Loose Ends

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56 Responses

  1. Alex says:

    “The American church, as is it’s norm, believes it can overcome the darkness by shooting at it.”

    How did we end “slavery”? We shot at it.

    How did we end Hitler and the Nazis and the Holocaust? We shot at it.

    How will we end the carnage in Mexico? We’ll shoot at it…or someone will eventually.

    Well, enough from me today, got to go open another gun store.

    Keep it inside the lines MLD etc. I’m expressing my opinions, but staying in a pretty tight box in terms of hyperbole and name calling, please respond in kind and don’t tempt me to sin.

  2. Josh Hamrick says:

    Michael, I am fascinated by Lonnie Frisbee. How honest would you say this book is?

  3. Alex says:

    Interesting book about Lonnie Frisbee.

    He was beaten and abused by his dad, too and describes how that affected him.

    He also tells the story of an atheist “Roger” who heard God’s audible voice and got saved during one of Lonnie’s evangelism efforts (I think). Is that Roger Wing?

    …now i’m gone.

  4. “but there has been no greater interest in becoming better prayer warriors or learning more about spiritual warfare”

    It’s a good thing you put the disclaimer at the bottom of your #1 – because I was going to say that the statement was a bald face lie.

    But here is the issue – you have the same problem I was discussing with Alex on the other thread – you do not understand the 2 kingdoms in which we live out our faith.

    In the kingdom of the right, the kingdom of God’s church, we do the very things you accuse us of not doing – we fight the spiritual battle – we are the Church Militant and everything that goes on in the church is a spiritual battle.

    But at the same time, God rules in the Kingdom of the left – the civil realm, through kings and princes. The church is all gospel, it’s only job is to forgive sin. But in the kingdom of the left – law is dished out. You run a red light, you feel God’s rule through law – no forgiveness, no grace, pay the fine or go to jail.

    As Christians we are members of both kingdoms. What you are looking at, with your laser like focus, is ONLY how Christians are acting in the kingdom of the left and you are TOTALLY ignoring what is happening in God’s kingdom of the right.

  5. A clarification on my #4 – when I say the church or in the church, I do not mean our physical location – more in our vocational duty as christians.

  6. All I can say on this, is that In Exodus 22, God will not hold you guilty if someone breaks into your house and you kill him. Our laws basically say the same thing. Does the NT negate this with the Sermon on the Mount? I don’t think so, because when someone breaks into your house and you are forced to kill him to protect self or family you aren’t holding hatred for him in your heart. It is a spur of the moment thing. I don’t think it is disbelief in the power of God to have a weapon to protect yourself, family or neighbors. I don’t know what means God has provided to either protect me or send me home to Him. I do know that guns are here, they must be dealt with and evil men have always abounded. This is why God makes governments as part of common grace to us to keep some of the anarchy at bay and part of that governmental power in our culture is possession of guns for self-protection. Government has to acknowledge it cannot be there all the time, so it delegates and creates laws to cover such things. I think MLD may be on to something there.

  7. Em says:

    “Instead of identifying Satan as the power behind the recent tragedy, the new enemy is people with Aspergers Syndrome.”

    if the link links, this is for Michael:


  8. Em says:

    MLD, FWIW amen to your #4 and to Derek T’s also … we don’t advance our Lord’s Kingdom with violence and, yes, there is the prospect of martyrdom for our stand for Christ, but it may be necessary to defend against other agressions on our persons i think … we dance around the refinements on the issue and maybe it’s case by case? dunno

  9. Michael says:

    Hard to separate fact from fiction when it comes to Frisbee.
    At least in this book we get his perspective…worth a read if you’re interested .
    I’m back to work…

  10. Josh Hamrick says:

    Well, I kinda expected exaggerated preacher stories…:) I guess I’m wondering if he reveals any of his struggles and failures, or if its just a long Todd Bentley story.

    Eh, I’ll read it.

  11. Jtk says:

    “There are lines at the gun stores, but there has been no greater interest in becoming better prayer warriors or learning more about spiritual warfare.”

    Simply untrue.
    Many are praying, they are just following scriptural directives to not blab about it on Facebook.
    A bunch of us JUST prayed. ONLY mentioning it to encourage you Michael, not to brag!

    And the Civil War and WWII didn’t end with just guns, there had to be Spiritual warfare going on too!

