Michael said on the other thread – “We are in desperate need of revisiting the Reformation.”
When Michael and I agree, we do it full force and this is one of those times. Attached is a 28 min video conversation between Steve Brown and Rod Rosenbladt
MLD yesterday
“1.) I don’t think we accept Christ – Christ accepts us.
2.) not the same person at all. We are now saved (fill in your own definition) – we are now seated in the heavenlies (in heaven with Jesus) and whole bunch of other things.”
point one may be semantics – we received a gift from God, He may have grabbed our hands and curled our finger around it, but we did receive it
point two comes back to the new birth… that gift was received in an earthen vessel (the ashes to ashes and dust to dust thing), the old man, his days are numbered, still sins, it is our spirit (whether resuscitated or new born) that has a place in the heavenlies and keeps our souls from the second death
don’t know if i want to visit the Reformation again, we’ve had 500 years to get to where we are from the first one
Showing up. 🙂
Between Trey and my moms surgery I haven’t had time to even think about going somewhere by myself, for myself.
I found a tiny, conservative Anglican church and will attend and begin the catechesis process tomorrow.
I need to be part of something ancient and historic and I simply do not want to be identified with American evangelicalism anymore.
It makes no sense to many…but it’s way past time for me.
Michael – I hope you can find a conservative Anglican Church in your area – they are hard to find. I offer up Eric Dudley of St. Peter’s Anglican Church in Tallahassee, Florida. Probably too far to drive by the internet is great.
Here he explains the Anglican liturgy – the Nuts & Bolts as he calls it. Well worth your time.
Michael, what you are doing is the right thing… years ago we decided that our children had to have more than flannel board Christianity and vacations called mission trips (both have some value as intended, but…) – there was a cost, but their faith has held over the years… hope you get some good nourishing meat and we’ll get the leftovers here on PhxP.
I became a christian because of a flannel board story in VBS. Can still “see” the pictures of the story that explained it to a 10 year old kid well enough that I “got it” and knew it was true.
I consider Tullian Tchividjian the 4th Lutheran on this panel as I am convinced that he is a Lutheran whose day job is that of a Presbyterian pastor. 😉
Michael
You are in my prayers. Hope your move into the Anglican Church is a smooth one. Recently I moved back to my home town to be closer to my aging mother.Been giving the Lutheran Church a try. It’s been …well different.
#12 flannel boards were wonderful, and what a beautiful story you tell – the enlightenment of a child to salvation … but children grow and the world presses in and they need nourishment (spiritual) to grow strong…
Thank you…we have a lot of people here who are either moving into Lutheranism or have already arrived.
MLD has been quite the evangelist for the LCMS. 🙂
My biggest theological influences outside of Calvin have all been Anglicans and I already have a comfort level there.
I desperately want a connection to a tradition that is older than I am.
I want to worship in concert with those who have gone before, as they worshipped.
I am utterly Protestant in my soteriology, so Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism don’t fit.
That brought me to the Lutheran , Reformed, and Anglican traditions.
I’m a convinced Calvinist so that brought me to the Anglicans and Reformed.
The Reformed confessions are wonderful, but leave little room for thinking or dissent.
The 39 Articles are more broad and open to exploration and theological revisions.
I love affirming what Calvin, Bucer, Cranmer, Wright, Packer, and Stott have all affirmed before me.
I love the Book of Common Prayer…almost passionately.
My father in the faith is J.I. Packer and that is icing on the cake.
That’s the short version…I have to take Trey to a pow-wow. 🙂
Michael,
I’m so glad you are moving forward, in the direction the Lord intends for you. May the Lord bring you great healing as you commune with Him and His people in the Anglican tradition.
I also pray for a deep peace, a peace from which you will be able to write that expose book without any bitterness or haunting memories. Instead, writing out of love, may you offer fair warning to His flock, exhorting them to follow Him instead of mere men.
I was once “at peace” where I was…until I realized I was being “trained” to thin/be superior than everyone else, and of course my arrogance overflowed into my relationships – my wife was not the least receiver of my “grace.” Dam near destroyed my marriage with my “all you need is…” theology.
