Are you flying to the moon on Monday, BD? If so, bring back some of those blood-red rocks as souvenirs. You’ll make a mint selling them to the right crowd.
If you can’t make it to the moon, then any red rocks will probably work. Package them as BD’s Blood Moon Fragments and put them in small glass capsules on gold chains so folks can hang them around their neck for God’s blessing and to ward off vampires and werewolves. Let me know if you need help with marketing.
pray for Saeed – yes – i heard that Iran is considering bringing new charges against him, so prayers in this case are entering into a serious spiritual war, i think – pray for a serious testimony to the power of the God who is God and worthy to be
Just as a conversation starter, and I know this will probably get some negative feedback but prayer and especially “prayer vigils” are really a mystery – especially in light of what seems to be a “feel good” but non biblical movie – War Room.
If we look at Saeed’s situation (and this is only as example and not to him in particular) are we to assume that God is holding him hostage in an Iranian jail until enough people pray for his release?
When you tell someone to join you in the prayer vigil, what are you telling them to expect?
Surfer, that seems to be my point. Since we must be disobeying that command, Saeed must remain a prisoner.
So is your expectation that when the prayer vigil hits a certain number, the prison gates will open? That seems to be the theology of the movie War Room.
I am telling them to expect exactly what the disciples expected when they prayed for Peter’s release and he showed up ruining the meeting with his deliverance.
BD @8, I like your answer. We pray because we are told to, including intercession for others. And sometimes we are surprised by God’s very direct and miraculous answers. Even when those do not occur, we still pray. We still tell Him our concerns and our desire for change to the better, whether it be healing or a release from an Iranian prison.
MLD, I can only guess War Room is one of those films that skips over the existence of 2 Corinthians 12:8-10. Over at The New Yorker Richard Brody’s complaint after having watched War Room is that the beauty of faith in practice would be more compelling if it seemed like there was real sacrifice rather than inconvenience in the story arc of the film. Not that I agree with Brody half the time (there’s no way he’s going to convince me Bayformers 4 was more fun than Mad Max Fury Road) but he’s sounded off on film War Room because, you know, that’s his thing.
Well part of my question may have been missed. Are we gathering in prayer vigil groups because we don’t think enough Christians have been praying for Saeed? If we increase in numbers, we have increased our chances of getting the desired result.
I don’t think any of us are doing such calculations but it is a decent question.
We pray because we love God and care about this man and his suffering especially his family. Saeed has become a symbol as well as a person and via his pain we pray for others.
No one understands the mystery in prayer. We just know he invited us into that kind of relational life.
If MLD’s point is that one man’s prayers can be answered and as effective as tens of thousands….then I think that can be argued in either direction (yes or no). Elijah or the nation of Nineveh from the king down…
So how about the encouragement to a brother and his wife and children that a nation (army) of believers remembers him and though he may be forgotten by our political leaders he is not forgotten by the Body of Christ?
When someone tells me they are praying for me, I don’t say “That’s OK, I know a couple others who already are so no need to waste your time”
Well remember that I said this was not about Sawed and that I was just using him as an example at the time this movie was coming out.
When someone asks me to pray for them I do so out of comfort to them not out of any expectation that adding my voice would move God.
“I looked for someone among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found no one.
Ezekiel Twenty Two:Thirty
We trust in God when we have nothing else to trust to, when need drives us to him; but when we have other things to stay on, we are apt to depend too much on them.
God indeed does look for us to pray and to stand in the gap on behalf of others, essentially building up a wall of prayer.
God wants us to pray – just think about that fact and then? … pray – turn your mind toward heaven (no, i don’t know where heaven is) and call, Oh God… and something may come to mind that you ought to say to Him… “help?”
i honestly don’t think He cares as much what you say as the fact that you are talking to Him…. He is not a disinterested observer – a neutral third party
MLD says: When someone asks me to pray for them I do so out of comfort to them not out of any expectation that adding my voice would move God.
Yikes
I guess well have to rewrite the whole new testament. This position is yours MLD and you own it. But I find the very opposite to be true in my own Christian experience and what scripture admonishes us to do.
I guess if you don’t have any expectations to see the kingdom come and change a situation be it whatever the need. But only comfort a person who would hear my voice in a prayer, seems absurd to me.
