Loose Ends

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89 Responses

  1. WenatcheeTheHatchet says:

    was just reading the Energetic Procession post on HH earlier. Was going to suggest it for the linkathon but can see it’s not necessary. 🙂

  2. Michael says:

    Perry sent it to me earlier today…he’s very well spoken.

  3. Alex says:

    Perry is a bright guy, interesting that he’s not a fan even after HH switched to his Tribe of EO.

    Come to think of it, interesting that two former CRI guys switched to EO.

  4. Michael says:

    Perry is one of the most intelligent people I’ve encountered online…way above my head usually.

  5. Alex says:

    “This guy needs to go away and and get a job in the car wash ”

    Get a job? He’s rich LOL, even if he only gets half of what he says they had as a couple.

    I hope the best for Saeed and Nagmeh. The situation has certainly turned into a very human dumpster-fire but I am the King of dumpster-fires so who am I to judge LOL. Both are still souls and they have kids. I hope they can make peace. I’m sure Saeed feels alone/abandoned after all this has gone down. Not defending him, just reminding us that he’s a human soul as well. Hopefully he can find his purpose and place again and go in a better direction now that he’s freed. I hope Nagmeh and the kids can have a normal life again and find peace and stability as well.

  6. Alex says:

    Also hoping the best for Bob Coy. We’re all sinners and disqualified, but that doesn’t excuse sin and he certainly paid a price for his. It will be interesting to see if that situation has humbled him. He may be in a better place to truly minister than every before having gone through that real-life self-inflicted fall from grace. Hope the best for his wife and kids as well.

  7. Michael says:

    Saeed is a lying sack of manure in grim need of repentance.

    That is all I have to say on the matter.

  8. Alex says:

    “Saeed is a lying sack of manure in grim need of repentance.”

    LOL and there’s that perspective as well haha

  9. Alex says:

    What’s your take on Coy? Is there restoration to the pulpit for fallen pastors if they’ve repented? Does the public have to know all the gory details and all the personal info between him and his wife and family for it to be a legit restoration to the pulpit? Can it be private and still biblical?

  10. Michael says:

    Coy is a serial adulterer who should have a new career in insurance or selling time shares.

    Probably time shares… they’re often bogus as well.

  11. Alex says:

    Well, another reason why I could never be a pastor then, even though I sometimes think I could do it and help the Cause. I’ve sinned too much.

  12. Josh the Baptist says:

    I don’t think you can sin too much. If God calls you, you have to be a pastor.

    Still, I think people should be aware. If certain guys are using the pulpit as a personal hook-up service…stay away!

  13. Michael says:


    You are not in the ministry and whatever sins you are guilty of have not involved the abuse of congregational trust and biblical qualifications.

    We are all sinners…but we in the ministry have to hold a higher standard when we sit in the office of pastor.

  14. Alex says:

    OK. Interesting.

    So, it is those sins done as an official spiritual office of Pastor that are disqualifying, not pre-Pastor?

  15. Michael says:


    When one becomes a pastor, you accept responsibilities that others do not bear.
    When one blatantly violates those standards repeatedly, it shows that they lack the necessary character required for the office.

    My hope would be that before one decides to enter such a solemn duty that they have counted the cost.

  16. filbertz says:

    one would hope he is a marked man and people will stay away in droves. For those unfortunates who gather around him, may God be merciful.

  17. Michael says:


    You and I both know he’ll do very well….and people like us will be the enemies of grace…

  18. Alex says:

    How do you restore a pastor? I know you believe pastors can be restored. What would Bob Coy’s restoration have to look like for it to be biblical?

  19. Michael says:

    “What would Bob Coy’s restoration have to look like for it to be biblical?”

    Full disclosure and ten years from now.

  20. Alex says:

    Is that your opinion or is it backed up by scripture? Serious questions.

  21. Alex says:

    And, full disclosure to who? His family, board, elders? His whole local church? Public?

    I think it would be beneficial if you did an article on what biblical restoration looks like with specifics from scripture and noting what is your opinion and what appears as set-in-stone scriptural mandate.