Chuck didn’t teach _____, so if you don’t need it, you’re “in the flesh.”
If you don’t like it, you’re “bitter.”
If you still don’t “walk in the Spirit,” we drop you into our own lake of fire, made for the Calvinists and Lonnie Frisbee admirers.
Then, I accidentally (seriously) started learning Systematic Theology and had to anethema myself because I found I was an idiot to believe CCs didn’t create sh*t. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad they reached-out to the hippies because I was at the very tail end of that.
But I found myself having to respect and even like those whom (or their theological offsring) we CCs luuuuv to spit on regularly on KWAVE. Those poor unfortunates were too simple, they never quoted Chuck and ripped off his jokes for their “sermons.”
So, now I’m pretty much screwed. I believe mostly the result of evil denoms, but have a hard time fitting in within any of them, though I try.
If you’re wondering, history and logic has pretty much ruined my ability to fit within any CC where one king gets to dictate to EVERYONE, what they are to do for the Lord, when/where/how/why they do it, because it’s not part of “their vision.” I guess poor Jesus’ vision wasn’t enough, oh well.
Maybe my problem is really I never became a CC king myself.
Maybe had I just had my self-centered “vision” (and bank account) cemented, my heart would’ve just been seared too much to feel conviction anymore. I don’t know.
Seriously, the Bible just keeps making me grieved with what’s going on, don’t know what to do.
You have my vote Michael. You have always been a kind and good man to all here at your blog, and I think that’s way more important than ‘talking a good game’.
speaking of stomach knots – i am so… irritated – this morning i watched the early TV news and once again it was “look at the Duggars! Hypocrites! – calling the, then boy, a pedophile and castigating the parents for the way they handled the situation, etc.” no i’m not irritated i am real angry … i vented yesterday on another thread, but i’ve got to vent again…
i’ve come away from considering the Josh Duggar scandal with admiration for that family (the mom and dad aren’t my cup of tea, but that falls in the same category as cats – they both have a right to be what they are)… were they wrong to keep an experimenting, very young teenager’s problem in the family? i say no, they weren’t wrong to do so – no i say NO with capital letters – would you make public your child’s transgression? probably not unless he broke the neighbor’s window and needed to pay for it…. and for the record the recidivism rate on these young boys who get proper help is less than 10% – the guy should not be labeled for the rest of his life as a “sex offender.” to call the family hypocrites is an outrage!!! well, they might be for other reasons, but i don’t know that
thanks to Michael for allowing random thoughts – even my momentarily violent ones
There are many of us who feel the same way you do… It is so difficult to describe in words the detoxification process of leaving cc after your eyes are opened to the cult mentally. For some it takes years of inner healing and realignment to trust anyone or anything “religious” again…
Keep pressing on brother to find the true way IN HIM, that has not and never will change!
to all who are bearing the wounds of poor teaching, jockeying for prominence and manipulation from church organizations… that makes me madder’n anything else…
to accept Christ and then be denied the enjoyment of Him? there is a price to be paid – God of grace and mercy, praying for the perps – for confession and repentance … Hebrews 10:30-35
You wrote to SJ that “the home church stays the same.”
I wonder how well that will work. For example, the Anglicans believe that the wine and bread become the Body and Blood of Christ. You might agree with them, but I think they believe the transformation can only be accomplished by an ordained priest who has apostolic succession? I wonder if after you accept this doctrine and begin receiving Holy Communion with the Anglicans, you may find that you will have a change of opinion about serving communion at your home church.
The typical non-liturgical Protestant church, anyone can pass out the bread and wine, there’s nothing sacramental going on, even if some groups have a more elevated opinion about “the presence.” I am interested to see how you reconcile this down the road.
The same would be true for other sacramental services you might perform as pastor, such as baptisms and weddings. You will be learning and I imagine accepting the Anglican view of the sacraments. If you really take them to heart, it’s hard to imagine that you will want to continue performing the evangelical versions of them at your home church.
