Loose Ends

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  1. Concerned says:

    The first prayer request they posted is to pray for their son and daughter in law who are missionaries with their young child and very very ill.

    I don’t agree with much of what they say, but I am praying for them.

  2. Bob Sweat says:

    Glad I read this before going to work. My staff know that I read Nouwen, and they also know that my daughter worked for Campolo while in grad school, so my pink shirt might have been misinterpreted. 🙂

  3. Believe says:

    The young man went deep into the homosexual lifestyle…because that is his besetting sin tendency…and his discovery of pornography threw gasoline on the flame.

    My brother was born into the most strict fundamental OT household you can imagine…it didn’t keep him from being homosexual.

    We are born with sin. Some are born heterosexual and are tempted to fornicate and commit adultery. Some are born homosexual and are tempted to fornicate and practice homosexual sex.

    Doesn’t matter which type of church you grow up in…or whether you ever go to church.

    That’s reality.

    This statement concerns me, “Shortly after Michael graduated from high school, he made the announcement to his parents that he was gay. There had been no indication of this throughout his youth,”

    That tells me his parents didn’t really know their son…and weren’t close enough to him for him to be honest with them…or they weren’t listening…or he didn’t trust them and was afraid of them.

  4. Concerned says:


    Do you believe that you are born a pedophile?

  5. Concerned says:

    …not “you” personally….

    Does your brother practice this lifestyle or has the Lord helped him with this?

  6. filbertz says:

    If this becomes a thread that discusses homosexuality, its root causes, and “treatments” we will miss the point worse, if possible, than the LHT lot. Their article is pathetically irresponsible and misguided, one more instance where a simple prayer request gave opportunity for a tirade against their favorite targets. Their logic is twisted more than Alan Iverson’s cornrows. They would have picked up the spare had they gotten Rick Warren into the mix.

  7. Michael says:


    I think “pathetically irresponsible ” is exactly right.

  8. Bob Sweat says:

    Right on Fil!

  9. Another Voice says:

    My first question to LHT would be, “Explain the many stories similar to Michael’s over the past decades, before there was an emergent church movement.”

    They are embracing a logical fallacy.

  10. Michael says:

    That article would be funny if it it wasn’t so warped and dangerous.
    I’m curious to see how far it raises the hate and hysteria level among their like minded comrades.

  11. Sarah says:

    Can I ask the obvious question that the ODMs might, just so we can address it….is there any validity to the thought that the more emergent churches are soft on sin that could leave a door open to someone going down a path of temptation they might have avoided if the ’emergent’ church had given them more tools to resist.

    I don’t think all churches that LHT labels emergent would fall into this….but you know some are. How do we respond thoughtfully to a reactionary article without being reactionary ourselves?

  12. Michael says:


    I share the same concerns…the issue is painful and divisive enough without this kind of crap.

  13. Bob Sweat says:

    To quote Erwin McManus, “The greatest enemy to Christianity is the church”. Oh wait! I’m sure LHT considers McManus an emergent! 🙂

    My daughter just completed a grad program at Eastern Baptist in Philadelphia. Its a program that Campolo put together. Seems my daughter, who loves the Lord, has a compassion for those who, some by their own choice, have been down trodden. While at Eastern, my daughter had the opportunity of working very closely with Campolo. I have to admit, as a Ronald Reagan conservative, I was concerned. But I have been deeply touched by the area my daughter has chosen to minister. Because, quite frankly, its to people that the likes of LHT would cast aside.

    You see my daughter has chosen to love those that many mainline Christians avoid. It has caused me to reevaluate how I feel. Like my daughter, I have not changed my view on sin, but only how I should treat the sinner. She has shown me a new dimension on what Jesus would do.

    Yes, I read the likes of Henri Nouwen and I am touched by a man who had an issue with sin. I read his words and often think, that even though I might deplore homosexuality as a sin, Nouwen had a relationship with God that in many ways I fall short. The Bible says, “The wages of sin is death”. IMO, many Christians have their comfort zones of sin (gossip, hatred, jealousy, selfish ambitions, dissensions, outbursts of wrath, etc.) but focus on the sins that gather all the attention.

