Kevin’s Conversations: Bearing False Witness

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101 Responses

  1. Michael says:

    There are times when I think Kevin has a listening device in my home…this is one of those times. 🙂

  2. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I agree and I said this last week on the Skip promotional video that I don’t participate in any of the ‘character; type issues because if you are not there and in the know, you violate the 8th commandment (the 9th for many here).
    If we take Skip’s promotional video and apply motive have we not brought a false witness?

    In all of these cases, when Luther spoke of the 8th, it was not only to not bear false witness but that we have the responsibility to put the best construction on our thoughts and comments about others.

  3. Josh the Baptist says:

    Thank you Kev. He wrote this about when MLD knowingly misrepresents my posititons. 🙂

  4. Michael says:

    MLD,

    If..if…all I had was a video and didn’t know the back story…and the front story as well…you may have a point.
    I have all that and have no qualms about the Heitzig articles past or the ones coming.

  5. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh, I am like a recording machine and I just hit “play back” 🙂

  6. Em ... again says:

    1Co 1:26-31 “For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,[fn] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
    But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
    God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
    so that no human being[fn] might boast in the presence of God.
    And because of him[fn] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
    so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

    so… why is it i want to look wise and powerful and noble? is it because what i think is more important to me than the truth that i should be searching out? maybe… but maybe it is because i’m just plain foolish and weak and don’t want anybody to know that? could be… hmmm
    but i do know one thing:
    To God be the glory, GREAT THINGS HE HATH DONE – forgive the shouting this morning

  7. Kevin H says:

    Michael,

    You must not have yet found the bug despite all your combings of Miss Kitty for foxtail barbs. 😉

  8. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Michael, so you spoke to Skip about his motives for making the video?
    I am only speaking of that right now.

    But about all the rest, I said I do not participate because I do not know the truth or the backstory – so for me to comment in a bad way is just gossip, back biting (what ever that means) and is breaking the 8th commandment.

    If others have a clear conscience, fine.

  9. Kevin H says:

    Josh,

    Those misrepresentations aren’t knowingly. But those “play back” machines must get a bit faulty with age. 😉

  10. Michael says:

    I have a completely clear conscience…and impeccable sources.
    That’s about all I can say…until I say some more. 🙂

  11. Josh the Baptist says:

    That Skip video was flat-out goofy, even if I had no clue about anyone in the video. That’s one of those someone should have looked at and said, “This doesn’t look right.”

  12. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    But the implication was that Skip made the video for evil at worst or to take advantage of others at best — when he may have just done it for fun – unless we get a comment from him, we don’t know.

    Now, to just make fun of the video as goofy – that probably is no harm no foul.

  13. Michael says:

    Part of this problem comes about because the “news” media is now utterly are and unvetted.
    People quote from scurrilous sources as if they were Sinai if that story agrees with their political leaning.

    Remember when the government was taking over huge parts of Texas last summer?
    Remember when there were ISIS camps just over the border from El Paso?

    It can be more subtle than that, as well.

    One of the biggest lies was about the Central American refugees a couple of years ago.

    We “apprehended” thousands of them.

    We apprehended very few…to seek refugee status you cross the border and present yourself to the Border Patrol willingly.

    That is what was going on…that wasn’t what was reported.

    Good luck trying to explain any of that to those who choose to think differently.

  14. Josh the Baptist says:

    It looked like that Scientology promo video from the 90’s.

  15. Michael says:

    The Skip video was directly related to the “sermon” he had his lackey preach the week before and directly related to what’s coming in the near future.

    I’m just here to help connect the dots for people.

    Skip has proved his character over and over again…

  16. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    See, if I started emailing my friends about the wicked Skip scheme to come based on what I read here (which may be true, but I don’t know) this is no different than if I run off about Obama being a closet homosexual because I read it on some right wing blog (which could be true but I don’t know.)

  17. Josh the Baptist says:

    Michael’s 13 is true. These news sources are constantly pushing fear and division. There must be something to gain by keeping us riled up.

  18. Erunner says:

    This article reminds me of something that’s been on my mind for some time. It’s the term Evangelical Christian.