Isn’t there a moment in the Anglican liturgy where the celebrant says a prayer and the transformation from bread and wine to Body and Blood takes place?
Hmm…. I thought this was an Anglican doctrine.
Well, if what you say is true, and I don’t doubt you, then carry on.
Because of the various theological movements which have influenced Anglicanism throughout history, there is no one sacramental theory accepted by all Anglicans.
I mistakenly thought that all the great liturgies were basically the same. For example, when I attended a LCMS, RCC and Anglican churches I could recognize all the sections of their liturgies. They were not identical to an EO liturgy but the broad outline was the same: Psalms, Epistle reading, Gospel reading, prayers before, during and after Communion, Dismissal hymn, a short homily thrown in there somewhere, etc.
I don’t think the Duggar parents are any more hypocritical than anyone else, but they do seem very ignorant. The “safeguards” they implemented in their home after they found out what Josh was doing didn’t stop him from doing it again, and they seem to be operating under the belief that his behavior is unique to boys when it isn’t. When I was growing up there was a teen girl in my neighborhood we were all warned about because she was caught feeling younger kids up. They should have gotten Josh hooked up with a real therapist who is educated in dealing with these things. If the people he molested needed therapy they should have hooked them up with counselors also. If doing that meant the counselors would have to inform the police then so be it. The reality is that even if Josh’s actions had been properly reported to the police and not some creepy family friend/child porn consumer who just happened to be a police officer he would have faced, at maximum, a slap on the wrist. It probably would have been way better for him if it had come out when he was 14 instead of 27 because then the entire country wouldn’t be looking at an image of a grown man and picturing him molesting 5 year olds. They just seem very ignorant and naive in how they’ve responded to this situation both 12 years ago when it first happened and now when it has all come out.
In the homeschooling subculture, especially in those days, there was a great deal of paranoia about social services who in some cases were hostile to homeschooling families, especially those who were radical homeschoolers like the Duggars. If they belonged to HSLDA (Home School Legal Defense Association) like most of us did, they were continually warned to have as little to do with the police or social services as possible because we were all told they would come and take our kids away from us at the drop of a hat. (And sometimes, they did.) It was a culture of paranoia. So since this is the pond they were swimming in, and throw in the Gothardite craziness, and the very LAST thing a family like the Duggars would do would be to have any involvement with the government at all, period. They probably feared ALL their children would be taken away and put in foster care, and frankly, this could have very well happened, depending on the attitude of the social services people. They probably (and I think properly) feared that the harm that would come to all their kids if placed in foster care outweighed the harm that would come from working with Josh themselves. I believe they made the right choice because worse things than molestation often takes place in foster care. I suspect that is what they were thinking at the time.
Xenia…I appreciate your perspective on the Duggar controversy. You’re absolutely right about the counseling we received as homeschoolers, and there were plenty of cases where I live that substantiated the “avoid social services” perspective. I do, however, believe good counseling was in order, and perhaps another childless home for the offender.
My husband once had coffee with one of the psychologists who was contracted to counsel the RCC pedophile priests. A liberal in philosophy, he came out of that 10 year experience believing there was no way to reform them.
We see Josh Duggar as a unreformable sex deviant; the Duggars saw him as their own dear son. They were simply not willing to throw him to the lions.
If they could have taken him to a good counselor where there was no danger of the whole family being busted to smithereens, I suspect they would have done so.
well, reading the comments here on the Duggars i have to conclude that either no one sat through the 2 hours of interview with the family or you are calling them liars… BTW, the Duggars did send their son away for six months and the victims, the whole family too, received secular professional counseling (not talking “damage control” or spin) – the police officer that went to jail was a member of their church and, like a lot of church goers, he wasn’t what he pretended – or perhaps wanted to be. Is this behavior common in pubescent boys? Probably not, but, to repeat, the recidivism rate is less than 10% and that fact is documentable from sources outside of Christianity… not going to go to the trouble to run it down, why would i? way too much knee jerk media believing repeating going on here – IMHO
thankfully, i’m grown up enough that i’m not afraid of FOX news – or CNN – and i’m not a Duggar fan, BTW
I saw the Duggar daughters being interviewed the other night. They said they felt more exploited and abused by what the tabloid media did in exposing the story than anything that happened to them years ago.