  12. Ixtlan says:

    Thanks for the tip on the book. I’ll probably read it. Lonnie was such a paradox, a walking contradiction really. Ministers on food stamps is indicting and yet, could Lonnie have gotten a job? How many ministers are bi-vocational? And yet, I remember the Kentucky Fried Chicken size buckets that were passed in Costa Mesa, and how I marvelled at how full they always were.

    As I have looked back, I often wonder how much of the Jesus Movement was real. And I’m realizing now that isn’t so much the right question to ask as is, how deep was the Jesus Movement?

    Revival is measured in the depth, not length.

  13. Nonnie says:

    Just read a great sermon by Walter Bruggeman about a living through the nightmares of life and what our response should be.


  14. DavidM says:

    Michael, I don’t post here often, mostly lurk and read. But today I have something to say. On the day of the shootings, I met for coffee with a man who is a new member of our congregation. By the time I got to the cafe, I was heartbroken and almost in tears, thinking of the innocent little children. His first words were, “This is Satan, pure and simple.” I told him that right now, it doesn’t matter who is behind it, the fact remains that little children lost their lives brutally and senselessly. I was really appalled that, instead of feeling for the kids and their families, he was viewing the tragedy through the lens of “Well, what can we expect: Satan is the ruler of this world.” I wondered if he would have taken the same posture if it had been one of his children or grandchildren? Yes, we have to try and prevent such a thing from happening again. And, there really IS the problem of evil in this world, and if someone is on a mission of death and destruction, they will find a way. But it seems to me that, all too quickly, so many were trivializing the tragedy by putting it in a political/religious/sociological/eschatological context instead of just grieving with the families. Someone on this board last week said that is just goes to show that we are in the “last days”, in that the love of many will grow cold. Come on: I guess there have been no mass murders at any point in the last 2000 years of history, right? I cringe when I read that sort of nonsense. We have a corporate prayer time each Sunday morning, but this last Sunday, I said that we would subordinate our requests for the greater need, to pray for the families and all those in Newtown who are dealing with unthinkable grief. So, yes, ultimately Satan is at work here, but, in my opinion, we who are Christians can be praying for the families, which will do more good than trying to find a reason for it, at least for now.

    As for Lonnie Frisbee, I am a product of the Jesus Movement in general and of Lonnie in particular. I was invited to CCCM in January of 1970. Lonnie preached and I made a decision to follow Jesus, which I have been doing ever since then (sometimes more successfully than other times!). The Jesus Movement was definitely real. I was in the center of it for a few years. Of course, there were a lot of problems with it all, and I am sure there were and are great exaggerations of what really took place. But, at the core, it was real. I personally have many stories of incredible answers to prayer, things that were not made up and have no explanation other than God was listening to the simple prayers of young, energetic believers full of faith. Those experiences taught me a great deal of what it means to trust in God and to believe what is written in the word. All these decades later, I draw upon them in ministering to members of my congregation.

  15. erunner says:

    I’m stunned people would dare bring up Asperger’s as a trigger for this tragedy. How do we make headway in de-stigmatizing those who struggle emotionally when we so easily paint them as time bombs waiting to go off? And to hear it from the church…….

    I saw this man interviewed on CNN last night. Says he died and went to the other side and now is bringing words of comfort to those who have lost loved ones. Today I heard him again on the Dennis Prager show and he believes in reincarnation and all sorts of other falsehoods.

    This is who is getting the airtime for spiritual matters regarding Newtown? What a dangerous man who will see his book sales spike. I guess it’s pretty unacceptable to share that there’s no guarantee for the adults who died ending up in Heaven. This is DANGEROUS!

  16. (Note: Do not read this post as though I am angry, I am not.)
    Are we not supposed to find out the “why” though? I don’t know if this guy had asperger’s, but something was wrong there and that was the real cause of the tragedy.

    What happens if he had some mental illness? Is it off the table to talk about that?

    When can we talk, a week, ten days, a year, two years….who decides that?
    What about demonic possession? I know no one but christians will even bring it up, but are we forbidden too discuss it?
    I am not saying that what this pastor said was right, but who decides what issues we should talk about on this situation?