    As I came up in the CC movement I found that my passion was to evangelize those who were in my life and others I came across. In a nutshell I wanted them to know the God I knew as I wanted them to leave the things of this world and receive eternal life. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    Now that term has become almost a curse word everywhere I go. I understand there’s much dirty laundry that has and is still done in the world by some who would claim the phrase in describing themselves.

    It also seems to me that Calvary Chapel and Evangelical Christian appear to be united at the hip and are interchangeable phrases for many in the broader Christian world.

    At times I fear the country may one day turn totally against the Evangelical community. How that might take place I don’t know and for all I know may never happen.

    Many years ago on this blog it was suggested that people who attend CC were pretty much mentally ill.

    At times I have picked up on that mindset here. That those who are Evangelical or attend CC are the biggest danger to the church.

    Having been a reader and participant here for about as long as anyone else I’m aware of the scandals, etc. that have been done and even covered up in CC and the Evangelical world.

    Having arrived here believing CC was the church of Philadelphia it took time for me to realize my world and my beliefs needed a wake-up call. I’m also one of the many who ended up leaving CC due to a very hurtful experience with a former pastor that hurt me to the core.

    I have seen many CC’s and others change stances on different things through the years and I believe each of those churches are safe and sound. Good things are happening even while others in the movement seem to be at war with one another.

    Are the Evangelicals and CC going to become the collateral damage in the world’s quest to go after the things of God as has been already happening. Would other believers say they had it coming if something bad was to take place? I surely hope not.

    Please don’t broad brush all CC’s and Evangelicals together. I know there’s problems everywhere but the bottom line is if those who are misguided are still our brothers and sisters and they deserve our prayers with me being at the front of the line.

    As I stated at the beginning these are thoughts I have been dealing with and I hope I have expressed them coherently.

  19. Michael says:

    MLD,

    What the reader must do is judge the track record of the reporter.
    I’ll stand with mine.

    Now, lets look at what I actually reported.

    I reviewed the sermon from a theological and psychological perspective with the actual sermon attached so that people could make their own judgments about it alongside mine.

    I posted the video without commentary so people could judge for themselves.

    Those are called primary sources.

    The reader could agree or disagree…but the source material was right there for all to view.

  20. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Hey E,
    I think evangelicals have gotten themselves in such a mess, that yes you are correct – they are undescribable.

    Roger Olsen on yesterday’s Linkathon – a mainstream evangelical wrote a blog asking “what is an evangelical.

    Anyone gets to call themselves evangelicals – from RC Sproul to Benny Hinn – and no one objects. Lutherans were the original evangelicals but gave up the title when the crazy wing took over. I am surprised in today’s climate that any thinking group still wants to use the term. It does not mean what it used to – hey, when I was a young man, I used to describe myself as a gay young man — I can’t really do that today. 🙂

  21. Michael says:

    Erunner,

    Well said.

    There are issues here that need to be separated.

    What I see first of all is that the conflation of church and politics has created (unnecessarily) much of the angst again evangelicalism.

    Many of it’s leaders couldn’t wait to the a picture with the newest guy they hope to be their power broker yesterday.

    The second thing is that our oft time refusal to deal with our own issues has not been good for our credibility.

    I have friends in CC…but I have ten times as many enemies… for telling the truth.

    Having said all that, it is also true that there are many sound churches and faithful pastors in evangelicalism…

  22. Michael says:

    Josh,

    There is great value in keeping people angry.
    It drives ratings and page hits and is what advertisers are looking for.

    Media has always been funded by advertising…and those dollars are fewer and harder to come by now.

    Sober discussions don’t cut it for people addicted to adrenaline after dinner…

  23. Erunner says:

    “Having said all that, it is also true that there are many sound churches and faithful pastors in evangelicalism…”

    My concern is that we throw the baby out with the bath water. Another is that we/myself don’t pray for those who we don’t agree with.

  24. Josh the Baptist says:

    Obviously I agree 100% with Erunner. I’ve banged that drum for months now.

