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177 Responses

  1. Ryan Ashton says:

    BJU just announced: reinstating GRACE. They apologized from the pulpit for surprising the victims and have resumed in earnest.

  2. RiBo says:

    Read the “Luther” link.

    Typical intellectual dishonesty where making beer makes the cut but not “On Jews and Their Lies” and calling for the public to burn down their synagogues etc etc.

  3. RiBo says:

    Ryan said, “BJU just announced: reinstating GRACE. They apologized from the pulpit for surprising the victims and have resumed in earnest.”

    Good! That’s good news. Boz is a warrior for accountability in the church.

  4. Nonnie says:

    I’m really glad to hear about BJU and the GRACE review resuming.

  5. The “We serve a Lead Pastor…” mantra from Furtick’s church is creepy for sure. I should say it is creepy at best, it is potentially very evil.

  6. Xenia says:

    Re: Problems with the Bible. If you view the OT as a proto-gospel and view every word of it as in some way relating to the Messiah it will be quite relevant.

    Re: About Where You Live. A quote from the article: “Monasteries were a failure…” Wrong.

    Re: On Hearing One Side of a Story: I recommend this article. I think everyone should read it and take it to heart. And what’s more, even if we do hear both sides of a story, is it any of our business?

  7. I was reading the POSTER to my daughter and after every point she would exclaim in a voice that makes her father proud… “It’s A CULT!” … Then I showed her the children’s Sunday School lesson… I think she threw up… ok not really but she said that makes me “want to…”

  8. I want to see multi-site churches with hologram pastors… I am sure that will come.

  9. Xenia says, “If you view the OT as a proto-gospel and view every word of it as in some way relating to the Messiah it will be quite relevant.”

    Bravo, I could not have said it better myself.

    One added thing – if you do what Xenia said, all of the prophecies will make sense.

  10. I am always amused about the question of God judging America… the family has disintegrated, morality is nonexistent, our institutions are disastrous, the national debt is unpayable… we are a nation that does “what is right in our own eyes” when do you suppose you will be able to judge that we are being judged? By that time there will apparently be no one to take note of the matter.

    Will conquest be the only sign? … we are a well-conquered people in most ways.

  11. RiBo says:

    Here’s a link for you, Calvary Chapel in Hawaii is being sued again with the amended lawsuit detailing dates, times, events of using state facilities…with no record of payment. The suit alleges CC defrauded the state out of $1 million and is seeking treble damages or $3.6 million.

    I’ve read the suit, looks like a slam dunk, lots of evidence.

    Read it here:

  12. There was nothing really strange about Relevant’s revelations on Luther. And given what made the list and the times we are living in I am shocked that something about his diatribe against Jews was not included.

    Sadly, the aforementioned writing will be the frame of viewing Luther for the foreseeable future. On the other hand it has been neglected by his advocates for too long.

  13. Steve Wright says:

    Here’s a link about an interesting anniversary from a couple weeks back.

  14. RiBo says:

    The “god is judging ‘Merica!” is simply a ridiculous argument. ‘Merica is the tallest midget in a room of godlessness. If there is a correlation then why is Estonia, an officially Atheist nation, the lowest rate of natural disaster on the planet and relatively healthy etc?

    C’mon Christians* use the brains you say God created you with.

  15. RiBo says:

    Anyone who seeks to view a Luther sans “On Jews and Their Lies” has no business critiquing anyone else for ignoring big errors in other historical figures.

    “He made beer! He liked sex! He didn’t want to split the church just reform it! Oh, and he laid out the rationale for Hitler and the Nazis to commit genocide against the Jews…but that’s no biggie, not worth mentioning”.

  16. Ribo,

    I will let MLD get into it with you on Luther but I think you overstate his guilt in that matter.

  17. As long as people insist on making Luther’s writings a part of the 21 st century, I guess we will have these conversations.
    Luther was a man of his times, he was influenced by the polemic writing and debating styles of his day.

    Luther spoke in strong terms about the Turks (who no one killed) he spoke in strong terms against the Pope (who no one killed or tried to overthrow) and he spoke strongly against the Jews, at the end of his life – who again no one killed, no one burned down their houses and no one imprisoned.

    Everyone at that time knew the style and the purpose.

    No one back then called Luther an anti semite and no one debated him on the issue – they understood his point. At the same time, if you check, I doubt you will find any mass exodus of Jews from Germany as they did not feel threatened.

    I doubt anyone could come up with an book with real binding that made such claims – what we have are the infamous, internet quotes.

    Whoa to any of you who have used the “N” word in your life.

  18. RiBo says:

    Dread said, “I will let MLD get into it with you on Luther but I think you overstate his guilt in that matter.”

    Well, the Nazis sure didn’t, they appealed to Luther’s writings quite regularly, even when they were tried for war crimes.

  19. Steve Wright says:

    Dr. Wallace got back from teaching textual criticism in India. His recount of the trip is a hoot.

  20. RiBo says:

    “On December 17, 1941, seven Lutheran regional church confederations issued a statement agreeing with the policy of forcing Jews to wear the yellow badge, “since after his bitter experience Luther had [strongly] suggested preventive measures against the Jews and their expulsion from German territory.”

    “The prevailing scholarly view since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany’s attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazi Party displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published. Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries. Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther’s role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the “larger peculiarities of German history.””

  21. 1. I don’t blame Luther for evil people using his writings. No more than I blame Marilyn Manson for school shootings.

    2. However, I am totes cool with Luther being a scumbag. We all are. His 95 thesis were dead on, though.

  22. RiBo says:

    Agreed that his 95 theses were “good”…also agree that his “On Jews and Their Laws” was “bad” and that publishing an account of Luther and listing “beer making” while ignoring “On Jews and Their Lies” and the influence on the Nazi party is intellectually dishonest at best.

  23. RiBo says:

    For example, if I blogged that we should burn down Calvary Chapel churches etc, would I get such a pass? If folks later burned down Calvary Chapel churches, would my legacy be “beer making” or something else?

  24. RB,
    %00 yrs later LOL – why didn’t anyone do anything then and there in Luther’s lifetime?

    If you wish to defend Hitler as a rational thinker (like you) go right ahead.

  25. RiBo says:

    Many are biased and intellectually dishonest and they choose to frame history, the bible etc however they want to to fit their Agendas.