Leaking information from “sealed” juvenile or adult documents is a disgrace and probably illegal.
However, it happens all the time these days it seems. They’ll probably get an out of court financial settlement and get a renewed t.v. contract and be more popular than ever.
My disclaimer is that I’ve never even seen their program, don’t have any interests in ever watching a program like that, and that I didn’t even know who they were until this hit the news.
Busy day at church today – all that confession will wear you out. 😉
Went to the divine service – ushered and helped with communion
Taught my adult Bible study from Matt 10 … only got about 10 verses
Gave a 15 min presentation at our new members class
2 hour 4th quarter (also our annual) congregational meeting
Reviewed and accepted all ministry reports
The congregation (we had about 150 at the meeting) voted and approved 5 action items
A new school teacher
Making our interim pre school director permanent
Approved a new congregational liaison person as the old one rotated out
Approved the contract addendum wording for our refinance loan
And the BIG one – our new budget for 2015 / 2016
“All baptized and confirmed persons who believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament, are admitted to Holy Communion in their own churches, and are spiritually prepared to receive the Sacred Body and Blood, are welcome to receive Communion at Mass.”
You make a good point, Xenia. I hadn’t thought of that aspect. If they just came out and said that it would make their actions so much more understandable.
It’s all yours today…
Michael said on the other thread – “We are in desperate need of revisiting the Reformation.”
When Michael and I agree, we do it full force and this is one of those times. Attached is a 28 min video conversation between Steve Brown and Rod Rosenbladt
http://liberate.org/2015/05/21/key-life-pastors-chat-on-absolution-and-the-forgiveness-of-sins/
Make your own application 😉
MLD yesterday
“1.) I don’t think we accept Christ – Christ accepts us.
2.) not the same person at all. We are now saved (fill in your own definition) – we are now seated in the heavenlies (in heaven with Jesus) and whole bunch of other things.”
point one may be semantics – we received a gift from God, He may have grabbed our hands and curled our finger around it, but we did receive it
point two comes back to the new birth… that gift was received in an earthen vessel (the ashes to ashes and dust to dust thing), the old man, his days are numbered, still sins, it is our spirit (whether resuscitated or new born) that has a place in the heavenlies and keeps our souls from the second death
don’t know if i want to visit the Reformation again, we’ve had 500 years to get to where we are from the first one
MLD,
I hold you responsible for RR making me cry.
That video is gold on so many levels and I needed to see it this morning.
I start my journey out of American evangelicalism tomorrow and begin the process of becoming an Anglican.
Should be interesting…
what is your first step on the journey, Michael?
Showing up. 🙂
Between Trey and my moms surgery I haven’t had time to even think about going somewhere by myself, for myself.
I found a tiny, conservative Anglican church and will attend and begin the catechesis process tomorrow.
I need to be part of something ancient and historic and I simply do not want to be identified with American evangelicalism anymore.
It makes no sense to many…but it’s way past time for me.
Michael – I hope you can find a conservative Anglican Church in your area – they are hard to find. I offer up Eric Dudley of St. Peter’s Anglican Church in Tallahassee, Florida. Probably too far to drive by the internet is great.
Here he explains the Anglican liturgy – the Nuts & Bolts as he calls it. Well worth your time.
http://www.stpeterstallahassee.org/nutsandbolts/
A note – these guys broke off from the Archbishop of Canterbury and aligned themselves with a conservative Archbishop in Africa.
Well Michael,
Grace and Peace to you
MLD,
I spent a week with that African archbishop in Geneva…he is a wonderful man of God.
I even stopped cussing when I was around him… 🙂
Thanks BD…to you as well.