I don’t understand why someone would find it comforting to be prayed for if there was no hope that maybe somehow that prayer would positively change the situation.
Having said that, I’m not convinced that prayer influences God at all. For any time that a person says, “I prayed about something and God answered my prayer and the situation changed,” I’m sure you can find 100 other situations in which people prayed fervently and desperately and things did not change. The times when things work out could probably be chalked up to sheer dumb chance.
I don’t know how you reconcile the idea that God is active in the world and responds to prayers with how crappy things can be. I’ve heard stories of people who claim, “I needed a car or a new vacuum or whatever and I prayed and God provided me with a new car or a new vacuum or whatever.” Meanwhile, there are people who are struggling with infertility who pray at least as fervently if not more so for a baby than the person prayed for a car and yet are still not able to conceive and have spent years and years waiting to be approved for adoption. The idea that God would actively go out of His way to provide someone with a car or a vacuum or an appliance of some sort while not granting the prayers of the people who want to have a baby seems horrible to me–particularly because desiring to have have children is one of the more Biblically-in-line desires that a person could have whereas wanting a car isn’t one thing or the other.
Josh (and I am assuming this is a different Josh), it’s funny you should have this reaction. So what you are saying is that when ask you to pray for them or with them, that the idea is “OK, let’s add a stronger voice to the prayer. God won’t listen to me alone, perhaps he will listen to you.”
God isn’t moved by the prayer of one, but 10,000 how could he say no.
And you are right, I do own my position – it is a comfort to the other person to know someone else has joined them.
And I might add, I pray for what has been promised to me in the Bible. This is why I can pray the Lord’s Prayer myself or corporately without being disgusted as some are here claiming it to be rote or insincere – it’s promise.
But my point is that in the movie, every prayer is satisfied – no prayer is left unattended by God. You pray with enough power and with enough people – the answer is then yours.
i’ve always loved the thought that if i was the only person that ever lived on this earth, Christ would still have died for my redemption… but the truth is that while God loves me dearly, it is NOT all about me or mine, is it? we’re in the midst of a big cosmic drama
yet isn’t it staggering just to think that our prayers are heard and saved by the holy and most high God?
isn’t it also logical that not all of them can be answered to our satisfaction? we have to trust and let God do the editing and the timing IMHO Rev 8:1-6 … but the whole chapter is encouraging, i think
and i do agree with MLD that the Lord’s prayer is a pretty reliable fall back prayer – about as perfect a prayer as we can pray …
i think most of us have prayed, honestly from our hearts, jewels that God is saving and treasuring and we don’t even know it … in the meantime we can keep on learning and growing and developing the mind of Christ, which makes this pilgrim walk a whole lot easier to complete… IMNSHO 🙂
I cannot remember once when my own prayers for self and others have not been answered.
I have found that God’s answer may not come when we would like them and they may not be answered in the way that we would like them to be. But in retrospect, in what form and in perfect timing, in the process of waiting and then coming to accept that which I could not control, I found myself being able to rest in the answers provided. I would never want anyone to pray with or for me to just make me feel better. Prayer is powerful and sometimes it needs to be done with some form of fasting. It was be sincere and done with a genuine heart believing that nothing is impossible for Him, nor is anything too difficult. And if the answer is no, wait, or yes, it is because He knows better and in His love and concern for us, He will do accordingly, not because of what we think, but because it is in His will to do and is for our best interest and according what He had ordained before time for His good purpose in our lives.
I would not be alive today had it not been for the faithful prayers of those who are prayer warriors and even though my own faith may have been on the line, theirs were not. Thank God for those who remembered me when all other felt justified to cover up that which brought me much harm—-to the point of my very life being threatened several times by one who called himself a god fearing man.
I am so grateful for those who are faithful in keeping me in their prayers. May the Lord bless them as they diligently seek His face on my behalf.
Uriahisaliveandwell – amen to your #28 – when God hears that in itself validates the prayer whether the petition is granted or kept by Him for later
“1 When the Lamb opened uthe seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,
4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel……”
This makes me think of the unjust judge and the widow as well as the man banging on his friend’s door once the was closed for the night. Two examples of how we may need persistence in prayer.
I wouldn’t think it is too much of a stretch to extrapolate that adding to the clamor (more people praying) wouldn’t have an effect.
