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  1. Believe says:

    Amen Michael.

    Been there…still battling there (within myself…and God will win, guaranteed).

  2. Believe says:

    …God will win guaranteed…meaning, He kicks my butt when I fight him. Like you said, it’s a heart matter.

    Regarding the ODMs and others, God will deal with them if they are his (and probably are).

    Regarding the rogue pastors out there…they still need to be confronted, in love, and held to account and prayed for and encouraged to repent…and made a public example so others may take warning if they don’t repent when confronted.

  3. Babylon's Dread says:

    It is true Michael is only asking that Silva walk a path that he himself has been willing to walk.

  4. Michael says:

    You’re living in an alternate reality.
    So am I, to a degree.

    As BD has said, we live in a country of free market religion.
    There is no way to enforce accountability or Christian conduct.

    The only sin that will disqualify a man in this religious economy is homosexuality…and even that can be overcome.

    The strangest thing I’ve experienced yet in my Christian walk is how alone one gets when they open their heart to all who call on the name of Jesus.

    Unless you’re willing to adopt a set of sectarian attire, no sect wants you.

  5. WTC says:

    Michael,
    You said ‘I’ve been informed that I’m violent, emergent, care nothing for doctrine, and I’m not really Reformed.’

    I certainly don’t mean to pick on you with this response but I would like to say something about the allegations and respond accordingly (Biblical, if I may).
    1) Violent: Where are the two witnesses? Additionally, did anyone come to you privately about this?

    2) Emergent: Same as the first.

    3) The 3rd & 4th accusations are impossible to substantiate as they involve your inner man.

    Therefore, as much as I appreciate your willingness to show humility I see you standing on a Biblical Principle and it will bless some and cause you to be subject to attack from others. Just do what you know God has called you to do. To give one inch to faceless and baseless ODM’s is to inflate the ballon of their personal ego’s. I suggest your deflate the balloon by not recognizing them. If they type, speak or publish…disregard it entirely!

    In Closing, I’ll be publishing a self help book on ‘how to know you are a better Calvinist than others’ this summer. I’ll send you a free copy if you are interested. : )

  6. Lutheran says:

    ‘can’t prove them wrong because once indicted you’re guilty and no evidence (like seven years of teaching doctrine online and eleven years teaching my church the doctrines of grace) matters.’

    This is really sad.

    Our secular court system does a lot better than these idiots.

    At least there, you’re innocent until proven guilty.

  7. Isaiah56:1 says:

    Michael, you are not alone. You have opened your heart to those who call on the name of Jesus, and we appreciate that, we are here. There are many of us here who are no longer a “sect”, we no longer fit there, but we are a part of a FAMILY, and PP is a branch of that family where we are not alone.

    It can feel very alone when you are being attacked, especially when it is personal and mean like it is now, but I promise, you are surrounded by friends, and those friends pray for you! Every time you go offline, even briefly, we all miss you greatly, and we miss our interaction together. Many of us increase our prayers for you during those times.

    Though it is not physical – there is a circle of family members who surround you and stand with you, and even better, pray for you.

  8. Michael says:

    WTC,

    LOL! 🙂

    I won’t ignore them…when a brother or sister is unjustly attacked I have to say something or I won’t be able to sleep.

    If you look at their list of “enemies”, you’ll find some of the most godly men in the faith today.

  9. Babylon's Dread says:

    I liked what World Trade Center said… I probably do not need his pamphlet myself. I was called both Emergent and a follower of Todd Bentley…because of one of my former friends research on ODM sites…made me laugh but made me very sad for the friend who left my church telling me that there was no problem but then posted an online rant on another venue about myself and my people. But at least he loves me. He told me so.

  10. Michael says:

    Isaiah 56:1,

    I appreciate that greatly.

    My sadness this morning is for Bro.Sweet…I really pushed him to speak and he probably didn’t need the firestorm that followed.

    In my delirium I actually thought there would be thoughtful interaction around what he wrote…that there would be a release of grace, not more accusation.

    Delirium…

  11. Michael says:

    BD,

    These folks deliver a lot of loving beatings…

  12. Isaiah56:1 says:

    Michael, I think there WAS a release of grace by what Sweet wrote. I am afraid there is a drought of grace available in ODMville, but Sweet’s words spoke to many of us here. I was not familiar with him before, even I’ll admit a bit suspicious, but I was touched by his humility and the grace he showed, mixed with his clear words. After I read his post I did some heart checking, some repenting and praying, wanting my own words to have such a gracious flavor, and I certainly felt an outpouring of grace. From what I read here, I was not the only one. Many of us discovered that we have a long unknown about brother and rejoiced. I think that is where the grace was released,

  13. Michael says:

    Isaiah56:1

    I think you just made my day….my hope was that your scenario was played out somewhere.