  25. Michael says:

    I’ve already confessed that I’m very bent against what is perceived as evangelicalism.
    You had hundreds of leaders sucking up to a strip club owner yesterday and very few voices asking why.
    Thank God for Russell Moore…

    It’s entirely possible that I’ve gone over the top…I wasn’t kidding about very intentional about introducing T to the more ancient expressions of the faith locally and the fact that I would disapprove greatly of him ending up in one of these other local churches.

    His faith would have a hard time surviving in them.

    I’m hoping the EO church we visit doesn’t fall on my head when the Calvinist enters…

    Maybe Russell will plant a church here… 🙂

  26. Kevin H says:

    I agree with Erunner too that evangelicalism wrongfully gets painted badly with a broadbrush too often in our culture, including even sometimes at this blog.

    The term evangelical has also become so broad to include so many that it makes it easier to speak badly about it since there are so many whack-a-do’s who supposedly represent evangelicalism. And even mainstream evangelicals have brought on some of the consternation themselves by participating too much in unhealthy excesses.

    With that said, I think there are many evangelical people and churches and pastors who are solidly grounded and aren’t deserving of the epithets thrown their way.

  27. Michael says:

    Kevin,

    You’re killing it on Facebook…great stuff.

  28. Kevin H says:

    Thanks, Michael. And thanks for letting an evangelical write at your blog. 😉

  29. Michael says:

    Kevin,

    People like you and Josh are the hope for the future…I’m all for evangelicals like you.

  30. Josh the Baptist says:

    I’ve never been a self-identifying evangelical. The term is too broad to have real meaning. To everyone in the world, though, that’s what I am. We just all need to point back to Jesus. Evangelicals, Liberals, whoever…drop our agendas and point to Jesus. That’s the common ground we all need.

  31. Michael says:

    What does it mean to “drop our agendas and point to Jesus”?
    I would agree with the words…but what does that look like in reality?

    For me that would start with disentangling the church from identification with any particular political entity…and I’m not sure that is possible today.

  32. Al says:

    “Obama is a Muslim.

    Obama is a closet homosexual.

    Obama is about to take executive action to take all of our guns.

    Obama is not going to allow the next election for president.

    And so on and so on.”

    1. Obama is a Black Liberationist. Black Liberationism is a close cousin to Louis Farrakhan black muslim garbage. Obama is certainly Pro-Islam. <–Those are facts not opinions.

    2. Obama is very effeminate. Michelle is very masculine.

    3. Obama is staunchly Anti-Gun and Anti-Bill of Rights. Those are facts, not opinions. If the Opposition did not fight back, Obama would take away gun rights. The fact he has not been successful does not mean he wouldn't do it if he could get away with it. Your assertion here is invalid.

    4. That one is bogus, agreed.

  33. Al says:

    Michael asked, “What does it mean to “drop our agendas and point to Jesus”?
    I would agree with the words…but what does that look like in reality?”

    Exactly. It’s a nice slogan, but good luck in practical terms b/c everyone has a different opinion as to how that is done in practical terms….so it ends up being political and opinion-based.

  34. Michael says:

    1. Obama has said he is a Christian…and he seems to know more about what that means than the current Republican nominee.
    He has a very liberal worldview about Islam (which is in error),that doesn’t mean he belongs to the faith.

    2. Those are just ridiculous statements meant to convey contempt.

    3. We’re seven and a half years in and America is still well armed. The hundreds of conspiracy theories have been pure sensationalism. He’s for gun control…a lot of folks are.

  35. Mr Jesperson says:

    Thanks Kevin for hitting things on the head here again. Someone needs to be writing this stuff. By coming here and starting to comment on theological matters, I have been more and more concerned with speaking truth as clearly as I can. When I am confused, someone will certainly set me straight. I am also concerned about not participating in what I would call a civil war going on inside the church. This war is driven by anger, fear, pride, jealousy, envy, and a lust for power over other humans. I have seen what you have seen here. There are not many here who are pushing the war in their comments. The couple of regulars who do I have on ignore. For the rest, I hope that we all learn from each other and grow in our orthopraxy as we should. Keep writing Kevin! Be a voice for moderation and self-control.