  26. RB,
    Good example – so for the next 500 yrs no one burns down any CC churches. %00 yrs later some nut case has a cause against CC and he kills and murders 5 million CC people, is it your fault?

  27. Rob Murphy says:

    I liked the “Hearing Both Sides” and the “Seven Lies”.
    I don’t know the cure for ‘hearing both sides’, I just wish folks would show more honest curiosity. Good article.
    On ‘Seven Lies’, personally, a hospital bed sure cleared up any lingering ‘Life Goes Better With God’ – style of sharing my faith. I must add that there is for me inexplicable mystery in the “how” God brings peace and hope by interacting with Him by prayer and remembering His promises about Himself in the Bible. I don’t mind the tension of mysteries of my faith after experiencing real trouble and simply seeing another day ‘by faith’.

  28. “Many are biased and intellectually dishonest and they choose to frame history, the bible etc however they want to to fit their Agendas.”

    Not many – just you

  29. Why do you think the article was intellectually dishonest? Doesn’t seem like it was meant to be an exhaustive view on Luther’s life, just a few quirks. Does every article about Luther, in order to be intellectually honest, have to reference “Jews”?

  30. RiBo says:

    “why didn’t anyone do anything then and there in Luther’s lifetime?”

    B/c many agree with him, there was a lot of anti-semitism in Luther’s day.

  31. RiBo says:

    MLD, there was a lot of anti-semitism in the years between Luther’s “On Jews and Their Lies” and Hitler. Read some history.

  32. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Bottom line, is guys like Luther and Calvin did a lot of dirt to people and they are in no ways fathers of the true Church. I will never look up to men like that. That honor is reserved for men like Peter and Paul. Stop exalting these dead men!

  33. RB,
    I am sure that your internet has some cut and paste for you – there was much anti antisemitism long before Luther – like a millennium before.

  34. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Luther was late to the party, so many men and women separated from the false catholic church far before he did. Then you got Calvin and those who espouse this false OSAS Doctrine.

  35. Sol Rod – Paul did John Mark dirty – how can you respect the apostle Paule?

  36. Sol Rod – Luther did not separate from the Catholic Church – he was separated from them, by them.

    You do not understand the Reformation at all – you only hate the RCC and that’s as far as your education went.

  37. “Luther and Calvin did a lot of dirt to people.”

    You have too, though, right?

    I mean, I certainly have.

  38. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    Comparing Luther to Paul is like comparing a Pinto to a Rolls Royce

  39. SolRod,
    I wasn’t comparing – you made doing dirt to people the qualifier.
    Now if you want to make a claim of some dirt is OK, well, make your case. 🙂

  40. When I first saw the “Brian Has a Problem” link, I thought, our brian? 🙂
    Neat insight, though. Good to keep those type things in mind.

    For the seven lies:

    “We lie when we claim we are more confident than we really are.”

    “We lie when we claim that unexplainable things are in fact explainable.”
    True, but part of the discovery process is giving incomplete explanations. If we stopped just because we believe that we can’t know it all, then we would never learn.

    “We lie when we don’t acknowledge our doubts within the drama of faith.”
    Maybe, but I also acknowledge that maybe some people don’t doubt that much.

    “We lie when we pretend like the Bible doesn’t say some really nasty things when in fact it does.”
    Nasty? No. Difficult? Sure. Painful? Yep. I’m not sure nasty is the correct word, and I don’t think that makes me a liar.

    “We lie when we claim we understand other beliefs, faiths and world views.”
    What about people who have actually taken the time to learn about those things?

    “We lie when we claim that all of our beliefs are a “10”. ”
    Ummm, who does this?

    “Finally, and most importantly, we lie (insidious and barbaric lying) when we pretend like we really, really, really love the other person when in fact we don’t. ”
    Probably more true than I’d like to admit, though sometimes you gotta fake it til you make it. You can’t just say, “Ok truth is I don’t love you.”

  41. Steve Wright says:

    Maybe, but I also acknowledge that maybe some people don’t doubt that much.
    Josh….sometimes I have no doubt whatsoever that I have no idea why something is happening. 🙂

  42. RiBo says:

    Josh, I thought that too (when I saw “Brian”) LOL

  43. RiBo says:

    MLD said, ‘I am sure that your internet has some cut and paste for you – there was much anti antisemitism long before Luther – like a millennium before.”

    Didn’t assert there wasn’t, just that Luther moved the ball and gave the Nazis and others after his “On Jews and Their Lies” a Christian* argument they could point to to justify their anti-semitism.

    And, the “internet” is a vehicle of communication and information, like the books of old, it is agnostic, it is not some personality.

  44. “argument they could point to to justify their anti-semitism.”

    People can point to the bible and the atonement to warrant child abuse because God hung his son on a cross.

    People can come to wrong conclusions all the time.

  45. erunner says:

    Josh @ 40 “Finally, and most importantly, we lie (insidious and barbaric lying) when we pretend like we really, really, really love the other person when in fact we don’t. ”
    Probably more true than I’d like to admit, though sometimes you gotta fake it til you make it. You can’t just say, “Ok truth is I don’t love you.”

    This is tough Josh. I have a sister and I don’t love or like her. If she asked me if I loved her (which she wouldn’t) I would say no. Anything else would be a lie. The best I can do is to ask God to give me a heart to want to like, let alone love her. Maybe some relationships are so far gone the best thing to do is avoid contact??

  46. erunner says:

    RiBo, Can I ask what your feelings are towards BG? Do you love or like him? Do you hold out hope that maybe one day you two can have a healthy relationship? Thanks.

  47. Xenia says:

    What’s wrong with pretending you love someone if you really don’t? What’s the alternative, giving into hating them and running with that because it’s honest? If you can’t stand someone, act towards them as if you do love them. Pray for them, defer to them (if appropriate) and think good thoughts about them. Stop playing the tape loop where you remember all their faults. You never know, you might just wind up sincerely loving them, which is a command of God.

  48. Xenia says:

    (But there are some people I do avoid, while attempting to love them from afar.)

  49. erunner says:

    Xenia, I can maybe act like I like someone when I don’t but for me it seems wrong to fake love. I understand you can be loving without having the feelings by your actions towards another ( I’ve done that) but there’s one relationship that seems irretrievable. My family is telling me not to even be around this person because of real concern personal harm could come to me. Right now I’m not quite sure what to do. Right now I can’t even fake a prayer for this person.