I also think of the story in Daniel where the archangel had to struggle with the prince of Persia (well, whom might that be but Iran ?; doubt he (prince) is anymore interested in pleasing God than he was back then, but probably just as powerful – also the seat of Satan is nearby in Pergamum), so Daniel had to keep fasting during the whole fight. This would support Paul’s contention that we war not against flesh and blood and our weapons are not carnal.
Probably better to simply pray and not question what God chooses to keep hidden. That is where our faith is necessary as we don’t know exactly what may be brought about or needs to be fought in order to free the Pastor, but we do know the prescribed method for battle (prayer).
Wow, I don’t know if anyone here has listened to Jack Hibbs from a CC somewhere – but he could be the poster boy for The Cross is God’s Plan B theology (or called dispensationalism in some circles 😉 )
I am listening to him discuss “replacement theology” and talking as if that’s what we call ourselves. But then he says, and I have been saying this for years that dispensationalist refuse to interpret the OT by the NT – when he or his guest makes the point that the OT is a Jewish book and must be read through Jewish eyes and not as we (amils) do read the OT through the lens of the NT.
OK, I am going back in to see if I can stomach the rest.
OK, not too bad – they went all the way to the last 4min before the comparison to Joseph Goebbels was used. I’ve seen it thrown in the first 4 min at times, so these guys used restraint.
It’s all yours today…
Will I miss my flight Monday because of the Blood Moon?
Are you flying to the moon on Monday, BD? If so, bring back some of those blood-red rocks as souvenirs. You’ll make a mint selling them to the right crowd.
If you can’t make it to the moon, then any red rocks will probably work. Package them as BD’s Blood Moon Fragments and put them in small glass capsules on gold chains so folks can hang them around their neck for God’s blessing and to ward off vampires and werewolves. Let me know if you need help with marketing.
Today is the prayer vigil for Saeed Abedini …
Remember
pray for Saeed – yes – i heard that Iran is considering bringing new charges against him, so prayers in this case are entering into a serious spiritual war, i think – pray for a serious testimony to the power of the God who is God and worthy to be
Just as a conversation starter, and I know this will probably get some negative feedback but prayer and especially “prayer vigils” are really a mystery – especially in light of what seems to be a “feel good” but non biblical movie – War Room.
If we look at Saeed’s situation (and this is only as example and not to him in particular) are we to assume that God is holding him hostage in an Iranian jail until enough people pray for his release?
When you tell someone to join you in the prayer vigil, what are you telling them to expect?
Says in the Bible,”Men ought always to pray.”
Surfer, that seems to be my point. Since we must be disobeying that command, Saeed must remain a prisoner.
So is your expectation that when the prayer vigil hits a certain number, the prison gates will open? That seems to be the theology of the movie War Room.
MLD,
I am telling them to expect exactly what the disciples expected when they prayed for Peter’s release and he showed up ruining the meeting with his deliverance.
and I expect us to be just as,
Surprised Dread
BD @8, I like your answer. We pray because we are told to, including intercession for others. And sometimes we are surprised by God’s very direct and miraculous answers. Even when those do not occur, we still pray. We still tell Him our concerns and our desire for change to the better, whether it be healing or a release from an Iranian prison.
MLD, I can only guess War Room is one of those films that skips over the existence of 2 Corinthians 12:8-10. Over at The New Yorker Richard Brody’s complaint after having watched War Room is that the beauty of faith in practice would be more compelling if it seemed like there was real sacrifice rather than inconvenience in the story arc of the film. Not that I agree with Brody half the time (there’s no way he’s going to convince me Bayformers 4 was more fun than Mad Max Fury Road) but he’s sounded off on film War Room because, you know, that’s his thing.
Well part of my question may have been missed. Are we gathering in prayer vigil groups because we don’t think enough Christians have been praying for Saeed? If we increase in numbers, we have increased our chances of getting the desired result.
I understood your question MLD
I don’t think any of us are doing such calculations but it is a decent question.
We pray because we love God and care about this man and his suffering especially his family. Saeed has become a symbol as well as a person and via his pain we pray for others.
No one understands the mystery in prayer. We just know he invited us into that kind of relational life.
MLD, are you suggesting that believers shouldn’t gather together and pray for Saeed?
