āAs iron sharpens iron, so a person sharpens his friend.ā (Prov 27:17)
Iām not saying that Iām āironā, but whatever substance I am, this blog is sharpening my own understanding of so many things. Here are a few of the many things I learned or remembered this week:
āMy mom said if you canāt think of anything good to say about a person, not to say anything at all.ā Xenia
āI find it foolish to divide over the Eucharistā¦.It is beyond understanding and I accept that part of what I believe is correct, probably isnāt.ā Michael
āMy guess is that the grace of God is so broad and deep that He overlooks their errors (and mine) and feeds us anyway when we take Supper in faith.ā Michael
āIrreverence is to miss the presence of Jesus in the midst of the company shared, the remembrance of Jesus, His life, birth, death, resurrection & ascension and promise to abide with His followers, individually and wherever 2 or more are gathered.ā G
āEucharist makes sense cause it is participation in the tree of life. It is participation in life itself. The shadow points to the reality.ā BD
āthe scriptures say that we have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved. Salvation is an ongoing thingā¦.ā MLD
āā¦we have been saved from the penalty of our sins. All of them. Justification. We are being saved from the power of sin to rule our lives. Sanctification. We will be saved from the presence of sin. Glorification.ā Steve Wright
āIf I believed in MLDās 241 [Ulrich Zwingli thread], Iād revive the Crusades.ā Jim [Okay – that’s just plain funny; I don’t care who you are!]
āyet there is the story of the prophet (Hosea? [yes]) who had to keep going and retrieving his unfaithful wife, so God knows and I imitate the angels and just watch and wonderā¦with the cross as my still point in the chaos.ā Em
So I process all the great comments made by readers of PhxPr (these and others), and in the process I grow by seeing life or the Scriptures a little differently than before. Occasionally, I may change my mind on a topic; other times, I may retain my belief with more conviction; still other times I may learn the complexity of an issue and leave room for personal growth and/or honest differences among believers.
Churches tend to be relatively homogenous in their theology, so I don’t have the opportunity to test, challenge and/or question different interpretations, doctrines and theologies in my home church, because one must have competent advocates on all sides of an issue to have a meaningful debate. Thatās where PhxPr is a real blessing. Here is a stable of articulate believers from diverse backgrounds who together share diverse perspectives on biblical issues. Thank you everyone! Have a great weekend!
Earlier we spoke about men and women – not sure if you all saw but there is an experimental ebola serum, but only enough for one person. The man (age 33) insisted the woman (age 59) be given it. THAT is the sort of thing many of us, I believe, were trying to express. And the sort of thing that many of the men here trying to express that, would do as well.
The charity also said that Brantly, 33, requested that the experimental drug ā a serum ā that arrived in Liberia on Wednesday be given to Writebol, 59. There was only enough for one person, Samaritanās Purse said.
Since I am a bit weary of discussing this elsewhere… we mostly know each other here so this is a place where some sense can come forth. If not at least we will not feel the need to destroy one another.
Hey Babs,
I agree with Colin Chapman in this article. Geez, who even knew he was still around. The one part I disagree with (well, I am not really disagreeing because he didn’t bring it up) – but the fact that the Muslim world does not participate to make the life of Palestinians in Gaza better is really an issue.
There is enough wealth in the Middle East to make the Palestinians a happy people … but they do not want that. They want the Palestinians to be the agitators in this mess and to initiate terrorist attacks.
Michael, all over the Middle east it’s been about dispossession/oppression. That’s the environment in which Islamic fundamentalism took root. Iran, Syria, Palestine, Egypt. Where else to the poor and disposed turn?
Our son, daughter-in-law and grandson were rear ended while at a complete stop coming home from a camping trip. Christina is about 8 months pregnant. Stephen hit his head on the steering wheel and Christina hit her head on the windshield and is experiencing a lot of pain. Connor seems okay. If you see this please pray their unborn child is okay and that Stephen’s and Christina’s injuries are nothing serious. Thank you.
Michael – none of these wars are religious, they are always politcal and almost always fight over borders.
I used to laugh at people who when speaking about the war between Britain and Northern Ireland would say “look how religion causes war.” – as if the Catholics and Protestants were fighting over Bible verses.
The Arabs and Israeli’s are the same way – first both are ignorant about their religion – most, on both sides don’t believe or live their religion.
Last week, we discussed the meaning of Romans 7 and whether Paul was describing himself in the present, past or as a representative Israelite. If you’re interested in learning more about Romans 7, here is a link to an 8 minute U Tube presentation on the topic from a well known NT scholar.