  50. Xenia says:

    Today’s Saint story (originally related by his friend, St. John Chrysostome) was about St. Meletius of Antioch who was being carried away in some kind of horse-drawn conveyance to be executed. With him in the vehicle sat his persecutor, the governor of the district. The streets were lined with people who loved Meletius and they began throwing rocks at the governor. St. Meletius took off his cloak and threw it over the beleaguered governor’s head, to protect him. This is how you love your enemy.

  51. erunner says:

    I’m at the point I don’t have it in me to want to love this person. I read of people who forgive others for evil that was done and right now I’m working on that. Liking and loving aren’t even on my radar.

  52. Xenia says:

    Erunner, if this is the sister who recently bit you, I can understand how difficult it would be to even fake love for her. And while your wounds (physical and non-physical) are still fresh, it might be asking too much. But as Christians, we have to remember:

    1. In the Kingdom of God, hating one’s brother (or sister) is not an option.
    2. Christ said if we expect Him to forgive us, we must forgive others.

    I am glad I am not in your situation and have such a difficult person to practice this on.

  53. erunner says:

    Xenia, I’ve read stories like you shared and I’m not there. Saying otherwise would be lying.

  54. Xenia says:

    erunner, just keep praying. First pray for yourself, then gradually start praying for your sister. This is how things work in the Kingdom.

  55. erunner says:

    Xenia, It’s been a pattern for over 40 years. I’ve reached out. I’ve opened our home to her for six years. I’ve tried to reconcile. When you see the look in your sister’s eyes that if she had the chance she might do something to really harm you it’s unsettling. I have a lot of growth ahead of me I suspect.

  56. Xenia says:

    She sounds mentally ill?

  57. erunner says:

    Xenia, I’ve been through your 54 a number of times. It’s difficult to even want to do so again at this point. Thank you again.

  58. Xenia says:

    erunner, forgive me for giving platitudinous advice. I am sure you will do what is best.

  59. erunner says:

    Xenia, I think she is. A few feel she’s flat out evil. She’s been the way she is since our youth probably as a result of our father’s drinking. The sad thing is she’s living with our mother who is dealing with dementia issues and I’m the one who takes care of everything for my mother. She’s poison to my mother. It’s difficult on many levels.

  60. erunner says:

    Xenia, your advice is from real concern and I’ll never have an issue with that.

  61. Royce says:

    Stetzer on “multi-sites”:

    “2. There are still some concerns…”

    Like most of the big concerns are mostly gone?
    Typical Stetzer mealy-mouthed, lukewarm critique.

    Stetzer is a chameleon. He writes what many view as legitimate critiques – but he never names names. Other times, he seems to pander to the worst abusers, and even pals around with them. Sickening.

  62. Royce,
    I think with many of these blogs (present blog excepted 🙂 ) is that we find out more about the author than we do the topic.

    Like the guy who wrote about the 7 lies – what was the point, what was the context. As in most cases, it turns people into pharisees (I don’t do that) or it turns them inward towards their own guilt (oh that is so me, I am such a worm)

  63. Chile says:

    Erunner, it is definitely a hard road to walk. I feel for ya. It’s the guilt of not being able to feel warmth towards someone like that that hurst us. But cut yourself a break. You’ve tried and you can’t make her safe or even civil. I’d listen to your relatives telling you to allow some space between you two.

    I have one family member that is difficult, but civil enough at times that we can interact a little, but no visits. Living 2,000 miles away helps a lot. Keeping communication to a minimum helps also. But in this situation we can love her by being civil with her and not allowing her to run us over. We treat her in a respectful manner, but don’t let her continue her disrespectful rants in our ear range. She’s never allowed around the kids.

    I have another family member that sounds like yours. After decades of trying, we finally decided that no communication was the best way to love her. All interactions devolve into damaging episodes so we simply have to let this one go. If this person ever gave us any reason to believe there was some sort of change, we’d cautiously check it out; but it’s just not likely. If this person reaches their death bed and it’s beneficial for me to visit, I might. But like you, the damage is irreversible without a miracle. And these kinds of miracles are about as frequent as the sun standing still. Yes, it can and has happened, but the chance is miniscule.

    I’m ecstatic for those who have restoration stories; but in the meantime, it’s not wise to continue stepping back into space of the other swinging their fist, so to speak.

  64. Chile says:

    I’m glad that Bob Jones has reversed it’s bad decision to end their agreement with GRACE. But I’m also cautious. Their neck is on the line.

    Bad = They didn’t choose on their own to do the right thing when the issue first occurred. Better = They succumbed to pressure and hired GRACE.
    Bad = They didn’t do the right thing when they ended their agreement with GRACE.
    Better = They succumbed to pressure and rehired GRACE.

    If pressure forces them to do right, then so be it. But that’s not the same as doing it because they have integrity and care about the victims more than their selfish ambitions.

    We’ll see what comes next …

  65. Chile says:

    Re: Babylon @7

    Why Is Elevation Church The Best Place To Work?
    Note: 1, 3, 7 and 16.

    1. We serve a lead pastor who seeks and hears from God.
    3. We serve a lead pastor we can trust.
    7. We serve a lead pastor who pours into us spiritually and professionally.
    16. We serve a lead pastor who goes first.

  66. Furtick just brings creepy to a whole new level.

  67. Xenia says:

    Has anybody here read the book Jesus Calling? I remember be warned away from an older book by a different author, God Calling, because it sounded like occultic automatic writing. I would think only certain kinds of women’s ministry groups would like this sort of book? It reminds me of the writings of Margery of Kempe and Julian of Norwich, Medieval Catholic ladies who believed God gave them long romantic messages.

    As for the Seven Lies article…. I think these bloggers can’t think of anything to write about and just make up lists: 8 reasons kids hate church, 12 reasons men hate church, 42 rotten things Christians say, 23 mistaken ideas Christians have about money…. etc. etc. (Michael’s Monday morning Things I Think doesn’t fall into this category. I don’t think I am alone when I say I really look forward to Monday morning because of Michael’s Things he Thinks.)

  68. erunner says:

    Chile, Thank you for your words.

  69. I had someone read some extracts to me once.
    I sort of called out what I found wrong in it.
    You want to show me something you learned from scripture, fine.
    Sorry, I don’t care for people writing and making it sound like it is the Lord.
    That stuff sets off alarm bells in my head.