  36. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I self identify mostly as Lutheran – because everyone then must ask “what the hell is a Lutheran?” and I can speak.

    If I say Christian, then I must fight people’s preconceived ideas – “oh, my friend is a christian and he goes out and gets drunk with us.”

    If I were to disclose myself as an evangelical – well the discussion would be over right away as I would be identified as Jerry Falwell’s son.

  37. Michael says:

    Here’s one Kevin left out.
    I just glanced at Facebook and saw numerous preachers being described as “apostate”…because they read outside the tradition of those making the judgment.

    That is also bearing false witness…

  38. Al says:

    “2. Those are just ridiculous statements meant to convey contempt.”

    No, those are observations from watching the two over many years now.

  39. Al says:

    agreed on the apostate stuff, it’s nonsense

  40. Josh the Baptist says:

    “What does it mean to “drop our agendas and point to Jesus”?
    I would agree with the words…but what does that look like in reality?

    For me that would start with disentangling the church from identification with any particular political entity…”

    Yes, that would be a start. For Christians who are pushing heavily along political lines, I would ask them to stop that and just talk alot more about Jesus.

    Now – there are thousands of other little hobby horses that we take up, but sure, the political one is a practical example.

  41. Michael says:

    Alex,

    I don’t find the President effeminate or his wife masculine.
    It wouldn’t matter if I did…policy would be what matters.

    I don’t get the nasty stuff about the first ladys appearance…anybody here ever seen a picture of Eleanor Roosevelt?

    Despite that, she was an incredible person…and her appearance was only spoken of to be cruel.

  42. Kevin H says:

    Al, a clarification on #3 – I’m not saying that Obama may not like to take all the guns. What I’m saying is he won’t – the fight from the opposition (as you point out) being a big reason why. What I often hear or see are those exclaiming that Obama is about to sign an executive order which will force everyone to turn in their guns. Yet they have no real evidence that such a thing is going to happen, nor has it obviously ever happened.

  43. Michael says:

    Josh,

    I think it well and good to address particular issues without a blanket endorsement of an entire party platform or candidate.

    I’ve learned just to teach the scriptures to the best of my ability and let people make their own application…

  44. Michael says:

    Mr Jesperson,

    Glad you appreciate this sort of article…it’s quite healthy, I think.

  45. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Perhaps it is just hyperbole … a favorite tool of Jesus when speaking to and about others. 🙂

  46. Josh the Baptist says:

    “I’ve learned just to teach the scriptures to the best of my ability and let people make their own application…”

    There you go. My point exactly. If we all get closer to doing that, division will lessen. It won’t go away, but it will definitely shrink, and be centered on better issues.

  47. Em ... again says:

    #36-i like the logic there … i think from here on out, if anyone asks me what i am, i am a lollard 🙂

    i don’t think Obama is a Christian, except for political purposes… as i’ve watched him these last 7+ years i’ve concluded that he is indeed best described as a universalist… “good people all worship the same god – no matter their religion” – and he does have a loyalty to the Muslims as he sees them discriminated against

    i don’t he and Michelle are gender confused at all – and they are very symbiotic, but she’s not “the little woman.” either – in any respect

    still thinking 🙂 i think that the fish is an excellent symbol today for the true Church… we school and turn up in different places at different seasons… if you asked a Koi what he was (if you could), would he say i am a “ponder?” or would a beautiful tropical fish say, “i am a reefer?” … sorry bout those LOL

    God keep

  48. Al says:

    ok kevin, understood. good article.

  49. Al says:

    Michael said, “policy would be what matters.”

    Agreed. Very true.

  50. Jean says:

    Some of the statements in this thread are utterly repugnant and totally foreign to biblical Christianity. Perhaps the people who would condemn a man they have never met to hell in contrast to his public confession should repent of their own sin and review Matt 7, including:

    “For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.”

    Your judgments actually validate this article.

  51. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I have no problem accepting Obama’s claim to be a Christian. We may not like all of his policies, but I have not heard him make any claims denying his previous claims to be Christian or claims to denying Jesus.

    I would say the same about Trump who may have his faith in Jesus – but is terribly confused about the details.