If MLD’s point is that one man’s prayers can be answered and as effective as tens of thousands….then I think that can be argued in either direction (yes or no). Elijah or the nation of Nineveh from the king down…
So how about the encouragement to a brother and his wife and children that a nation (army) of believers remembers him and though he may be forgotten by our political leaders he is not forgotten by the Body of Christ?
When someone tells me they are praying for me, I don’t say “That’s OK, I know a couple others who already are so no need to waste your time”
Well remember that I said this was not about Sawed and that I was just using him as an example at the time this movie was coming out.
When someone asks me to pray for them I do so out of comfort to them not out of any expectation that adding my voice would move God.
Steve the whole city of Nineveh needed to pray because the curse was on the whole city.
Catholics Can Be So…umm…Religious And Such…
http://shekinahfellowship.blogspot.com/2015/09/catholics-can-be-soummreligious-and-such.html
“I looked for someone among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found no one.
Ezekiel Twenty Two:Thirty
We trust in God when we have nothing else to trust to, when need drives us to him; but when we have other things to stay on, we are apt to depend too much on them.
God indeed does look for us to pray and to stand in the gap on behalf of others, essentially building up a wall of prayer.
Will He find some so occupied?
God wants us to pray – just think about that fact and then? … pray – turn your mind toward heaven (no, i don’t know where heaven is) and call, Oh God… and something may come to mind that you ought to say to Him… “help?”
i honestly don’t think He cares as much what you say as the fact that you are talking to Him…. He is not a disinterested observer – a neutral third party
MLD says: When someone asks me to pray for them I do so out of comfort to them not out of any expectation that adding my voice would move God.
Yikes
I guess well have to rewrite the whole new testament. This position is yours MLD and you own it. But I find the very opposite to be true in my own Christian experience and what scripture admonishes us to do.
I guess if you don’t have any expectations to see the kingdom come and change a situation be it whatever the need. But only comfort a person who would hear my voice in a prayer, seems absurd to me.
I don’t understand why someone would find it comforting to be prayed for if there was no hope that maybe somehow that prayer would positively change the situation.
Having said that, I’m not convinced that prayer influences God at all. For any time that a person says, “I prayed about something and God answered my prayer and the situation changed,” I’m sure you can find 100 other situations in which people prayed fervently and desperately and things did not change. The times when things work out could probably be chalked up to sheer dumb chance.
I don’t know how you reconcile the idea that God is active in the world and responds to prayers with how crappy things can be. I’ve heard stories of people who claim, “I needed a car or a new vacuum or whatever and I prayed and God provided me with a new car or a new vacuum or whatever.” Meanwhile, there are people who are struggling with infertility who pray at least as fervently if not more so for a baby than the person prayed for a car and yet are still not able to conceive and have spent years and years waiting to be approved for adoption. The idea that God would actively go out of His way to provide someone with a car or a vacuum or an appliance of some sort while not granting the prayers of the people who want to have a baby seems horrible to me–particularly because desiring to have have children is one of the more Biblically-in-line desires that a person could have whereas wanting a car isn’t one thing or the other.
Josh (and I am assuming this is a different Josh), it’s funny you should have this reaction. So what you are saying is that when ask you to pray for them or with them, that the idea is “OK, let’s add a stronger voice to the prayer. God won’t listen to me alone, perhaps he will listen to you.”
God isn’t moved by the prayer of one, but 10,000 how could he say no.
And you are right, I do own my position – it is a comfort to the other person to know someone else has joined them.
And I might add, I pray for what has been promised to me in the Bible. This is why I can pray the Lord’s Prayer myself or corporately without being disgusted as some are here claiming it to be rote or insincere – it’s promise.
But my point is that in the movie, every prayer is satisfied – no prayer is left unattended by God. You pray with enough power and with enough people – the answer is then yours.
To this I object.
I understand the comfort aspect of prayer that MLD mentioned.
During every single Bible Study that I have ever had I would place a chair in the center of the room and ask anyone who needed prayer to sit in it.
Then I would instruct everyone to gather around and pray over their them.
Some great prayers would be said and some of the people would step out in faith and prophesy over the person.
Each and every time the person would get up and mention a deep sense of peace and comfort after having been prayed over.
Some of those who were prayed over would come back the next week with testimony of answered prayer.
We called the chair time, “The love seat.”
Others would call it the, “Hot seat.”
None the less everyone experienced that deep sense of peace and comfort, always.
