it to spread the Gospel.
He can’t call sin not sin…but he can show the example of Jesus our Christ…who was the friend of sinners…and He who came to seek and save the lost…
There is no hierarchy of sin…though pride is cited as the devil’s great sin…and Ted has an opportunity to welcome sinners…all of us in our broad variety of sinfulness…and point us to Jesus.
Time will tell…and hopefully he’s accountable to some guys like you.
Federal and State laws provide the consequences for judges, doctors, and lawyers that commit malpractice. Grace is not a factor. Fortunately, for all of us, grace is a factor with God. Does God’s Law prohibit a pastor who has failed from returning to the pulpit? I have heard and listened to both sides of that argument for 15 years. I have come to the conclusion that God’s grace is great enough to allow for restoration to the pulpit. Yes, it is taken advantage of, but tell me what isn’t?
And why is it always the sins of people like myself and Haggard that seem to garner all the attention and rebuke? Understand, I make that statement making no excuses for my own behavior. I should have been rebuked, I should have stepped down (Which I did). What about the power hungry, controlling, prideful pastors? They seem to always get the call to speak at the conferences.
I’ve been pretty transparent on this blog. Never have I made any excuses for the sin that took me down. I get calmed down, and then someone comes along making the judgmental “Never” statement! I’m grateful that God has not judged me that way the government judges a failed lawyer! Because if He did, I would be capital punishment for us all.
Come to Efest this Saturday and we can discuss this some more. I’m not intimidating like Rolph. 🙂
“Grace is not a factor.”
I agree Bob restoration should always be up to God, and it is clear when God restores and not someone else. I see two churches in america, the church of Jesus and the Jesus Inc. They get mixed up alot but are quite different. I have seen pastors fall, and they just fade away and I asked what happened. After I got over the Lazar beam eyes burned my skin off I learned not to do that.
As to your second that being power hungry, prideful, pastors remaining? I think people do not see them as sin, but as badges of Honor. It is actually quite sad.
“Obviously every suicide vicitm also wants to go so that in itself isn’t laudable.”
i am not sure that it is correct to say every suicide victim wants to die…they just want to end the pain…and can think of no better way out….no better way to take away the pain…when all else has failed…anyway…it is not always about dying.
The sad thing in all this is the Pastor that took over for Ted, the leadership, staff and people that attend New Life church are hurt all over again. They now have a constant reminder of how much Ted never really cared about them. This new thing that Ted is doing may not turn out to be anything but just doing it and doing it publicly like he did is incredibility hurtful to a lot of people at New Life. I don’t attend New Life but I have lived through this process and it is like having a knife put right back into a wound that is trying to heal. That is the story! Ted this or Ted that? Who cares! Think about the thousands at New Life and the devastated leadership behind Ted’s train wreck of a ministry.
Starting a church in Colorado Springs shows that Ted either doesn’t realize how painful this is to New Life or that He doesn’t really care. Either way it is wrong, wrong, wrong!
Been there Done that,
That is a pretty bad diagnosis of the situation …. the people who harmed NLC the most were the ones that mangled the ‘restoration,’ kept the people in the dark about the real plans for Ted and his family, and turned NLC into an acquisition for a whole new group of people from outside the church.
Ted starting a new church in CS is the most open and honest thing that has happened in this mess since it began.
I do not deny that you or the people have hurts, genuine hurts, but I deny that Ted beginning a new church is the source of those hurts. For you to call this “a constant reminder of how much Ted never really cared about them,” is evidence to me that you never really knew the man at all.
I won’t get into it with you BTDT … but we disagree and I do not allow that your position should go unchallenged.
BTDT…I could see your beef if Ted was stubbornly unrepentant and was lying about something…however, he came clean, repented, took his medicine and humbled himself.
The guy lost it all from a ministry perspective…except his wife and family.
Am I missing something here? What else is there?
Bob S…and Brian…big amens.
Brian, your Jesus vs. Jesus, Inc. comment…that’s going on the PP wall (for me).
The more I think about the situation the more very unhappy I am with it.
Probably would be a good idea to sleep on it before I speak.
When I sleep on something it usually upsets me more. 😉
Too easy for me to shoot from the hip tonight…
steveo- never thought I’d be saying this…but No, you are not being a jerk.
You are free to say anything you’re thinking or feeling regardless of who you’re disagreeing with.
except me 😉
You know, if Ted had not given his word to the church leaders that he would not start a church, then I would be open-minded about this new work he is starting. But, the fact that in starting this church his ‘yes’ is not ‘yes’ and his ‘no’ is not ‘no’ makes me detest what he is doing. Even if the church did things that were wrong and not loving towards him, I do not think any of this gives him the right to display to the world that he is not a man of his word. How can you start off a work of God based upon a lie? I don’t get it. He should move somewhere else and get going.
I know why he is doing this in CS, and that is because he already has a following. But, since when is God’s leading to be based upon opportunism and breaking your word? I hope the best for him, but I don’t respect him…
‘Brokenness understands brokenness.’
No words have been ever more truly spoken, sir. God bless you. Your example here has been of honor to Christ and His people.