  22. JM says:

    In transit. Only a moment. Got lucky internet moment. . Will only believe coy repented if he does not want to pastor again. If he was truly repentant he would wait tables at the CC that he screwed. Also have 2 issues. One of forgiveness & 1 of consequence. A murderer can b 4given but must go to jail. A sorrowful (repentant) murderer makes no gripe about being in jail because he nos he deserves it. A liar would complain. If Coy goes back 2 pastor–Houston we got problem. That’s y his case should b public so people no his character going in. If they still want mr. Happy pants Coy, they do it with eyes open & stupid is on them. Got no sympathy 4 such. Thatother reason why we still stuck with some pastor lemons.

  23. Michael says:

    “Is that your opinion or is it backed up by scripture?”

    The Bible gives us standards for elders,but no defined restoration plan.

    “And, full disclosure to who? His family, board, elders? His whole local church? Public?”

    He’s going to be soliciting the public for money and service. Tell it all without naming anyone else.
    Own your sins.

  24. Alex,

    Thanks for the kind words.

    I don’t make excuses for people who commit grossly immoral acts just because they are on my side of the ecclesiastical fence. I am not saying anything about anyone else in that remark. I am just saying, given what I and others know, as long as he remains impenitent, it wouldn’t matter to me if he were the Ecumenical Patriarch himself.

    There are a few former employees who became Orthodox. Some stayed where they were some went Reformed and other places. Some became rather animated atheists. I get it. I don’t blame them. It is something they have to work out.

    I didn’t write this just because Hank was received by the Orthodox. I wrote it for all of the people who have been harmed and silenced. All I can do is point and bear witness. After that it is up to the ecclesial authorities. Should they choose to ignore the information, I am not responsible for the embarrassing mess, and sooner or later, there is going to be one ( Jeremiah 13:23) In many ways, things have changed since the Group for CRI Accountability formed back in the 90’s. So I think we have an opportunity we didn’t have before.

    This has gone on far too long. It needs to end. And Hank is just one of the players at the top end of the food chain. The board needs to be eliminated as well.

  25. Rob says:

    I always thought CRI became irrelevant the moment HH took it over and turned it into Hank Hanegraaff Inc.

  26. Rob says:

    The fact that so many fallen ministers attempt to re-enter the ministry (prestige, substantial income) rather than working a regular (humble, lower paying) job for a few years, proves they’re really not qualified to be telling any of us regular folks how to live.

  27. pstrmike says:

    The reality is the church does not need leaders who do not practice self-control to the point that they descend into decadence. Coy has disqualified himself, probably for life. But the truth is, the church is just like the world in that we only give lip service to virtue and our only concern is whether the product is being delivered or not. Almost makes me want to be Orthodox.

  28. Michael says:


    Virtue is a forgotten concept altogether…

  29. Michael says:

    Rob @ 25… I agree…

  30. Xenia says:

    Perry’s article is a tour de force and a delight to read, even if the topic is depressing.

    Personally, I am afraid Ancient Faith Radio is going to give him his own podcast.

    He is absolutely not qualified to talk about Orthodoxy in other than very general terms. His comments of “I have not changed” are troublesome. If he hasn’t changed, he hasn’t become Orthodox.


    I have said plenty of stupid things in my 15 years as an Orthodox Christian, things that make me cringe. I didn’t have Hank’s huge (yet shrinking) audience but I did have this blog’s big audience and there are some things I have said out of ignorance and foolishness that I wish I could take back. Here’s what I am hoping: If I see a terrible sinner, I say to myself: “This person needs Orthodoxy because that’s the best place to repent.” So apparently HH is a big sinner, something we’ve all heard about for years if we’ve been paying attention to that world. As a big sinner, a genuine conversion to genuine Eastern Orthodoxy might just “fix” him if it’s a conversion of the heart and not just a conversion of the brain. And we are in no position to know this. We will have to wait and see.

