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Free Leonard Peltier!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/politics/government/leonard-peltier-senator-brian-schatz-urges-biden-to-grant-clemency-in-powerful-speech/ar-AA1vkYhn?ocid=BingNewsSerp
Michael, I don’t know if this is worth me laying this out for perspective and discussion…
What’s the spectrum of church discipline (or lack thereof):
The bad, (where discipline is nonexistent to lacking)
to
where church discipline happens in a good way?
•many pastors caught in moral failures, especially gross ones like adultery
–no one effectively does anything
–one or more staff members say something, try to take action but they are fired up or ignored
–some vote with their feet and leave, many stay (to our frequent PP perplexity)
–quickie restoration to full ministry like Todd Bentley (with adultery and marrying the mistress)
*we prolly have lots of these examples from the PP*
•some “middle paths”
–what does that look like?
—SBC boards fire senior pastors over insubstantial factors, or things like praying in tongues
•real Matthew 18 church discipline happens
–church boards lay out real plans of repentance and restoration
BUT
—guys like Mark Driscoll won’t submit and follow through (if that’s what happened)
(a similar story happened in my childhood church)
OR
–real repentance and restoration happens
DOES ANYONE have public examples? private examples you could describe without exposing the person?
The perspective could really help…
jtk,
I’ve been thinking on this a bit…and I think we no longer understand much about the original intent of church discipline.
It’s evident from a reading of NT texts that belonging to a group of believers wasn’t optional, nor was there a plethora of churches to choose from…you attended and lived with and among those close to you.
Being excluded from the church was tantamount to being excluded from the Body of Christ…according to Paul, you were “turned over to Satan”.
A real believer could not endure such and would repent and do what was necessary to be restored to the Body.
Belonging to the church and staying in the church were matters of eternal life and death.
Without that understanding of the church, church discipline simply doesn’t have any bite.
Unfortunately, today, accountability is up to the individual.
It’s not always fun, but I have people in my life who can call me to account anytime they choose.
Anyone in my church can call me into account anytime they choose.
I’ve never wandered too far off the reservation, but I have had some attitude checks over the years…
Unfortunately, today, accountability is up to the individual.<<<
This is not universally true.
I know a case in an EO parish in another part of the state where the priest was discovered trading overly familiar texts with a female parishioner. Nothing lewd, just overly familiar with the potential to escalate. He was fired and nearly defrocked. He's not a terrible person, either, but he crossed the line between priest and parishioner.
Here's the thing. Most American Christians, especially Baptist-types, which includes most non-denoms, are very anti-authoritarian. They do not want a hierarchy of bishops in authority over them. Yet when things go wrong, they complain that there should be some recourse when in fact, there is none because that's what they want- freedom from all authority.
God created he world to be hierarchical. Lose the hierarchy and you lose civilization, and this applies to more than just religion.
Without that understanding of the church, church discipline simply doesn’t have any bite.<<<
This is 100% correct.
I neglected to mention that in the example I gave above, the priest was fired by the bishop. It wasn’t a case of the congregation ousting him; they had no authority in the matter. The bishop did what he was required by God to do without being influenced by the emotions of the parish, which had great affection for the priest.
Something a little different.
Back in Black on an acoustic guitar cover.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=back+in+black+acoustic+guitar&mid=9234BFEF64BED04090D09234BFEF64BED04090D0&FORM=VIRE
Maybe it’s only ironic to me when I first started attending “church,” the “authoritarian” perspective was one of my first attractions, because, though I didn’t think of it before my conversion, the very fact the my leaders didn’t allow the Wild West, evidenced the ministry was something unique, which I guess I interpreted as validation of God’s blessing.
Like I said it was really a conscious or premeditated though process on my part, but using hindsight I’m certain had I had even a whiff of unaccountability, I would’ve sprinted away as I already had enough of the emptiness and powerlessness of the world.
In other words, proving a group of people can walk of the Spirit is proof of a different life, which itself evidences authentic relationship with Jesus.
I had enough abuse, lying, obfuscation, cover-ups, etc.
This is one reason I’m not surprised so many ministries have and continue to close,
or rip-off/cannibalize others for a “new work,” only to have the same done to them.
Not only have we (the Body) solidified phoniness, we’ve created a parody of Jesus to the world which says He’s schizophrenic, or at the very least confused/contradictory.
Sorry, I meant
“it was NOT really a conscious “
Very cool, pstrmike!
Reuben,
when I watched the video, I thought you would enjoy it.
Church discipline has become pastors pushing back against dissent and by continually putting guilt for sins on a congregation of people who don’t worship them or submit to the insane tyrant or narcissistic abuse of authority.
People who have the gift of the imputed righteousness of Christ don’t need leadership like that, which is completely evil.
They would rather try to send a true Christian to hell then share identity with them as sanctified sinners. They have an us versus them mentally and believe themselves to be superior overseers of a flock of stupid sheep.
They have become pastor/abusers which deserve to be overthrown. Instead one will be cast out, disfellowshipped and labeled divisive and then corporately shunned.
“We don’t need an elbow attached to an ear” they will say to try to justify their behavior.