    If anyone from LHT has anything negative to say about my daughter, they better not say it to my face. In fact, I’m tempted to say that the type of hatred spewing from the months of many in the ODM’s is the same type of hatred that nailed Jesus to the Cross. After all, Jesus did fit their mold of what the Messiah should be.

    I better stop.

  14. Michael says:


    You pose an excellent question and one I actually considered before I ripped them.

    Your scenario is possible…if we had specifics.

    Instead what we have is an accusation that an undefined, amorphous group cause moral depravity untold and that such depravity would not have happened in the Dombrowskis church.

    What they wrote is irresponsible and incoherent to a reasonable person, because they are not reasonable people.

    A wise man told me once “never negotiate with a terrorist”

    These folks are spiritual terrorists and have to be confronted as they confront.

    I also could be wrong. 😉

  15. Michael says:


    Well said.

    Now this mornings Nouwen:

    “Our most painful suffering often comes from those who love us and those we love. The relationships between husband and wife, parents and children, brothers and sisters, teachers and students, pastors and parishioners – these are where our deepest wounds occur. Even late in life, yes, even after those who wounded us have long since died, we might still need help to sort out what happened in these relationships.

    The great temptation is to keep blaming those who were closest to us for our present, condition saying: “You made me who I am now, and I hate who I am.” The great challenge is to acknowledge our hurts and claim our true selves as being more than the result of what other people do to us. Only when we can claim our God-made selves as the true source of our being will we be free to forgive those who have wounded us.”

  16. centorian says:

    hey Michael!

    if shooting the large animal isn’t enough, come up here in a few weeks and cut firewood with me. That’ll make a man outta ya!!! lol!!!

  17. Nonnie says:

    Pastor, Pastor says:
    April 8, 2010 at 8:05 am
    You nailed this at 7:15. Their minds are so twisted that I am about to suspect a learning disability of some kind

    Please don’t insult people with learning disabilities by comparing them to LHT. :-).

  18. Michael says:


    I’m there! 😉

    You can never be too careful about this sort of thing….

  19. pineapple head says:

    “…more crooked than Allen Iverson’s cornrows”…classic!

  20. centorian says:

    ” I read his words and often think, that even though I might deplore homosexuality as a sin, Nouwen had a relationship with God that in many ways I fall short. ”

    hmmm….. well, maybe yes and maybe no. some of us are deeper thinkers than others, but that in it self doesn’t necessarily make us more “spiritual”, that is, in the godly sense. A gravitation and ability to express the spiritual isn’t by default godliness.

    I’m beginning to wonder if we really understand godliness and can we identify it in ourselves and others? I have people tell me that they think I’m godly. If I trust them I tell them that I’m more of an ass than they would be comfortable knowing about.

    While Jesus told us we would know them (Matthew 7) by their fruits, I think He was talking about their state of regeneration, not neccesarily their likeness to God ( or godliness if that sounds to meta-physical).

  21. Michael says:

    What Nouwen did…was live out what he believed while mortifying his flesh at the same time.

    I can’t seem to do either, so I have immense respect for him.

  22. Nonnie says:

    Pastor, Pastor,
    I am so thankful that men like you are truly discerning and setting an example of what it is to love God’s truth while extending God’s grace.

    We see a lot of people caught up in this kind of “teaching” in the UK. People who have come out of churches that don’t even believe in the Word of God anymore and their reaction is to go to the other extreme of being suspicious of everything that doesn’t fit into certain teachers’ and websites’ tiny boxes.
    I know loving, sincere people who love Jesus with all their hearts but are terrified of doing something, listening to someone, or reading a book by someone their “guru” has labeled as emergent or new age. Men like Billy Graham is are an anathema to many here.
    It just wears me down sometimes and makes me so sad. There is such zeal but little love outside of those tiny boxes.