  52. JD says:

    Satan’s strategy of divide and conquer appears to be still working well ever since he “joined” the church. But even the gates of hell shall not prevail against us.

  53. Em ... again says:

    “I have no problem with Obama’s claim to be a Christian…” i do – i voted for the man with great hopes for all that his election would represent for this nation’s progress, so i watched him closely in the early years… is he a Christian? only God knows… if, at best, he sees Jesus as anything other than a good religious figure among many, it will be a surprise to me – i see my calling… not many mighty men after there – – dunno, tho, do i?

  54. Owen says:

    Evangelical – this is something I myself have been confused about for some time. Not that I expend much energy worrying about it, to be honest, but I’d like to ask a question of those in the know here, as I try to keep up with the discussions…

    How is Evangelical currently defined (or is that question just to vague to define)?

    I belong to a Lutheran Church that has that term attached to it, but I have not seen or experienced many of the “evils” (only term I could think of at the moment) that I’ve heard attached to the term Evangelical.

  55. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    em, have you ever heard Obama say anything that would indicate he is not a Christian? Anytime I have heard him speak of his religious life it has always been as a Christian.

    He wasn’t like George Bush who pretty much claimed that all religions were the same.

  56. London says:

    Today my friend posted a meme on FB basically saying that no matter who you voted for, he wouldn’t “unfriend” you because the diversity of opinions is what makes for good democracy and open dialog.

    This is the serious response of one of his friends:
    “Sorry brother I love ya but there is something emotionally wrong with anyone that would support HRC. I don’t want them in my life.”

    So funny and yet so sad….

  57. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Facebook is a playground. People mess with each other. Nobody takes it seriously … they just act like they do.

    Time for a survey – who here takes facebook conversations seriously — unless you are debating who is the best oldies band?

  58. Em ... again says:

    MLD, what you’re asking would require documentation that i’m not willing to go dig up… i have no recollection of him ever denouncing Christianity by name – but i quit listening to the man after hearing him claim that Muslims worshipped the same god as Christians – does a politician get extra latitude because he is a politician?
    i didn’t track George Jr., – not qualified for the office IMHO – so i don’t know what his religion of preference is/was… George Sr.? dunno about him either… altho i admired him as a very principled man of integrity and, yes, i know about the contras

    you asked….

  59. London says:

    We don’t need a survey.
    My comment is about the way people bear false witness, not about the validity of Facebook.
    Sheesh.

  60. Michael says:

    I take it very seriously and know many, many people that do . I’ve seen it boil over into reality way too many times.

  61. Jean says:

    MLD,

    Here’s the thing with some “Christian” groups, and #54 is a perfect example of what Michael’s been writing about for a long time, they can judge a person’s eternal destiny by their political and/or cultural views. They “watched him closely”, and can see that a man is not a Christian. Watched how? from 3,000 miles away on cable news or talk radio? You’d have to ask them.

    Just be careful about the political and cultural issues you champion, because you too might be classified as a pagan.

  62. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    My point was the same – people bear false witness as FB is a playground and you are expected to be outrageous.

  63. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jean, I know but who even pays attention to “these groups”? Who even knows who these groups are?

    I can play their game – if a ‘christian group’ panders to a party or candidate I declare them unsaved. 😉

  64. London says:

    Thanks Michael for getting what I was saying and not being dismissive.

  65. Michael says:

    London,

    I’ve been on the being unfriended end of that sort of deal.
    Lost a lot over the child refugees and got lots of nasty mail when I said I’d voted for Bernie in the primary.
    My problem is that it actually bothers me when people I like reject me for political views.

  66. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    It must be something in the way some people discuss things on FB. After college when I had to grow up and become responsible, I went from a long haired college radical to a bloviating conservative for 30 yrs.

    Then I decided to vote for Jerry Brown in the last 2 governor elections and spoke about it with family and friends online – no one blew up, got mad unfriended me. The worst remarks I ever got was “you’ll see later how wrong you are” or something similar.

    Perhaps I am too gentle and caring. 😉

  67. Jean says:

    Michael,

    If you’re popular on social media, that is a reliable sign that you’re not representing apostolic Christianity.

