Linkathon 6/2, part 2
Michael Spencer’s book, Mere Churchianity, is available now as a Kindle ebook download from Amazon and as a nook ebook download from Barnes & Noble; the paper version is due on June 15.
Michael Horton reviews N.T. Wright’s After You Believe.
Billy Graham believes he has one more sermon in him (HT: Todd Rhoades)
Streaming video of Paul Tripp’s recent Q&A at the Desiring God website.
Orthodox Father Ernesto Obregon – who was also one of the Liturgical Gangstas at Internet Monk – on Arizona’s immigration law.
Helpful things Justin Buzzard found to discern God’s will from Martyn Lloyd-Jones.
Facebook depresses John Saddington.
Two critical reviews of Jesus Manifesto from Jason Clark and David Wayne.
The 100-plus blogs that Tony Morgan follows; this list may be helpful to you.
Arizona’s immigration law? If it is used intelligently should be tolerated by all… most law enforcement in most areas are doing the best they can and better than most other areas of the world…
long years ago, my very white, very straight arrow uncle was picked up by the police… he made the mistake of pulling his pants on and going out for a walk to think through a problem in the wee small hours of the morning with no I.D. on him. His walk was cut short and he came home in a police car – the doorbell rang at about 3 in the morning… “can you identify this man? he says he’s visiting with you.” It was a quieter time in this country and an easier solution, yes… but today can’t we just make sure that in the end, these needed laws produce safety and justice? – be patient with some tough times we’re in ? IMO
We need to enforce our Immigration Law or change it.
The moral hazard that enforcing some laws, while not enforcing other laws sends an inconsistent and bad message. It corrodes our societal construct of justice and fairness and equal protection under the law.
The Immigration Laws in the U.S. are extremely lax…as compared to Mexico.
The real problem, IMO, is that the Mexican Government is corrupt and the country…so full of natural resources and productive workers…is held hostage by the Drug Cartels and Gangs.
Purge the country of the corruption…set up a stable government…and you’ll have jobs for the people there…and the poor desperate Mexican father who is looking to provide a better life for his family…can stay in his homeland and provide for them.
My heart goes out to the people who come to the U.S. because of the desperate situation in Mexico…however, we are a nation of laws…and to make an exception for them from a national legal perspective…is to show favoritism and in contrast show prejudice to the people who must go through the legal process to gain citizenship (like my grandma and her entire family…and many people I know).
The other reality to consider…many “illegals” are not the hard-working father looking for a better life for his family…many illegals are part of the Drug Cartels and are criminals operating inside our country…trafficking arms and drugs…murdering and kidnapping…wreaking havoc…and then slipping back across the border when they want to evade justice.
This has to stop.
The Mexican Drug Cartels do operate on our soil…I have first-hand information from people involved on the front lines of the drug war…some of the stories make a Hollywood movie look tame.
http://adrianwarnock.com/2010/06/the-second-matt-chandler-300-leaders-session/
On the other hand…
http://thetyee.ca/Books/2010/05/27/MurderCity/
“There are five hundred to nine hundred street gangs now of armed, murderous, unschooled and unemployed young people. The drug industry is thriving—even the D.E.A. admits drugs have never been cheaper, of higher quality, or more widespread in the U.S. Nothing can immediately roll back the violence, because it is now part of the fabric of the city, a place where in two years twenty-five per cent of the houses have been abandoned, forty per cent of the business shuttered, at least a hundred thousand jobs lost, and where a hundred and four thousand people have fled. Three things would over time lower the slaughter of people in Juárez and all over Mexico: legalize drugs, rework NAFTA so it provides a living wage, protect workers from toxic materials, protect unions, and cease giving the Mexican army half a billion dollars a year: it is the largest criminal group in Mexico and a growing player in the drug industry.”
“I’ll make this simple: there are four hundred foreign, mainly American, factories in Juárez, they pay at best seventy-five dollars a week, the cost of living in Juárez is about ninety per cent of what it would be on the U.S. side of the border. In addition to this obvious point—that the factories play slave wages and have a turnover on average of one hundred to two hundred per cent a year—the city has now had at least two generations of kids raised pretty much on their own as their parents work five and a half days a week in the factories. It was primed to explode. ”
So we destroy the Mexican family farm through NAFTA, subject them to slave wages in our factories, consume the drugs they produce, then want them to stay put and starve or be murdered.
In the month of May 253 people were murdered in Juarez alone.
The total for the year through May 31 is 1,088.