  70. Steve Wright says:

    That article about Driscoll’s doctor is (for lack of a better word) fascinating. Just…wow.

  71. I think the article said it was inspired by “God Calling.”

  72. Jim says:

    Really good article on dealing with spiritual abuse.

    “weep with those who weep….”

  73. Hey MLD,
    Do you know if Luther left any recipes for his beer?
    Now that would be cool, brew a beer that Luther drank.

  74. Wasn’t Luther beer just Near Beer (remember that? Just like Jesus wine wasn’t really wine?? 😉

  75. Which reminds me (I don’t know why) but next week is Ash Wednesday and the beginning of Lent

  76. Bob says:


    Near beer? Why bother at all. Kind of like drinking any of the “lite” beers out there.

    Got to have flavor!

  77. Lol…not from the article I just read.
    Seems he preferred Einbecker and gave sermons on moderation.

  78. Luther was a fun guy regardless what RB says. 🙂
    When you read Luther’s Table Talks you need to take them with a grain of salt. They were informal classes he held with students in the bar. Now, I don’t think Luther would be drunk, I am sure he could rink them all under the table

    However, the Table Talk notes were taken by drunk students. So they may not have gotten it down word for word – or in some cases even followed along.

  79. Bob, the near beer was my poke at those who say either Jesus didn’t really drink wine or that it was 10 parts water.

    I’ll bet Jesus woke up with a headache a few mornings.

  80. brian says:

    Church growth / vision casting seminar I wonder if Mr. furtick took the course. Be advised is pretty racy.

  81. Xenia says:

    Lent starts on Monday in Ortholandia. It starts with Forgiveness Vespers where we all prostrate ourselves before each other and ask each other’s forgiveness.

    We went to Costco and stocked up on cans of beans and bags of rice, peanut butter and pasta. I have a few sins I am going to work on this year… we’ll see how that goes.

    During Lent I usually don’t post here but if Michael is going to continue his church history series I will participate with that.

    Lent means lots of church services, some of the most heart-wrenching beautiful services of the calendar year.

    It is boot camp for Christians.

  82. David sloane says:

    Way back in 1967 Lonnie Frisbee shared his copy of “Listen, The Lord” with me. It was a precursor to the original “God Calling” book.

    I recall my young reaction upon reading it, ” Gee this is better then the Bible.” Of course today my opinion has changed vastly. Although I do have a signed autographed copy of “Jesus Calling” in which the author wrote a short personal prophecy to me in the front of it.

    I had no idea her book would be a big deal when I first spoke with her. She was such a nice lady and I could tell that there was something special about her. Ian blessed to read that she had success in the publishing world.

    I am baffled by the popularity of her journal.

    I am going to have to comb my library to find it and check it out again.

  83. RiBo says:

    MLD said, “People can point to the bible and the atonement to warrant child abuse because God hung his son on a cross.”

    Apples and Automobiles. Not even in the same universe of an analogy.

    “On Jews and Their Lies” is very specific, very thorough and very targeted and very much a direct call to violence against a group of people.

  84. Chile says:

    I don’t like devotional type books because it’s all about the authors ideas and I need the Word to feed on. I need to be less on guard if a person heads in a wrong direction subtly. But my son received “Jesus Calling” as a gift and he insisted I read it.

    I was pleasantly surprised! I haven’t found anything that I think doesn’t jive with Scripture. I have been touched by it on many occasions and see why so many others like it, as well. It’s not a replacement for Scripture, as we all know, but they are scriptural thoughts presented in a thought provoking way.

  85. RiBo says:

    E, I don’t know anymore. I think the situation is hopeless. I don’t trust him and I think he is a total liar and con. The only thing that could possibly open the door would be for him to tell the truth and take responsibility but that will never happen. He is lying about the physical abuse, I was there, I saw it and it also happened to me. I witnessed and was directly affected by the other weird stuff like exhibitionism and showering on occasion (though not touched inappropriately). He’ll never cop to any of it. I believe Paul, especially since I know Bob is lying about the other stuff.

    It was never really much of a relationship anyway. We lived in constant fear and it was a fear-based relationship nothing similar to the mutual love I have in the relationship with my kids.

    I don’t think Bob really knows how to love the way I love my kids and the way my kids love me. I think he’s a deeply broken person who is also talented and good at creating a persona and keeping up appearances outside his private life (though much has spilled out over the years).

  86. RiBo says:

    “What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

    First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly ­ and I myself was unaware of it ­ will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

    Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

    Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

    Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: “what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord.” Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people’s obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], “You are Peter,” etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

    Fifth, I advise that safe­conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (…remainder omitted).

    Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God’s blessing in a good and worthy cause.

    Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.”–Martin Luther

    Gee, I wonder how the Nazis could have made such a stretch as to say Luther gave them a rationale for persecuting the Jews?

  87. Chile says:

    RB, If it were just another errant pastor, it would be easier to just write him off. The fact that this man was supposed to care for you as a father, and that he’s married to your mom, makes this sad beyond words.

  88. RiBo says:

    Chile thanks for your empathy.

    I don’t really “feel” anymore with that situation, I think I’ve gone through the grieving process and just accept it. I just have to fight and protect my family here and stand up for what’s right and make as big a positive dent as I can with regards to the issues about that situation that motivate me the most and cause me the most disgust: child abuse and using Jesus as a means of personal gain with no financial transparency.

    The church must do better, the stuff shouldn’t be tolerated, but it is not only tolerated it is enabled many times over as evidence in CC.

  89. Bob says:


    Some say new wine is grape juice.


  90. brian says:

    I am by no means an expert on Martin Luther, but when the peasants in Germany took his “sola scriptora” to its logical conclusion and revolted against the vile practices of the Princes and other evil leaders. Luther wrote a “tome” Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants. Up to 100K peasants (that’s people) were slaughtered with a deep holy vengeance for the prince of peace. Luther stood with the princes and defended the use of the sword for the glory of God. I never did quite understand why God, the creator of the entire universe, needs a sword but that is another post. Personally I think one of the vilest evil and satanic lies ever perpetrated on humanity has been the Divine right of Kings. Just a thought.

  91. Chile says:

    You’re welcome, RiBo.

    And I agree that these things should not be tolerated.

  92. Chile says:

    You all can sign up to be insulted by Luther at the click of a button:

  93. RiBo says:

    brian, agreed.