    Erunner, I understand you have problems, heck I do myself. When I first got back from Iraq in 2005, my PTSD was much worse than it is now. I would go into Wal-Mart and the crowds would get to me so bad, that I would find hands rising to my chest trying to find my M4’s trigger well that wasn’t even there. Now it is merely anxiety attacks, no reaching for an imaginary trigger. I stayed away from guns in those days. But, what about the person who has it worse and can’t handle it and doesn’t get it dealt with? Some of these guys come back and murder their families and some come back and kill themselves. Issues like these do need to be discussed in a rational manner, not just say “that is a sacred cow” and we will not talk about it. Maybe instead of banning guns, we should identify at risk people and enact laws to ensure that arms aren’t in their reach, including vets who shouldn’t be around them and mentally ill people who might use them for things like this.

    But if we don’t ask questions, we would be helpless to identify.

    Not saying this will stop all violence, but maybe by God’s grace it would help some.

  17. Josh Hamrick says:

    “Maybe instead of banning guns, we should identify at risk people and enact laws to ensure that arms aren’t in their reach, including vets who shouldn’t be around them and mentally ill people who might use them for things like this.”

    What about a mixture of both? Mental iIlness has such a stigma attached to it, that most people would never voluntarily come forward. You wouldn’t know they had problems until it was too late. Why not make it more difficult to get guns, and do more to reach the mentally ill?

  18. Lutheran says:

    Here’s what I consider a very well informed article for everyone’s consideration.


  19. Ah, but you see, it always comes back to more restrictions on guns. Has that helped with illegal drugs? Did it help with alcohol in prohibition? No. Criminals will still acquire guns and people that want to kill massively will build a bomb like that guy in 1927 or stab kids with a knife like the guy in China last week. Instead, another incident will happen and even more restrictions will occur till guns are illegal and then they will be shipping guns and drugs over the Mexican border in the same loads. Then what? A future like our neighbor, Mexico, with drug lords actually in control and warring with the cops in the street? I would rather not see that.
    Look at the two mass shootings that were avoided in the last week, armed people stopped them both.
    Refusing to identify people that are at risk is not the way though. Yeah, they tend to not want to identify themselves, but look at how many people knew something was wrong. I have been in that situation before also. We had a soldier, a former marine, that had mental problems deploying with us in 2009. My platoon all knew there was a problem and told people higher. The higher did not want to deal with the problem and left to them nothing would have happened. We pushed it and pushed it and finally he was taken off the deployment. Found out later that they really just shuffled him elsewhere instead of really dealing with the problem. Identifying and then acting to actually help that person is a good way to deal with it, unfortunately government agencies are terrible at this like they are at most things.
    Wow, just talked myself out of the identifying at risk people solution the government would goof it up just like they do most things.
    Ok, I don’t have a clue. There is no real solution to mass killings. Things like this happen ’cause man is evil and is all jacked up ’cause of the fall. Messed up mentally and spiritually and at risk for demonic intervention. I pray, but bad stuff still happens and I don’t know why. I do think that guns in the hands of a populace can be an instrument of God’s grace to stop some of these acts though.

  20. erunner says:

    Derek, I am all for talking about these things. If you don’t know (and I’m not sure it’s relevant) I have operated a blog for over four years reaching out to believers who struggle with mental illness of all types. I struggle but my heart is for those in the church who have been driven into the shadows because of stigma, cruelty, misinformation, etc. So when I saw Asperger’s brought up in this story it blew me away because it’s almost an impossibility.

    I believe we need to talk tons more about mental illness as we are clearly losing that battle. I had a well meaning friend seeking to cast demons out of me because of my anxiety disorder. Others have been wounded terribly by these accusations from those they respect in spiritual places. Read about Hillsong and what their ministries did to anorexic women. Your blood would curdle.

    Derek, it many of my articles center on PTSD in one fashion or another. My heart goes out to you because you have endured it. My nephew has completed three tours and the things he saw and did are things no one should experience. Just the other day a fellow marine and close friend of his shot and killed his wife leaving behind two children. We’re failing our troops. My blog is filled with stories of tragedy among our veterans. Also stories of hope and resources to help them.

    When tragedy strikes my heart immediately goes to those who are already or will be impacted with some sort of mental illness as a result. There are many who are talking and giving their lives to help the afflicted. We need to discuss these things. The church needs to come out of the dark ages concerning mental illness so they can be a sanctuary for the hurting. I am sorry for what you must have experienced and you have my gratitude for serving our country. If you ever desire to share your story you have a platform on my blog.