Today the total stands at 1092.
“On June 1, four people were killed in Juarez, including a 3 yr old girl traveling in a
car with her father. It is worth a look at the Hernandez family members mourning the death of the child near their house and the car that she was riding in, a 1988 Chevy station wagon. Says that the man and his daughter were driving to buy tortillas. ”
Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2010/05/the-exchange-charles-bowden-on-jurez-murder-city.html#ixzz0plG7CWuu
Here’s a story of what happens when you try to do it “right”
http://motherjones.com/politics/2009/07/we-bring-fear
Michael…even more reason to address the real problem…the Drug Cartels and the corrupt Mexican government.
Our non-enforcement of our Nation’s Immigration Laws doesn’t stop the root cause of the problem…it doesn’t cut out the cancer…it only provides a little relief in some areas for the symptoms…while contributing to larger problems.
Juarez is a tragedy…and we should do something about it…”Love your neighbor”…to me, in a practical way…means we send in troops and cut out the cancer.
Only…not Vietnam-style…go in WWII style…Old Testament style. We break stuff and kill people and crush the Cartels…no mercy.
Unfortunately, we lack the political will in this country to fight evil. We police it and cut deals with it…and tolerate it…and doing so…encourage it.
If Mexico won’t take care of its own…and the responsibility is ours, as they like to claim with the Immigration issue…then we should act like we’re responsible and send in the troops.
The corrupt Mexican government wants it both ways…they want us to tolerate their irresponsibility and corruption…and don’t want to clean up their own mess.
Michael siad, “So we destroy the Mexican family farm through NAFTA, subject them to slave wages in our factories, consume the drugs they produce, then want them to stay put and starve or be murdered.”
Agree on the NAFTA fiasco…agree on the slave wages in factories…agree on our Nation’s drug use…strongly disagree that seeking another option besides ignoring our Federal Immigration law is tantamount to “wanting them to stay put and starve or be murdered”…
The lax enforcement of Immigration law is clearly not helping Juarez.
Arizona’s laws have just gone into effect…and so far are a political statement only…and Juarez has been burning prior to this…
“Michael…even more reason to address the real problem…the Drug Cartels and the corrupt Mexican government.”
The problem is that America has an insatiable love for drugs and we have worship capitalism over any other creed.
That’s the problem.
The two ‘critical reviews of the Jesus Manifesto do not even draw blood… they are mostly calls for more… and acknowledgements of unmet expectations… The book delivers what it promises… and deals with a narrow agenda effectively…
It’s kind of a “chicken or the egg”…
Stop the flow of drugs…and you stop the addicts….
vs.
Stop the addicts…and you stop the flow of drugs.
I know we’ve discussed this before…Legalization is an interesting option.
Talk about a surprise… Horton’s review of Wright is quite good… insightful and useful… the point of contention he raises would be and interesting discussion between the two.
I highly recommend reading the book and the review…
To follow the line of thinking on one side of the Immigration debate…
If we aren’t going to enforce Federal Immigration law…then why do we have the law?
Why not just abolish it…if enforcement = bad.
So, ponder a Sovereign Nation without Federal Immigration Laws…and the consequences of that decision…
BD,
I concur about the Jesus Manifesto reviews…critiques of a book that wasn’t written instead of reading the one that was…
Believe,
How about we deal with the real issues…we’ve helped create a place where Satan dwells by our own consumption and political maneuvering.
We won’t stop the migration…if the choice is leave or die, people are going to leave one way or another.
We need to deal with our own problems with drugs and help create a Mexico where people can live in peace.
They would actually prefer to stay in their homeland…
…some more thoughts…
If non-enforcement of Federal Immigration law is acceptable in our society…then what other Federal laws on the books are eligible for non-enforcement?
How about Federal tax laws?
Moral hazard is insidious. It is how Mexico became Mexico…
Michael, i am so sorry for all the mindless pain that just seems to increase unchecked
the problem that Arizona is trying to address is the lawlessness that is on the brink of chaos threatening the whole continent – we have on going “wars” the length of the Columbia River Valley in Washington State with mindless killings every single week – here this week a sleeping 10 year old was shot in the head as his home was peppered with bullets, another young man was executed right out in public – i suspect other areas in the States are worse
just a parting pontification tonight
God keep
Here’s how our government fights the “war on drugs”…
http://www.dallasobserver.com/2007-03-08/news/house-of-death/
Michael…you and I agree on the severity of the problem…and that the good people…the hard-working father who wants a better life for his family…are screwed.