  23. Michael says:


    Where is the teaching coming from?
    Is it an American import?

  24. Em says:

    Centorian,”hmmm….. well, maybe yes and maybe no. some of us are deeper thinkers than others, but that in it self doesn’t necessarily make us more “spiritual”, that is, in the godly sense. A gravitation and ability to express the spiritual isn’t by default godliness.”

    these are good words to remember, particularly so for those of us less educated or naive – if we’re looking for godliness in a man’s ability to express spiritual thoughts in words (some Arabs are very good at it) – for those of us who believe the day is coming when the ‘elect’ are in danger of being deceived… oops that sounds like thot policing – oh well…

    this is such a good forum because it is so well “policed” IMO 😉

  25. Bob Sweat says:

    I would never equate deep thinking with spirituality! I look at how people choose to live their faith as well. After all, words are cheap!

  26. Bob Sweat says:

    Something tells me that if I hang around here this morning I might really become upset. 😉

  27. Kevin H says:

    I had thought of Sarah’s question, too, when I first read this article. I believe that groups that are soft on sin (and probably some segments of the loosely defined “emerging church” would fall into these groups) can help lead people to fall further into their sin nature. So the ODM’s may have a hint of truth in what they write.

    However, LHT’s article is so ridiculously poorly written and so lacking in showing solid correlations between the emerging church and this instance of homosexuality. It almost sounds like it is saying that the emerging church, along with pornography, “caused” this young man to become homosexual. What a joke. I’m sure the young man was already susceptible to homosexual tendencies. These things don’t just happen by attending a church. Maybe by attending an “emerging church”, he did not get the proper guidance to help him fight off these tendencies. But we can’t tell anything for sure because the article is so scattershot.

    Bob, as for Tony Campolo, I don’t care for some of his theology, but I love his heart and passion. I am from the Philadelphia area so I may have had the opportunity to see and hear Tony a little more than some others. From when I first heard him speak when I was a teenager, I knew I didn’t agree with him on everything even then, but I loved the way he was concerned for others.

    And then soon after I first became familiar with Campolo, I also read a book by Nouwen for the first time and loved it. Despite all of these “influences”, I have somehow miraculously managed to stay on the straight and narrow. 🙂

  28. Nonnie says:

    Michael, Yes, mainly American but several locals who do conferences with the Yanks.

  29. Another Voice says:

    I read Foster’s Celebration of Discipline when I was a fairly new Christian, and really liked it. Fortunately, nobody had ‘warned me’ and this was before the internet and the ODMs.

    After all these years, I still have it in my library (whereas many books are gone or at least boxed up for space reasons).

    I still refer to it from time to time.

    I was asked in seminary once by a professor (who is a truly loving guy with no denominational spirit, yet Biblically conservative to the core) if anyone had read the book. I said I had and I liked it.

    He said he was thinking about using it as a text in a class, and had ordered it to read, but in mentioning this fact, much of the seminary staff had gotten terribly upset. Sad really.

  30. Dave Rolph says:


    Your Nouwen quote was straight from the Lord for me today. I needed it really bad. Thanks for being sensitive to the Lord.

  31. Michael says:

    Bless you, Dave…I’m glad it helped.

  32. Believe says:

    Centy said, “hey Michael!

    if shooting the large animal isn’t enough, come up here in a few weeks and cut firewood with me. That’ll make a man outta ya!!! lol!!!”

    Or…it will be the sequel to “Broke Back Mountain…” 🙂 (JUST KIDDING!!!)

  33. Believe says:

    Centy said, “hmmm….. well, maybe yes and maybe no. some of us are deeper thinkers than others, but that in it self doesn’t necessarily make us more “spiritual”, that is, in the godly sense. A gravitation and ability to express the spiritual isn’t by default godliness. ”

    I agree with this statement.

    Godliness = Holiness.

