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  1. Em says:

    don’t we tend to think of Evangelicalism when we think of American Christianity? this man was a Presbyterian and far from the “singin, shoutin, hallelujah, glory” crowd… but maybe how we express our Faith (capital ‘F’) is always going to reflect the society we live within…

    Quaker Oats was pretty subliminal in its affect as i’ve never associated that chubby guy in the blue suit with anything but homemade oatmeal cookies (best recipe ever is on the lid)

    “it was good for Paul and Silas and it’s good enough for me” … that’s The truth

  2. Em says:

    “singin, shoutin, stompin, hallelujah glory” … left out one 🙂

  3. Michael says:

    The article points out something that is very evident here.
    We all have our own standard for orthodoxy.

  4. Em says:

    something that can get lost in the haze of history is that the common, really ‘common’ working man – whether he was a freed slave or a starving Irishman just off the boat – was relegated to a very low place within the historical Establishment churches … that didn’t make that common man more virtuous, but it made him want to worship God and submit to religious authorities that ‘respected’ him … it was natural to look for affirmation among the Baptists, Quakers etc.

  5. Speaking of new reads – this showed up in the mail yesterday

    Michael, the first article is by JI Packer

    I’m not very bright when ordering so I just click on what comes up. Here the book is $27.98 which I was willing to pay – but I clicked on the blue links right below the price and found another vendor selling the book new for $11. Who knew?

  6. Em says:

    #6- MLD, that’s another thing that gets lost among the critics of the Faith … it really is for tough minded people … it holds up very well … perhaps, it’s because i have found absolutely nothing lacking in it, but i do find those picking at its weaknesses and contradictions-so-called are very sophomoric in their mental processing

    just sayin – IMNSHO – again

  7. Michael says:


    That’s about as diverse a group of authors as I’ve ever seen.
    JWM might be the most obnoxious genius in Christendom…I’ve never been able to get farther than a few minutes listening to him.
    That’s probably my loss.

  8. Michael – I am sure the ‘obnoxious’ comes from him being LCMS 😉

    I can’t get enough of the guy … but I only understand about half of what he writes – but listening to him is pretty clear.

    I think he operates under the premise that reason is the only thing not affected by the fall 🙂

  9. Michael says:

    Just to be clear…I’m a huge fan of the LCMS.

    I think they are the true keepers of the Lutheran Reformation and I greatly admire their commitment to scholarship and doctrine.

    Remember…when Issues Etc. was under fire I was one of the first blogs to take up arms for them…

  10. brian says:

    “that reason is the only thing not affected by the fall ”

    And in the “age” of “faith” we had what? One answer, you are typing on one of the devices that came out of the age of reason supposedly affected by some supposed fall.

  11. brian says:

    ooops not affected, sorry ignore my last but it still is an interesting concept as I have heard from some folks that our reason is twisted and dulled to such a point that we cant really understand anything.

  12. Michael – yes you were right at the forefront of the Issues thing. That turmoil was a lesson in how the ‘people’ fix their own problems in a Church. That was a bottom up revolt that within 3 yrs turned the LCMS back right-side up and eliminated much of the “we want to be like the evangelicals” leadership.

    For those who don’t know – Issues etc was kicked off the air by the LCMS radio station for being too Lutheran. But the fight still continues as their are renegade groups that secretly want to be Calvary Chapel type churches but are too chicken s**t to just leave.

  13. brian – your #11 and #12 show that diminished reason is a reality 😉 reason is not twisted as you say – but it probably is dulled – otherwise why did you just have that problem?

    As to the “by some supposed fall.” perhaps this is at the root of your issues / problems with the faith community as you call it (I have no category for that term so I take it on faith you know what it means). You are trying to work within a system that requires a fall that needs fixing and Jesus is the answer to need — when you don’t believe there is a fall that needs fixing – so why Jesus?

    If I were like you and doubted the fall as only something “supposed” I would cut all ties to Jesus and Christianity and run to reason alone – so I don’t know why you stay – like I say I would have said adios long ago.

  14. Em says:

    “If I were like you and doubted the fall as only something “supposed” I would cut all ties to Jesus and Christianity and run to reason alone – so I don’t know why you stay – like I say I would have said adios long ago.” well, that was ungracious, but it does prove the fall lol

  15. Hmm, it makes me wonder why my comment is labeled ungracious but brian’s dismissive comment about my view of the fall was not addressed. Besides, all I did was say what I would do in his situation – I didn’t tell him what to do.