Michael, what you are doing is the right thing… years ago we decided that our children had to have more than flannel board Christianity and vacations called mission trips (both have some value as intended, but…) – there was a cost, but their faith has held over the years… hope you get some good nourishing meat and we’ll get the leftovers here on PhxP.
I became a christian because of a flannel board story in VBS. Can still “see” the pictures of the story that explained it to a 10 year old kid well enough that I “got it” and knew it was true.
Michael, that is wonderful, wonderful news.
Xenia,
Thank you, my friend.
It’s long overdue, but I have an overwhelming feeling that it’s time now.
OK, I have already pleaded guilty on the other thread to being a Graceaholic, but here is what four Lutherans sound like when they get together.
http://liberate.org/2015/02/25/liberate-2015-preaching-the-gospel-to-christians-radio-broadcast/
I consider Tullian Tchividjian the 4th Lutheran on this panel as I am convinced that he is a Lutheran whose day job is that of a Presbyterian pastor. 😉
Anglican? Awesome!
Michael
You are in my prayers. Hope your move into the Anglican Church is a smooth one. Recently I moved back to my home town to be closer to my aging mother.Been giving the Lutheran Church a try. It’s been …well different.
#12 flannel boards were wonderful, and what a beautiful story you tell – the enlightenment of a child to salvation … but children grow and the world presses in and they need nourishment (spiritual) to grow strong…
Exciting, Michael. 🙂
#15 – uh oh, maybe there will be a Lutheran awakening 🙂
Tullian is very dynamic and dramatic and right now he’s tracking great – i pray for him
Dude,
Thank you…we have a lot of people here who are either moving into Lutheranism or have already arrived.
MLD has been quite the evangelist for the LCMS. 🙂
My biggest theological influences outside of Calvin have all been Anglicans and I already have a comfort level there.
Praying you find a new home as well…
Dude,
You need this book – the revised edition
http://www.amazon.com/Spirituality-Cross-Revised-Edition-Edward/dp/0758613032/ref=pd_sim_14_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0JH2F0R7KJ2VHCJDX4SK
Michael,
What led to the choice of Anglicanism …
over
Orthodoxy
over
Presbyterian
over
Lutheranism…wait I know that one
And of course my crew is as old as … Pentecost at least…
😉
Near Dread
BD,
I desperately want a connection to a tradition that is older than I am.
I want to worship in concert with those who have gone before, as they worshipped.
I am utterly Protestant in my soteriology, so Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism don’t fit.
That brought me to the Lutheran , Reformed, and Anglican traditions.
I’m a convinced Calvinist so that brought me to the Anglicans and Reformed.
The Reformed confessions are wonderful, but leave little room for thinking or dissent.
The 39 Articles are more broad and open to exploration and theological revisions.
I love affirming what Calvin, Bucer, Cranmer, Wright, Packer, and Stott have all affirmed before me.
I love the Book of Common Prayer…almost passionately.
My father in the faith is J.I. Packer and that is icing on the cake.
That’s the short version…I have to take Trey to a pow-wow. 🙂
Michael
Thanks … love the clarity and was sure you were carrying that with you.
Besides all the theological reasons, a proper Anglican church is beautiful. There’s a lot to be said for beauty.
Conservative Anglicanism would be my
After Orthodoxy, conservative Anglicanism would be my first choice too.
Michael,
I’m so glad you are moving forward, in the direction the Lord intends for you. May the Lord bring you great healing as you commune with Him and His people in the Anglican tradition.
I also pray for a deep peace, a peace from which you will be able to write that expose book without any bitterness or haunting memories. Instead, writing out of love, may you offer fair warning to His flock, exhorting them to follow Him instead of mere men.
MLD
Read the Book of Concord last winter. Like the preaching and the worship mostly.I’m also looking at a Evangelical Free Church in the area also.
can’t argue with following Packer’s route… 🙂 seems a good, safe fork in the road to to go down now
Happy today family ((((((hugs))))))
I always get here after everyone leaves 🙁
I was once “at peace” where I was…until I realized I was being “trained” to thin/be superior than everyone else, and of course my arrogance overflowed into my relationships – my wife was not the least receiver of my “grace.” Dam near destroyed my marriage with my “all you need is…” theology.