    It was…thank you.

  14. Babylon's Dread says:

    ODMs remind me of political talking heads… they build a straw man and then never deviate the course…never actually talk to the guy in the next chair. Nowadays I watch ONE program and then quit. If I watch more than one in a sitting they change me. They bring out my worst bits.

    We should try, like Michael to talk directly to the ODMs, if they refuse we can trust that ordinary people who know the voice of the shepherd will detect the foul and false lies. People are good at sorting things out if they do not overeat the ODM madness. So we should read the ODMs, look for verification from the sources themselves and then make honest decisions.

    Anyway…Isaiah is the Big Tent prophet and his follower above has said well.

    We just gotta keep striding.

  15. Michael says:

    BD,

    Do you have faith that if we let both sides be heard that the sheep will hear the voice of the Shepherd?

    I do…I really do.

  16. Babylon's Dread says:

    Absolutely Michael

    I believe the sheep can tell the real wolves … but not all and not all immediately it takes some time.

    I learned a lesson early in my ministry…Some people got angry with me in my first two weeks one was leader of children’s ministry the other was a deacon. They quit their positions accusing me of something falsely. I could show them wrong and still they would not believe. When they quit i thought I was in deep dodo. A man came to my office early the next day. I thought he wanted to assess the damage. I expected the worst. He said “Pastor this is not as bad as you think. Everyone KNOWS them.”

    In other words when you drop a house on a witch no one thinks she was a princess.

    Yes the sheep know! not always and not perfectly but the sheep know.

  17. Isaiah56:1 says:

    You asked BD – I’d like to pipe in too. I believe that the sheep will hear the voice of the Shepherd, but I also think sometimes it takes a while and sometimes they make mistakes along the way.

    It’s like sometimes in a crowded place a “mom type” will feel a little hand on her leg and look down to discover a child, not her own. The startled child’s look is usually precious and terrified. In a sea of legs, for a minute, one set of mom legs looked like another, but a look up and the child knows the mistake they have made. It would be silly to be mad at the child for making such an error initially, and it is usually pretty quickly fixed.

  18. Isaiah56:1 says:

    “error unintentionally” is what I meant

  19. Michael says:

    “In other words when you drop a house on a witch no one thinks she was a princess.”

    Now that’s funny… 🙂

  20. Michael says:

    Isaiah56:1,

    That was really well said…

  21. Believe says:

    Tell the Truth…and let God sort it out.

    Gotta keep trying. Example how it should be done. Keep pushing for what’s right, in love.

    Don’t ever give up.

    When wrong, repent, and get back up and keep going.

    When right, keep exhorting, keep challenging, keep going.

  22. Believe says:

    WTC said, “see you standing on a Biblical Principle and it will bless some and cause you to be subject to attack from others. Just do what you know God has called you to do.”

    Amen to that.

    I’d add…and you are a man of CHARACTER…which is even more important to me than any doctrine or doctrinal difference outside of the essentials of the Faith.

  23. Tim says:

    Try not to let it get you down, Michael. You attempted to open up dialogue, and their only response was to take your words out of the original context to make you look like the attacker. (Hmm…sounds like their standard operating procedure.)

    Lesson learned? When (or if) you address them again, make sure you use concepts that won’t be misconstrued. Like the Miranda rights, our words can & will be used against us.

    The good thing about all this? I noticed Silva has at least linked to Sweet’s statement now. That’s a bit of progress.

  24. Tim says:

    By the way…I love the graphic. 😆

  25. Michael says:

    Believe,

    We’ll keep on keeping on…this community is priceless and we have a voice.

    Even when I blow it…

  26. Michael says:

    Tim,

    That’s the huge lesson for me, indeed.

    There is a part of me that is still a gunslinger… 🙂

    I am very happy that he finally put that link up….thats a big win.

  27. Michael says:

    I had to crack up yesterday.

    One of the ODM’s was doing an interview about false prophets…with a guy who specializes in UFOs and the Nephilim…

  28. Isaiah56:1 says:

    Tim, I understand the encouragement to be cautious and not tripped up by words out of context – but I think it’s an unfair burden that the ODM’s would like us all to carry. If we have to contemplate how everything we say may be used out of context, we will say much less, function defensively and out of fear, and miss many opportunities to minister, encourage, etc. Those who want to twist words, will twist any and all words. Geez, if you want to be pernsickity you can argue over the definition of the word “is”.

    I think it’s much better to say what’s on your mind and heart, in love and truth, and if you have to clarify something later, use it as an opportunity like Sweet did to example grace and truth and kindness to the family.

  29. Isaiah56:1 says:

    “One of the ODM’s was doing an interview about false prophets…with a guy who specializes in UFOs and the Nephilim…”

    Sounds like the perfect opportunity to write my screen play “Invasion of the Logic Snatchers!”