  21. Thanks erunner for the offer of a platform, but I deal by trying not to talk about it and it seems to work. Of course thinking about it today, means bad dreams tonight, but at least I don’t have to go out to a crowded place. Gonna get off here now and watch some STNG and chill out some.
    Peace all.

  22. Michael says:


    I have great sympathy with your position and wrote something similar myself a couple days ago.
    However, when people want add “at risk of being a serial killer” to my sons disability I have to speak.
    Next I may be required to put a special tattoo on him…

  23. Em says:

    “…..Even though I have not seen any official confirmation to tell me that this individual was diagnosed and treated for Asperger’s during the course of his early childhood, many folks want to know if this condition could have led to this horrific crime.
    They ask me because they know I have an autistic child, …: Children in the autistic spectrum, who are treated and come from loving homes, are as pure as snow. The vast majority will grow up with moral values for themselves and for others.
    My experience with autistic children is that they have an inner desire to make us happy – and to belong. So I continue to say that despite whatever hearsay there is in regards to the spectrum of this mass murderer, violence is not part of the character of these children, and there must be something else that occurred psychiatrically that led to this devastating act…..”

    excerpted from the link that i posted earlier

  24. Papias says:

    “Why don’t we just admit that we really don’t believe in either supernatural evil or the power of God and be done with it?”

    I have been pondering the reality that some of the evils perpetrated in this world MAY have their root in spiritual activity. When I ask myself, “If a person was demon possessed, what kind of actions would I expect to see?”

    “In his original preface written from Magdalen College at Oxford on July 5, 1941,CS Lewis warned of what he called “the two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils.” One error “is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them.” Lewis concluded that the devils “are equally pleased by both errors, and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight.”

  25. “Instead of identifying Satan as the power behind the recent tragedy, the new enemy is people with Aspergers Syndrome.

    People like my son…”

    To me, that’s just as sick and backwoods as Fred Phelps and his cult of brainwashed relatives.

  26. DavidM says:

    I understand, Michael. If I were in your shoes, I believe I’d be incredulous with people who would try to connect the dots of Aspergers and serial killing.

  27. “As for me and my house, I will not be buying a gun…I’ll be buying oil to anoint my home and my loved ones and I’m committed to keeping those God has entrusted me with in prayer.”

    My problem is that I haven’t done either. I’ve only shot a gun once in my life, and I have no desire to ever do so again. I say I believe in the power of God and prayer, but my lack of prayer betrays me. Seasons of fervency in prayer have been few and far between. Thank you, Michael, for prodding me back in the right direction once again.

  28. Em says:

    fervent prayer is good and “avails much” – but that should not discourage the rest of us from just praying … of all the things that are of the Kingdom, but against our nature (human), prayer is the easiest to comply with … if one feels formulaic and rote in doing so, well just rejoice in the fact that you know the formula and the words are true words and you’re privileged to know them – praise God for their truth, not your wonderful righteous tongue 🙂 who says we have to be the instigator of marvels? who says it’s not worth our precious time without resulting miracles and deep spiritual experiences? … being a participant is, in itself, a privilege … IMHO

    just sayin

  29. Em says:

    CK, ” I’ve only shot a gun once in my life, and I have no desire to ever do so again.” that’s probably good because the odds are waaay in favor of the opportunity/need to do so never happening 🙂

  30. filbertz says:

    for the mentally ill and their families, the isolation created by a society unable or unwilling to assist them is debilitating. To label a mentally ill 20-year-old “a monster” or “sub-human,” etc. is indicative of our collective ignorance. Over and over families are rejected in their attempts to get help, find support & understanding, and latch on to any semblance of hope. As I have groped my way through the tragedy in Newtown, the image that stands out to me is the principal and the counselor moving toward the shooter in an attempt to intercept him. Of course it was too late, and they died trying. But for me, the model is there: we need to move toward those in crisis, both the family and the individual, and intercept them–long before one becomes a potential threat. To do so, we must confront our own fears and inadequacies, re-evaluate our priorities and calling, and adjust our ministy models to accomodate this need. It isn’t ‘someone else’s’ job. It is ours.

  31. “…who says we have to be the instigator of marvels? who says it’s not worth our precious time without resulting miracles and deep spiritual experiences? … being a participant is, in itself, a privilege …” Em, that is one of the most profoundly beautiful things I’ve ever read.

