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36 Responses

  1. Mr Jesperson says:

    I have a couple of unique links to add: the first is satire written from a black point of view about their prosperity doctrine teachers:
    The second is a video where secular mathematicians take up the classic theological divide question between Calvinists and Armenians. Does mathematics point towards determinism or free will? Or Einstein vs. Michio Kaku “Why Physics ends the Free Will Debate:”

  2. Babylon's Dread says:

    The steak lady was reaching… that was a pretty harmless example to draw such big conclusions … I wonder if she ever read any midrash applications of texts. If the usage was harmful I would not mention it. Seemed to me she just need to vent.

    Besides that the amplified bible drives me as crazy as that stuff.

  3. Dallas says:

    On Preaching to Death… This was a good read, and is probably valid for most people, or maybe even all people most of the time. My mind might not work the same as most, but I find that when I have done bulk consuming of sermons or even books in the past, that I am mostly fairly passive, but with come across a certain verse of idea (sometimes my own and not the preaching) that I will chew on for days, weeks, even years. I also have a fairly decent recall, so that just because it didn’t change me in the moment, it doesn’t mean that it won’t resurface somewhere down the line.

    When I was first starting in my walk, I gorged on a massive amount of information, way more than I could easily digest, but I was actually able to sift through it over the following years as it came to mind of I encountered it again. Just because it didn’t change me in the moment didn’t mean that it was wasted.

  4. Em ... again says:

    just cruised through the questions to ask atheists… the comments that followed are interesting … one said never quote the Bible as it holds no weight … that is a fallacy IMV …
    as an argument it may not carry weight, but truth has its own impact…
    for instance, long ago i heard 2nd hand of a man, a Believer, good and devout, who got into a discussion with his agnostic/atheist boss on this subject… the Believer, of course made no headway (there’s always a (usually) smart-mouth comeback)… but these were two civil men of a scientific bent having a civil discussion… the Believer closed the discussion with, “well… okay, but… God has said, ‘My spirit will not always strive with a man.” He related that his boss did not reply, but turned white as a sheet… the Word does have an impact – sometimes when we least expect it to…

  5. Babylon's Dread says:

    As for the advisor who says don’t quote the Bible to an atheist because it has no weight. Well, that shows more about him than the atheist. I prefer the mentor who told me that a sword cuts those who don’t believe in them as efficiently as those who do.

  6. Xenia says:

    The main issue (behind everything that you read on the Internet) is Patriarch Bartholomew vs Patriarch Kyrill of Russia. Pat. Bartholomew is more modernist and seems to want to cozy up with the Roman Catholics. Pat. Kyrill is more traditionalist and while he is happy to chat with the Pope in the Havana airport about the slaughter of Christians in the mid-east, he is not interested in uniting with the Catholics. Pat. Bartholomew is the Ecumenical Patriarch (the “EP”) which means he is the first among equals but not anything like the Pope of Rome. Currently, he presides over a very small group of Orthodox Christians in Turkey where he is severely limited in his actions by the Turkish government. He presides over GOARCH (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America) and not much else. Pat. Kyrill presides over the largest Orthodox jurisdiction in the world, the Russian Orthodox Church. Many believe the headquarters, so to speak, of Ortholandia should be in Moscow which, since the fall of Constantinople in 1453, has styled itself as “the Third Rome.”

    The Bulgarians and the Antiochian Churches have also pulled out of the Council. The reasons are complicated but I think it all boils down to resisting any whiffs of modernism.

    It traditionalism vs modernism, Orthodox style, where even our modernism looks very, very ancient to outsiders.

  7. Xenia says:

    My #6 is in reference to the Orthodox Synod links. I hope I didn’t misrepresent the issues. I certainly am guilty over simplification.

  8. Michael says:


    Fascinating to me that Orthodoxy is wrestling with the same issues as CC and other Protestant groups.

    I wonder if as the older generation passes there will be an inevitable slide into modernism…

  9. Xenia says:

    Michael, true, but modernism in the Orthodox Church doesn’t mean female priests blessing homosexual marriages. It’s questions about should we be in the WWC, should the fasting rules be relaxed, impediments to marriage, etc. But that’s where it all starts.