Whoa a nice typo, “their them.” LOL
Re: prayer comments
Any reason to disagree with what John Piper has to say here?
http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/what-do-answers-to-prayer-depend-on-part-2
Seems right to me.
i’ve always loved the thought that if i was the only person that ever lived on this earth, Christ would still have died for my redemption… but the truth is that while God loves me dearly, it is NOT all about me or mine, is it? we’re in the midst of a big cosmic drama
yet isn’t it staggering just to think that our prayers are heard and saved by the holy and most high God?
isn’t it also logical that not all of them can be answered to our satisfaction? we have to trust and let God do the editing and the timing IMHO Rev 8:1-6 … but the whole chapter is encouraging, i think
and i do agree with MLD that the Lord’s prayer is a pretty reliable fall back prayer – about as perfect a prayer as we can pray …
i think most of us have prayed, honestly from our hearts, jewels that God is saving and treasuring and we don’t even know it … in the meantime we can keep on learning and growing and developing the mind of Christ, which makes this pilgrim walk a whole lot easier to complete… IMNSHO 🙂
I cannot remember once when my own prayers for self and others have not been answered.
I have found that God’s answer may not come when we would like them and they may not be answered in the way that we would like them to be. But in retrospect, in what form and in perfect timing, in the process of waiting and then coming to accept that which I could not control, I found myself being able to rest in the answers provided. I would never want anyone to pray with or for me to just make me feel better. Prayer is powerful and sometimes it needs to be done with some form of fasting. It was be sincere and done with a genuine heart believing that nothing is impossible for Him, nor is anything too difficult. And if the answer is no, wait, or yes, it is because He knows better and in His love and concern for us, He will do accordingly, not because of what we think, but because it is in His will to do and is for our best interest and according what He had ordained before time for His good purpose in our lives.
I would not be alive today had it not been for the faithful prayers of those who are prayer warriors and even though my own faith may have been on the line, theirs were not. Thank God for those who remembered me when all other felt justified to cover up that which brought me much harm—-to the point of my very life being threatened several times by one who called himself a god fearing man.
I am so grateful for those who are faithful in keeping me in their prayers. May the Lord bless them as they diligently seek His face on my behalf.
Uriahisaliveandwell – amen to your #28 – when God hears that in itself validates the prayer whether the petition is granted or kept by Him for later
“1 When the Lamb opened uthe seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,
4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel……”
This makes me think of the unjust judge and the widow as well as the man banging on his friend’s door once the was closed for the night. Two examples of how we may need persistence in prayer.
I wouldn’t think it is too much of a stretch to extrapolate that adding to the clamor (more people praying) wouldn’t have an effect.
I also think of the story in Daniel where the archangel had to struggle with the prince of Persia (well, whom might that be but Iran ?; doubt he (prince) is anymore interested in pleasing God than he was back then, but probably just as powerful – also the seat of Satan is nearby in Pergamum), so Daniel had to keep fasting during the whole fight. This would support Paul’s contention that we war not against flesh and blood and our weapons are not carnal.
Probably better to simply pray and not question what God chooses to keep hidden. That is where our faith is necessary as we don’t know exactly what may be brought about or needs to be fought in order to free the Pastor, but we do know the prescribed method for battle (prayer).
Different Josh should change his user name to Different Josh.
Come on, man. You think there’s room enough for the two of us on this board?
I say we rumble. In the park. Midnight.
Chains and sticks only. No guns or knives.
Nice quiet weekend is over. Been outside watching the moon go red.. pretty cool event. The entire street is out trying to watch it…..
Ok Ok…Ill be Josh the Beloved.
Violence averted…for now.
Wow, I don’t know if anyone here has listened to Jack Hibbs from a CC somewhere – but he could be the poster boy for The Cross is God’s Plan B theology (or called dispensationalism in some circles 😉 )
I am listening to him discuss “replacement theology” and talking as if that’s what we call ourselves. But then he says, and I have been saying this for years that dispensationalist refuse to interpret the OT by the NT – when he or his guest makes the point that the OT is a Jewish book and must be read through Jewish eyes and not as we (amils) do read the OT through the lens of the NT.
OK, I am going back in to see if I can stomach the rest.
OK, not too bad – they went all the way to the last 4min before the comparison to Joseph Goebbels was used. I’ve seen it thrown in the first 4 min at times, so these guys used restraint.