    Chile, LOL! Luther is the insult king. I try, but I can’t hold a candle to Luther.

  94. brian says:

    I personally think Luther struggled with deep mental health issues brought on by very serious long term medical issues, family dynamics (especially his father), and a “superstitious leaning” personality. I would also add, it is impossible for us to really get inside his head, he lived in an entirely different universe. I do not think it is possible for us to live his world view, understand it yes, live it, we cant.

  95. Chile says:

    Just here as the late night entertainer!

  96. brian says:

    I was thinking of Yalta a drunk (well actually all of them drank), a megalomaniac, and a person who died in house of what some said was his mistress. Of course those are euphemisms as Churchill did not drink that much, Roosevelt had a complicated relationship with his wife and Stalin, well he was just a monster. None of these men could have made it in today’s shallow political / PC world. But I think some of us wish we had a Churchill and a Roosevelt, Stalin, well good reddens. Sorry I am a bit bias when it comes to Stalin he was a monster.

  97. brian says:

    “You act and speak as a bride of the devil, expressing what the devil inspires. All blasphemous words of this kind are nothing but childish, mad, sacrilegious ideas, and lies which are not worthy of answer.”

    “How is it, then, that you drivel like people in their second childhood?”

    “The reward of such flattery is what your crass stupidity deserves. Therefore, we shall turn from you, a sevenfold stupid and blasphemous wise person.”

    “You should not write a book before you have heard an old sow fart; and then you should open your jaws with awe, saying, “Thank you, lovely nightingale, that is just the text for me!”

    LOL even at my best I cant insult myself like this, I bow to the master.

  98. Chile says:

    He’s got some even better ones.

  99. brian says:

    Chile LOL yes he does.

  100. RB,
    I hear your state has a lot of anti-semitism to fight. Why don’t you go focus on that?
    Lot more practical application.

  101. RiBo says:

    Derek, that is largely a myth. Very very few, mostly in the north part of the state and I do fight against it all the time by speaking out and sharing my opinions locally. Half the state’s population is in the southwest and is very libertarian and very opposed to the ideology Luther espoused in “On Jews and Their Lies”

  102. RiBo says:

    Chile, brian, those are hilarious! LOL

  103. Largely a myth…lol
    Time for someone to wake up and open their eyes.

    Here let me put it another way. I get tired of every thread becoming a debate on Martin Luther and anti-semism. I am sure I am not the only one. If we have to hear this all the time, then everytime you do this i will have to bring this up. Later, i will find supporting evidence. And, northern part doesn’t work, still same state.
    So, prove that your state is not a bastion of anti-semitism. It is a well established fact, undeniable, one might say.
    I will be reading later in the day to see how you can defend such things.

  104. I don’t mind RB talking of Luther and antisemitism (although it was really anti judaic which is different) – but I do object to his weeping for that poor Hitler and those deceived Nazi’s. I object to his exoneration of their action … if only they had not picked up Luther’s writings, they would have never even conceived the idea of the Holocaust.

  105. RiBo says:

    It’s a myth Derek, it’s in low amounts here, but 1 is too many IMO.

    Your state has many more hate groups according to SPLC.

    And, the issue is speaking out against it, and I do. It’s very rare, but I actually had some dudes with swastickas tatooed to their necks in the store many years ago. It was a tense conversation as I expressed my disagreement with them and we were all armed.

  106. RiBo says:

    The links had a story about Martin Luther, it noted his beer making and ignored his anti-semitism (which many aren’t aware of). It is on topic and good to point it out. Rather than defending and apologizing for it, you should agree that it was wrong and acknowledge it as fact, but your intellectual dishonesty and pride seems to get the better of you time and again.

  107. RiBo says:

    MLD, I don’t exonerate hilter and the nazis at all, they are guilty of the crimes they committed agains the Jews, even if they were inspired and given the rationale by Luther.

  108. “So, prove that your state is not a bastion of anti-semitism. It is a well established fact, undeniable, one might say.
    I will be reading later in the day to see how you can defend such things.”

    This is freekin awesome. =)

    I applaud anyone, anywhere, especially a man who lives in TheSouth, who stands against antisemitism, racism and bigotry, and calls out :: an entire state :: and not just a region of it.

    Yes, and let’s call out any state which has the confederate flag as part of its state flag or license plates.

    Now, regarding Arizona’s current BS “religious freedom” law which was crafted to discriminate against gays…

  109. RiBo says:

    “I will be reading later in the day to see how you can defend such things”

    I don’t defend it, I speak against it. It’s not prevalent and in the vast minority here, but 1 is too many and we have 9 “hate groups” in our state and I’ve come across two nazi skinheads in the 8 years I’ve been here and vocally disagreed with them to their face.

  110. RiBo,
    “And, the issue is speaking out against it, and I do. It’s very rare, but I actually had some dudes with swastickas tatooed to their necks in the store many years ago. It was a tense conversation as I expressed my disagreement with them and we were all armed.”

    Proud of you, that is a test of graciousness.

  111. RiBo says:

    G said, “Proud of you, that is a test of graciousness.”

    It was also a test of self-control as it was pretty offensive and uncomfortable and I started to get angry and when I get angry the “fight or flight” mode kicks in and it’s usually “fight”. Kept my cool while still disagreeing and letting them know me and my store was not on board with their agenda and ideology.

  112. RiBo,
    Very Jesus-like of you. I’m sure He is glad you chose to act, speak and conduct yourself in a way that He commends.

    I admire your example.

  113. erunner says:

    RiBo, Thanks for responding. Although our circumstances are much different there’s common ground we share such as dealing with family when things go sideways and having to make decisions about responding to them.

    You stated to Chile you really don’t “feel” anymore about the situation and that’s pretty much where I’m at.

    Your story is much more difficult than where I’m at but it helps me to relate to you a bit more as to how things can impact us especially as this is very recent for me and all of the feelings are fresh.

    I do hope good things come for you but have come to realize that restored relationship(s) might not be a part of that. Thanks again.

  114. Chile says:

    RiBo @106–“The links had a story about Martin Luther, it noted his beer making and ignored his anti-semitism (which many aren’t aware of). It is on topic and good to point it out. Rather than defending and apologizing for it, you should agree that it was wrong and acknowledge it as fact,…”

    This is an excellent point.