    And thanks for that bit of perspective reality at #30. 🙂

  32. Mods, I did it again. Please change my moniker on my last post.

  33. Michael says:

    I caught it, CK.

  34. Paige says:

    What has been grievous to me this last week is that there is no public outcry, no vigils, headlines, etc, etc over the thousands of pre-born children who are murdered daily in America. Very sick double standard
    On Sunday, our pastor plainly stated that what is wrong in our world is the loss of the fear of God, knowing someday, sooner or later, we will all give account to Him and every knee shall bow, every tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord.
    I was saved on July 12, 1971 with Lonnie Frisbee preaching. The Holy Spirit has kept me since. He disappeared from the CCCM scene soon after that and I never saw him again.

  35. Scott says:

    Paige, I grieve often over the killing of innocents in this nation via abortion. I’m with you in that observation. It has to be the most egregious and damning crime ever committed by humanity. It’s what happened in CT thousands of times over every month in our country.

  36. Thanks Michael.

    Paige: “The Holy Spirit has kept me since.” Soli Deo Gloria!

  37. brian says:

    Most of my adult life I have been working and or living with people with mental or developmental disabilities. I use to see it as my calling, I have killed that notion with a vengeance, I ripped it out of my soul with all the hatred I could muster and if it ever shows its ugly Satan inspired head I ripped it, and myself to shreds. Oh and I listened to an apologist today and all the theological rhetoric aside, those kids are not innocent in a biblical sense and the potter can do what He will with His pots, including allowing bullets to rip them apart. He also went on about how this is an opportunity to rationally and biblically examine these events and so on. Who talks like that? Then came the we are all in Adam and so on. On another blog the first day it happened before any grief was shown or shared or even prayers for those involved was the apologetic, the gun apologetic, the evil no school prayer apologetic and so on. I dont want to step on other people’s toes. It just grows tiring I mean they have not even buried most of the kids and the rhetoric starts.

  38. Alex says:

    Regarding (insert the PC term for crazy here, i forget) people getting guns:

    I’m an FFL (Federal Firearm’s License) holder. I had to pass a strict FBI background check to get the privilege. I have to administer the governments rules regarding selling and transferring firearms.

    Here’s the dealio from first-hand experience: If a person has been “Adjudicated” (meaning a court/judge has ordred someone) mentally defective, they can’t get a gun legally through a licensed FFL Dealer.

    Here are some problems however: they can get a gun at a gun show from a non-licensed FFL dealer in many states. They can buy a gun private party from a non-licensed FFL dealer in many states. There are some gaps in the System. I think everyone should have to buy or transfer a gun through a licensed FFL dealer and go through the FBI NICS background check and the paperwork process. We need to close these loopholes, as criminals and crazy people slip through or walk through the cracks.

    Here’s another problem: I had a guy who wanted to buy a gun at my store. The guy did not present the proper identification and requirements required to enter the FBI NICS and background check and paperwork process to legally purchase a gun. I informed the guy of the requirements and he said he could produce the proper items but would have to gather them and return at a later date.

    In the interim I received a phone call from the lady running a half-way house locally. She informed me that the dude wanting to buy the gun was crazy and had issues and she informed me that he had threatened staff, her etc. While the dude was a bit odd, he showed no signs of being Institutional Crazy to the untrained eye.

    She begged me not to sell him a gun. She said he had threatened her and others. She asked if he would be able to get a gun. I told her if he was of age (he was), was a resident of the state, had the proper identification and requirements and could pass an FBI NICS background check and filled out the forms correctly with no disqualifications, that he would most likely get a gun.

    I asked her if he had been Adjudicated mentally defective. She said not yet. I asked if he was a threat in her opinion. She said yes.

    I called local law enforcement, I called the ATF and FBI. I did my best to warn Authorities that there was a potential problem here that might slip through the cracks since the guy had not yet been Adjudicated mentally defective, but that according to the Half-way house manager, was a potential threat. I told them that based on that info, I didn’t think the guy should get a gun.

    The situation got more complicated. I stalled the guy on purpose, hoping some authority would do something. They couldn’t b/c the guy wasn’t officially Adjudicated mentally defective and he had not committed any crimes. The guy finally got frustrated and demanded his money back. I told him no, that I would give him store credit and he could buy anything but a gun (I did this on purpose as the guy could have easily taken the money and gone to the next store and bought a gun and probably passed the FBI background check and slipped through the cracks and that store would not have had the phone call from the Half-way house manager). I informed local PD of my strategy.