Chuck didn’t teach _____, so if you don’t need it, you’re “in the flesh.”
If you don’t like it, you’re “bitter.”
If you still don’t “walk in the Spirit,” we drop you into our own lake of fire, made for the Calvinists and Lonnie Frisbee admirers.
Then, I accidentally (seriously) started learning Systematic Theology and had to anethema myself because I found I was an idiot to believe CCs didn’t create sh*t. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad they reached-out to the hippies because I was at the very tail end of that.
But I found myself having to respect and even like those whom (or their theological offsring) we CCs luuuuv to spit on regularly on KWAVE. Those poor unfortunates were too simple, they never quoted Chuck and ripped off his jokes for their “sermons.”
So, now I’m pretty much screwed. I believe mostly the result of evil denoms, but have a hard time fitting in within any of them, though I try.
If you’re wondering, history and logic has pretty much ruined my ability to fit within any CC where one king gets to dictate to EVERYONE, what they are to do for the Lord, when/where/how/why they do it, because it’s not part of “their vision.” I guess poor Jesus’ vision wasn’t enough, oh well.
Maybe my problem is really I never became a CC king myself.
Maybe had I just had my self-centered “vision” (and bank account) cemented, my heart would’ve just been seared too much to feel conviction anymore. I don’t know.
Seriously, the Bible just keeps making me grieved with what’s going on, don’t know what to do.
That’s great news Michael. I think that is the right path for you.
Praying for you big brother for your new adventure and new church setting.
As always praying for your health
When I moved house last year I joined a local evangelical Anglican church. It’s been good. I guess evangelical has a different meaning in Australia 🙂
came back for a Dusty hug – thank you and here’s one bacatcha
i think i’ll try to be more of a lurker here as this new chapter unfolds – we’ll see – will pray
post script, Tullian T. is on for a half hour on (ahem) TBN on Sunday mornings – 9 a.m. in Seattle
Hi, Dusty!
Em, nothing much will change here…post as you will.
Back to sermon prep…
Michael, do you take your home church down the same road?
Peace be unto you, Michael. I’ll look forward to hearing about this in future posts.
Hi, Dusty!! Hugs!!!
Thank you, MLD for that link to The Pastors’ chat on forgiveness. That was wonderful.
What is it with christian divorcee’s?
Before the ink is even dry on the divorce papers, I see some are already proudly displaying their selfies with their new “perfect” guy or gal.
Don’t know why, it just puts a knot in my stomach.
Michael @ # 24,
You have my vote Michael. You have always been a kind and good man to all here at your blog, and I think that’s way more important than ‘talking a good game’.
Thanks, Muff, Nonnie…
SJ. the home church stays the same.
This is purely for my growth and stability.
Scott, it should knot all our stomachs – we’re way too ‘nice’ – pleasing man rather than God?
speaking of stomach knots – i am so… irritated – this morning i watched the early TV news and once again it was “look at the Duggars! Hypocrites! – calling the, then boy, a pedophile and castigating the parents for the way they handled the situation, etc.” no i’m not irritated i am real angry … i vented yesterday on another thread, but i’ve got to vent again…
i’ve come away from considering the Josh Duggar scandal with admiration for that family (the mom and dad aren’t my cup of tea, but that falls in the same category as cats – they both have a right to be what they are)… were they wrong to keep an experimenting, very young teenager’s problem in the family? i say no, they weren’t wrong to do so – no i say NO with capital letters – would you make public your child’s transgression? probably not unless he broke the neighbor’s window and needed to pay for it…. and for the record the recidivism rate on these young boys who get proper help is less than 10% – the guy should not be labeled for the rest of his life as a “sex offender.” to call the family hypocrites is an outrage!!! well, they might be for other reasons, but i don’t know that
thanks to Michael for allowing random thoughts – even my momentarily violent ones
Dear uncc’d,
There are many of us who feel the same way you do… It is so difficult to describe in words the detoxification process of leaving cc after your eyes are opened to the cult mentally. For some it takes years of inner healing and realignment to trust anyone or anything “religious” again…
Keep pressing on brother to find the true way IN HIM, that has not and never will change!
to all who are bearing the wounds of poor teaching, jockeying for prominence and manipulation from church organizations… that makes me madder’n anything else…
to accept Christ and then be denied the enjoyment of Him? there is a price to be paid – God of grace and mercy, praying for the perps – for confession and repentance … Hebrews 10:30-35
Michael, I was thinking about you all morning.