    My advice to HH is to find another line of work, stop selling his books, and resist, RESIST all invitations and temptations to be any kind of spokesman whatsoever for Eastern Orthodoxy. No speaking engagements. Do not write a book about Eastern Orthodoxy, Hank. I am telling you this for your own good.

    So, good job, Perry and I am looking forward to the next installments.

  31. Xenia says:

    By “he” and “him” I am referring to Hank Hanegraaf. Sorry about the ambiguous pronouns.

  32. Xenia says:

    Just thinking about the kind of book HH might write makes me queasy…..

  33. JM says:

    If I may, re: Coy, he may have either entered into the pastorate practicing his brand of perversion or began it shortly thereafter. Whatever the case, It went on for most if not all of his tenure at CCFL. That means he never was a man of good reputation and was never qualified to be a pastor in the first place. His “conversion” simply fed the narrative that CC promulgated of instant sanctification and miraculous testimonies by their pulpit puppets. Because of the culture of sexual sin in the CC Camp, those that knew about Coy kept silent & those that didn’t know we’re dumbed down by the leaven to not see or react to what was right in front of them the whole time. Isn’t that just a little disturbing to someone? All of that should make the righteous man puke.

    He doesn’t need restoration because there is nothing to restore. It was all a lie. A sham. For his own sake, he needs to start over & find out how to quit playing church and be a truthful, humble man. He seems to have missed that stage. He had 30 years of lying before God and man. Anyone who easily writes that off is foolish.

    God is sovereign and He can surely do what He wants with Coy. However, He is also holy and we have to be careful not to approach situations with our own sensibilities. If He is misrepresented, there’s a price to pay. A man who has a healthy fear of God will take his medicine, stay out of the limelight & if God keeps him out of the public eye–be content with that.

  34. Michael says:

    Xenia @ 30… that’s pretty much the article I would write on this matter.

    Well done.

    I’m learning much about Anglicanism I didn’t know…and EO is like a different language completely.

    It will be quite some time before I am qualified to speak about my new home…

  35. Michael says:


    I’m pretty much with you on this one…

  36. JM says:

    Michael, I am going to lose internet shortly, but should have acknowledged your comments as well. Ur perspective is prudent. I also liked pstrmike. Good exchange about HH. . Learned a lot today. ? Traveling. If lose Internet, will check back later.

  37. JM says:

    Oh, rob 26…Good!

  38. Captain Kevin says:

    I wonder how many times Walter Martin has rolled over in his grave since HH took over CRI. No doubt he’s rolling quite a bit lately.

  39. Captain Kevin says:

    JM, is it common knowledge that Coy had been practicing perversion for as long as you say? Perhaps I missed something. I’m not doubting you, just wondering if you have an inside source or if you ARE an inside source.

  40. Michael says:


    My sources say it was a long term issue…

  41. Captain Kevin says:

    Me thinks Saeed’s imprisonment and persecution were not severe enough. Dude needs to humble himself just a bit.

  42. Captain Kevin says:

    Thanks Michael. Sad.

  43. Xenia,

    Thanks for the compliment.

    As far as AFR goes, that is not likely. First, the most they would do is an interview. Second, AFR is dinky compared to the radio audience. It can’t replace the revenue he has lost, not even close. Third, AFR is under the oversight of the Antiochian Archdiocese. They aren’t likely to give a new convert a show of his own, not at least without being in the church a decade. Hank is 67 now. He doesn’t have the time. And if they did so, they’d face a substantial backlash, since, Hank simply doesn’t know what he is doing. He didn’t know Protestant theology very well either. If they did so, they can never say they were not warned. Btw, I sleep very well at night.

    I am not without compassion and readiness to forgive. I am not saying it is a fun experience or easy. But big wolfs are also big sinners and just so long as he remains impenitent and acts like a wolf, the best place for him is not the sheep pen. We don’t put a wolf in the pen because he might behave.

    Further, if he can go to confession and commune without even trying to make reconciliation with the hundreds of people he has personally harmed in a myriad of ways over thirty years, uhm, yeah, color me skeptical about the conversion.