“Too easy for me to shoot from the hip tonight…”
seeing the Haggard kids line up behind mom and dad at that press conference (formula, i know) presents a very hopeful scene … he’d better be on the up and up because kids of celebrities tend to write ‘tell all’ books 😉
it would be hard to give up and go somewhere else when you’re settled in such a beautiful spot… what will be, will be – God, Himself, never loses or has a bad day – praying for enough ‘fish’ to round – for all the nets to fill to bursting there…
Pastor blows up church and the church gets blaimed for not restoring him properly. And this makes it right for him to open a church up the street. Classic! Now that is something to Dred!
As for the blaming … I was merely refuting a jaded version of the story. If you want the truth call Ted Haggard up… he is not hiding… express your anger… he is not afraid… he is listed in the phone book. You can easily find answers if you have honest questions.
I do not wish to argue with you. I have done enough of that. But BTHT..my name is Alan Hawkins… reach me at email@example.com and as I said Ted is easy to find. He is running from no one. So instead of fussing with each other direct conversation is easily possible.
You have nothing to dread… good people of good will never do.
As for your questions the same issue pertains. Ted will talk to anyone. He does not claim to have acted perfectly in any of this. The ‘word’ you refer to was actually contracts that were both illegal and simply no way for believers to treat one another. They were removed. A contract once cancelled is not binding. A covenant would be a different matter and would have more to do with ‘giving your word.’ When people give their word no contract is necessary…
Again, your concerns are not hard to have addressed. This is not a power struggle. Does Ted have a following as you say? Perhaps, that remains to be seen. But his claim is that CS is the domain of his call from the LORD. I cannot speak to that other than to refer you to Ted and Gayle. They live in the open for people to openly see them. As he has announced an open fellowship …you are free to go and have your questions addressed.
Let’s not make this harder than it is. And as believers let’s not complicate it with unfounded accusations based on our opinions… Especially when dialogue is invited and welcomed.
no dog in this fight…… loved Ted in “Jesus Camp”.
there were some things he said in his statement that caused me concern. and I do question the wisdom of planting in the same town he fell. other than that, umm, don’t really care, he’s not my cup of tea anyway.
He’s your bud so you’re sticking up for him, I understand that. But, no matter how you spin this thing, Ted Haggard is not a man of his word. He made a promise, no matter how it was made, and he is not willing to keep it. He knows he can’t grow a mega church as easily outside of CS, so he is willing to compromise his character to reach his goal…
How do you know Ted wants to grow a mega church?
One other thing if I may? If Ted wanted to Pastor a LARGE church he would have already done so as I’m quite certain he was offered opportunities over the last 3.5 years yet he didn’t take any of them. If Ted is “all about Ted” as some suggest, then why didn’t he do that rather then start all over from scratch like he’s doing now?
I never pegged you as one who would resort to Christian cliche. Don’t think you were doing that on your post from yesterday. But I felt an impulse (Satan?) to respond to your comments in the way that I did. I meant no diss of you
My cancer is in my bladder and the lining of my left kidney. So far the bladder cancer is grade one. We are hoping the biopsy scheduled June 23rd will come back with the same result
You’re not calling me out for being a jerk just means you are having mercy on the cancer patient 🙂
I would like to comment about Ted Haggert. I feel conned by him and all those media types who self promote their calls from God.
This just doesn’t pass the smell test.
I appreciate your prayer and please do pray that God heals me but for the record; I don’t think I am gonna be dying soon. But I still need prayer support. My whole perspective could change after the biopsy on the 23rd. I may be asking some of my pastor friends to be polishing up their John 14 message
Good points Phil…
Phil…. do you know if in fact Ted was offered any mega churches?
Bella – you are reading a classic, as are so many of Murray’s books. Drink deep.
>>If Ted is “all about Ted” as some suggest, then why didn’t he do that rather then start all over from scratch like he’s doing now?
Starting a church in the same town he already pastored in and has a following is not starting from scratch. You’re naive and illogical.
Not sure but I do know people were inquiring. Just speculating I guess.
Thanks for the compliment :-). I guess I would rather be “naive” and “illogical” on the side of grace then err on the side of condemnation.
This whole issue speaks to the current mentality and culture of Christendom rather than Ted H. Integrity matters little in our culture. Clinto told us that when he said he “compartmentalized” his life. His personal integrity, which was in question during the election, didn’t matter. He could compartmentalize his life. To those voting, they liked him and set the integrity issue aside. He was merely a reflection of the face of the culture at the time
Haggard is that to a certain extent to. He is merely a reflection of the current state of the Christian culture. So get angry and be frustrated at him…the the real burden of responsibility is upon those who will attend his church…and they will…and they will in droves…many like the excitement…they’ll take it over the scriptures any day
We pastor types must MUST preach the intended meaning of scripture and live to the best of our abilities, lives consistent with the teaching of Christ. According to Christ the first characteristic of the indwelling Spirit (which we have to have to be truly born again) is obedience! If you love me obey my commandments (Jhn 14) We need to hold fast on this and not give in.
We need pastors who are devoted to Christ, the teaching of the scriptures and devoted to their people. Too many guys opt instead to hit the “circuit” instead of shepherding their flock.