  10. Owen says:

    Yep, the Word will always have an impact (so long as those telling it don’t get in the way with their attitudes). Really good article about atheists, gave me food for thought. At a former workplace I had many discussions with a good guy that I enjoyed working with, and who believed science pretty much explained everything. I think he was actually frightened, however, by my belief in something he couldn’t explain.

    I have to agree with quite a bit of what was said in the “singing in church” link. Our small church uses mostly the old hymns, and we also have a “worship leader” who tries to lead us in singing contemporary music that was obviously written for solo performance. (The songs do showcase her voice quite nicely, but following along is difficult.) I find it very telling that the singing along greatly increases during the hymns.
    I listen to some Christian music myself during the week, and have my favourites. But those are mainly for my own enjoyment, and keeping me mindful of the things of God when I go about my day. But IMO we are meant to worship in the community of believers also, and music is a large part of that. I think the article makes a very good point, that many churches have removed the congregation from participation.

  11. Babylon's Dread says:

    The songless dude needs a serious laxative but I bet he feels better for the vent.

  12. Michael says:

    Just added a very good link on punching down on working class Christians…

  13. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    about that worship rant post … a bunch of musical specialists performing complex music people can’t keep track of or sing along with was … sometimes … a complaint about music written by composers in the high Baroque period. Similar complaints could be lodged against ars perfecta a la Palestrina or Tallis or Byrd (admittedly being possibly sloppy with that coinage there).

    The kind of musical literacy the author wants doesn’t just come from thin air. Artists and academics have been complaining for a generation or so that arts education got cut from public schools. There’s not likely to be a film that reverses the School of Rock tale where someone convinces kids to abandon rock/pop in favor of old Anglican music.

  14. Em ... again says:

    Oh my! … punching down working class Christians … oh my! … i know i’ve heard a few speak out, but where is the coming alongside and standing with? … if anything points to the cocoon our “important” Christian leadership hides in … i’m going to be doing a lot of pondering here … this might even be …?… a sign … of something… 🙂

    good links again, glad this one is included today …

  15. Jean says:

    If anyone is studying, or will be teaching, on the topic of genocide in the OT, Darrell Bock and a panel of DTS OT scholars have a good video discussion of the biblical and theological issues at the following link.

  16. Jean says:

    Russell Moore:

    “The church of Jesus Christ ought to be the last people to fall for hucksters and demagogues. After all, the church bears the Spirit of God, who gifts the Body with discernment and wisdom. But too often we do. We receive celebrities simply because they are “conservative,” without asking what they are conserving.”


  17. Xenia says:

    Another great quote from Michael’s link:

    “If politics drives the gospel, rather than the other way around, we end up with a public witness in which Mormon talk-show hosts and serially-monogamous casino magnates and prosperity-gospel preachers are welcomed into our ranks, regardless of what violence they do to the gospel. They are, after all, “right on the issues.”

  18. Michael says:

    I have been critical of Al Mohler in the past, but I have to say that he is also standing against Trump on the basis that character matters.

    This takes great courage in this political climate and these two men have earned my respect.

    Russell Moore is the best thing that’s happened to evangelicalism since the ESV… 🙂

  19. Babylon's Dread says:

    Election is actually a claim with a whole lot of necessary correlatives as Sam Storms points out. I also reject that it is in any way equivalent to what the scriptures assert. Of course we have done this all before. So I will just say that it always is a circular argument based on the definition of a word and not upon the exegesis of scripture.

    Bound and Dread

  20. Em ... again says:

    other than to say that they find no moral basis for backing candidate X or Y… i can’t think of any reason for any of our Church “leaders” to opinionate on any political candidate… unless they think there’s genocide on the agenda … dunno

  21. Michael says:


    Of course, you’re correct.
    Augustine, Calvin, and Packer were just a long line of incompetent exegetes who pulled a doctrine out of their ass.

    Not like those incredible exegetical schemes of the renewal movement like “open heavens” and “impartation”…

    If you want to present superior exegesis then do so…if you just want to be rude, I trust you know you’ve met your match.