#13 – strictly Wesleyan theology – the path is clear for the Christian to reach sinless perfection if he put his mind to it.
Paul states the problem for the Christian in ch 7 – he then, at the very end of 7 shows Jesus as the solution to the very real problem the Christian faces, continual sin – and what is that solution Jesus provides? Not sinlessness – not even a lessening of sin, but the removal of condemnation for that sin.
It doesn’t make sense to say that there is no condemnation for people who no longer sin.
Funny note – why did Witherington when quoting Peter do so with a British accent? š
I didn’t post the link to convince die hard dogmatics. I posted the link for people who want to take a deeper dive. Before I even knew about the link, in my defense of my understanding of Romans 7 I cited the same texts as Witherington for the position, and nothing that either Packer or anyone else has said has rebutted those texts.
In addition, I have also previously stated that the Bible is not particularly receptive to systematic theologies because of the tendency to mute or subordinate texts which don’t fit nicely in one box or the other. There is no bigger example than sanctification. I understand that Luther had a lot of issues with “effort” and the Roman Church and it is my belief that he muted some of the texts which command Christians to get the s**t together. “Put on” “renew the mind” the Book of James, etc.
Wesley was as human as anyone else. I’m sure when we get to him, we’ll get a look at all his dirt too. I can’t wait š
I’m not a die hard dogmatic on this issue.
Gordon Fee does a good job with your view as do others.
However, if you’re going to base a view on a new method of exegeting Romans by a doctrinal student at Asbury, that dissertation better get very wide distribution and critical review.
Michael, I hope you know I don’t consider you a dogmatic and if you thought I was referring to you, then I apologize.
I don’t know why Ben through the doctoral student a bone in the presentation, but It’s not innovative to see the Adam/Christ comparison throughout Romans. Paul had to go back to Adam to make his argument that the Jews and Gentiles are in the same boat. I think this is consistent with Wright, Woo and probably most Romans scholars.
So, whether you agree or disagree with Ben’s presentation, it shouldn’t be on the basis that a doctoral thesis was mentioned.
“#13 ā strictly Wesleyan theology ā the path is clear for the Christian to reach sinless perfection if he put his mind to it.”
If Wesleyan theology doesn’t tickle your fancy, try the Apostle Paul’s theology:
“You were taught with reference to your former way of life to lay aside the old man who is being corrupted in accordance with deceitful desires, to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and to put on the new man who has been created in Godās imageāin righteousness and holiness that comes from truth.” (Eph 4:22-24)
“And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. You must put away all bitterness, anger, wrath, quarreling, and slanderous talkāindeed all malice. Instead, be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ also forgave you. (Eph 4:30-32)
“For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.” (Rom 6:19b)
Now, if this was all we had from Paul, it would look like there’s no grace. It would look like it’s all us. That would be a distortion. Let’s not distort in either direction. Let’s listen to the melody of Scripture with all its notes.
I have a prayer request.
I have spent all day trying to get an alternator off my truck.
Usually this is not a hard task that I have done many times before, but the owner who changed it last tightened the bolts down super strength.
This has now resulted in a stripped head on one of the bolts and it still is not off.
I just got back from Lowes where I had to buy a special bolt grip set.
I am hoping this will help me tomorrow to get the bolt off when I have light to work again.
Pray for peace of mind for me as this has been a stressful day and that I can get it off.
Update, Connor is fine and here with us. Christina is being kept several hours as her amniotic fluid is low so they’re hydrating her and watching her. Stephen was looked over and they said he’s fine but I think he’ll go see a neurologist as he’s had 3 or 4 past concussions. Thank God everything seems fine. Thank you for praying.
Too many “Jesus Jukes” on Facebook. I can’t take it anymore. Immature Christians displaying their boring world views and mediocre Christian doctrine for all to see,
“The charity also said that Brantly, 33, requested that the experimental drug ā a serum ā that arrived in Liberia on Wednesday be given to Writebol, 59. There was only enough for one person, Samaritanās Purse said.”
Amen to this, and it was science that brought this about, and it will be science that will do this vile disease the death blow, much like small pox and polio. God directed the science and deserves all the Glory, why a transcendent being and creator of all needs glory I dont know but He deserves it. All that aside it will be science that will kill this scourge through the grace of God alone. If this thing gets away from us and spreads millions if not billions could be effected. We agree there is no glory in some poor soul dying in horrid pain bleeding through almost every orpheus. Its just an awful way to die. Period. If we spent more on defeating such diseases and less on say fighting two unwinnable wars maybe its money better spent, but what do I know.