You wrote to SJ that “the home church stays the same.”
I wonder how well that will work. For example, the Anglicans believe that the wine and bread become the Body and Blood of Christ. You might agree with them, but I think they believe the transformation can only be accomplished by an ordained priest who has apostolic succession? I wonder if after you accept this doctrine and begin receiving Holy Communion with the Anglicans, you may find that you will have a change of opinion about serving communion at your home church.
The typical non-liturgical Protestant church, anyone can pass out the bread and wine, there’s nothing sacramental going on, even if some groups have a more elevated opinion about “the presence.” I am interested to see how you reconcile this down the road.
The same would be true for other sacramental services you might perform as pastor, such as baptisms and weddings. You will be learning and I imagine accepting the Anglican view of the sacraments. If you really take them to heart, it’s hard to imagine that you will want to continue performing the evangelical versions of them at your home church.
The best solution is to work towards an Anglican ordination for yourself. 🙂
Xenia,
The main Anglican view of communion is the Reformed view…which I already practice.
They are some who have the doctrine you speak.
“Father Michael”
🙂
Xenia,
LOL! 🙂
Isn’t there a moment in the Anglican liturgy where the celebrant says a prayer and the transformation from bread and wine to Body and Blood takes place?
Hmm…. I thought this was an Anglican doctrine.
Well, if what you say is true, and I don’t doubt you, then carry on.
🙂
From that Oracle, Wikipedia:
Because of the various theological movements which have influenced Anglicanism throughout history, there is no one sacramental theory accepted by all Anglicans.
Well, there ya go.
I mistakenly thought that all the great liturgies were basically the same. For example, when I attended a LCMS, RCC and Anglican churches I could recognize all the sections of their liturgies. They were not identical to an EO liturgy but the broad outline was the same: Psalms, Epistle reading, Gospel reading, prayers before, during and after Communion, Dismissal hymn, a short homily thrown in there somewhere, etc.
I don’t think the Duggar parents are any more hypocritical than anyone else, but they do seem very ignorant. The “safeguards” they implemented in their home after they found out what Josh was doing didn’t stop him from doing it again, and they seem to be operating under the belief that his behavior is unique to boys when it isn’t. When I was growing up there was a teen girl in my neighborhood we were all warned about because she was caught feeling younger kids up. They should have gotten Josh hooked up with a real therapist who is educated in dealing with these things. If the people he molested needed therapy they should have hooked them up with counselors also. If doing that meant the counselors would have to inform the police then so be it. The reality is that even if Josh’s actions had been properly reported to the police and not some creepy family friend/child porn consumer who just happened to be a police officer he would have faced, at maximum, a slap on the wrist. It probably would have been way better for him if it had come out when he was 14 instead of 27 because then the entire country wouldn’t be looking at an image of a grown man and picturing him molesting 5 year olds. They just seem very ignorant and naive in how they’ve responded to this situation both 12 years ago when it first happened and now when it has all come out.
In the homeschooling subculture, especially in those days, there was a great deal of paranoia about social services who in some cases were hostile to homeschooling families, especially those who were radical homeschoolers like the Duggars. If they belonged to HSLDA (Home School Legal Defense Association) like most of us did, they were continually warned to have as little to do with the police or social services as possible because we were all told they would come and take our kids away from us at the drop of a hat. (And sometimes, they did.) It was a culture of paranoia. So since this is the pond they were swimming in, and throw in the Gothardite craziness, and the very LAST thing a family like the Duggars would do would be to have any involvement with the government at all, period. They probably feared ALL their children would be taken away and put in foster care, and frankly, this could have very well happened, depending on the attitude of the social services people. They probably (and I think properly) feared that the harm that would come to all their kids if placed in foster care outweighed the harm that would come from working with Josh themselves. I believe they made the right choice because worse things than molestation often takes place in foster care. I suspect that is what they were thinking at the time.