    I know you already know this, but RiBo, anyone reading this knows that you made a clear and salient point.

  115. Chile says:

    Thanks, Erunner. I wish peace for you and your issue, as well.

  116. RiBo says:

    Thanks guys 🙂 I’m used to getting blasted on here, appreciate the input and encouragement.

  117. Bob says:

    Since no one wants to comment on the gay marriage lawsuit over the church use I thought I would throw in a comment. Of course even before reading it the G-guy is already pumping up his blood pressure and is ready to have a coronary, but here goes.

    These two men are suing the church they attend over its use and I believe it brings up an interesting question about church facilities and buildings, “who owns them?”

    They said this, ““We feel we have the right as parishioners in our village to utilize the church we attend to get married.”

    In a CC it appears generaly there is no membership and therefore the people are mere attenders of the facility they call church and by default the church belongs to the leadership or organization rather than those who come in through the doors every week. To me it seems modeled after stores like WallMart or Target where the people are “guests” who come into purchase what they are selling. If this is truly the case then the people have no rights of use beyond those given to them by law, because the facilities are not owned by those who attend there.

    Now in the case of traditional churches and these two men, who actually owns the church? Are they members who support the community in which the physical church exists, do they provide financial support for it, and have they been knowingly excluded or include for their sexual preferences in the past or present?

    I would submit the local church in their case is actually the property of the community, those who attend and support its existence. If this is the case unless the two men have been excluded for their sexual preference in the past they have the right to use the facilities in an community approved manner.

    Do I agree in any form with the approval of gay marriage ? No, but they are bringing up a point of law and the ability for a community to decide how its facilities are to be used. The argument comes down to ownership and the reason for the church facility and its availability to the community.

    You still alive G-guy?

  118. Bob,
    I agree – if they have been brought into their church in full membership, that allowed for their unrepentant homosexual activities then the church should avail to them availability of all facilities available to other members.

  119. Steve Wright says:

    MLD – You have membership. What rights do the people have to the facilities at your place? Rights that can’t be taken away by the leadership or even the majority of the congregation.

    If your leadership allows the facility to be used for something unique for one of the members, have they set precedent that requires similar unique usages for everyone else who is a member?

    Bob- I think you stretch the meaning to the word “belong” – the issue is oversight. That’s what a bishop is, the overseer – and there is nothing wrong with including the stewardship of the property in that oversight.

  120. Rob Murphy says:

    I thought I had problems with fellow band-mates, but this is a whole different level. Not fun link.

  121. Steve,
    I think every church organization that wants to avoid this in the future needs to really tie up the loose ends. Who does the officiating? Do the wedding couple need to take instruction classes? Do they need to confess anything before or during the ceremony?

  122. Steve Wright says:

    I agree with you there, on wedding related issues. Absolutely. Have something firm, established.

    I’ve heard rumblings (and seen one definitive example) of CC churches stopping weddings done on their property – which I think is a pathetic surrender and plays right into the hands of the enemy rather than standing on the call of God.

  123. “the G-guy is already pumping up his blood pressure and is ready to have a coronary”

    Oh my, Bob, you really do not know me at all.

    Bob, you need a hobby.
    You need a life.
    You need to focus on someone, anyone else other than me.

    “You still alive G-guy?”
    I am more alive than you can imagine. Thriving, actually.

    Hope you can figure out a way to do the same without making yourself so small.

    I have better things to do with my life like earning a living, expanding my skills, encouraging like minded individuals in the journey.

  124. Steve,
    I think that the solution may be for churches to get out of the marrying business. Have everyone married in a civil environment (justice of the peace, the county recorder, Capt Stubbing) and then have a church blessing ceremony with the white gown and tux etc.

    This way, the pastor is not an agent of the state and the state cannot tell you whose marriage you can or cannot bless.

    The fly in the ointment are the liberal churches who have no problem marrying homosexuals.

  125. Steve Wright says:

    MLD – I hear you, but I don’t retreat. Pastors were marrying people for centuries before the state got involved and so letting the state usurp our right before God is not something I am prone to do. I have lots more options I would exhaust first….one of which could even be a jail cell.

    God did not call us to “bless” what the state ordained.

  126. erunner says:

    An old friend who used to post as Cash many years ago wrote for my blog about PTSD. All this time later he is published by a reputable website. It’s well worth your time to read.

  127. one of which could even be a jail cell.

    Pretty hard to marry people from jail 🙂

    Luther did not want to marry people. He wanted to gather all the married people once a year on the steps of the church and bless their marriages

  128. Bob says:


    I have to ask, why do you seem to resort to personal attacks like “small” and “ignorant” so quickly?

    And then things like “I have better things to do… with like minded people”.

    Dude you’re posts reveal problems and it isn’t me.

    You don’t even get the seemingly irony of my supporting these men in their quest/lawsuit over church use.

    So sad, not so sorry.


  129. Bob says:


    The issue is many things, but it believe what is at heart here is who does the church belong to. No I’m not referring to Jesus here at all, but literally the physical facilities.

    Are the attenders there to support the institution or is it the reverse the institution is there for the benefit of the people? I believe it is the later.

  130. Steve Wright says:

    If the qualification is to not refer to Jesus at all, then I admit a loss as to how to discuss the use of physical facilities. 🙂

  131. Bob,
    The real question is public access. If your church is open to marrying anyone – member or not, they will probably get stuck marrying homosexuals.

    If you only marry members, and only that churches clergy does the officiating, and if you require pre marital instruction and require some some confession of faith either to the pastor beforehand or at the ceremony – i think you can very easily get around homosexual marriages.

  132. I agree with MLD and am headed in that direction on weddings.
    1. Tell couples I do not sign marriage licenses
    2. Have them get a civil ceremony to legalize the marriage
    3. Have them come to receive a Christian wedding covenant.

    Thus LEAVE the beast system to the the beast and those who take his mark:)

    One Foot Out the Door Dread

  133. Bob,
    ” ;( ”

    Crocodile tears from one who wants to provoke, wrestle, pin & win.

    I respond to you merely in kind.

    You are small because you want to provoke me like all the other bullies in my life who I have vanquished.

    Go play with some other kid on the playground and figure yourself out.

  134. Steve Wright says:

    I just heard that the local authorities are kicking out our homeless ministry that has been going on for 19 years in a local park. And of course, not because there are no more homeless people…in fact there are as many as ever.