    Here’s what p*sses me off. I got a phone call from the dude’s mental health social worker several days later. She accused me of trying to cheat a person with a mental issue and then went on to tell me I was discriminating against him. Hell yes I was.

    I told her I did not think this guy should get a gun b/c I was told he is crazy. She chided me for using that term. I told her politely but firmly that I was in fact discriminating based on the info I had received from the Half-way house manager and that I was not going to sell the guy a gun. She agreed that he shouldn’t have a gun, but she demanded I give him the money back instead of store credit for another item that wasn’t a gun.

    I informed her that in my conversations with her “client” (she called him) that he was dead-set on getting a gun and would simply (as he told me) go somewhere else.

    I asked her if she was going to make sure he didn’t go to the next town and buy a gun, after she confirmed he had not yet been Adjudicated mentally defective…but had serious issues.

    She said she could not guarantee that, that she doesn’t follow him around or know what he’s doing all the time. I told her I did not like the idea of handing the guy money back under those circumstances.

    She made a lot of noise and threatened me with some sort of government or legal action. I told her firmly that I had notified police, the FBI and the ATF of the situation and what was reported to me. Her tone changed after that.

    Eventually I agreed to refund the money in the form of a check that the social worker would administer. I re-informed the authorities of my situation with the social worker and told them I had done all I could do to prevent a potential tragedy.

    I was watching the news for many weeks following that, hoping this guy didn’t somehow get a gun. I hoped my effort worked in getting someone in authority to pay attention to this specific situation.

    The gun the guy wanted to buy was a sniper rifle, btw.

    It disgusts me that I had to exert that much effort and be a prick about it…and there still was no guarantee this guy didn’t get the money from the social worker’s agency and go buy a gun.

  39. Nonnie says:

    That social worker should be named and shamed. Why anyone would take the time to advocate for someone to purchase a gun is beyond me. To get housing, food, clothing, a job…yes! To get a gun……crazy!!!

  40. Alex says:

    Nonnie, it was ridiculous and ticked me off.

    I had to go into persistent a-hole mode to do what I could to stop this from happening.

    Once I started copying “Bonnie” the Case Worker on my communications with the FBI, ATF and local law enforcement, suddenly she and her agency were on board, whereas previously she was trying to bully me into handing cash back to her “client” and then wiping her hands of the situation.

    Here’s one of several actual verbatim communications I made to Law Enforcement and copied Bonnie the Case Worker on to make sure she understood the severity of this matter and to get her to do the right thing:

    “Bonnie, I gave the ATF the rundown on the XXXXXXXXX situation and have previously contacted the FBI and Local Law enforcement and confirmed with the FBI the following:

    According to examiner #4457, XXXXXX will pass an FBI Background Check and get a firearm if the following hasn’t taken place:

    You need to get a Court Order from the State of Idaho “Committing” him by the Court which adjudicates him Mentally Defective and will then prevent XXXXX from being able to go down the street to the next store with his money and buying a long-range weapon.

    You represented, Bonnie, that you believed XXXX had severe “Mental issues” and XXXXX from the Group Home represented that he was “crazy” and that you were both very concerned about him getting a firearm.

    In my opinion, XXXXX should not get a firearm either, especially a long-range weapon that he seems intent on owning has he has been shopping my rifles for nearly a year now (w/o my knowledge that he had mental issues until you and XXXXX reported them to me).

    Nothing prevents XXXXX, this moment, from taking his money to the store down the street, passing a Background Check and getting a long range rifle.

    That shouldn’t happen and my goal (still) is to make sure it doesn’t happen.

    Without Bonnie and XXXXX tracking his every move, I believe XXXX will buy a firearm soon, and Bonnie has stated that he is also an “impulse buyer” and that impulse buying is a regular thing he does (my recollection of our conversation) which tells me he’ll try to purchase a firearm again soon. This, in my opinion, poses a risk to the public and someone needs to get this guys official record changed so he can’t own a firearm.

    We don’t want another Jared Loughner, I think we all agree on that.”