  22. Em ... again says:

    Moore: “The world system around us, the cultural matrix we inhabit, is alien to the kingdom of God—with different priorities, different strategies, and a different vision of the future. If we don’t see that we are walking a narrow and counter-intuitive road, we will have nothing distinctive to say because we will have forgotten who we are.”

    i think i’ve heard this from some of the folk who post here 🙂

  23. Michael says:


    For decades there has been an identifiable voting block of evangelicals who claim to hold the higher spiritual ground.
    They have been overwhelmingly Republican and those who did not move in lockstep had their very salvation questioned.
    Now we see it for the hypocrisy I said it was for years…it is nothing more than a lust for power.
    When the “evangelical” choice is a serial adulterer and strip club owner I suggest that no one get too angry with my disgust with such.

    If the serial adulterer holds to your political positions and that is why you support him, have at it.
    Just don’t claim it has anything to do with the faith once delivered.

  24. Em ... again says:

    Michael, hmmm… @22 i was speaking of a Church leader supporting a candidate in his/her official capacity as a Church leader… i have no problem with him/her speaking as a private citizen… in private… but
    Moore said it better

  25. Michael says:


    Moore is wonderful and in my opinion, prophetic on this matter.

    He probably won’t last too much longer in that position if some get their way.

  26. Babylon's Dread says:


    Those were definitely some big asses thank you for sparing Paul.

    I was fairly confident I could stir the night watch.

    I still think those guys are doing logic and philosophy not theology.

    I truly did hate reading that stuff from Sam.

    And yes I bow to your high rudeness.

    Manger Dread

  27. Michael says:


    You’re entitled to think as you will, even if your thinking is dreadful on this matter.

    I have much disagreement with my Arminian and Roman Catholic brethren on this topic, but I cannot honestly say that they have not attempted careful exegesis or that they do not have a body of exegetical work they believe is more compelling than that I subscribe to.

  28. Babylon's Dread says:


    I do not think you mean to suggest that the only exegesis available to us concerning election is premised upon Augustinian determinism.

    For many theologians the debate monergism/synergism debate simply is not what the scriptures are engaged in.

    There is abundant exegesis on election that avoids this line of thought

  29. Michael says:


    I’m quite aware of it as I’ve had it shoved in my face for years here.

    I have also read a great deal of it and remain utterly unconvinced that the exegesis is superior…it is simply different and includes and excludes that which serves it, as most theologies do.

  30. brian says:

    Its a good move on the Evangelical side if Trump wins they will have a shoe in into power which is always important and the downside is if he loses they could play the persecution card or just let people forget they supported him which will take about one or two 12 hr news cycles. Good for them.

  31. Michael says:

    Just saw that Greg Laurie was one that met with Trump…

  32. Lutheran says:


    So did some other winners.

    The Copelands

    David Jeremiah

    A boatload of wordfaithers.

    Talk about a bunch of theological lightweights, if even that.

    This unholy alliance (at least in this generation) started with Reagan and continues on.

  33. Anne says:

    Lots of folks got their tighty whities in a twist over KP’s ring kissing while in reality a good symbol of a more tangible reality. Evangelicals of the religious right persuasion have been doing more than figurative kissing up to the rich for decades. Maybe true of religion as a whole for centuries thus perhaps the opening warnings in James 2.

    One eye opening experience I had while on prayer/advance team for yet another CC franchise on the SoCal coast was instruction to pray and keep eyes open for wealthy patrons . It was advice reported by the pastor as being from both Chuck and Courson’s playbook for success – that if it is the lords will for your plant to succeed you will be given a wealthy benefactor(s) to help underwrite and sustain your vision, and be foundational to the church’s health in the future- all according to God’s will & goodness of course.

  34. Em ... again says:

    it is interesting that there are many stories of a wealthy person showing up and making a large contribution to a Christian “work” … i’ll bet it has to do with taxes mostly, but sometimes it’s a flat out miracle of God … but
    wouldn’t courting the benefactor nullify the “miraculous?”
    most rich people, not all, but most use their money to gain something… and, sadly, that includes a bunch of those Evangelical notables listed… God forgive me, but do any of them have plain or homely wives?

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