I want to thank everyone who prayed for me. The Lord was gracious.
I have been hard at it all morning and finally the bolt broke loose 5 minutes ago.
Haven’t completely taken the alternator off yet, but the heavy lifting is done.
It is hot outside and I am going to rehydrate before I finish the job.
Too many āJesus Jukesā on Facebook. I canāt take it anymore. Immature Christians displaying their boring world views and mediocre Christian doctrine for all to see,
Yep let’s ban them, and burn their books too. Bah! And then let’s force them to listen to hours of sermons from …….. well, I better not say. The greatest thing about social media is that it goes away at the flick of a mouse or swipe of a finger. I think Facebook has a definite shelf life and I wonder if it will be around in 10-20 years? Let’s hope not.
I understand there’s been this belief that there is no such thing as a Christian Jew. Yet, it boggles my mind why anyone would dare to say this in light of scripture and historical records. So the response I received to my question led me to search further as I am a Jew and a Christian and I make no apology in being so. It does, however, grieve me to know their are Christians who would say that one cannot be Jewish and a Christian at the same time. Because of this, historically speaking much has been loss —- including the lives of many who were Jews and claimed the Messiah as their Lord and Savior, from before the RCC and thereafter.
It’s all yours today…
āAs iron sharpens iron, so a person sharpens his friend.ā (Prov 27:17)
Iām not saying that Iām āironā, but whatever substance I am, this blog is sharpening my own understanding of so many things. Here are a few of the many things I learned or remembered this week:
āMy mom said if you canāt think of anything good to say about a person, not to say anything at all.ā Xenia
āI find it foolish to divide over the Eucharistā¦.It is beyond understanding and I accept that part of what I believe is correct, probably isnāt.ā Michael
āMy guess is that the grace of God is so broad and deep that He overlooks their errors (and mine) and feeds us anyway when we take Supper in faith.ā Michael
āIrreverence is to miss the presence of Jesus in the midst of the company shared, the remembrance of Jesus, His life, birth, death, resurrection & ascension and promise to abide with His followers, individually and wherever 2 or more are gathered.ā G
āEucharist makes sense cause it is participation in the tree of life. It is participation in life itself. The shadow points to the reality.ā BD
āthe scriptures say that we have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved. Salvation is an ongoing thingā¦.ā MLD
āā¦we have been saved from the penalty of our sins. All of them. Justification. We are being saved from the power of sin to rule our lives. Sanctification. We will be saved from the presence of sin. Glorification.ā Steve Wright
āIf I believed in MLDās 241 [Ulrich Zwingli thread], Iād revive the Crusades.ā Jim [Okay – that’s just plain funny; I don’t care who you are!]
āyet there is the story of the prophet (Hosea? [yes]) who had to keep going and retrieving his unfaithful wife, so God knows and I imitate the angels and just watch and wonderā¦with the cross as my still point in the chaos.ā Em
So I process all the great comments made by readers of PhxPr (these and others), and in the process I grow by seeing life or the Scriptures a little differently than before. Occasionally, I may change my mind on a topic; other times, I may retain my belief with more conviction; still other times I may learn the complexity of an issue and leave room for personal growth and/or honest differences among believers.
Churches tend to be relatively homogenous in their theology, so I don’t have the opportunity to test, challenge and/or question different interpretations, doctrines and theologies in my home church, because one must have competent advocates on all sides of an issue to have a meaningful debate. Thatās where PhxPr is a real blessing. Here is a stable of articulate believers from diverse backgrounds who together share diverse perspectives on biblical issues. Thank you everyone! Have a great weekend!
Jean,
That…was really encouraging to me.
I thought Xenia’s maxim about restraining the tongue was the best of the lot.
Jean. Word.
I don’t think I followed my own advice very well.
Earlier we spoke about men and women – not sure if you all saw but there is an experimental ebola serum, but only enough for one person. The man (age 33) insisted the woman (age 59) be given it. THAT is the sort of thing many of us, I believe, were trying to express. And the sort of thing that many of the men here trying to express that, would do as well.
The charity also said that Brantly, 33, requested that the experimental drug ā a serum ā that arrived in Liberia on Wednesday be given to Writebol, 59. There was only enough for one person, Samaritanās Purse said.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/08/01/5080188/american-missionaries-with-ebola.html#.U90iU3l0waI
http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/articles/trying-to-make-sense-of-gaza/
Since I am a bit weary of discussing this elsewhere… we mostly know each other here so this is a place where some sense can come forth. If not at least we will not feel the need to destroy one another.