    It angers me that this Case Worker “Bonnie” was so brazenly stupid and a bully in defending her “client” at first and wouldn’t take my no and my reason for no for an answer in just handing cash over the counter back to the crazy guy so he could go buy a gun that day down the street.

    There are Gaps in the System and there are stupid people like “Bonnie” who could care less unless some a-hole like me makes a big deal of it and brings some accountability and pressure to bear.

    Sad, but true. I feel good knowing I did my best to try and prevent a tragedy. That’s about all I could do. “Bonnie” and her agency should be ashamed of themselves. Had I caved to her initial pressure, it is very likely the guy would have gone and bought a long-range rifle that day he came back and was angry and wanted his cash back.

  41. Alex says:

    Unfortunately there are stupid people in the System who are “case workers” etc and they are also apathetic and don’t really care, they’re just collecting a paycheck and tend to think their “clients” shouldn’t be discriminated against etc.

    Well, sometimes we need to discriminate for the safety of the “client” and the general public and others who have been threatened etc.

    There are many store owners who would have caved to this “Bonnie” and said screw it, here’s your cash, go down the street and buy a gun…and many more who would have simply finished the transaction and given the guy the gun in the first place, as he would’ve passed the background check per the FBI.

    Very very very few would have taken the time and effort it took to handle this situation the ‘right’ way. It was a pain in the arse, but I did it anyway. Unfortunately, it is the rare exception and not the rule and even I can only operate on what I know…and many folks are odd, but appear non-Institutional Crazy. Lady Gaga is odd too, so are many of our politicians, but most aren’t felons or legit crazy.

    There’s a Gap, no doubt, which is all the more reason to let folks have the ability to defend themselves when inevitably a crazy person and/or a criminal gets a gun.

    Personally, i have little faith in the 100% effectiveness of the System. There are holes.

    Restricting the law abiding responsible folks will only result in making the Problem worse and Mexico is a great example of that.

    Huddling kids in a corner unarmed is a bad policy as well.

    Arm and train teachers who want to protect themselves and the kids. Vet them, train them, let them conceal carry. There are crazy guys who slip through the cracks all the time. There will be more shootings no matter how many laws you pass. Only the law abiding will obey those laws.

  42. Nonnie says:

    Here in the UK it is called “My life, my choice.” People who are not capable of living on their own (have to have carers watching over them 24/7) but are taught and encouraged that all their decisions are “my life, my choice.” It is crazy.

  43. Nonnie says:

    There has to be a human rights issue that is also bathed in common sense.

  44. Em says:

    i suspect that there are many services being poorly administered by competent people who know that the system will take them down if they try to do it right – dunno

  45. Solomon Rodriguez says:

    “Paige, I grieve often over the killing of innocents in this nation via abortion. I’m with you in that observation. It has to be the most egregious and damning crime ever committed by humanity. It’s what happened in CT thousands of times over every month in our country.”


  46. Scott says:

    Last month I was ranting about how I knew my health insurance contribution was going up at work. I postulated that the rates and deductibles would most likely go up, care and coverage down. Well, it’s reality now. Received the new plan quote today.


    If I want to cover myself and the wife, the “decent tier” plan is now $805.45 per month! Of course we have the HSA plan option which is probably similar to what folks will get under the Obama “Affordable Care Act” exchange. That one one will only run us $433.55 a month.

    “Affordable Care Act” my butt!

  47. Alex says:

    Scott, I hear you. My health insurance has gone up 30% since 0bamacare was announced. I thought it was supposed to go down???????

    Ridiculous, as usual. Always b.s. coming from politicians.

  48. erunner says:

    Alex, You went over and above in what you did concerning this woman and her antics.

    Something you mentioned which I’ve heard elsewhere is arming and training teachers. I like the thinking behind this idea but it bothers me. The reason is I worry about the damage a teacher could do with a gun/guns. Overall teachers are a fine group of people but there are bad apples in the system for sure.

    People being proactive as you were is a good step. Thanks for what you did.

  49. DavidH says:

    This tragedy, all physically fare away, was emotionally near. On Friday, I was at school, doing grades, taking care of end of the year school business, when a text arrived from my wife, “go to a news site,” it said.

    As CNN opened on my browser, my heart leapt into my throat. My four colleagues and I gathered in a circle, prayed and cried. My intellectual side went into analytical overdrive – Why? How? The youngest charges in a public school had been murdered along with the adults charged with caring for them. Why? How?