    Em, if you believed that the fall was a fairy tale, would you remain a Christian?

  16. Surfer51 says:

    One of my all time favorite books in all of Christendom outside of the Bible.

    The Knowledge Of The Holy
    By A.W. Tozer

    You can read it for free online here:

  17. Em says:

    MLD, prefaced with an “if I were you” a comment sounds more like a suggestion…

    “Em, if you believed that the fall was a fairy tale, would you remain a Christian?”

    if i thought that the fall of Adam and Eve was “made up,” hmmm…

    if i thought it was made up solely to manipulate people, i probably wouldn’t give anything that followed much weight…
    if i thought it was made up with good intentions by ancient writers wanting to explain why we can’t “walk with and talk with God” anymore – implying that they thot we once did, it would pique my curiosity and i’d read on giving my own credibility judgements on all the rest… which might allow me to see Jesus as the Christ and my hope of salvation… but then i’d miss a whole lot – a whole lot!!!
    but, if i deny the depravity of man totally then i’m living the fairy tale and i have no hope of redemption because i don’t see my need of same…

    a whole lot to ponder on that question… but as to “remaining” a Christian? that takes us into Eternal Security, doesn’t it? 😆

  18. Erunner says:

    So our son had his Honda Pilot recalled due to the passenger air bag. He picked it up yesterday and was handed an itemized list of repairs he needed totaling close to $3,000.00. Today as I was getting gas I told our mechanic and it turns out his Honda was also recalled and he got the same list. As he’s an expert mechanic he lit into them pretty good. The guy tried to tell him they were “suggested repairs.” He then told me he’s had a few customers come in telling him the same story. It disgusts me that a multi million dollar corp. would stoop to this type of garbage. So if you have a Honda recalled for the same reason you might get the same surprise as you pick up your car.

  19. Em says:

    Erunner, you’ve just hit the bullseye … what will it cost America to dig out of this corrupt mindset? … or will we?

  20. Erunner says:

    Em, it seems this is stuff that has been going on for quite some time now. I don’t know if we will ever change in this area as it appears to have such a powerful pull on people. Made me think how Christian leaders and organizations have been overcome by the love of the almighty dollar. Currently I have a pretty dim view of things and don’t see things changing until Jesus sets up His kingdom.

  21. Surfer51 says:

    My wife took her Pruis in for it’s routine maintenance at our local Toyota dealer here in Costa Mesa Ca.

    When she picked it up she was told by the service manager that her radiator was leaking fluid “all over the engine compartment.”

    She was also told that they were going to have to remove the engine from the car to repair it.

    When she came home she was very upset because it was going to cost a lot of money


    I opened the hood and saw no evidence of such repairs needed.

    She did not believe me so I taped a sheet of clean white typing paper to the unbderside of the hood and drove on the freeway for quite a few miles.

    When i arrived back home I opened the hood and showed her the still clean typing paper.

    That was about 5 months ago, the Pruis has been fine with no leaking radiator.

    When I checked Yelp to see what other may have said about this dealership, sure enough they had tried to con some other women with various other non existent repairs that would be needed.

    Sad that dealerships have to resort to giving up integrity and ethics etc.

    My son had purchased a used truck from the same dealership.

    He was told that for a few hundred dollars more he could have a 5 year extended service warranty on the truck. Which he had purchased at their suggestion.

    When something went wrong with the truck a year later he brought it in under that warranty.

    He was told that the warranty had run out.

    When he told them he had purchased a five year warranty and it was only one year since he purchased it, he was told that he had purchased the original warranty which started when the truck was brand new for the original purchaser and that it had now run out.

    So my son had been led to believe he was buying a new 5 year warranty, when he was in reality only purchasing the original warranty which had started on the clock with the original owner and only had a few months left on it.

    He was conned into paying hundreds of dollars for a few months warranty while being led to believe that it was a full five years of protection that he was purchasing for himself.

    Technically it was a five year warranty but he was never told that it was the original warranty which only had a few months left.

    Is it any wonder that most people steer clear of dealerships when they want to purchase a vehicle.