We also agree that the problem is complicated and multi-faceted.
You have evil and corruption in Mexico in the form of the Mexican government and Drug Cartels…that are synonymous in most cases…and you have human beings who are trapped in a desperate situation.
In our country…you have demand for the drugs…and people who fund the operations in Mexico…and corrupt inept politicians who tacitly allow the situation to continue and propaganda over the stench wafting in from our southern neighbor.
I think we’re both right…we need to battle the issue on all the fronts we’ve both mentioned.
In the meantime…we need to help people that we come in contact with who need help…illegal, legal or otherwise…
…at the same time…we should not encourage non-enforcement of Federal law…it takes us down a path of moral hazard and starts us down a slippery slope…that is dangerous.
Enforce the law…change the law…or abolish the law.
This “we have the Federal law…but we aren’t going to enforce it…or allow you (Arizona) to enforce it”…is a huge mistake.
Poor Mexico- so far from heaven, so close to the United States.
-Porfirio Diaz
The killer in that story was just released and is somewhere free in America.
http://www.kvia.com/news/23104427/detail.html
Believe,
I’m extremely passionate about this…too much so.
I’ve been to Juarez…and my life and everything about me was changed by being there.
My whole point is this…enforcing laws will not solve the real problem yet we think they will.
We must think these things through…reform our laws and our culture…while loving helpless people.
The kingdom of God knows no borders.
We often think “nothing” is being done stateside to address the Drug Cartel issue.
Not so.
I have a “friend”…I’ll leave him anonymous…who was with a particular highly trained unit…
He describes a story of an operation that went down in the San Diego area.
He and his unit were called into a joint exercise with the FBI. He found himself rolling down the street of a residential neighborhood…in an armored vehicle.
Suddenly, the vehicle takes a sharp left…through a front yard…through the front door and facade of a middle class residential house. He exits the vehicle…goes room by room and “clears” the house…
…I asked how many they arrested.
He answered, “no, you don’t understand…we killed everyone in the house…”
“Oh.”
The FBI cleaned up the mess.
It was a Drug Cartel house and they were trafficking weapons. Someone pissed off someone.
We have the ability and the capability to destroy these guys.
We know who they are…and where they’re at.
I have another “friend” who worked in drug interdiction in Central and South America…he was told if he was ever captured or killed…he would be on his own…they would not claim to have any knowledge of him.
This situation is far more complicated than any of us realize…and it appears to be coming to a head with all the instability…both in Mexico…and politically here in the U.S.
If the U.S. citizens make enough noise…something will get done. The “Powers that Be” understand public opinion (much like the church)…it’s the language and currency they deal in politically.
…exercise should be operation.
Michael said, “My whole point is this…enforcing laws will not solve the real problem yet we think they will.”
No, enforcing our Federal Immigration law will not solve the real problem…but it avoids creating another very large problem…moral hazard in the U.S.
“We must think these things through…reform our laws and our culture…while loving helpless people.”
I agree with that statement.
“The kingdom of God knows no borders.”
Amen to that statement.
I am a child of a legal immigrant. The requirement to become a USA citizen required literacy in English, surrender of citizenship to country of origin and a working knowledge of US history and understanding of the structure of our government. My parent taught us that it is a great priviledge to be a US citizen and later in their life, they thought our government devalued this priviledge by printing everything in a foreign languages.
I reside in a community w serious issues concerning illegal immigrants. It is a multifaceted issue that impacts many lives.
We must secure and close our borders before we can begin to sanely address all of the multiple issues. What our media is not reporting is that legal immigrants do not support illegal immigration. And Cesar Chavez was adamently against illegal immigration because it undermined a working wage for farm workers.
In 1986 we agreed to a comprehensive immigration solution…it only increased the financial burden upon our cities because the borders were never secured. And the churches and outreach ministries can continue to aid those abandoned by the Mexican government in their cities/towns.
I watched several documentaries about the Drug wars in Mexico and on our borders. I will admit my first response was, well pathetic, asinine and stupid it was to beg God for protection and deliverance. The church should fast and pray against the enemy of our souls and to find real solutions to this problem. Because my pov does not offer much of an apologetic, rouse the troops response it is basically useless. It really seems strange that we fight spiritual warfare with worldly power. I admit I swim at the very very shallow end of the spiritual pool on a good day, but I think we need to meet this evil with spiritual armor. I wont go into what I have been told when I suggested this, when I actually suggested things with in the local faith community. Their response geared around tanks, more guns, large walls, the death penalty etc. I am sure I am wrong, but I have seen what drugs can do to people. It really does not matter but it was awful, which also does not matter, but that is another post.