Hey Babs,
I agree with Colin Chapman in this article. Geez, who even knew he was still around. The one part I disagree with (well, I am not really disagreeing because he didn’t bring it up) – but the fact that the Muslim world does not participate to make the life of Palestinians in Gaza better is really an issue.
There is enough wealth in the Middle East to make the Palestinians a happy people … but they do not want that. They want the Palestinians to be the agitators in this mess and to initiate terrorist attacks.
But he is right about the causes.
“But the root cause of the conflict is dispossession rather than religion. ”
If that is the case…and I’d need more convincing…it changes the entire paradigm this should be viewed in.
Michael, all over the Middle east it’s been about dispossession/oppression. That’s the environment in which Islamic fundamentalism took root. Iran, Syria, Palestine, Egypt. Where else to the poor and disposed turn?
Our son, daughter-in-law and grandson were rear ended while at a complete stop coming home from a camping trip. Christina is about 8 months pregnant. Stephen hit his head on the steering wheel and Christina hit her head on the windshield and is experiencing a lot of pain. Connor seems okay. If you see this please pray their unborn child is okay and that Stephen’s and Christina’s injuries are nothing serious. Thank you.
Michael – none of these wars are religious, they are always politcal and almost always fight over borders.
I used to laugh at people who when speaking about the war between Britain and Northern Ireland would say “look how religion causes war.” – as if the Catholics and Protestants were fighting over Bible verses.
The Arabs and Israeli’s are the same way – first both are ignorant about their religion – most, on both sides don’t believe or live their religion.
It is strictly political.
Last week, we discussed the meaning of Romans 7 and whether Paul was describing himself in the present, past or as a representative Israelite. If you’re interested in learning more about Romans 7, here is a link to an 8 minute U Tube presentation on the topic from a well known NT scholar.
http://seedbed.com/feed/romans-7-teach-christians-will-continue-sinning/
Jean,
No offense, but that was most unconvincing.
We’ll agree to disagree on this one.
No problem. If it were most convincing, Romans 7 wouldn’t be a divisive text.
#13 – strictly Wesleyan theology – the path is clear for the Christian to reach sinless perfection if he put his mind to it.
Paul states the problem for the Christian in ch 7 – he then, at the very end of 7 shows Jesus as the solution to the very real problem the Christian faces, continual sin – and what is that solution Jesus provides? Not sinlessness – not even a lessening of sin, but the removal of condemnation for that sin.
It doesn’t make sense to say that there is no condemnation for people who no longer sin.
Funny note – why did Witherington when quoting Peter do so with a British accent? š
Praying E
Hope they are all ok
Well said Jean.
I didn’t post the link to convince die hard dogmatics. I posted the link for people who want to take a deeper dive. Before I even knew about the link, in my defense of my understanding of Romans 7 I cited the same texts as Witherington for the position, and nothing that either Packer or anyone else has said has rebutted those texts.
In addition, I have also previously stated that the Bible is not particularly receptive to systematic theologies because of the tendency to mute or subordinate texts which don’t fit nicely in one box or the other. There is no bigger example than sanctification. I understand that Luther had a lot of issues with “effort” and the Roman Church and it is my belief that he muted some of the texts which command Christians to get the s**t together. “Put on” “renew the mind” the Book of James, etc.
Wesley was as human as anyone else. I’m sure when we get to him, we’ll get a look at all his dirt too. I can’t wait š
E, praying.
Jean,
I’m not a die hard dogmatic on this issue.
Gordon Fee does a good job with your view as do others.
However, if you’re going to base a view on a new method of exegeting Romans by a doctrinal student at Asbury, that dissertation better get very wide distribution and critical review.
Michael, I hope you know I don’t consider you a dogmatic and if you thought I was referring to you, then I apologize.
I don’t know why Ben through the doctoral student a bone in the presentation, but It’s not innovative to see the Adam/Christ comparison throughout Romans. Paul had to go back to Adam to make his argument that the Jews and Gentiles are in the same boat. I think this is consistent with Wright, Woo and probably most Romans scholars.
So, whether you agree or disagree with Ben’s presentation, it shouldn’t be on the basis that a doctoral thesis was mentioned.
Praying E
“#13 ā strictly Wesleyan theology ā the path is clear for the Christian to reach sinless perfection if he put his mind to it.”