    I don’t want to carry a gun in my classroom. I don’t want to be armed. I’m there as a mentor. I’m there to provide a safe and caring environment. My kids see enough violence on the streets. They don’t need to thing I’m “carrying.”

    What happened Friday wasn’t because God “isn’t allowed” in schools, it happened because Satan got in. He go into the mind of a man, he got in through the door of a school. When he had finished he left the man to see the horror he (and the man) had wrought. In my opinion, the man’s mental illness was a open door to Satan, a polluting media, and a merciless society.

    That’s it, I’m done.

  50. Apple of His Eye says:

    Thanks for the encouragement to read Sarah’s article. I felt her sentiments exactly. I haven’t been in here for a while, because I am teaching full time now! On break now, and catching up.

    My students didn’t seem interested in talking about Sandy Hook. I wasn’t quite sure how to interpret that attitude. We went on. I locked my classroom door on Monday, but only that day.

    A fifteen month old drowned in a pool two years ago, a relative. I stayed with the grieving mother for over two months. I have stayed in close contact with her since. I wanted to bear her burden and lighten her load. In the end, it’s Jesus who envelops the broken heart, always there, never busy, moody,or overwhelmed. The intimacy is deep and personal, and doesnt’ compare to anything any other human could offer. He uses us, but nothing compares to His presence in the darkest of nights.

    I didn’t want to talk about what happened with my students. Maybe after break.

  51. Al says:

    Interesting video on Lonnie Frisbee in his later years. Toms Stipes church former calvary pastor.

  52. Alex says:

    Lonnie Frisbee said, “there were 400 people going, now 4,000”

    “we’ve had an explosion in a year…of souls…people are getting miraculously saved!”

    “The fact that God saved…in prison…he was a heroine addict….and he beat his kids…and the Lord saved him”

    Hmmm. Who is this pastor?

    Unfortunately, God doesn’t “miraculously save” very many of these guys…they think they’re “Specially Anointed” but they keep doing the same stuff, it just changes forms and they get better at hiding it and lying about it.

    Not buying the Con. Not so sure about this “Special Anointing” business. Butts in seats is not necessarily a “blessing” or validation that God is working. Many butts in seats come from hype and good marketing and charismatic personality vs. God truly moving.

    The skeptical side of me is concerned about this video and the reports in it….

  53. Got to admit, Frisbee is honest when he says that he has taken his “act” (schtick) on the road.
    Frisbee gets more laughs than a Yiddish comedian in the Catskills.

  54. David Sloane says:

    Lonnie said to me “Platform ministry” required ” Platform performance.” The video above was taken from a low grade home video VCR tape, Erik Janson digitized it and uploaded his results to YouTube. The quality was very poor but you get to hear Lonnie’s version of “Platform” speak. This was during a period where he was PO’ed at everyone. He vented freely because he was speaking at his friend Tom Stypes church and had liberty he would not have had otherwise.

    Tom extended grace and mercy to Lonnie that you would not expect from other pastors. Love that man!

    What the video did not show was during the course of the evening the Holy Spirit filled the children who were brought in later.

    I find it very interesting that Lonnie is tied in with the other topic in some way in this particular thread…don’t you?

    Broken people with very real problems that no one bothered to address. Many times Lonnie cried out for help from adults when he was being molested as a child and no one cared enough to believe him and intervene.

    Lonnie told me that because of this he bonded to the age that he was when he first had been molested. He also said that because he had no where to go for help, he bonded to the Holy Spirit. He felt that he had developed a super sensitivity to the person of the Holy Spirit and just knew where HE was moving and what HE was doing and co~operated.

    We have no way of knowing if any of that is true. But we can know that thousands of Christians make the claim that because of the ministry of the man Lonnie Frisbee they were impacted and walked with God. Many make the claim that they accepted Christ into their lives in response to an invitation given by Lonnie.

    I have known the Frisbee family since I was in grade school where I first met Wesley Frisbee in my woodshop class in Costa Mesa. I know what I speak of.

    There is some information on Lonnie here for those of you who might not know who he was:

  55. Michael says:


    Thank you…those are great insights that we don’t get elsewhere.
    “Lonnie told me that because of this he bonded to the age that he was when he first had been molested.’
    That is something I believe is true of many abuse victims…and understanding that is the key to going forward.

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