    But here’s the irony:

    You aren’t despised because you hate too many people or groups, or promote too much war and violence;

    You are despised precisely because you defend the weak, the outcasts, the poor and the otherwise unlovable. That will get you unfriended everyday and all day long.

    But, hey, if you are seeking the approval of men, you are in the wrong religion, even though it’s been hijacked by another spirit.

  68. London says:

    Michael,
    I understand. I think that people take FB pretty seriously. I have a cousin who refuses to acknowledge me at all on there any more because I’m anti-Trump. Obviously I’m a bad christian.

    So funny.

  69. brian says:

    Good article. thanks

  70. Scott says:

    I have 2 FB accounts, 1 for family and 1 for my trucker buddies. My trucker buddies account provides a steady stream of meme content of all sorts, including political stuff, which I find very, very amusing.

    I watched the Gospel of John video (again) the other day. Jesus testifying while standing before Pilate, after having been beaten to a bloody pulp, was a stark reminder to me of God’s perspective on most of this political bantering.

    In addition, I was listening to the audio version of the bible the other day too. Specifically, the Book of Daniel. His heavenly encounter in Daniel 10 when he committed to fasting & prayer was another stark reminder of the dark powers & principalities that are controlling much of what we humans so often try to deal with on merely human reasoning and resolutions.

  71. JoelG says:

    Facebook, or any social media, has became a distraction from real life. I would argue that Christian blogs fall into this category at times. Perhaps we as a society are too connected and too worried about what people post on a virtual bulletin board. It’s been good to “unplug” for me….much less anxiety and resentment. I still follow the conversations here, though.

  72. Em ... again says:

    Jean @62: “…#54 is a perfect example of what Michael’s been writing about for a long time, they can judge a person’s eternal destiny by their political and/or cultural views. They “watched him closely”, and can see that a man is not a Christian….”

    since i’m the one who posted at #54. may i question your reading skills? you seem to have missed this: “is he a Christian? only God knows” yes, i question, it’s called discerning – from what i discern, his equation of the gods of various religious disciplines, indicate that he doesn’t know Christ… but, as i said in my #54: – let me say it a little louder this time – IS HE A CHRISTIAN? ONLY GOD KNOWS

    perhaps we should cut folks some slack if their bearing of a false witness is due to a reading handicap? …. dunno

  73. Jean says:

    Em,
    I’m not bearing false witness. I’m just quoting you. You are in this case your own witness.

    You said in your #54 that you have a problem with the President claiming to be a Christian. That’s what you said “I do”.

    Now, if the President thinks Muslims worship the same God as Christians, that’s an error, but is it existential to salvation? I imagine, based on the history of Islam that millions of Christians believe that Islam, Judaism and Christianity share the same God of Abraham.

    Now, most evangelicals believe that Jews worship the same God as Christians. But the Bible says, no they don’t. Jews worship a false god just as the Muslims. Do you question the salvation of every evangelical Christian who thinks the Jews worship the same God Christians do?

  74. “IS HE A CHRISTIAN? ONLY GOD KNOWS ”
    This is code for he is not a Christian
    This would be valid as long as you qualified everyone’s claim to salvation in the same way. There could be no more saying “I once knew this fine Christian man in our neighborhood” or “my mother was a strong Christian woman.” Because only God knows.

    This is why I said earlier that I even have to take Trump as a Christian since he claims to be – he could be getting by with the bare minimum and be confused on the details – but I will not deny his confession – but I still wouldn’t vote for him.

    See, this is how you not only do not bear false witness but also put the best construct on the conversation.

  75. Scott says:

    Yeah, let’s nitpick, analyze and interpret every word that em writes!

  76. Scott why is that nit picking. The scriptures say if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord then you are a Christian. I have watched videos of Obama very clearly claiming Jesus is not only Lord but his Lord. So why can’t we say Obama is a Christian … without nit picking his words?

  77. I personally do not have the guts to deny the Christian faith in a person who confesses his faith like this. I will not leave it up to only God knows when I am to confess such a one as a brother.