    Not deep thinking.

  34. Bob Sweat says:

    Another Voice

    I appreciate your comment about Celebration of Discipline. As most know here, Richard is a personal friend that I have known for over 40 years. I have had many conversations (one on one) with him over the years and continue to be bothered by how he is viewed by some. I have never agreed with all that he has written or said, but I know of his love for Jesus Christ.

    I received a copy of Celebration before it was released to the general public. It barely holds together, so you know I have read it many times.

  35. Believe says:

    Concerned said, “Believe,

    Do you believe that you are born a pedophile?

    …not “you” personally….

    Does your brother practice this lifestyle or has the Lord helped him with this?”

    Sexual orientation is a separate issue from pedophilia.

    Pedophilia is agnostic in terms of sexual orientation. There are hetero and homo pedophiles.

    The issue of sexual orientation…which sex you have a natural desire for sexually…is an issue I understand much more clearly now do to my personal direct experiences.

    I am a heterosexual. I am sexually attracted to women (and not men).

    My brother is homosexual. He is sexually attracted to men (and not women).

    I witnessed my brother…from a very early age…exhibiting an attraction to the same things as a female would be attracted to.

    We grew up in the exact same environment.

    Some men “become” bi-sexual…due to being given over to their lusts…and trying anything and everything. Some men are born with a bi-sexual nature.

    Here’s the rub…just because you are “born” with an attraction or tendency or desire…does not make the acting out on it “holy”.

    I am born with the natural desire toward women. It does not excuse fornication or adultery. Just as being born with a “temper”..does not excuse Child Abuse.

    My brother was born homosexual..it does not mean it is not-sinful for him to act out on the natural tendency by engaging in the homosexual act.

  36. Believe says:

    The issue that concerns me with regard to Homosexuality and the Church..is that the issue is “taboo” and somehow has become the top of the list in a false Hierarchy of Sins.

    A pastor / elder, a deacon, a Sunday School teacher, a church member…can all struggle with heterosexual sin, they can struggle with anger, they can struggle with lying, they can struggle with gossiping, they can struggle with gluttony…

    If they are homosexual and struggle with acting on that natural desire…it is a whole different ball-game within the “church”.

    Being homosexual does not preclude one from being “saved”…though we act like it in the “church”.

  37. Another Voice says:

    Hi Bob, I didn’t know that about you and Foster. Feel free to pass it along to him if it would encourage him.

    One thing you wrote ” I have never agreed with all that he has written or said,”

    I don’t know ANYONE to whom I could say that “I have agreed with all that he has written or said” – I don’t agree with all I have written or said in the past, as of today. (I wish we could burn some old tapes that float around out there) How can I hold someone else to that standard?

    If that is the test for our Christian fellowship towards and among those who dare let their voices be heard, then we are in a lot of trouble, aren’t we?

    Then you wrote ” but I know of his love for Jesus Christ”

    AMEN! That is the standard I will go by…

  38. Sarah says:

    AV….I love that…there are things I have written or said I disagree with as well! At least I sure hope there are, as I would hope I am growing and changing over the years.

    Bob, thought I’d share with you the Biblestudy for women starting up at our church this next week: “The focus of the 6 week study will be the Renovare book, “Spiritual Classics”. We’ll visit 6 specific writers on the topics of prayer, meditation, service, study, worship, and celebration. Hope to see you at this casual, discussion facilitated group, open to all women.” 😉

  39. Bob Sweat says:


    I have that book! Enjoy! Can I come as Bobbi? 🙂

  40. BrianD says:

    Bob, how does he differ from Dallas Willard? I have Spirit of the Disciplines, and as I have too many books, shouldn’t get another book for awhile unless I need to get it 😉

  41. Bob Sweat says:

    Willard and Foster are close friends. Willard attended Foster’s first, and only, church where he (Foster) was a senior pastor. Foster has leaned much from Willard who was a professor at the University of Southern California. Richard looks upon Willard as a mentor in mnay ways. They have known one another for 30+ years. I would say that they are alike in many ways. I have heard Willard speak, but never read any of his books. I heard Spirit of the Disciplines is excellent.