Xenia…I appreciate your perspective on the Duggar controversy. You’re absolutely right about the counseling we received as homeschoolers, and there were plenty of cases where I live that substantiated the “avoid social services” perspective. I do, however, believe good counseling was in order, and perhaps another childless home for the offender.
My husband once had coffee with one of the psychologists who was contracted to counsel the RCC pedophile priests. A liberal in philosophy, he came out of that 10 year experience believing there was no way to reform them.
We see Josh Duggar as a unreformable sex deviant; the Duggars saw him as their own dear son. They were simply not willing to throw him to the lions.
If they could have taken him to a good counselor where there was no danger of the whole family being busted to smithereens, I suspect they would have done so.
I wonder if the Duggars contacted HSLDA and were advised not to get the authorities involved.
well, reading the comments here on the Duggars i have to conclude that either no one sat through the 2 hours of interview with the family or you are calling them liars… BTW, the Duggars did send their son away for six months and the victims, the whole family too, received secular professional counseling (not talking “damage control” or spin) – the police officer that went to jail was a member of their church and, like a lot of church goers, he wasn’t what he pretended – or perhaps wanted to be. Is this behavior common in pubescent boys? Probably not, but, to repeat, the recidivism rate is less than 10% and that fact is documentable from sources outside of Christianity… not going to go to the trouble to run it down, why would i? way too much knee jerk media believing repeating going on here – IMHO
thankfully, i’m grown up enough that i’m not afraid of FOX news – or CNN – and i’m not a Duggar fan, BTW
I saw the Duggar daughters being interviewed the other night. They said they felt more exploited and abused by what the tabloid media did in exposing the story than anything that happened to them years ago.
Leaking information from “sealed” juvenile or adult documents is a disgrace and probably illegal.
However, it happens all the time these days it seems. They’ll probably get an out of court financial settlement and get a renewed t.v. contract and be more popular than ever.
My disclaimer is that I’ve never even seen their program, don’t have any interests in ever watching a program like that, and that I didn’t even know who they were until this hit the news.
Busy day at church today – all that confession will wear you out. 😉
Went to the divine service – ushered and helped with communion
Taught my adult Bible study from Matt 10 … only got about 10 verses
Gave a 15 min presentation at our new members class
2 hour 4th quarter (also our annual) congregational meeting
Reviewed and accepted all ministry reports
The congregation (we had about 150 at the meeting) voted and approved 5 action items
A new school teacher
Making our interim pre school director permanent
Approved a new congregational liaison person as the old one rotated out
Approved the contract addendum wording for our refinance loan
And the BIG one – our new budget for 2015 / 2016
All unanimous votes – a good day indeed.
My local Anglican church says this:
“All baptized and confirmed persons who believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament, are admitted to Holy Communion in their own churches, and are spiritually prepared to receive the Sacred Body and Blood, are welcome to receive Communion at Mass.”
https://sites.google.com/site/saintpaulsmelbourne/
Mark me down as a Roman Catholic for a day.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/denver-priest-pulls-out-the-big-guns-on-planned-parenthood-says-mass-on-the?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LifesitenewscomLatestHeadlines+%28LifeSiteNews.com+Latest+Headlines%29
You make a good point, Xenia. I hadn’t thought of that aspect. If they just came out and said that it would make their actions so much more understandable.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/06/10/an-apology-from-matt-chandlerelders-of-the-village-church-and-a-statement-of-forgiveness-from-karen-hinkley/
I am encouraged by this! Finally, a proper apology to Karen!
@ Nonnie’s #70:
NOW the pigs have flown. Thank God.
After further review…
The guys closest too it were furthest from seeing it but …they did.