  30. Tim says:

    Isa56:1 –
    I understand what you’re saying, but I think we need to look at this not much differently than cross-cultural missions. If you go into a different country to speak to people, you need to understand their language & culture & how certain phrases will be interpreted by them. For instance, when I’ve been overseas on short-term trips, I do my best never to use metaphors or slang when using an interpreter…you never know how it will come across.

    Similarly here. Once we have the understanding that whatever we say that the ODM’s disagree with will be interpreted in the least-favorable light, then that helps us know our phrasing.

  31. Babylon's Dread says:

    11:28 Michael…. priceless

    Samson Dread

  32. Isaiah56:1 says:

    Tim, I was also involved in overseas missions for many years. We tried to avoid metaphors and slang too – but I think this is different. This is a case of people scouring the landscape to find things they can use to prove a case they have already decided the verdict on. To give in to that would make me so overly cautious of everything I said, I would remain quiet. It is I think what they want, a culture in which they are the only,and decisive, voice and everyone is silent for fear of being attacked by them. That is a lot of power to give over to people who do not seem to exercise much grace or kindness.

    I would rather speak from my heart and mind, in love, and not filter every word or thought through an ODM filter.

  33. DavidH says:

    Michael,

    I think you have provided a model of grace and heart with this post. Thanks.

    I think Dave Rolph was right about the ODMs, they are best left unread.

  34. Michael says:

    Now he’s going after Matt Chandler…

  35. Em says:

    Michael,”We’ll keep on keeping on…this community is priceless and we have a voice.

    Even when I blow it…”

    just occurred to me that sometimes that is the only way to get people’s attention 😀

    and you need to be heard, Michael

  36. Buster says:

    Wait… I thought they were supposed to be the apologists…

  37. DavidH says:

    Michael – “Now he’s going after Matt Chandler…”

    Will the man ever run out of targets.

  38. deadmanwalking says:

    The only Golden Rule left is there is no Golden Rule
    and intolerance is the only thing that will not be tolerated

  39. Josh Hamrick says:

    Matt Chandler? Geez. Let’s kick a guy while he’s down. If that doesn’t show Silva that he is displaying a lack of grace, nothing will. And his big evidence against Chandler? Apparently Matt was reading Richard Foster.

  40. DavidH says:

    It really seems that someone is trying to incite others. Who’s the next target?

  41. Erunner says:

    In the 70’s I learned of the then false teachers and compromisers. Being as it was the end times we knew scripture spoke of false teachers infiltrating the church. I learned a lot about these folks and also the cults.

    I trusted those who taught me and studied scripture to understand why certain things were so. Sadly it wasn’t long that I was spreading more bad news than good news. I thought my bad news about a world falling apart and the coming antichrist would soften hearts for the good news. It didn’t work that way. I was guilty of leading folks in a escape the tribulation prayer. That fruit doesn’t last.

    Along with so many here I watched an industry born that churned out books rather quickly about the times we lived in. I still have a Constance Cumby book as well as Salem Kirban and some others.

    I was taught that the Copeland’s of the world always had to hype folks up to keep them excited and so they came up with all sorts of methods to do that. Ironically it seemed the watchmen of the day were doing the same thing with their sensationalistic books and tapes and seminars. It produced much fruit that didn’t last.

    Darwin Fish must be smiling as we go about exposing one another while damning the consequences. What I see around me so often are people that are afraid. Every news event is a possible domino that could set off the end of days. Even though these folks are pre trib they don’t seem to have much peace.

    We aren’t making disciples as much as we are making stepford believers in many instances. This is to our shame.

    I always have believed the Gospel message is quite simple. Yet we are at one another’s throats so often over stuff that in the long run really doesn’t matter. And as we continue down a more sophisticated path we routinely see folks whose eyes aren’t on Jesus stumbling and falling big time to the point we aren’t surprised any more. Holiness has become legalism and grace has become easy believism.

    Meanwhile believers serve God unnoticed and without fanfare as they do the real work of the kingdom. They have much to teach us all.

  42. Believe says:

    Michael said, “The strangest thing I’ve experienced yet in my Christian walk is how alone one gets when they open their heart to all who call on the name of Jesus.”

    I empathize with your heart on that one.

    Strangely, though, it was at my spiritually loneliest point that God spoke to me.

  43. BrianD says:

    It’s as much about Richard Foster as it is about Matt Chandler.

  44. Believe says:

    E…good stuff.

  45. BrianD says:

    Erunner, my experience is that sort of theology has not enough gospel and too much paranoia and man-driven negativity.

    Cumby math: VISA = 666

    It actually does a disservice to good prophetic teachers as they end up painted with the same wacky broad brush as the alarmists.