  42. Sarah says:

    Bob….sure, we’ll sneak ya in 😉

  43. BrianD says:

    In a less public corner of the web, I saw the TRs try to warn us about the errors of Willard. It ticked me off.

    I also saw someone highly regarded in my church give an excellent testimony as to the effect of Willard on his life and ministry. His, and your, commendations go a long way with me.

    So, if you think highly of Willard, and of Foster, I will be more likely to do the same.

  44. Believe says:

    Kind of ironic to be having the homosexual discussion on a thread called “Loose Ends”…but here goes…

    Something I’ve noted from my time on PP…some seeming inconsistencies.

    I have often argued (as have others) from the perspective that Pastors have an obligation of holiness and accountability…and I’ve been quite hard on not only individual pastors, but the CC System for seemingly tolerating and gracing over many sins of many CC pastors.

    The CC history is littered with sinfulness…it is a movement made of of men…as are others…so this is to be expected.

    My step-dad: Child Abuse (and many other issues).
    Heitzig: Poor stewardship and lying.
    Kempner: a prostitution conviction…sexual sin.

    You can feel free to add to the list and get carpal tunnel in the process 🙂

    We could then, each of us, make a list of our own sins (as non-pastors)…I’d personally crash the Blog…there would be so much info.

    The CC response to their pastors in sin is this: Grace, forgiveness, mercy…if the pastor truly repents…or doesn’t.


    We all want grace, forgiveness and mercy for our sins…and most of us seek repentance…however, we are attached to the flesh…and we still sin. Most of us, over and over again. The same exact sins.

    Here’s my point of contention. And it is a point at a micro-level…that is applicable at a macro-level.

    If Kempner, Heitzig, my step-dad were found to be homosexuals…and had been found to be participating in the homosexual sexual act…would they still be pastors of CC’s?

    Kempner has been disaffiliated…would there even be a board discussion if his sin were the homosexual act? Would CC have even needed to non-arbitrate “arbitrate” the Kempner scandal?


    There is much hypocrisy in the “church” that goes beyond the Pharisetical hypocrisy we see exhibited by our “leaders” who preach one thing and live another.

    There is a hypocrisy of a Hierarchy of Sin.

    Our day and age in Church History is plagued, IMO, with a hypocrisy and bias toward the homosexual community.

    The church is full of sinners. Church boards are full of sinners. The pulpits are full of sinners. Sunday school classrooms are taught by sinners. Deacons are sinners. Elders…sinners. Members…sinners.

    How many homosexuals are pastors, deacons, elders, board members, Sunday school teachers, members, attenders at your local church?

    How many of those same people exhibit every other sin known to man…at one time or another?

    Ask yourself these questions the next time you are tempted to shun or judge a homosexual…or hold the view a homosexual cannot be a Christian.

  45. Believe says:

    If my step-dad were to have been a pedophile…say a homosexual pedophile…in his “past”…though the activity would have hypothetically happened years ago…would he be allowed to continue as a fully functioning CC Dove holding representative?


    When I hear the arguments and defenses that “it was in the past”…”nothing can be done now”…and we need to love him, show grace, forgiveness and mercy…

    It does not square with reality.

    There is a Hierarchy of Sin.

    Public Opinion has more to do with accountability than the Word of God does…in our day and age.

    That is “reality”…as I am experiencing it.

    CC higher-ups…these are the messages you are sending by your inaction and your inconsistent incoherent “we are not a denomination…denomination” System.

    When things inevitably hit the “public” awareness at a much broader level…that will most likely be the trigger for accountability.

    Why is that?

    Is that Biblical? Is that having integrity in ministry? Is it righteous or just?

    Or is it “traditions of men”…or something else?