    When you live in a multimillion dollar home with all sorts of luxuries built on the destruction of people’s lives, do you really think its probable he’ll find another line of work? When you drive a Lexus and your kids do too and you gotta pay for golf and all its accouterments, well that ain’t cheap.

    Besides, he’s 67.

  44. Xenia says:

    Hi Perry,

    I wasn’t thinking so much about money- maybe I should have.

    My thoughts were that if the BAM crashes and burns he is the kind of person who needs an audience and that’s where I thought AFR might be a venue.

    With some people it’s money, with some it’s the need for an audience.

  45. filbertz says:

    yes, Coy will likely do quite well by his measure of success, but Sunday’s comin’.

  46. victorious says:

    People today tend to neglect what is easily derived from the Gospels. Judas in one sense was just as ” anointed” as the rest. Jesus was the only one calling him a devil before his debut.

  47. The fact that a Finn Brothers song was linked in the midst of Perry’s post was worth the price of admission.

  48. Captain Kevin says:

    Well now…Vic just gave me something to chew on for a while.

  49. Captain Kevin says:

    Piney!!!! 🙂

  50. Everstudy says:

    @15 “My hope would be that before one decides to enter such a solemn duty that they have counted the cost.”

    This is one of the reasons I didn’t pursue the ministry after CCBC.

  51. Xenia,

    He will need cash flow if he loses CRI, that much is true. It is hard to make payments on million dollar homes without cash flow.

    If he needs an audience, that is exactly why he should not have one. That need is parasitic on something good and needs to be removed for his own salvation as well as the well being of those around him.

    But I am not a priest and I am not his priest. That is their job. Not mine. My job is only to bear witness to what I know to be true and protect the innocent to the best of my ability.

    For his benefit and ours, this needs to end.

  52. Scooter Jones says:

    Maybe the EO hierarchy should have been more circumspect before receiving Hank into the fold?

  53. Steve says:

    Michael, I’m not sure I understand the concern about CC pastors using Warren Weirsbe material. If they all use it, why do any of the CC pastors care if other CC pastors recognize where it came from? Maybe I am missing something here. Its no secret most parrot each other anyway right down to using the same jokes and gestures.

  54. em ... again says:

    i am not so much concerned about these slimy posers who profit off of the Church as i am concerned for the Church – we don’t seem to be very good at policing ourselves – we seem to answer to everyone but God… for now
    and that tells me, don’t know if i’m right, that we have spiritually stunted Believers without understanding…
    even if we’re not holy, we need to understand the standards of the Faith, of the God we’re counting on for grace and redemption, eh?

  55. Xenia says:

    Scooter, the Church is a hospital for sinners. That’s where sinners belong!

    Healing comes along, by and by, assuming the patient is willing.

  56. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Warren Weirsbe? Those weren’t commentaries – they were works oriented devotionals. I hope they weren’t used as commentaries for any serious study.

  57. brian says:

    Interesting, for the first two Mr. Coy, and Mr. Hanagraaff it will depend on if they stay or get back into ministry based on the only constant that really ever mattered. Can they generate or continue to generate revenue. Nothing else matters at all in that context. Personally, I am glad Mr. Hanagraaff converted it showed some depth of thought and it ticked off a bunch of the true believer crowd which is always a plus. He did seem to treat some of his fellow Christians/employees like trash but that is irrelevant and SOP from personal experience. Mr. Coy really hurt some folks, again irrelevant, but maybe it should be. His real big sin is he apparently got caught, and that created a mess and that is a horrid sin.

    As for the third person Mr. Saeed I must confess I contacted senator, congress, president, wrote many emails and made several calls. I even tried to get resolutions passed on the local level. I even gave money. These were all personal, moral, spiritual, human failings on my part and I will carry that sin. As an evangelical one should always know everything and never be fooled, at least if you are in the pew or floating around the back 40 like myself. The upper management gets a pass on this as well as most else. I can’t be too angry at him, He was working the business and anything you do in that vein is always good. While he served a purpose he was usable, then he stopped serving a purpose so he is now apparently being thrown away. Again always justified because it works but I think that is wrong to do to any person. I need to repent of that hippy nonsense.