  46. Buster says:

    Excellent, Erunner.

  47. Erunner says:

    Thanks Believe and Buster.

    BrianD, I agree with you. We have a way of mucking things up. Exactly who are the good prophetic teachers? That could start a food fight! 🙂 Again, thank you for your hard work.

  48. WTC says:

    Motion to recognize ‘Erunner’ as our Senior Prophet, Michael as our Senior Apostle…
    Watch out Kansas City…Here we come!

    Motion to recognize Believe as our 5 Star Military General!

    I could go on…but I don’t want to offend anyone. : )

  49. filbertz says:

    How does one specialize in Nephalim? What is the singular form of Nephalim, Nephali?
    You’ve gotta have really itchy ears to sit through a presentation on Nephalim. Even the word sounds like my dog sneezing. Maybe he does a follow up routine on baptism for the dead.

  50. Not Alone says:

    I feel for you Michael.

    You must be wrong if you don’t have thousands sitting in your seats weekly or if you don’t have a new book on the market or you are not invited to speak at their conferences. If you are not in with those who way what the in is—then you must be wrong….

    That makes me sick to my stomach and itching mad.

  51. Believe says:

    WTC…motion seconded…now go open some closets…that’s an order! 🙂

  52. Bill Kinnon says:

    Michael,
    You’re human and transparent. You remind me of a dear friend recently gone home, also named Michael.

    This site always points me to the One who loves us. Even when you occasionally blow it (though I don’t think a passionate response qualifies as “blowing it.”) 🙂

  53. Michael says:

    Bill,

    I’m not in his league, but that means a lot to me…thank you.

  54. Believe says:

    David H said, “Will the man ever run out of targets.”

    Think rapture. 8)

  55. centorian says:

    It seems we live in a day where we are measured more for how we interact with the rest of the body of Christ than anything else. There is little room for charity in today’s church. We pride ourselves in understanding, both the given Word and commentative discourse of men. We have boiled down the mysteries of the faith to a formula. We have faith… mainly in ourselves and in the construct we have formed, yet we admittedly proclaim our faith is in Him. We practice the gifts, especially when others are there to “benefit” from the “ministry”, and we’ve involved ourselves in social practices and causes… Our altruistic measures are self feeding.

    We proclaim our faith, our “rightness” in Kingdom. And for proof, we offer up as exhibit A, our doctrine, or our practice; that is our good works. We point toward these things in verification of our relationship to God . We have constructed a circular argument. The truth is we are faithless, loveless, profitless, a clanging cymbal. We are nothing. And we need to repent.

    1Cor 13:1-3 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. (ESV)

  56. Michael says:

    Px2,

    The only thing wrong with your article is that you didn’t write it here! 🙂

    Like I said…you wrote me under the table.

  57. Michael says:

    Centy,

    That was the post of the week.

    Amen.

  58. Bryan Stupar says:

    Michael,
    These ODM’s are totally out-a-control, this is obvious to most!

    They’re like killer bee’s on a honey thief. They search, scrutinize, investigate, looking for reasons to accuse & blame…In this sense, their actions resemble Satan’s (Hebrew: “the accuser”; “the adversary”), instead of their Saviors’.

    I often wish there was a higher court of appeal, becasue their unrelenting viciousness just seems unfair. Yet, there is such a court and God is judge. He’ll intervene, and his judgment will be fair. These guys are our brothers, though misguided. The ultimate penalty of their sin has been dealt with at the cross, though their actions will be held in check by our Father.

    Vengeance (and parental discipline) belongs to God. It may be time to just ignore these guys and give them no more attention. Paul’s closing words of advice to the Romans, needs to be the grid WE view the world through….

    …Let love be genuine.
    …Abhor what is evil;
    …hold fast to what is good.
    …Love one another with brotherly affection.
    …Outdo one another in showing honor.

    …Rejoice in hope,
    …be patient in tribulation

    …Bless those who persecute you; (bless and do not curse them)
    …Live in harmony with one another
    …Do not be haughty, (but associate with the lowly)

    …Repay no one evil for evil (give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all)
    …live peaceably with all (so far as it depends on you)
    …never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.
    [Romans 12:9-19]

    be of good cheer, this blog blesses many.
    Praying for you!

  59. Nonnie says:

    Pastor, Pastor and Michael, Where can I find the article PX2 wrote that you referred to in your 4:24PM post? I haven’t been online for a while and would like to read it.
    Thanks

  60. Captain Kevin says:

    …not really reformed.

    Right, and tigers don’t have stripes, elephants don’t have trunks, the pope isn’t catholic, Skip Heitzig didn’t get himself into a mess, and Todd “Bam Bam” Bentley isn’t a whack job! Riiiiight.

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