    Now…we will open ourselves to all sorts of new liability however it turns out we attempt to keep doing what the Lord has ordained His Bride be doing.

    But do we let fear of liability end what God has called the Church to do.

    I could just as easily justify that there are all sorts of beast system poverty programs and turn people in that direction…right?

    So while I do, sincerely, understand what many of my brother pastors are saying on the marriage issue, I just can’t agree. This is something worth fighting for in my opinion. But we each have our lines to cross…we each serve the Lord, and only answer to Him. He will guide us all.

  135. Steve Wright says:

    I would also caution any pastor from doing a non-legal covenant ratifying ceremony without first verifying that the state-officiated marriage has been completed, properly filed and is official.

    If the goal is to avoid liability. Because that could open up a HUGE problem.

    And recognizing that, it seems to me quite a mixed message to ask the couple “Has the state married you? Officially? Good. Now I can then ratify you before God”

    Likewise, it is a mixed message for me to treat someone as married in the eyes of God when they only have had a state justice of the peace wedding. Some guy cheats on his wife, he isn’t going to say “Well, all we did was have a judge marry us..we weren’t REALLY married in the eyes of God yet”

    Sorry pal. You are.

  136. Steve,
    I ask this as I don’t know – do you see a biblical mandate for the Church to marry.

  137. Steve Wright says:

    Nope. And I have no such mandate. I have no problem telling a heterosexual couple that I refuse to marry them for several possible reasons. Even if they attend our church. Even if they were members (if we had membership).

    But you are one of the “Lets’ learn from church history crowd. What does history have to say about marriage and the Church’s role.

  138. What I meant was that if you got out of the marriage business are you breaking some biblical command or mandate?

  139. Steve Wright says:

    I understand the question. And it is legitimate. I guess I could ask the same of you and schools. You have said Lutherans are very big on having schools. There is no Biblical mandate for your church to do so, but there is certainly a general principle established by God as to the value of educating children, coupled with the conviction of your Lutheran leadership that education is God’s will for your church as to the investment of its time and resources.

    Would you guys retreat and shut down all the schools, or fight for your legal rights as long as you had legal right to fight for?

  140. You are not fighting for your legal right to marry folks – in the end you would be fighting for a right to NOT marry some folks.

    I made the early suggestion to tighten up the criteria of who gets married and how in your church. It would self eliminate homosexual marriages.2nd suggestion is how to have a Christian marriage blessed by the church.

  141. Bob says:


    The issue isn’t my church, but how does a church hold itself within the community. These men are in the UK and the place of the church is a whole lot different than here in the USA.
    What I thought was interesting is how their situation applies to say a non-member church like CC where the leadership are really the owners.

    Additionally, since the USA considers church a public benefit and good by allowing tax break for contributors, can the question be raised that churches recognized by the USA/State be subject to public demands?

    Another example is BD whose church does not seek recognition at all, so since they are not 501c3 recognized would the USA/State have a say in their public use?

    In the end you are probably right, churches will just limit their access and quit doing marriages.


    “I respond to you merely in kind.”

    I have never called you a name nor have I belittled your beliefs or ideas. You sir are simple prejudice, intolerant of those outside your circle and when confronted resort to personal attacks.

    I have responded quickly and strongly when either you or RB have raised the name calling and personal attack flag. You may also noticed I encouraged RB to present his information and views if he would do so in a civil manner. You know what? He is doing so recently quite well and I enjoy reading his views since.

    Am I the PP police? No, but I really don’t like intolerant people and you seem to be one to people who are outside your circle.

    Of course I’m just an anonymous Bob so my opinion really means nothing to you at all. Live well and prosper!

  142. Thanks Bob

  143. Steve Wright says:

    MLD – I agreed with your criteria about tightening up requirements. That will me a must for all churches.

    In the end, my fight is freedom to discriminate – same as your would be with the schools as soon as they told you that you could not refuse to hire a teacher who was a homosexual (or Catholic or Muslim etc) It is not the right to educate children, but the right to discriminate who you allow to educate your children. Same thing.

    Or…what if the state said you guys could have a school, but there could be no prayer or chapel or Bible classes as part of it. Same thing. You want the right to discriminate in your curriculum and use of school hours.

    Because that’s what God does. Many people who may want to get married have not been brought together by God. They can get married elsewhere. Just like a parent can have their child educated elsewhere than your school if they don’t like your rules.

  144. Steve,
    I am not arguing with you or against your points at all.
    But as I told Bob, I think this is a public access issue. If the government got in our face about school, we would have the same option – not allow the school to be public access – you would have to be a church member to attend or teach at the school – now you have no one offended.

  145. Steve Wright says:

    Yeah, but the government could still argue they have the right to tell you how to run your school – even if just for your members. Under the umbrella of “protecting the children”

    Look at the Obamacare stuff now even…..

  146. Steve – then we get the guns out. 😉

  147. Steve Wright says:

    Another aspect to this is for a church to not charge for their weddings. We don’t charge anything. Once you start charging, it is much harder to discriminate when people show up who have money that spends just as good as another couple’s money.

  148. So while we are talking about this, I just received an email from the LCMS about changes that the IRS is making regarding “Responsible Parties” related to the church’s ITIN and EINs.

    Damn government sticking their nose in my church business. Should i tell them to go take a flying leap?

  149. Steve Wright says:

    No…because your leadership voluntarily put yourself under IRS jurisdiction.

  150. Actually, we are very compliant with the government – both on the church side and the school side. It’s part of our vocation to be good citizens within the community.

  151. We are actually going through some of this ‘so called’ church state stuff right now with the Boy Scouts.We sponsor Boy, Girl and Cub Scout troops. As you may know, there are many changes blowing in the wind about homosexual scout leaders.

    So, what is our position going to be. The Boy Scout troop just asked us if they could open their bank account through us – which is common. We denied their request and told them to use their plan B. The reason we did so was although we want to support the scouts 100% we also want a quick escape route if we need one some time down the road.

  152. Any minister who decides to leave the system will have to verify that couples have legally married. But count on this; Some minister somewhere will say the system is not their problem and will end up doing weddings that are purely religious.

    The mess they make will be their problem. However, I suspect they can do it whether the government approves or not. Their problem would be liability. I suppose they could be sued.