  46. sue says:

    Believe – enjoyed your comments. To think people really think like those at LHT is a little scary – also on homosexuality, those of us who know homosexuals personally know that most don’t choose it – they discover they are when they hit puperty. I thought when I was a teen that maybe if they got involved with a girl they would see it differently – know better now that I’m older. Has nothing to do with the church they go to obviously. It was really hard for a homosexual teen I knew at cccm when I was young. He tried to suppress his attraction to males, steeped himself in bible studies, etc. – I had a crush on him and I tried – but he couldn’t change who he was although I know he tried.

  47. Dusty says:

    The world will fade away as I lift my hands
    The King is worthy of praise, is the great I am
    The joy You’ve given rings out as I lift my voice
    I’m captivated by Your ways, so I will worship You

    You’ve taken me by love
    You’ve taken me by grace
    You’ve taken me away, I can’t resist
    Because You’ve taken my heart

  48. Believe says:

    Sue….thanks for sharing that example.

    That’s what I witnessed first hand throughout my brother’s life. The son of a CC PK…a homosexual.

    No matter how hard he tried…he couldn’t change his natural attraction to other males.

    Add to that physical child abuse.

    I have always felt for him and I love him. He’s been through a lot in his life.

  49. Cash says:

    Haha!! Hilarious!! I just went to the library last night and checked out three Henri Nouwen books. AND I own a salmon colored shirt. Lol. I just thought it was different geez. 🙂

  50. ( | o )====::: says:

    I think the crusade for reform this side of eternity is essentially futile, and it’s up to us to ignore these many many examples of humans screwing up good movements and organizations. I love Rick Warren’s approach. Back when we were involved at Saddleback we heard time and time again that it’s ok to see things differently or outright disagree with the church and it’s vision but it’s also a cue to consider moving on and asking God to bless all parties as the moving on happens. We left purely over worship style, not doctrine or questions over accountability. Saddleback is solid. Rick listens to his critics, weighs the questions, then prayerfully does what he thinks God would have him do. Gotta say it, it works.

    So, what to do about TheCCMovement for you or others? Stay or go?
    I say if you have the grace then stay, be supportive, grow, be involved and don’t be a child about the weighty “deal breaker” issues.
    But, with your negative experiences, I’d honestly say it’s time for you to close as many chapters as possible, write the words “in God’s hands” at the end of each, move on and look with excitement and expectation toward the new things Jesus is doing in your life.
    Commend your dad, his board, his followers, and the whole CCMovement to Jesus’ capable commitment that He wants the best for those who stay and stand back and get distance from it all. Perhaps as you look back and bless the innocent ones who remain you might see the very presence of the living God as a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night, even with those in that old CCcamp who are in sore need of His intervention.

    I used to wonder why there are so many churches, why people start new ones and leave old ones. Now I think it’s the most beautiful and healthy thing and it’s part of God’s masterful plan and freedom.

    It’s best to simply ignore those who are stuck, especially people like Lighthouse Trails, Moriel and the Alnors. They will attract those who invariably MUST resonate with them, just as there will always be a fringe who believe in Westboro Baptist & Fred Phelps.

    Sane people will continue to see right through them. Some of us just become sane later than others, i know I did because I used to be right in there with them (except for Westboro, even I saw them to be, well, I’ll avoid the words I was going to type…)

    Just be thankful you figured it out earlier than later.

  51. pineapple head says:

    Form what I’ve seen…people of divorce come in a close second to homosexuals as being marked and outcast within the body, while grace and forgiveness flows for all the other sinners…

  52. RangerRandy says:

    And for LHT, the rooster crowing causes the sun to come up.

  53. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Someone above mentioned Campolo. I kinda like the guy and he could be a stand up comic, he is that good.) He seems to be secure in what he believes so he doesn’t play the politically correct game. I think that people disagree more with his politics than they do his theology – but they don’t know how to distinguish the two.

  54. Michael says:


    I think you’re right…

  55. Bob Sweat says:


    Good observation about Tony C.