  58. Stephen says:


    What has Coy been up to these past few years, exactly? Does anyone know, for certain, that he didn’t get a “real” job or something, for example?

  59. Jess says:

    Hmm, I heard Bob Coy on KWVE not too many years ago, going on and on pointing the finger with the lordship salvation error, saying that if you’re living in habitual sin, then you’re not saved. If he believes that, then, well……… there’s three fingers pointing back at him.

  60. Scooter Jones says:

    HH joined the EO Church because he is a sinner in need of a hospital? Interesting perspective, I’ll have to chew on that one over the weekend 😉

  61. Think 4urslf says:

    Please excuse my naivete but could someone please explain the fundamental doctrinal difference between EO and CC. (Try and be brief)

    Does anyone else have an issue with the fact that BC had a “mega successful” ministry while living a lie (basically being the opposite of what he was supposed to be) and compare him to the pastor at the church on the corner is doing exactly what he is supposed to do and is not “successful” and his ministry barely makes it week to week..

    It’s because BC is an entertainer. He’s a showman. If he wasn’t – there is no way that anyone would ever give him another shot. The People want to be entertained, the people in power know that the people will pay money (tithe) to be entertained.
    In the end – Oh wow – what a mighty work of the Lord! (another Paradox)

    BTW – false humility is very annoying

  62. Steve says:

    Wasn’t Hank H. at one time a CC pastor? I think folks are seeing through the veneer of CC and other market driven churches. EO is starting to look attractive for this reason. However, I can see why some EO folks maybe concerned with HH joining them. If HH uses his marketing skills to promote EO it seems likely they could become like CC and other market driven churches. Anyway, this seems to be an overarching problem in America probably with all churches. It’s one reason I like independent churches because there is usually little to no marketing compared to denominational churches that have a budget for marketing. The flip side is there is no accountability.

  63. em ... again says:

    re # 61 … haven’t time to look up the reference at the moment, but our Lord told His disciples to leave someone alone who was preaching the gospel, but not called to do so as what the man was teaching was truth, so i guess i’d say that truth is truth no matter whose mouth it comes out of… but it is sad to think that so many revered him as a dedicated man of God
    just sayin … FWIW

  64. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “a “mega successful” ministry”

    I guess its your definition of successful that will answer the question. If its butts in the pews then yes he was successful – if its what the Bible says, perhaps not.

  65. Nathan Priddis says:


    I hardly followed Bob Coy because of geography. FL felt pretty far away. But did he not become pastor of CCFL just a short time after conversion?
    I seem to recall him discussing in a video, a Christmas / New Year conversion time-frame. He became pastor in the Summer. The same year or year following? In the account I heard he did not mention years, but it felt very fast.

  66. em ... again says:

    the butts in the pews principle makes me think of the marches that have been going on – the human race will probably never get over the idea that the more that believe something, the better that something must be… ‘course one could say that the opposite wouldn’t make a good standard either… thinking …. thinking ….

  67. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Jesus kept chasing people away with his hard preaching. My pastor keeps chasing people away with hard preaching – which its usually too grace filled for most people to handle and not enough ‘roll up your sleeves and fix yourself.”

    The mega pastors, well heck just listen to their drivel.

  68. Josh the Baptist says:

    “My pastor keeps chasing people away with hard preaching – which its usually too grace filled ”

    That’s not what hard-preaching means.

  69. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    “That’s not what hard-preaching means.”

    Perhaps not to a Baptist – but I found in my 13 yrs with the SBC that the easy to accept preaching was when my pastor just delivered my ‘to do’ list from the pulpit.

    We would get all twitchy if he ever said – it’s not up to you, Jesus already did it all, now go home. 😉

  70. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Look at Jesus, he preached ‘I am the bread of Life – believe this’ and everyone turn around and said good bye.

  71. Josh the Baptist says:

    It is actually recorded a few time in Scripture things that Jesus said that turned crowds away.

  72. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    I know – so if everyone keeps hanging and crowding into the mega church, perhaps they are not teaching the Jesus message.