Now more than ever we need pastors to be examples and teachers and flock tenders
I sure hope Clinto and Haggard do not belong in the same sentence. 😯
My comment yesterday (#39) was not so much in support of Haggard as it was supportive of the grace of God which CAN allow a person who falls to get up again. He has done that with me whether anyone likes it or not. (sorry if that sounds sarcastic)
If we truly repent, God will remember that sin no more. People will always remember. I have a difficult time with the balancing of what eliminates a man from ministry. God knows how I eliminated myself for years. I do that know longer.
Wise and sensible you are!
We need pastors who are devoted to Christ, the teaching of the scriptures and devoted to their people. Too many guys opt instead to hit the “circuit” instead of shepherding their flock.
My second ‘Amen’ post in as many days to Steve Hopkins
“We need pastors who are devoted to Christ, the teaching of the scriptures and devoted to their people. Too many guys opt instead to hit the “circuit” instead of shepherding their flock.
Now more than ever we need pastors to be examples and teachers and flock tenders.”
I echo AV’s Amen!
I think you’ve “done your time,” and the humility and care for others you’ve shown here is evidence that you’re qualified to return to ministry. I hope you get to fulfill that potential.
Erroring on the side of grace is one thing, but naive + illogical = foolish. Ted has proven himself to be an opportunist whose word means nothing, you should not error on the side of grace when it comes to interpreting such a thing. Ted’s actions have spoken loud and clear.
SMW said, “Starting a church in the same town he already pastored in and has a following is not starting from scratch. You’re naive and illogical.”
Naive, maybe…we don’t know Ted’s heart…but are erring on the side of grace on this one (some of us)…and time will tell.
Illogical? You’re simply wrong.
It is your statement that is reasonably illogical.
Starting a church in one’s hometown is not necessarily a disqualifier for “starting from scratch”…
Would you define a businessman who goes through a BK and then has to rebuild and start over…in his own town…”starting from scratch?” Most reasonable people would.
Would you define a pro athlete who sustained a serious injury…and had to go through extensive rehab to regain his athleticism and position…on the same team…”starting from scratch?” Most reasonable people would.
Would you define a guy like Henry Blodgett…infamous Tech Bubble analyst who said Yahoo would go to $400 a share…then lost all his credibility when the Bubble burst…then he had to start over…in the Tech Industry…the same “neighborhood” if you will…and rebuild his reputation over years of good analysis… Most reasonable people would call that “starting from scratch.”
I can go on and on. The fact that TH is starting over in the geographic area of his home is not a disqualifier for most reasonable people saying he is “starting from scratch”…and is not an illogical statement.
Please just say you don’t like TH and don’t trust him…and that nothing he does from here on out…save an angel appearing to you and telling you to give him a second chance…will sway your opinion.
You’ll lose the logical/illogical argument on this one…
If you apply man’s logic to Scripture…and connect the doctrines of reaping and sowing, pastoral accountability, public confrontation, confession, repentance, reconciliation and restoration…TH’s story is entirely logical.
It is his “heart” you are questioning…and you cannot quantify that using man’s logos (reason). That is a Spiritual matter…and only God knows.
Time will give us some clues…
Bella – Paul wouldn’t need Murray’s book. You and I do. 🙂
MB said, “Me too, Bob. If every pastor was permanently disqualified for screwing up, we’d have none left. 🙂 ”
That’s the problem…many hide sin because they’re afraid that they must be “perfect” in order to keep up the facade of Prophet-ship.
More transparency and more accountability…and some sort of reconciliation and restoration process…AFTER confession and repentance and setting things “right”…would help this negative dynamic.
Here are my thoughts about starting a church where you fell. Haggard essentially built the foundation (well, you could say Jesus did, but go with me for a second) but he forfeited it when he fell. I’ve seen similar things happen in the past and they create unneeded difficulty. Whether he was treated fairly or not by his former church is beside the point. It is no longer his foundation to build upon. There will always be an undercurrent of adversity by his presence and establishment not only of the new church, but Haggard’s platform and position within the community. Better for him to go somewhere else. He is a big name, he will attract a lot of people, some will attend no doubt just to prove to themselves that they are in fact gracious. Grace and truth must be held in context to each other.
Pastor Centy, thanks for sharing that perspective…I’ll be considering that…those are valid concerns…
What if Haggard publically said “Look, I know I am in the same town and that is controversial to some. So I am asking that none of you who are former parishioners and have been in new church homes these last 3 years come to our new fellowship. We love you and encourage you to continue to worship where the Lord brought you after my fall .I do not want to hurt other fellowships or be accused of stealing sheep. We will focus on the lost and those without a church home. God Bless You”
Holding my breath starts…….now
I’m not big on the whole territorial thing, when it comes to churches. I understand the principle for the business world. But the people in my church aren’t my customers. I want them to be free to come and go as they please. If they would rather be somewhere else then I want them somewhere else. Anyone who wants Ted Haggard to be their pastor deserves to have Ted Haggard as their pastor. 😉
No Hopping Along…I just, for once, didn’t think you were being a jerk.
Shocking! but true…