  56. ( | o )====::: says:

    Welcome back!

    Agree about Campolo.
    His “It’s Friday, But Sunday’s Coming” is a classic!
    Forward to 54:30

  57. ( | o )====::: says:

    Ok, this is the original…

  58. Bob Sweat says:


    Thanks for sharing that youtube! In 1985, in Wichita, KS I heard Tony C. in person tell that story. I will never forget it! BTW, if anyone ever has a chance to hear him in person, sit toward the back, the spit flies! 🙂

  59. Kevin H says:

    Tony C. spoke at my graduation. What a treat. While many commencement speakers are often accomplished academics, they are also often as dull as they are smart. Can’t say that about Tony. I was probably about 20 rows back from the stage, but I still think I felt a drop or two of spittle. 🙂

  60. pineapple head says:

    One year at the youth specialties convention, tony c began to speak…and the entire first two rows broke out umbrellas…

  61. filbertz says:

    the quantity of spit from the speaker is a good measure of the passion he/she expresses.

  62. BrianD says:

    I would not want to be close enough to receive the ‘anointing’ 🙂

  63. Believe says:

    Grendal, your 2:37pm…I believe there will be changes made within the Movement…I really do…and I care too much about it to “move on” in a sense.

  64. ( | o )====::: says:

    Wishing you the best in choosing to stay. I found that I could not, but that is only because I ask too many questions and read the wrong books, listen to the wrong music, and enjoy the wrong blogs 😉

    All kidding aside, I wish you great peace and empowerment as you call for reformation.
    ( | o )====:::

  65. brian says:

    “What Nouwen did…was live out what he believed while mortifying his flesh at the same time.
    I can’t seem to do either, so I have immense respect for him.”

    This is my dilemma, when I became a “Christian” something I often deny as I am not good enough, trust me if you are not you cant join ever, even if God says its ok. But aside from that I lived a celibate life, now I understand if I was a good sinner in search of a Damascus experience I should have contracted at least one VD and had at least one child out of wedlock that I refused to pay child support. As stupid and pathetic as I am I took care of the child and did not contract the STD. I am not sure of why I should be ashamed of that, but I know, for a fact I should be. You see I think even if Father Nouwen repented, became a rabbit anti catholic started a blog cursed all the contemplative prayer groups rich warren mark driscoll etc. He could not, even by the will of God almighty be saved. It just could not happen. I have come to the conclusion, that in the evangelical ODM type religion it is not how many are saved, it is how many go to hell. Basically the Devil wins because everyone but a very very very very very very few even have a chance.

    Personally these ODM folks cant untie Father Nowen’s boots and better repent or it is them that will be lost. Of course I dont want them to be lost, unlike they do us. A personal character flaw on my part, I should find great joy in the vast majority of humanity burning in hell.

  66. Bob Sweat says:

    I open Facebook this morning and see that Jackie has put trash on your wall Michael. To quote her, “Foster has brought doctrines of demons into the church”. Who needs enemies when you have friends like that?

  67. puzzletop says:

    That is a logical fallacy of logic that is being committed in the article.
    Sometimes called a “red herring” or better referred to as a non-sequitar.

    If Joe is raised in a Christian home and church and becomes a homosexual then is anyone safe from being a homosexual?

    If three legged chipmunks are run over by homosexual car drivers is anyone safe from being run over?

    The logic is truly twisted as corn rows –as already commented on by BELIEVE.

  68. brian says:

    Puzzletop I hope you are well, this is an aside, some time ago we were in a discussion about Biology, I totally admit my ignorance, and mentioned that several times in the thread. I have read about 20 books on the subject. Our discussion did not really finish so I was wondering if you could kindly post any resources concerning biology and evolution. This is not an argument nor a wish to start a fight etc. It really is a plea I cant seem to find the Christian side of special Creation. I hope you take no offense at this request. I do wish you and yours the very best.

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