    Buy through a credit union or a purchasing agent ,

    My suggestion:

  22. Em says:

    “So my son had been led to believe he was buying a new 5 year warranty, when he was in reality only purchasing the original warranty which had started on the clock with the original owner and only had a few months left on it.”
    someone can correct me on this, but i think that the original warranty transfers to the new owner at no extra cost… used to be fellow posting comments here that sold cars… Toyotas, i think…
    here’s what might be a useful hint: when buying a used vehicle and the salesman wants to sell you that 5 year warranty, tell him to reduce the price of the vehicle by a like amount and you’ll buy it as i’ve been given to understand that they make a bigger commission on that warranty than they do on the vehicle…

  23. Anne says:

    Surfer 51 – if it was the Toyota dealership on Harbor Blvd, they are notorious! My mom got ripped off royally by them without going into the details. After she died, I went back and really gave them a piece of my mind about how low it was for them to take advantage of a dying old woman the way they did ( she passed soon after). Didn’t seem to faze them at all, but I sure felt better. I kept my word to them that I would tell everyone what despicable business practices they had. Found out others had similar problems. While she was living she didn’t want me to intervene on the dirty dealing they did her, blaming herself for her naivity. But I could not rest until I let them know that I knew what sorry SOBs they had been to her.

  24. surfer51 says:


    Correct, the same dealer.

    Do a “Yelp” post on them about your mom.

    Can’t figure how they got the negative post removed.

  25. Anne says:

    S51 – It was nine years ago. And doubt the individuals involved are still there, don’t remember their names, etc. Sounds like the culture is still the same though, sadly. Had planned on filing complaint with headquarters at the time, but then caretaking and all the events following her passing became more pressing.

  26. This brings up an interesting topic – can a Christian use Yelp in a negative way? Can you publicly say something bad about your ‘neighbor’?

  27. Nonnie says:

    Speak the truth in love, MLD. 😀

  28. Anne says:

    Corporations and businesses are not “people” no matter what SCOTUS ruled in Citizens United. Unsafe and unethical practices should be revealed to protect (love) our neighbors from harm. Sadly, some businesses are now suing folks who post negative reviews. Reminds me of some pastors…..

  29. Surfer51 says:

    “This brings up an interesting topic – can a Christian use Yelp in a negative way? Can you publicly say something bad about your ‘neighbor’?”
    Asked MLD


    “What is truth,” Jesus was once asked.

    Truth is that which delineates that which is.

    Yelp is not “used in a negative way” or a “positive way” per se.

    It is simply a vehicle for sharing one’s experience with others in their interaction.

    It is a five star rating system designed to help the public to understand what can be expected when dealing with a particular business.

    Factual truth is the ideal and expectation of Yelp reviews.

    In essence Jesus gave a “Yelp” review a time or two…

    “Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; herefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.…”
    Matthew Twenty Three Verse Two

    “You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. “So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.…”
    Matthew Twenty Three Verse Twenty Seven

    This is just two examples of Jesus leaving a negative review of His neighbors. There are more.

    Know your Bible!

  30. Surfer51,
    I was just asking the question to stimulate conversation, but you really need to look into this.
    “It is a five star rating system designed to help the public to understand what can be expected when dealing with a particular business.”

    Far from it – You need to look into the business model of Yelp and Angie’s List – they are extortioners. I will make your research simple – see if paying clients and non paying companies are treated differently – in other words can you buy your way out of negative comments?

  31. Charles says:

    When it comes to car dealers, especially service centers it is best to take a stick with you to take out the snakes in the grass.

    In other words, let a knowledgeable man who knows his way around an engine go with you or do the work himself.

    Service departments, drool over women and men under 25 who bring their car in for servicing.
    That being said, I think that is is a good thing that there are places like Yelp who call out these places of business and show them for what they really are.
    Use the hell out of it, get honest frank reviews. If you are doing something wrong, people who frequent there will call you out.
    Should of came into existence a long time ago, would of saved people a lot of frustration and money avoiding these places who do one wrong.

  32. Em says:

    FWIW, i’d say ‘yelp’ only after asking to speak to the manager and giving the establishment a chance – one chance

  33. I was at the gym (just bragging 🙂 ) and I was thinking more of what Surfer51 said in his #30 in his defense of Yelp with his Jesus quotes and his challenge to me to Know my Bible.

    Surfer51 – is it your contention that we should address people the way Jesus addressed people? I mean with that cutting tongue he used?

    Does anyone here advocate publicly addressing people as Jesus did?

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