Na’amah, what you say is true.
And i’d rather have a legal immigrant as a neighbor than half the folk who’ve been born in the USA 🙂
Christian virtue and citizenship in this Country are not synonymous by a long shot.
IMNSHO it would help if people of all ages, and usually making good money, would get over thinking that ‘recreational’ use of drugs was harmless fun – a good way to relax; although, heaven knows (it really does) that people desperately need to do so…
brian, what you say is true, too 😀
God have mercy on us all … and He does, doesn’t He? more than we know I think considering the bent of this planet now
Brian…very good point…made in your unique way. 🙂
#27 i mean people desperately need to relax (not ‘desperately’ need to use drugs – although…) 🙁
wish i’d learn to edit before ‘submitting’
Agreeing with Em also…the race issue is a distraction…on all sides…God is “our” Father…all mankind.
The issue is law and justice…from a civil perspective…vs. lawlessness and injustice.
Spiritually…we are called to “Love our neighbor”…so legal or illegal, black, white, brown…we’re called to help people in need…and we should and we do.
It’s a challenging issue for me…in what to do as a Christian about the mess.
If you look at the Old Testament…God used war to kill the enemies of Israel…and to bring punishment and correction to His people.
In the New Testament…Jesus our Christ pretty much does away with any form of physical war…and shows us that the battle that counts is the Spiritual battle. When I read the Gospels…and the words of Jesus our Messiah…I lean toward pacifism (physically an politically).
Yet, our society would crumble…physically and Spiritually…without a rule of law.
Gonna do some more chewing on this issue…
Am I wrong about the message of the New Testament?
Em…ironically…you may have been right the first time 🙂
If the Rastafarians are right…and everyone smoked pot…the world would be a better and safer place 🙂 8)
Just kidding…I do not advocate smoking pot (nor do I smoke it…nor does Pastor Dave 🙂 )…unless there is a medical need for it…like a cancer patient in pain who also needs an appetite…or glaucoma sufferers etc. and it is prescribed by a doctor.
Armando Galarrago lost a perfect game last night and “He looked at Joyce [umpire who made bad call]]. And smiled. A perfect picture at the end of an imperfect ending in an imperfect sport. A snapshot of the old Kipling line about keeping your head while all those around you are losing theirs”
quoting columnist in NYDailyNews
don’t know what country the Tiger’s pitcher comes from, but he’s a class act
just sayin – in light of my comments (& others’) here
All this talk about immigration law is really hitting home for this last month. My sister-in-law’s fiance is here in the country illegally for over 10 years. He is Bulgarian, looks a white as can be, and speaks English without an accent. He had assumed a false identity to avoid INS. He was productive here in the US, obtaining 2 college degrees, holding a good job and was overall valuable to the US. He was generous with his time and money, almost to a fault. He paid his fair share in taxes under the false identity. He never had any problems with the law, except for a year ago related to his job. He was picked up last month regarding the false identity, though things are even more complicated that any news has mentioned. A few years ago had he been caught, he probably would have received a slap on the wrist. Now, we are worried that he may actually be deported to appear tough on immigration. How fair does it look if a judge refuses to deport a white man?
My wife and I are torn. On one hand, he is everything that the US would like in a citizen. On the other, he is here in the US illegally. We recognize that justice needs to be served, but also that the crime he committed has been done hundreds or thousands of times with little recompense by other illegal immigrants.
David Wayne’s review of the Jesus Manifesto sounded to me like he placed to high of an expectation upon what the book was going to say (of didn’t say) and was let down.
Perhaps the people DW hangs with hear about (and see) Jesus regularly/clearly in conversation & writting, and thus the explicit emphasis from The JM authors may seem to be a bit of a redundancy. But really, can the emphasis upon Jesus really be a redundancy? And are we all not in need of regular reminders of Jesus, due to our proclivities to marginalize Him, even at the expense of “good things”, like theology, worship, eschatology, apologetics, justice, ad infinitum.
Though I’ve not read the book yet, but any book, from any author that drops ink about the subject of the biblical/historical/risen & exalted Jesus is a winner…and always needed, IMO!
Is the concept of “justice” a New Testament principle? Or is that hanging onto “Law” and “Legalism”???