    Government’s compelling interest is really children and property rights. Otherwise, government doesn’t care who does what.

  153. Steve Wright says:

    Actually, we are very compliant with the government – both on the church side and the school side. It’s part of our vocation to be good citizens within the community.
    Of course. As do we.

    And as long as the state does not overstep its bounds, all will be fine.

  154. Steve Wright says:

    Dread, I won’t marry someone who does not have the license, ready to go and be signed, the moment the ceremony is over.

  155. ” It is a well established fact, undeniable, one might say.”
    Anyone guess who I borrowed that one from?
    I figured if RB can tack it onto every assertion he makes here…well why not.
    Typical that the reactionaries don’t ever pick up on subtle things like that.

    Good to see tolerant G making sure to attack my own stereotypes with some of his own.
    Oh, you progressives…..

    Sad link here.

    One abortion clinic in the whole state and look at the sheer numbers of dead babies.
    Abortion in America is a sin period, but it is especially evil towards minorities.

  156. I think Dread’s number #132 will probably be the only way to go soon.

  157. Derek,

    Are you saying that the Confederate flag should abide as a thing in today’s Untied States of America?

    I am indeed intolerant of that flag and anyone who supports it and its notions and legacy.

  158. Steve,

    I will gladly perform a ceremony that is religious for a couple who have a SIGNED marriage license from the state. My point is that they bring their license and upon verifying I perform the wedding.

    I am talking about OPTING out as an agent of the corrupt system.

  159. Josh Hamrick says:

    G – just curious, as this does not describe me…but would you say that people who have ancestors who fought for the Confederacy need to denounce their heritage?

    BD – Don’t you think you are just kicking the can down the street a bit? the final issue does not seem to be legal marriage, but 100% total approval. It seems that your plan may buy some time, but soon enough the lawsuits will come for those who will not perform the strictly religious ceremonies.

  160. Josh,
    You pose a great question…

    “…would you say that people who have ancestors who fought for the Confederacy need to denounce their heritage?”

    Would you say that people who have ancestors who fought for Imperial Japan during World War 2 need to denounce their heritage?

    Would you say that people who have ancestors who fought for Nazi Germany need to denounce their heritage?

    Would you say that people who have ancestors who fought for Pol Pot need to denounce their heritage?

    Would you say that people who have ancestors who fought to eradicate Native Americans need to denounce their heritage?

    Would you say that people who have ancestors who practiced Apartheid in South Africa need to denounce their heritage?

    Would you say that people who have ancestors who fought for [insert name of oppressive ideology, government, politician, dictator, theologian here] need to denounce their heritage?

    Yes. Certainly. Absolutely. Without a doubt. Loudly. Clearly.

  161. Who said anything about the confederate flag, G?
    Geez, you must have nothing better to do.

  162. I brought up the Confederate flag since it was cogent to earlier comments about Idaho, RiBo’s discussion about Nazi Skinheads.

  163. Josh Hamrick says:

    Appreciate the answer, G. I don’t know, though. While we should all own the mistakes of our ancestors, and atone for them where appropriate, usually erasing a culture is counter intuitive and only gives way to a more abusive regime. Good food for thought though.

  164. Thanks Josh.
    My dad was from east Texas, grew up in poverty, grew up respecting black folk as “separate but equal” before it was codified in law. That was progressive in their day.

    I admire that about him and my grandmother and grandfather, they did the best they could and during hard times of the 1930s they fed townfolk regardless of race.

  165. Why should we own the mistakes of our ancestors – I don’t expect anyone to ‘own’ my mistakes.They were mistakes made by previous generations and they can be judged on it … not me.

  166. Not a single one of my ancestors killed an Indian – not a single ancestor og mine owned a slave. I have no apologies to make or reparations to pay.

    Oh waith, my ancestors were jewish – I may need to write a check to the restore the Amalikite population organization.

  167. Josh Hamrick says:

    That is admirable, G. My Dad was definitely a product of his small town southern upbringing. He didn’t outwardly hate or want to hurt anyone, but it was certainly ingrained in his being that white people were inherently superior to blacks in some way. Seeing his growth in the past decade or so since Jesus came into his life has been miraculous. One sister adopted African American twins, and my other sister married a black man and had two sons of their own. My dad has loved all of them all just like he loves me. Truly amazing.

  168. Josh Hamrick says:

    I don’t know MLD, seems that there are many lessons to be learned from the mistakes of past generations. To just say, “but that wasn’t me” doesn’t seem very helpful in moving forward.

  169. But they weren’t my ancestors. I have moved forward very well, except everytime some bleeding heart liberal grabs me and says you should feel guilty because of what happened to the Indians or the slaves.

  170. Josh Hamrick says:

    So, you’ve been misidentified then. I didn’t imply that your ancestors did anything wrong. Mine did.

  171. Josh,
    “My dad has loved all of them all just like he loves me.”
    That is, after all, the goal of Jesus coming here to live among us, but it takes a conscious effort of will and confronting one’s “stuff”.

    Your dad is a great man and he raised a great son.

  172. Josh Hamrick says:

    Thanks G. He is a great man.

  173. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    And American Indians were selling each other out to white settlers to settle long-held land disputes. There’s no culture that has nothing to denounce. Not a single one. If there’s nothing to denounce within your own heritage you probably don’t know it well enough yet. 🙂 The trouble is that people who only see things to denounce probably have the same problem as those who think there’s nothing to apologize for. There will never be a culture that isn’t built on atrocities.

  174. Steve Wright says:

    There will never be a culture that isn’t built on atrocities.
    I thought of that when those fighting for Imperial Japan was mentioned. I guess much better to be with FDR and the side of the country that violated the Constitutional rights of Ameican citizens of Japanese descent during that same war. Like my former co-worker (just a young girl) and her parents experienced in the camps.

    Much better to be on the side of the nation that had just as virulent “no Jews allowed” laws in the 30s and also sent a boatload of Jewish refugees on the St. Louis back to Europe to an almost certain death in 1939

    So who has the “good guy heritage” anyway?

  175. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    So called Christians murdered and I denounce them as such-“Murderers” of Native Americans and other indingenous peoples. We can criticize Islam all we want but they are only 500 years behind Christians in murdering for Religion.

  176. PP Vet says:

    My great-grampa had $200K (approx current $$) in slaves taken away by the Emancipation Proclamation.

    Worth more than his land.

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