  78. Scott says:

    ““IS HE A CHRISTIAN? ONLY GOD KNOWS ”
    This is code for he is not a Christian”

    No, that’s her way of saying that she doesn’t know for sure. Why isn’t that good enough? Is it necessary to put her on trial, analyze the meaning of her words, etc.???

  79. Kevin H says:

    I’ve been away for a while and just catching up on the thread. Let me address this one issue.

    I do not think Em bore false witness. She did not make a declarative statement about Obama’s faith. She gave her opinion that she doesn’t think Obama is a Christian and then followed it up with the declarative of “only God knows”.

    People are free to disagree with Em’s opinion and/or reasoning. But I think it is going too far to try to construe what she said as bearing false witness. She did not declare Obama to be out of the faith.

    As much as it irks me when people do intentionally misrepresent and/or bear false witness, I do also think we have to be careful in what we try to classify as bearing false witness.

  80. Babylon's Dread says:

    Politicians lie?
    Preachers exaggerate?
    Bloggers shape things?

    Only if breathing,

  81. Folks have a funny way of reading things – I mean really strange. Neither Jean nor myself made any claim of someone bringing false witness – we know better.

    In fact it was Em herself who brought the charge of someone bearing false witness. In her #73 she said “perhaps we should cut folks some slack if their bearing of a false witness is due to a reading handicap? …. dunno”

    I also wonder what it means to “make a declarative statement” vs a whisper or a piece of gossip around friends. So, it is bearing false witness if I state clearly Obama is a Muslim, but not so if I say only – I have this sneaking feeling that Obama is a Muslim.

    Saying something that is not true about someone or saying something that may lead others to doubt or believe something contrary about a person are both in violation of the 8th commandment. To bad this commandment is so far down on the list – it deserves better attention.

  82. From Luther’s Small Catechism on the 10 commandments;

    The Eighth Commandment

    You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.

    What does this mean?
    We should fear and love God so that we do not misrepresent, betray, slander, or defame our neighbour, but defend him, speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

  83. Em ... again says:

    thing of it is… i find Jean and MLD interesting… i may not write with great skill, but if i am discussing the Faith, i do not resort to cute, oblique digs … so if i am misunderstood as i so often am here, even if their interpretations of what i’ve said are not what i meant to convey, then Jean and MLD do a service in clearing such up

    however, @ #79 – i must say that i am more impressed with Scott’s reading comprehension…

    and, yes, MLD, the misinterpretations of my thoughts here did make me realize that it is possible that some folk out there who bear false witness may, like yourself, just have a reading comprehension problem – it was not a passive aggressive accusation aimed at anyone here …

    BTW – Romans 10:9 regarding confessing with your mouth unto salvation needs a little fleshing out … if i hear you say that Jesus saved you, that declaration is not what saves you … again, only God knows for certain … IMNSHO

  84. The confession shows that you are saved. One can only say Jesus is Lord by the spirit.
    We don’t need to argue – I posted the video of Obama saying on several occasions Jesus is his Lord – that’s good enough for me.

  85. Mr Jesperson says:

    I just finished watching “Spotlight.” What a powerful movie. It highlights what I hate the most about what happens when large church systems become institutionalized. To me it does not matter if the institution is as old as the Roman Catholic or as recent as Calvary Chapel. There is no excuse for covering up and enabling evil of this magnitude. To be honest, nothing gets me as angry as evil wrapped up inside of a “nice Christian facade.” I have always been this way. I think that there is nothing as sinister as this.

  86. Kevin H says:

    MLD,

    After re-reading this morning after having hurriedly trying to catch up with the thread last night, you are right that no one accused Em of bearing false witness.

    I believe my point still stands though in regards to making the charge of bearing false witness. If someone is making a declarative statement, then I think it is pretty cut and dry that false witness is committed if what they declare is false. If someone is only expressing an opinion as opposed to making a declarative statement, then that becomes more gray and I think that is where we have to be more careful in pulling the bearing false witness card.