  73. Josh the Baptist says:

    Of course not.

    I just thought it was funny that you think people leave because your pastor preaches too much grace.

  74. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    You must remember I came from a mega church that took down all 27 crosses we had on campus because the cross was offensive to ‘seekers’

  75. Josh the Baptist says:

    Which is ridiculous.

    But churches aren’t empty because pastors are preaching too much grace.

  76. Martin Luther's Disciple says:

    Josh, I didn’t say that was the only reason – I specified only Jesus’ church and my church as examples of such. 😉

  77. Josh the Baptist says:

    That isn’t why they leave your church either.

  78. Josh the Baptist says:

    That’s like the question on the job interview: What’s your biggest weakness?

    I work too hard.
    I care too much.

    Ha! Hilarious.

  79. Jerod says:

    Francis Chan often says things that are supposedly meant to thin the crowd, yet he is one of the most popular teachers I can think of. Is this just self flagellation on the part of the hearer?

  80. JD says:

    Three examples of how a ministry becomes a minus-Three. 🙁

  81. Smith Chuckles says:

    From what I’ve been told, the timing on Bob Coy’s “return” is such because it is suspected that his “contract” of $500k a year runs out soon. At this point the man could easily retire on what he has saved all these years and live the rest of his days in humble silence and some form of respectable work that didn’t require an audience. Except perhaps the divorce hurt him financially more than he’d like but mostly He craves the spotlight plain and simple. It’s not even for the money. It’s the idea of being able to win it all back again. Sadly, people down here are craving to give him that spotlight. He will literally have hundreds of people at his first “service” wherever it might be and there will be employees from CCFL that will abandon ship to follow him. SMH.

  82. dusty says:

    “They will send me emails about it”

    That is funny and sad! What do they want you to do that they won’t do? Hold them accountable?

  83. Jess says:

    “Francis Chan often says things that are supposedly meant to thin the crowd, yet he is one of the most popular teachers I can think of. Is this just self flagellation on the part of the hearer?”

    Yes. Francis Chan, David Platt, others like them too… they appeal to pride’s sado-masochistic tendency in the unbiblical “suffering doctrine” that they both teach. Platt tells you that you suck because you’re not living in a tent in Mongolia preaching his false gospel, yet he lives in a nice home, driving a nice car on the way to a nice church building, while selling books.

  84. Michael says:


    The suffering doctrine came from the mouth of Christ.
    You know nothing.
    Go back on the other blogs and slander me…but get off here.

  85. Bert says:

    What are we to make of Hank Hanegraaff’s conversion to EO at these several weeks? There’s an interesting video on YouTube by Jill Martin profiling Eastern Orthodoxy. One point she made was that part of the confirmation rite is renunciation of the Reformation faith (in particular the Lutheran Confession, and the doctines of sola scriptura and sola fide). So since this is the case how can any “Protestant” support, much less convert to this religious system? And how can Hank remain as head of CRI — a Protestant ministry? While I respect Hank’s right to align himself with EO, he really needs to resign from CRI.

  86. kathy rich says:

    I never realized there were so many righteous men , never realized there were actually those who get to point the finger while three are pointing back at them.

    maybe its time to open the Bible show me where Jesus just washes His hands of sinners !!!

    I thought only JESUS knows the Heart.

    on this I am speaking about Pastor Bob Coy !!! It is not between anyone but Pastor Bob and Christ. And if Jesus chooses too use Pastor Bob Coy , HE WILL.
    Those with out Sin cast the first rock. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

  87. Michael says:

    We’re pointing at a serial adulterer and wrecker of families, you insipid, biblically illiterate,shrew.

  88. Bill says:

    “you insipid, biblically illiterate,shrew” Ah yes, such a beautiful display of the gentleness, patience, and humility that God calls for in correcting others. 2Timothy 2:24-26

  89. Odd Man Out says:


    Welcome to PP and the heart of the man whose site this is. Of course he doesn’t deny it either.

    Someone called this a “safe place,” but it really isn’t at all.

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