If Wesleyan theology doesn’t tickle your fancy, try the Apostle Paul’s theology:
“You were taught with reference to your former way of life to lay aside the old man who is being corrupted in accordance with deceitful desires, to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and to put on the new man who has been created in Godās imageāin righteousness and holiness that comes from truth.” (Eph 4:22-24)
“And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. You must put away all bitterness, anger, wrath, quarreling, and slanderous talkāindeed all malice. Instead, be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ also forgave you. (Eph 4:30-32)
“For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.” (Rom 6:19b)
Now, if this was all we had from Paul, it would look like there’s no grace. It would look like it’s all us. That would be a distortion. Let’s not distort in either direction. Let’s listen to the melody of Scripture with all its notes.
Praying for E’s situation.
I have a prayer request.
I have spent all day trying to get an alternator off my truck.
Usually this is not a hard task that I have done many times before, but the owner who changed it last tightened the bolts down super strength.
This has now resulted in a stripped head on one of the bolts and it still is not off.
I just got back from Lowes where I had to buy a special bolt grip set.
I am hoping this will help me tomorrow to get the bolt off when I have light to work again.
Pray for peace of mind for me as this has been a stressful day and that I can get it off.
Praying for Derek and E.
Update, Connor is fine and here with us. Christina is being kept several hours as her amniotic fluid is low so they’re hydrating her and watching her. Stephen was looked over and they said he’s fine but I think he’ll go see a neurologist as he’s had 3 or 4 past concussions. Thank God everything seems fine. Thank you for praying.
Praying for you and your family e. This is always a stressful situation for all.
Praying for you Derek. What a pain in the butt these things can be. It will come off just fine tomorrow I’m sure.
Too many “Jesus Jukes” on Facebook. I can’t take it anymore. Immature Christians displaying their boring world views and mediocre Christian doctrine for all to see,
Derek, if you hadn’t already soak the bolts/threads with penetrating oil over night. Easy out from Lowes?
Just saw Erunner’s prayer request and praying here.
“The charity also said that Brantly, 33, requested that the experimental drug ā a serum ā that arrived in Liberia on Wednesday be given to Writebol, 59. There was only enough for one person, Samaritanās Purse said.”
Amen to this, and it was science that brought this about, and it will be science that will do this vile disease the death blow, much like small pox and polio. God directed the science and deserves all the Glory, why a transcendent being and creator of all needs glory I dont know but He deserves it. All that aside it will be science that will kill this scourge through the grace of God alone. If this thing gets away from us and spreads millions if not billions could be effected. We agree there is no glory in some poor soul dying in horrid pain bleeding through almost every orpheus. Its just an awful way to die. Period. If we spent more on defeating such diseases and less on say fighting two unwinnable wars maybe its money better spent, but what do I know.
This helped me more than anything on the subject:
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/why.israel.will.never.get.everything.it.wants/39241.htm
Derek,
You can dooooo it! Keep us updated.
Try “come out, in Jesus’ name!”
Most of my mechanical repairs have required miracle, small or large.
I want to thank everyone who prayed for me. The Lord was gracious.
I have been hard at it all morning and finally the bolt broke loose 5 minutes ago.
Haven’t completely taken the alternator off yet, but the heavy lifting is done.
It is hot outside and I am going to rehydrate before I finish the job.
Yes Neo. “Immature Christians” should be banned from FB!
Let’s start a petition. š
God, I miss Gary Coleman.
Too many āJesus Jukesā on Facebook. I canāt take it anymore. Immature Christians displaying their boring world views and mediocre Christian doctrine for all to see,
Yep let’s ban them, and burn their books too. Bah! And then let’s force them to listen to hours of sermons from …….. well, I better not say. The greatest thing about social media is that it goes away at the flick of a mouse or swipe of a finger. I think Facebook has a definite shelf life and I wonder if it will be around in 10-20 years? Let’s hope not.
London. You infringed on my copyright.
Call a lawyer.
My Lawyer is Jesus Christ, our Advocate in Heaven. #jesusjuke
Well, he likes me best so I guess you’re outta luck!
I understand there’s been this belief that there is no such thing as a Christian Jew. Yet, it boggles my mind why anyone would dare to say this in light of scripture and historical records. So the response I received to my question led me to search further as I am a Jew and a Christian and I make no apology in being so. It does, however, grieve me to know their are Christians who would say that one cannot be Jewish and a Christian at the same time. Because of this, historically speaking much has been loss —- including the lives of many who were Jews and claimed the Messiah as their Lord and Savior, from before the RCC and thereafter.
What happened to the Jews who were Christians?
http://www.messianicinsight.com/2011/03/when-did-church-stop-being-jewish.html