  87. Em ... again says:

    to put a cap on yesterday’s back and forth with the Lutheran Believers here – my understanding is that both Jean and MLD are teachers of the Faith – i don’t claim to be anything other than a pew sitter (there’s probably good reason why God kept me seated for most of my 65 years in the Faith… at least after we joined ourselves to the SBC persuasion back in 1961)
    sooo it is incumbent upon them to take exception when they read my thoughts and see – or think they see – errors in my thinking/beliefs … whether they are right or wrong in their interpretations of what i’ve posted is secondary because others, who bother to read my posted comments, may have come to the same interpretations as they … sometimes it is just doctrinal differences and i do wish on those occasions they would preface their response with something to the effect, “we Lutherans don’t see that as correct.” But that is, i guess, a given 🙂
    for the record –
    i pretty much agree with MLD’s #82 – the warning about gossip is a good one – to imply by a bias or a half truth is not acceptable to God… and
    FWIW – i do still stand by my # 84
    God keep

  88. Al says:

    The truth is, we should try to be intellectually honest and present the “other sides” arguments or premises or narrative in an accurate manner when addressing disagreements with them.

    Rarely happens….on every “side” and Group known to humankind.

  89. Al says:

    I see evangelicals do this to Mormons a lot. The evangelical narrative about Mormons/LDS is often not really intellectually honest and not an accurate representation of what Mormons believe and does not accurately present their Theology and Doctrine etc.

    It is “bearing false witness” in my opinion.

  90. Al says:

    I observe pretty much every Christian, Religious, Political Group “bear false witness” toward every other Group they perceive to be an “enemy” or opponent or competitor.

    It is pulp human nature. All are guilty.

  91. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    About Mormons – if you can ever get one to tell you (1) what they believe and (2) what the Mormon Church teaches and then stick by what they say – then you may have a point – but, without ‘bearing false witness’ against them — they won’t, they tell you what they are allowed to tell.

    So, for those of us who try to witness to Mormons or warn others about Mormonism, sometoimes we are shooting at the fastest moving target in the world. 🙂

  92. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    And it is something we are all guilty of – that is why there is a commandment against it.

  93. Al says:

    MLD, don’t get me wrong, I don’t agree with the Mormon/LDS theology 100%, not by any stretch, but it is much more nuanced than the typical Evangelical anti-Mormon stuff presents.

    We are truly all guilty of that sin. We all need Jesus and Grace and Mercy.

  94. Al says:

    We all want Justice….for the other guy. We want Grace and Mercy for ourselves.

  95. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Al,
    I would agree with you agreeing with me, but I am sure that is one of those things promised to bring Jesus back 😉

  96. Kevin H says:

    MLD,

    Are you giving us a prophecy update? 😉

  97. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Al and I have agreed – so all I can add is Get Right or Be Left (behind)

  98. Al says:

    MLD, I have grown to love you in a brotherly way over the years. you are a good man sir.

    And, LOL on the other stuff above.

  99. Al says:

    …at times I’ve wanted to cyber-choke you LOL, but you have grown on me like a fungus 🙂

  100. Al says:

    I have been far too prideful and arrogant and know-it-all etc etc.

    I have been deeply hurt, deeply disillusioned, deeply disappointed. I had too much faith in CC leaders and too much faith in Chuck Smith and “church” and that got ripped from me.

    I lost my mom, the most sacred relationship I had at one time. I essentially lost my support system even though it was completely dysfunctional, it was still a “family”.

    I was angry at all the terrible stories of regular people getting hurt by CC pastors and the church system with no place to turn.

    I was mad at God. I didn’t want to accept the injustices and wrongs. I was angry God wouldn’t do anything about it.

    Bad stuff happens, injustices happen. God allows it for some reason but he is not the author of it. There isn’t always a happy ending. That’s just life and reality.

    I accept that I cannot force justice and cannot right all the wrongs etc. It’s not God’s fault. The church isn’t all bad. A lot of pastors and Christians are decent and good folks. Some are bad. OK, I can be bad, too. I want grace and mercy when I’m bad.

    Anyways, just wanted to share that so you guys know where I’m at right now. I’m pretty war-torn, but I learned a lot and I’m on a good path right now.

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